mozz,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Most people get impossible to "work with" if you force them out of their homes and start randomly killing their family and friends whenever you feel like

Hamas is a corrupt and violent organization, and I won't defend their murder and rape of the innocent any more than I would Israel's. But only one party to the conflict has such an overwhelming military advantage that they're able to (and do) kill with impunity, and one particular party created the conflict in the first place by seizing land and resources from some people who had no earthly reason to have any type of feeling one way or another towards them before that all happened. Feels unfair to assign much responsibility at all to the other party given all that as background to the situation.

Tar_alcaran,

one particular party created the conflict in the first place by seizing land and resources from some people who had no earthly reason to have any type of feeling one way or another towards them before that all happened.

Great Britain?

MaggiWuerze,

He’s out of line, but he’s right

TwoBeeSan,

It’s always a good time to shit on the British.

draneceusrex,

Lol

HelixDab2,

So, Hamas killed 1500 non-combatants on 6 October, right?

And Israel has killed about 34,000 people in Gaza so far, at least 15,000 of them children, with a total of over 27,000 non-combatants killed by Israeli forces?

Someone tell me again who is supposed to be the better side here?

I dunno man, if someone shot my dad, and said that he was just between them and their target, I’m pretty sure that wouldn’t make me feel warm-and-fuzzy about them shooting my dad.

sugar_in_your_tea,

Both sides are wrong here, though Israel is more wrong. But that doesn’t make Hamas right, it just means we should condemn Israel harder than Hamas.

I’m not rooting for anyone here, I’m just hoping it will end. But unfortunately there isn’t much I can do about it.

MaggiWuerze,

it just means we should condemn Israel harder than Hamas

Not even that, I just hold a country that claims to be a modern democracy to higher standards than some dudes living in tunnels

HelixDab2,

I have a hard time condemning Hamas, given that they’ve seen their land stolen for three generations now while the world did nothing, and they’ve seen three generations of Israel indiscriminately killing them. When they protest peacefully, they are ignored. When they riot, they’re murdered. When they try to fight back–and yes, that includes acts of terrorism–they’re bombed indiscriminately.

What’s the right thing for them to do? How should they act in order to regain the land that was stolen from them by Israelis?

Is asking for their land, that was taken by violence from their parents and grandparents, to be returned to them unreasonable? And, TBH, people in the US have a hard time addressing this because we did exactly the same things to Native Americans.

sugar_in_your_tea,

IDK, I don’t have a hard time condemning Hamas. As soon as you target non-combatants, you lose all sympathy from me. And yes, that goes for Israel as well.

What’s the right thing for them to do?

Reject Hamas and form a peaceful government to demonstrate they can keep the terrorist factions at bay. Then appeal to the UN for negotiations to happen.

You have a lot more chips at the bargaining table if you’re not murdering the citizens of the country you’re negotiating with.

Is asking for their land… unreasonable?

Absolutely not! I have a lot of sympathy for the Palestinians and believe they have a lot of justified claims that need to be addressed.

That said, it’s a very different situation than in the US because it’s much more recent for Palestinians. The native tribes were displaced almost 200 years ago so nobody alive actually remembers it, therefore reparations, imo, have passed the statute of limitations. The state of Israel was created less than 100 years ago, so the Palestinians alive today are absolutely directly impacted.

I have my own opinions about how things should be settled, but that’s honestly not for me to decide, that’s between the Israelis, Palestinians, and any relevant coalitions of nations (UN and perhaps the Arab League). At the very least, non-Israelis need to have direct access to East Jerusalem, and it should probably not be directly under Israeli control.

HelixDab2,

Reject Hamas and form a peaceful government

First: they had one. Hamas was funded by Israel in order to siphon votes away from their democratically elected gov’t that was gaining significant international support. (Remember Yassar Arafat, that guy that won a Nobel Peace Prize for trying to negotiate…?) Since Hamas took power, there has not been an election in Gaza. Even if they wanted to, Palestinians don’t have the ability to form a new gov’t. But even if they did, Netanyahu et al. have said that they aren’t going to negotiate, and have rejected *all Palestinian demands.

They literally have nothing to bargain with. Violence is the only tool that they have left.

The native tribes were displaced almost 200 years ago so nobody alive actually remembers it,

That is so very, very not true. Abuse of Native Americans was happening through the 80s (!!!) , and it was only very recently that they were permitted to speak their own languages, preserve their culture, and so on. Don’t you remember the whole pipeline thing that Native Americans were protesting because it took yet more of their land? This shit is happening NOW, and we-like the Israelis–ignore it.

sugar_in_your_tea,

Yassar Arafat

Yeah, he was way better than Hamas. I can’t condone the attack on Khartoum, but Arafat turned it around and denounced terrorism, recognized Israel’s right to exist, and sought peace.

Here’s what I’d like to see:

  • UN pressure Israel to give the West Bank more autonomy - they’re currently doing the opposite
  • Israel open a corridor for Palestinians to evacuate to the West Bank, in coordination with the West Bank (i.e. West Bank helps in screening and sets limits)
  • move toward recognition of the West Bank as Palestine, with internationally recognized claims to Gaza

But I doubt that’s going to happen, at least right now with Israel.

Abuse of Native Americans was happening through the 80s (!!!)

Yes, and that’s what discussions should be around: actual harms experienced by living people today.

Yet the conversion tends to be muddied by things that happened a long time ago. So it’s often punishing the current generation for things their ancestors (or people completely unrelated to them) did. The same goes for other minorities, though those have very different claims compared to native tribes.

I have opinions on how to move forward here, but it’s very different from what to do about what’s happening to Palestinians today.

HelixDab2,

You see the problem, right? With Israel working to oust Arafat and get extremists like Hamas in power in Gaza? Israel is creating their own monster, and then killing civilians indiscriminately when they fight the monster they’ve created.

Hamas is absolutely a bad guy here, but Israel’s actions, and their death toll, is far, far worse by an order of magnitude.

TheMightyCanuck,
@TheMightyCanuck@sh.itjust.works avatar

Most rational zionist poster 😵‍💫

Israel is a genocidal state that deserves mockery and shame

natural_motions,
SeattleRain,

Yeah, trying to stop Israel’s 70 year genocide against Palestinians is so stooopid amirite guies.

mindbleach,

Hamas nails the formula for a classic villain: legitimate grievance, insane solution. Like I dunno what the fuck they expected to happen after the attack in January. We’re all shocked by the length and severity of Israel’s response, but not the fact it happened, or the fact it happened to hospitals.

deegeese,

Hamas is Netanyahu’s hand-picked opposition.

Israel undermines any peaceful Palestinian leadership as a means of prolonging their ability to commit genocide with impunity.

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

I don't think "There are terrorists among you" is really a justification for apartheid.

natural_motions,

The sound of gunfire crackled over the phone as the teenage girl hid in the car and spoke. An Israeli tank was near the vehicle as she and her family were trying to heed Israel’s call to evacuate their home in Gaza.

Israeli troops were firing on the car, the teen said in terrified calls to relatives and emergency services. Everyone in the vehicle was killed except her and her 5-year-old female cousin, Hind, she said.

“They are shooting at us,” 15-year-old Layan told the Palestinian Red Crescent. “The tank is next to me.”

And then there was a burst of gunfire. She screamed and fell silent.

That call on Jan. 29 began a desperate rescue attempt by medics with the Palestinian Red Crescent, one of many during the war in Gaza. But after the organization sent an ambulance, it lost contact with the crew.

On Saturday, 12 days later, the ambulance was discovered, blackened and destroyed.

The two medics were dead. The Palestinian Red Crescent accused Israeli forces of targeting the ambulance as it pulled up near the family’s vehicle. The organization said it had coordinated the journey with Israeli forces as in the past.

apnews.com/…/gaza-israel-palestinians-war-ambulan…

This is what you’re supporting (you too, mods). Fuck genocide apologists.

Semi-Hemi-Demigod,
Semi-Hemi-Demigod avatar

The IRA could teach them a thing or two about insurgency.

Milk_Sheikh,

The IRA lost according to the goals they set themselves, Ireland is still partitioned. And the modern remnant and splinter groups are closer to drug trafficking gangs than militant resistance.

What can be learned from that conflict is how the state should act, especially when operating inside non and semi-permissive territory - any atrocities your forces commit will set back your goals, and fuel support for extremist actors.

Mikufan,

True.

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