NutellaIs4Lvrs,

I’m not sure about other states, but the one I live in usually requires two brain death tests at least 6 hours apart and by different MDs that have to be credentialed to perform brain death testing. They also have(and usually perform) an apnea test where they turn the ventilator off for a set period of time and see if the patient initiates any breathes on their own as well as measuring blood gases before and after the procedure. Finally, they often use an injected nucleotide to measure blood flow to the brain, taking multiple images of several angles to confirm that there is no blood flowing to the brain.

If the person was on any paralytics, they have to be cleared from the system before testing can begin as well as all labs such as sodium, potassium, etc. and body temperature must be within normal parameters to begin.

If all those things are confirmed, the person is legally declared dead with an official time of death and only then can the legal next of kin be approached for organ donation.

Basically, this person is bonkers(as we all know) and organ donation is highly regulated.

thefartographer,

During this process their heart rate and blood pressure increase substantially.

Ok, but by how much? I’m a registered organ donor and am now concerned that, as I lay paralyzed and semi-conscious with no brain activity while my organs are butchered out of me, the nurse is then gonna be like, “oh no, his heart rate and blood pressure is increasing substantially!”

See, if you’re gonna tear my organs out of me in my nightmare state, I want it to be a challenge! You gotta be fast and precise before my blood pressure and pulse explosively increase and I blow out cascades of blood, turning into a sanguineous Water Wiggle. It’s gotta be like a game of Perfection that you either harvest everything in time, or my body explodes.

TranscendentalEmpire,

Ok, but by how much? I’m a registered organ donor and am now concerned that, as I lay paralyzed and semi-conscious with no brain activity while my organs are butchered out of me, the nurse is then gonna be like, “oh no, his heart rate and blood pressure is increasing substantially!”

Well for one, you have to have brain function to remain semi-conscious. And part of the way they determine if you are brain dead is seeing if you have any cerebral blood flow. No cerebral blood flow, no consciousness.

Secondly, people without brain function are incapable of controlling their own blood pressure or heart beat. So any increase in heartbeat or blood pressure is being induced by the anesthesiologist to combat the drop in blood pressure from blood loss.

skydivekingair,

First you missed the point of that post.

Second, people with brain function can’t control their blood pressure. If they could we wouldn’t need BP meds. Unless your name is Dwight or Dennis.

TranscendentalEmpire,

First you missed the point of that post.

I’m not sure if the post really has a point… I was just explaining how the original post didn’t really make any sense medically.

Second, people with brain function can’t control their blood pressure. If they could we wouldn’t need BP meds.

I mean, they can. Unless you believe something other than your cns is controlling your autonomic functions…

Most people can’t consciously control their blood pressure, but blood pressure is controlled by your cns, that is unless you are brain dead.

skydivekingair,

The way I read the OP was a joke about being a ticking blood bomb when being an organ donor.

thefartographer,

Your second statement is almost correct and then fully wrong, followed by 100% correct. Let’s go sentence by sentence.

people with brain function can’t control their blood pressure

Sure you can! But only to a degree. If you’ve got access to a blood pressure cuff, try these things yourself: sitting, standing, while eating, holding your breath at the beginning, holding your breath at the end, holding your breath the entire time (legendary mode), while incredibly thirsty, after drinking water, while petting a dog, while getting bit by a dog (don’t actually do this), or while watching a scary movie.

Even positive and negative emotions can alter your blood pressure. While these types of things can’t cure someone with congenital heart disease, there are numerous anecdotes of people’s health improving after leaving a stressful job.

You’re correct, though, in terms of making sudden and significant changes to your BP requires more than just a positive thought and a new position. Sometimes you need some medication or substantial life changes to illicit real change. But to TranscendentalEmpire’s point, your brain absolutely plays a role in regulating your blood pressure. If someone is completely brain dead, they have nothing to close the feedback loop that tells the body “whoa! Heart rate is going up, we’re definitely fleeing from a predator! Increase blood pressure now, dammit!

If they could we wouldn’t need BP meds

This is like saying “if people could swim we wouldn’t need boats.” Some people could control their BP by consuming less salt or by not clogging their arteries with cholesterol but they’d rather continue impacting their health and just takes meds to deal with it. Just like how some people would rather be on a boat instead of in the water.

Some people are born with or naturally develop heart disease and need medication to deal with it. Just like how some people can’t swim and need something to carry them across water.

Some people, like me, have made poor health choices and found out later in life that they have a congenital heart disease, and then they get a number of different medications including BP pills. This isn’t that different than someone who can swim but fell into the water with their clothes on and are starting to get tired so they need a boat to rescue them.

Unless your name is Dwight or Dennis

Fact. This is 100% true.

skydivekingair,

Thank you for the very thorough run down!

thefartographer,

Well, that anesthesiologist better get some more dilithium crystals or start diverting power, cuz I wanna go all in on these thrusters!

superfes,

If I’m so injured they’re not sure I’ll make it, but they can save someone else with my organs, please do that.

Yeesh.

captainlezbian,

What is an hour of agony while I’m already suffering and dying to added years of reduced pain to someone who isn’t dying anymore. I don’t know what all I owe my fellow humans, but I know they deserve that.

HelixDab2,

I think it’s more like, so injured that you won’t make it. If it was a coin flip for someone’s survival, then it would be basically murder to take someone’s organs.

thefartographer,

The original news article has since been archived, but there was a horrifying case in 2007 where EMS in my hometown arrived at an accident for which they were unprepared because dispatch had mislabeled it as low-speed crash. There were 4 occupants in the vehicle, and, according to the fired EMT’s family, the front passenger was so badly injured that pieces of her brain were on the dashboard and she was unresponsive. The ill-equipped team worked to get the other three occupants out of the car and get them to the hospital and ended up assumed that someone on the crew had taken the presumed-dead passenger’s pulse.

As a result, a tarp was thrown over her body and she was taken away to the morgue where the coroner eventually discovered that she’d died due to her injuries rather than upon impact. All four of the emergency responders faced disciplinary action and I believe the family of the deceased won a lawsuit against the city.

The bottom line, and to your point, there are very strict guidelines and a lot of red tape before you get to say someone is “close enough to dead” to start carving out their organs.

blanketswithsmallpox,

Hood said the four paramedics were in the 21st hour of a 24-hour shift that began the previous day.

The ridiculous way we run 24 hour emergency services across the world is beyond dumb. How we get away with making EMS, Fire, and Healthcare work 12-24 hour shifts is beyond me.

10 hours is already stretching it with police (unions OP) or other professions like Security.

Yeah, non-police can sleep if they’re in a suburb. Until I see data that people running 24 hour shifts vs running classic 1/2/3rd shifts is better on their health, I’m forever going to doubt.

Alas, there’s no chance we’re mandating no working 2nd and 3rd shifts until we’re practically in a utopia already. The secret toll it takes on people is criminal without proper pay.

After 22 years, researchers found that the women who worked on rotating night shifts for more than five years were up to 11% more likely to have died early compared to those who never worked these shifts. In fact, those working for more than 15 years on rotating night shifts had a 38% higher risk of dying from heart disease than nurses who only worked during the day. Surprisingly, rotating night shifts were also linked to a 25% higher risk of dying from lung cancer and 33% greater risk of colon cancer death. The increased risk of lung cancer could be attributed to a higher rate of smoking among night shift workers, says Schernhammer.

time.com/3657434/night-work-early-death/

PopMyCop,

Just want to point out, many, or even most, police work 12 hour shifts as well.

The second thing I want to point out is that many of these workers want shifts like that. Having to work (depending on your schedule) a 2/2/5/5 or a 3/4/4/3 is seen as a nice thing. I know people in all three of the public service front-facing jobs, and they would fight you if you (as a city council member or something) proposed to change the scheduling from a 12 to an 8.

The third thing is that rotating shifts suck. I worked one where we switched ever 3-4 weeks, and that was like gargling monkey balls as you try to wake up for that first day shift, or stay awake on that first night shift. I can definitely see how those can contribute to death and dying. Conversely, when I worked straight nights for two years, I never really had issues. Long term, maybe, but the article you linked even mentions that it’s the rotations specifically that make it bad.

Oh, and the fourth thing. Suburb or not, sleep is rare. I can probably number the number of times a night let you have more than 1-3 hours of sleep in the low scores, whether I was in urban, suburban, or bum-fuck rural (and I’ve done all three, at least 3 years each now). People are always ill, dying, or getting into trouble.

blanketswithsmallpox,

The point isn’t to work more homie. It’s to work 32 hours by hiring more professionals at 40 hours of pay. A shift is great until you realize what you should be working in 24/7/365 jobs simply because your employer or the citizens don’t want to pay for what your job truly entails.

You can complain about fighting their set schedules, but that’s the entire point of my comment, even if you glossed over the fact that 2nd and 3rd shifts are going to send you to an early grave regardless of shift hopping.

32 hour work weeks. Rotate days off but stay on your shift. If you work 2nd or 3rd, you absolutely require more pay. Chances are you’re going to die 5-10 years younger than your contemporaries. Hire more to cover the gaps without decreasing total pay. This is the way.

Now getting people to suck it up with taxes is another whole can of worms lol.

TexasDrunk,

I ride motorcycles. When I was young I heard them referred to as “organ donation machines” because Texas doesn’t have a helmet law and in any kind of real crash you’re gonna be at least braindead (I do wear a helmet now, but didn’t in my misspent youth).

They were trying to talk me out of riding. All they really did was convince me to register as a donor.

PopMyCop,

No, no. You gotta use the real medical terms. Riders are “organ donors,” and the bikes are “angel makers.”

Illuminostro,

Well, that helmet won’t always save you. My first cousin died in a motorcycle crash of a broken neck. Otherwise, he didn’t have a scratch on him. Be safe out there.

9point6,

loses brain function

can feel pain

X to doubt

Cqrd,

The person who posted this is a solid example of such a case

son_named_bort,

That would imply they had brain function to begin with.

saltesc,

I’m more on this part…

becomes unconscious

I have 9 surgeries in my life and I’m wondering how hollow I am now.

thesporkeffect,

Just thwack yourself with a mallet in a few places and listen for an echo. Simple as

acetanilide,

More echos= better health

Scubus,

I’ve got some batch file viruses that would disagree

ma11en,

X for conspiracy!

pinkdrunkenelephants,

So is there any evidence of that insane claim, or…?

zwaetschgeraeuber,

The elite is deleting all evidence, but he saw a youtube video from a random guy. That should be proof enough

pinkdrunkenelephants,

No doctor whistleblowers or families of victims or anything. No effort at all.

DrDominate,
@DrDominate@lemmy.world avatar

Just enterfaining this insane theory. Surely a spike in heart rate and blood pressure would be short lived as a substantial loss of blood right? At what point would there be no more pain from shock? Shortly after a major organ is removed? Anyway, where do people come up with these crazy theories…

phoenixz,

Why are there so many people with the desire to make up stupid fantasy stories? This is an obvious example, somebody had to invent this, and write it down, and it’s a guarantee that a few idiots will pick this up and run with it, they’ll repost it to multiple places, they’ll add their own fantasy elements to it to make it even worse, and they too will find an audience.

It’s painful to watch how much good is being destroyed by these assholes.

Is it just a snowflake in need of attention issue? Is it a mental disorder issue? It causes way too much damage in our society

Illuminostro,

Narcissism. They want to feel they know something you don’t, and they want attention for saying it.

some_guy,

You know, that’s exactly right. When I had to have heart surgery, they put me out. In fact, I asked the doc if they could sedate me early cause I was anxious, and he said sure. I woke up with no heart, not eyes, no liver, you get it. How I’ve been able to survive since is a fucking miracle. I’m like a living zombie.

Give me back my organs, gubment!

These people are hilarious except for the part where they vote.

cosmicrookie, (edited )
@cosmicrookie@lemmy.world avatar

All this got me thinking if one could turn abortion into organ donation and work around the abortion bans that are picking up across the US

michaelmrose,

To plays devil’s advocate there are inconsistent standards of what constitutes dead many established decades ago and whereas some folks are obviously by any standard a potato others including by standards they themselves elect are defunct in ways that we understand far less eg not able to initiate breathing on their own or not capable of regaining consciousnesses. Due to our lack of complete understanding there have been cases in which people were taken off the ventilator to die and spontaneously started breathing. EG our original analysis was obviously incomplete.

What is experienced if anything by those near or even post official death is also an interesting open question. Experiments involving flooding pig heads dead for > 1 hour with oxygenated liquid have shown some sign of electrical activity in cells for instance. We don’t even know what the subjective experience of people being operated on really is other than obviously NORMALLY they don’t consciously form memories or have control of their faculties.

All of that said organ transplants save so many lives and it is a voluntary process. If you have any concerns whatsoever you ought to think hard about it and make your wishes expressly known rather than blanket shutting the door on saving those lives. I am an organ donor. I have faith in my family to make intelligent decisions if I’m not able to make them.

PopMyCop,

NORMALLY they don’t consciously form memories or have control of their faculties

And remember, those two states (not being able to form memories AND not having control of faculties) can be, and sometimes are, two different drugs. It’s why you have the horror stories of people remembering waking up on the surgery table, but being unable to move.

medgremlin,

I’ve worked in ERs before and am somewhat familiar with the process they use for determining brain death. There was a child that came in with catastrophic brain damage, and the process to determine that the child was in a permanent vegetative state was quite extensive. There were multiple evaluation by neurologists and neurosurgeons via MRI and EEG over the course of multiple days to verify a lack of brain function. It’s not something that is determined in the moment. The decision made in the ER is whether or not the organs will be donated because it can make some differences in the life-support care during the brain death determination process.

JustZ,

Verified user.

What a joke that system is.

If had magic wand, everyone would have a single internet login, tied to their real identity. They can still post anonymously, but then it has to be anonymous, no username, no clout.

Anticorp,

It’s a pretty good system for figuring out who the rubes are.

Godric,

For some reason I doubt JustZ is your full legal name. You aren’t putting your proverbial money where your mouth is, eh bud?

JustZ,

That’s true I am not. I would if I had to though.

indepndnt,

You got 'em there, Godric.

Godric,

Am I advocating we attach our real life identities to our shitposts?

kautau,

Idk I think he’s a Godric in real life too

Simulation6,

Somebody during the French revolution was interested in whether the guillotined heads would respond in some way, so he called them by name. Some did.

Anticorp,

I read that to be extra cruel, they’d pick the severed head up and show it the body. That way if you remained conscious for a little while after your head is cut off, the last thing you’ll see is the horror of your headless body.

remotelove,

Here is a collection of stories for y’all to enjoy: mikedashhistory.com/…/some-experiments-with-sever…

BonesOfTheMoon,

Fascinating.

MenacingPerson,

Fasces-nating (I know that’s Italian, close enough)

gedaliyah,
@gedaliyah@lemmy.world avatar

In a very rigid sense of being composed living tissue, yes - you are alive during organ donation in most cases. In the sense of being a human being or really even an organism… less so.

If I cut off my arm, the tissue would continue to metabolize for a few minutes (?) but I wouldn’t exactly argue for its right to vote.

TheFriar,

ARM SUFFRAGE

JustZ,

Even arms know you don’t take babies from their mother’s arms.

TheFriar,

Right for arms to bear votes.

indepndnt,

I also vote for this guy’s arm.

Pratai,

Hilarious!

August27th,

The author knows this is true because that’s how their brain got removed. 🙄

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