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flossdaily, in Roseanne is batshit insane.

Roseanne is just one of many examples of awful people getting called out for being awful, and then running to the hard right, where not only is their awful behavior ignored, it’s actually embraced.

Elon Musk is the gold standard of this, and of course, Donald Trump practically invented it.

Fascism is an ideology that rewards people for being the worst version of themselves.

Roseanne might have corrected course after her racist tweet had the right wing not embraced her.

This is why MAGA Republicans are a cancer. Their hatred spreads and consumes.


Newt Gingrich and Dennis Hastert have entered the chat.

arquebus_x, (edited ) in Remember: the real reason Elon Musk bought Twitter was to influence the 2024 election & stop any kind of leftist organizing on the site

The reply to that comment is much more likely to be true, though. Elon Musk is not playing 26-D chess. He's not playing 4D chess. He's not playing chess. He's not playing checkers, or even Chutes & Ladders. He's playing Candyland. He's not thinking more than 1/10th of a move ahead, and more often than not, he's thinking 2 moves behind.

His consistency in his behavior with Twitter (in terms of left/right bias) is not down to any kind of planning or forethought, it's just that he behaves in ways that conform to his worldview whenever the opportunity presents itself. It looks like planning because it's consistent and because there's no friction involved in implementing his desires (since he's the final arbiter of what happens at Twitter, and he has no one around him willing to tell him he's making bad decisions).

Elon Musk is an emotionally dysregulated rich man whose college level education did not actually stick. That's all. There's nothing more nefarious or supervillainous about it. He's just a lonely moron with money.


There may be a lot of truth to that… but I find it hard not to counter such thoughts against his achievements with Tesla and SpaceX. The man gets shit done (and is late for a lot of other stuff too, granted). Still, there are not many other CEOs of recent times with such drive and such vision that have been able to execute on such grand schemes, and actually, for the most part, succeed.


You’re prolly going to get shit on here if you think Tesla is “his” achievement.

I didn’t downvote but a lot of people think he bought clout with his Founder title after investing in the company.

Since, you know… he wasn’t a founder.

Edit: yes, I know the argument of his contributions being in the marketing, and and and…. that still doesn’t make him a Founder.


TIL… there are still people around who think Phony Stark has ever “achieved” anything.

dmention7, in There is no such thing as "unskilled labor"

Except it’s literally just an economics term referring to positions that can be reasonably learned through on the job training with little or no prior experience.

Stuff like this just muddies and distracts the conversation from the true issue, which is that those jobs deserve a living wage.


You’ve literally just described every job that exists everywhere. It’s a bullshit term to other and denigrate certain groups.


Lol sure. Are you ready to be an architect or a biochemist or an ironworker or a paramedic?


After a decent apprenticeship, a lot of people would.


An apprenticeship is enough to be a biochemist? Lmao go touch some grass.


Training is training regardless of how you receive it isn’t it? Perhaps you should take your own advice.


An unskilled job can be learned in an afternoon. That’s the difference.


Said someone who’s never mastered it. I have a college education myself. And work in IT. I’m just not that much of an egoist to disrespect people like you do. I’ve met truly skilled and great people doing menial jobs and not being compensated enough. You wouldn’t last a week at most of these jobs. You feel you could master in an afternoon. Simply because you’d be dealing with people like yourself.


I don’t know why you think calling something an unskilled job is more derogatory than a menial job.

But can anyone learn your job in an afternoon? No.

You can replace a factory line worker with literally almost any human, you can’t be replaced by anyone who doesn’t have a background in IT, at least without months or years of training.

That’s not ego it’s just reality.

It doesn’t mean they don’t deserve a living wage. But if you’re gushing about how everyone is a skilled laborer while talking to someone who makes 1/10th what you do they’re probably going to think you’re a dick.


No one is claiming that it’s not possible to hone your floorsweeping skills over the course of 50 years and become a sweeper yoda. What they are saying though, is that the difference between the yoda and the apprentice is neglibile from a customers perspective. That’s just factual, if the apprentice wasn’t good enough for the average client, the yodas would be in high demand and be able to set their own rates, thus becoming skilled labor.


How can they set their own rates when the company makes that decision?

Even highly skilled jobs have pay controlled by the company. There are those who can set their rates, but most are at the mercy of their employer’s decisions.

A teacher is a highly skilled job and gets insufficient pay. They can’t set their own rates and get poor pay even though they are critical for the continuation of society.


Because if your employer doesn’t pay what you’re worth to other employers, you go to those other employers.

It’s easier than ever to see what jobs are worth as many locations require employers to publish salary bands or hourly rate right on the internet. You can find all the jobs near you that are similar and compare pay without so much as going on an interview.


Where is a teaching job “worth it”? Should we all puck up and move to a hogher-payong district?

Who will teach the children? That’s an employer problem. They need to compensate us better. People can’t just pick up and move. And it isn’t the people’s fault that everything is getting more expensive while pay is rising at a snail’s pace.

A teacher’s pay is set on paper. You can see exactly how much we get with a Google search. No wiggle room.

stevehobbes, (edited )

A couple of things. First off, teaching is unique - every public school I’m aware of is unionized. Which is to say there is a collective bargain between the workers and the district. Teachers have far more say in their pay than non-union employees.

Secondly, they can go teach in private schools if they pay more or change careers if they think they can get paid more or have a better quality of life doing something else.

Or they can simply try to get people to vote down their next CBA if they think they aren’t paid enough and force the district to pay more.

Third, I never said anything is “worth it”, but the calculus for teachers is different. The CBA getting voted on by the teachers means your compensation is heavily backloaded towards end of career and retirement. You also have significantly better benefit plans than private sector jobs, because that’s what the union membership voted for.

You can retire in most school districts after 20 years and get paid 2/3rds of your salary for life. Good luck doing that in the private sector. Which is why you’ll also probably get paid less than other jobs with comparable skill sets over those 20 years.


That doesn’t answer my question of who will teach students if the solution is to go to a higher-paying job? The next person hired will find the same money problems and then move to a hogher-paying job. The next… and then there is no one.

Students in this poor area will have inconsistent teachers, unmotivated teachers, or no teachers. What then?

Teacher’s unions are something, and definitely a positive. But with all of the unpaid overtime (grading papers at home, formulating lesson plans, creating visuals, etc), it’s still laughable. We got about a 4% raise while our insurance premiums rose by more than 50%. And the cost of living has risen dramatically. The union’s negotiated raise really just covers new expenses. No raise at all really. A pay cut for some.

Legally, we are not allowed to strike. We depend on the union’s negotiations, and I don’t get any voting power other than electing some reps. Maybe I voice my opinion at a meeting or through email, but that’s it.

If I don’t stay with the district for 30 years (30, not 20, for my district), I don’t get retirement benefits. So, moving to a higher paying district fucks my retirement. I’m trapped. Better pay now, or suffer for some pay promise in the future. Promises that keep changing…

Just because teachers get some pretty sweet benefits doesn’t mean it isn’t enough to live a comfortable life. If someone has it worse than me, does that mean my problems don’t matter? No.


The school districts will start paying more money, that’s how this works. It takes a while, there will be short term shortages before school districts renegotiate the CBA and a lag before more college kids get teaching certificates.

Or states will lower the requirements to be teachers, and hire less qualified teachers, and more middle-and-above income households will send their kids to private or charter schools.

You have a lot more power in the union than you think - at least collectively. The people you elect negotiate the CBA. And then you get to vote on that CBA. Convince your peers to vote no next time until you get a better contract.

Legally prevented from striking… what does that even mean. If you strike they can fire you? If you’re going to quit anyway, who cares? Lots of states (37) make it unlawful for public employees to strike. They do it anyway. And win.

Or don’t, and find a new job.

Teacher salaries suck - but they also sucked 5, 10 and 20 years ago too.


The school districts won’t pay more. That’s why we have a union. The districts would happily not give us raises if we didn’t have people fighting for us. If they agreed to a measly 4%, that’s the most they were willing to give.

Give me a CEO raise please.

And yes. If we strike, we can be fired.

Why does teachers salaries sucking 5, 10, 20 years ago have anything to do with this? Are you telling me to suck it up?

stevehobbes, (edited )

I’m telling you that you shouldn’t be surprised it’s the way it is. Because it was this way when you started.

Every union seems to do this - they backload pay and benefits. It happens to pilots (until the most recent CBA rounds) and flight attendants too. They get paid literally almost nothing and have to share rooms with 4 other people until they’ve gotten 10-20 years in, in which case they start making pretty decent money.

Teachers are the same. They vote for you to make $30,000/yr with shitty raises, but at 30 years in you’re making $100k/year and will retire with $66k/year for the rest of your life in addition to social security.

Adjusted slightly based on district.

It’s always been like this and you knew it when you started.

Sure, try to improve it and make it better - but don’t act surprised like it’s new.

If only everyone got CEO raises, too bad not everyone is a CEO.


I wasn’t acting surprised. I thought we were having a discussion about moving to a new place for higher wages and how it wasn’t sustainable using teaching as an example.

I’m not sure the direction you’ve gone.

Telling me “I knew what I was getting into” is a null excuse. Yea, I knew the pay. I want to teach. I deal with the shit pay because it’s all I can get. Because “I knew the pay was insufficient”, I’m unwise to have become a teacher?

That is a very misdirected excuse that districts completely from the fact the jobs dont pay enough in the first place.


I don’t understand the need to dogpile on someone who is simply stating that jobs needn’t be divided by skill because all jobs need skills. Racking hay and stacking it up is a skill. Picking and sorting the good from the bad fruit or veggies is a skill. Interacting with mean and disrespectful people who couldn’t care less about your feelings and pretending to be friendly is a skill. Flipping burgers before someone yells at you for taking more than two minutes is a skill.

Obviously, their argument with the biochemist was wrong, and they were misguided, but why the need to pray on their downfall? It’s useless to divide jobs, because they all have skills.


No shit, the apprenticeship is the exact thing we claim makes a difference.

We can argue where exactly we should draw the line: Is a two year apprenticeship required to qualify as skilled labor? Or is 6 months enough already? Maybe even a one month training course can be considered enough to learn a skill. But the fact is that some jobs require more training than others. And this distinction is worth making in some situations.

I worked in unskilled Labor before, a few minutes teaching so I know what to do, maybe two hours supervised to make sure I don’t fuck up and that’s it.


I’ll keep my surgeons having gone to med school tyvm


They literally used to apprentice them. They still could. They don’t but they could.


Do you want a 19th century surgeon?


If I were in the 19th century? Sure. We could still train them that way today even with all the knowledge we now have. It’s only the knowledge that’s outmoded. Not the method of training.


The method of training has severe deficiencies including the absence of standardization. Also surgeons still have apprenticeship they just have to go to med school first


The current method of training has severe deficiencies as well. Often saddling people with 6 to 7 figures of debt. And in the medical field specifically having them work shifts defined by people originally hopped up on meth and cocaine. I’d take a well rested and healthy surgeon any day over one that’s sleep/stress/drug addled.

Oh and there were literal trade groups that set basic standards most times. Listen it’s your prerogative if you want to argue training isn’t training. It isn’t a very defensible position however.


I don’t disagree that education should be free or at least affordable and at a reasonable pace, but I also stand by the position that an academic portion and institutional training are better than a training program without it.

But also you’ve moved from no such thing as skilled labor to adamantly defending apprenticeship which is a form of skilled labor training. Nobody who apprenticed is unskilled labor.


What data do you have to prove that? I get that you believe it. That doesn’t make something true. Institutional educations can still vary considerably. As could apprenticeships. Standardization and accreditation are things external to both of them.

No I haven’t. I simply pointed out that many people lack the skills for so called unskilled labor. And how it’s largely derisive negative bullshit used to minimize and “other” people. Labor is labor. Every person should be able to support themselves via their labor in our society. If you work hard and specialize in a field. Your reward/payment is people’s gratitude, respect, and defference as a subject matter expert. Don’t get me wrong. As I said, surgeons, engineers etc etc etc deserve respect as anyone does for their work. But who do you think would be missed more if they suddenly disappeared one day. All the highly specialized educated people or all the unskilled labor? Think about it carefully in the context of all of human history. I’m not saying that so-called highly skilled labor doesn’t help make society better. All labor does.


Mate everyone here agrees with you on that even entry level jobs should pay enough to pay rent, but that’s not any kind of argument for your claim.

Unskilled/entry level (whatever you wanna call it) is just simply that, minimal requirements to get started. And (almost) all labor is valuable, no one is arguing against that.

Go have a sip of tea, read through your own messages and try understand where you went wrong.

Have a good ${TIME_OF_THE_DAY}


At what fucking point did I say or imply that they shouldn’t be compensated with a living wage? I’ve done unskilled labor, I’ve done high skilled labor. I think everyone even those unable to labor should be able to sleep indoors, have reasonable financial security, and all the other basic shit. I just also think that some labor should require a formal education because my current labor is strongly assisted by my formal education.

Your arguments have been all over the place and you’re arguing against people who aren’t taking the positions you insist we are. I’m a fucking communist. I don’t think engineers and physicians need to seize the means of production, but all of labor and yeah that includes retail workers.

And yeah many people do lack the skills to do a lot of unskilled labor, but it’s the difference between a week of training and a few years of training. And that’s fine, some really important things are difficult for reasons other than knowing out how to do them.


A lot of jobs can’t be learnt on the fly. They either need prior training, or significant on the job or prior to work training. Those jobs will, by their nature earn a premium (basic supply and demand).

There will always be low skill jobs, and that’s ok. The issue is that they are now so poorly paid that you can’t survive on them.

E.g. an office janitor is an unskilled job. It’s easy to get a new person up to speed on-the-fly. A janitor on a medical ward is low skilled. They require more training, but it can be on the job. Cleaning a surgery theatre is a skilled job. It requires a significant baseline of knowledge to do it right. This requires off the job training.

None are bad jobs, and all should be paid well enough to live on. However, the more specialist roles should also earn more, since they have higher requirements.


So you’re saying training isn’t training? That’s a bold claim. Can you prove it?

And if you think an office janitor is an unskilled job. You’ve never met many good custodians. It’s easy for anyone to go into any field and do a shit job. But whether or not you acknowledge it. Being good at something takes skill regardless of what it is. Even the migrants picking fruit in American fields are highly skilled. Or are you telling me that in less than a single season or week you could match or better them?


I think you’ve forgotten about pilots and surgeons and such… not exactly OJT material.


I think you made a non-sequitur. They never said anything about that. Simply pointed out how all jobs require knowledge and training of some sort to be good at them. Perhaps in the future you should debate in good faith and not create straw men to push a false narrative.

Abnorc, (edited )

You could hypothetically have on-the-job training for a surgeon, but it takes a lot longer and gets very expensive. That’s probably why they divide it up into pre-med, med school, internships, fellowships, etc. That and it means that companies don’t have to absorb all of the cost of training new surgeons. Maybe it’s not the ultimate solution to the problem since some doctors have difficulty paying off their loans. Unless you are in a highly paid specialty, you could be repaying your loans for many years.


Yeah I don’t care if the jobs are literally no skill, that shouldn’t matter when it comes to paying a living wage.


Also, unskilled jobs still end up generating experienced laborers who are worth being compensated for that experience.

stevehobbes, (edited )

The whole point of the term unskilled labor is that it isn’t.

If you’re on an assembly line and you’re putting part A into box B, it takes an afternoon to learn and you’ll be about as fast as someone who’s been doing it for 30 years.

Either part A is in box B or it isn’t. The difference between the best person and the worst person that’s still worth employing is very small, and probably can’t be trained.

You don’t pay extra for someone with experience putting part A into box B.

But they should be paid a living wage.



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  • stevehobbes,

    It’s far more complicated, what is the ROI on the multimillion dollar robot to do pick and place, how long before a packaging or dimension change requires reprogramming, or you stop making part B and instead make part C that the robot needs to be adapted for. How much does labor cost.

    There’s a quite a few parameters to analyze, but it is frequently cheaper and makes sense not to automate it, and instead pay someone to stand at an assembly line instead.

    But then the whole automation thing…. Good for skilled labor (the people building and programming robots and automated assembly lines), not good for unskilled labor. If you’re not qualified or unable to learn another skill, it’s one more job that disappears.


    The only thing that matters is how many hours it takes up in a persons day.


    Well don’t you think we should fix misnomers? Also, “it’s an official term” is a poor excuse. Terms change and evolve all of the time.

    Tons of jobs can be taught with on the job training with little to no experience. There’s a reason unskilled labor typically refers to food service and blue collar work, while white collar jobs are typically considered entry level.

    We can fix two things by the way. Complaining about multiple issues under a larger umbrella doesn’t “muddy the water.”

    @Toldry@lemmy.world avatar

    Which alternative term do you propose?


    For the record, I don’t totally disagree with you, but don’t you think capitalists at the top would rather people spend their energy arguing about the economic terminology rather than fighting for workers rights?

    They would happily call it just about anything if it meant not paying workers more.


    And you don’t think the ruling class weaponizes the terminology to prevent wage increases?

    Semi-Hemi-Demigod, in Knowledge is power, make sure you're an informed voter
    Semi-Hemi-Demigod avatar

    I hate that I have to pay attention. Sometimes I feel like if I took a ball peen hammer to my prefrontal cortex I’d be so much happier.


    Then they’d have you exactly where they want you to be. The people who are working against your interests are using the divisiveness precisely to make people look away. Once you look away they’re free to pull their nefarious shit.

    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Remember: It’s okay to check out for a little bit and take a break. Just don’t do it for so long that you come back not being able to catch up.


    Exactly. People that get fed up with politics are usually the empathetic, moral people we literally need running, voting, volunteering, and donating! So take care of yourself, but please come back when you can…


    A just world wouldn’t require us to exert so much mental energy on securing our basic needs. It’s exhausting. Just remember to step away now and then to avoid burnout

    Semi-Hemi-Demigod avatar

    If I do that then I’m being bad and letting fascism win.

    I just want one election where the fate of the world doesn’t hang in the balance.


    I understand what you mean. Just remember that beating the fascists requires all of us. No single person can defeat fascism. As long as you still show up when needed, mental breaks are ok.

    Semi-Hemi-Demigod, (edited )
    Semi-Hemi-Demigod avatar

    When do I get a break, though? Fascism is on the rise everywhere. Climate change will just make it worse. I'm going to be dealing with this shit until I die. I've taken breaks and when I start paying attention again it's just worse than before. It's like I'm the only one who read the rubric for a group project.

    Where's my hammer...


    Move to Australia. We vote on every'fucking'thing and its rarely end of the world type shit.

    Semi-Hemi-Demigod avatar

    I'm thinking that's my way out. Find a country that's not an empire and move there. Then my actions won't allow a hospital to be bombed with impunity.

    tygerprints, in Kindness is punk

    Kindness IS punk as fuck. I've long known that kindness more than any other trait is the real hallmark of intelligence. You won't find much of it around here these days.

    donut4ever, in Billionaire Philanthropy Is Kind Of A Scam - SOME MORE NEWS

    I mean, that should be the common knowledge. You can’t be a billionaire from being the good guy. Lol

    Binthinkin, in How Trump is Following Hitler's Playbook | Robert Reich

    Doesn’t matter as long as all people go out and vote this trash bag shit eater into an early grave.

    JimmyChanga, in Washington state’s largest labor union endorses ‘uncommitted’ over Biden, suggested it is concerned about Joe Biden’s ability to defeat Donald Trump

    Surely Trump is now recognised as an enemy of workers everywhere. Fooled once with his first election promises, not to be fooled again.

    rockSlayer, (edited ) in One of the mods is removing the no tankies rule, this must not continue.

    Since you chose to air this publicly, I’ll respond publicly. I’ve been removing your undemocratic “rule” addition for a few reasons.

    1. We are a democratic community and as such all rules are voted upon. When you agreed to live our values, I made this post to ratify our rules. The comment I KNOW you’re going to cite was posted a full week after the rules were ratified. It’s wholly undemocratic and against the values of our community to just decide your rule is an exception and add it without seeking consensus. Here’s a screenshot to jog your memory. https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/42cd86f0-ea47-4839-99ed-df8026ce2f50.png
    2. The rules and posting expectations already ban the behaviors exhibited by people labelled tankies. This “rule” seems to be for your ego rather than any practical reason.
    3. “Mods have final say” is in regards to interpreting and enforcing the rules of our community. It does not excuse unilateral changes to the rules.
    4. As the only active mod, I can tell you with absolute certainty that tankies have not been a problem in this community. The lemmy instances people point to as being tanky are banned by LW and cannot interact with the community at all. The problem I’ve noticed are people denying the genocide of Palestinians.

    Edit: I don’t have any control in how you choose to handle issues in our community, I just react the way that seems most appropriate. That being said, I do want to find a solution here. I believe we should ban the behaviors of tankies, rather than leave it up to interpretation for what’s allowed. We have a few options here; I’d prefer we make a metapost on amending the rules to whether we should explicitly ban support for totalitarianism or ban tankie discourse.


    the community didnt vote on those rules though.


    Great response. Thanks for keeping things cool and professional, and respecting actually democratic values. I’m glad to see we had a great mod.

    @qevlarr@lemmy.world avatar

    Maybe it helps if you make explicit that this is not a tankie space, they are not welcome, even if you understandably don’t want a rule specific to tankies. Every leftist subreddit has been taken over by tankie mods and I don’t want that to happen here


    This needs to be done.


    Edit: I don’t have any control in how you choose to handle issues in our community, I just react the way that seems most appropriate. That being said, I do want to find a solution here. I believe we should ban the behaviors of tankies, rather than leave it up to interpretation for what’s allowed. We have a few options here; I’d prefer we make a metapost on amending the rules to whether we should explicitly ban support for totalitarianism or ban tankie discourse.

    I would certainly appreciate this. While I have significant problems with the pro-totalitarian ideology (I’m closest to anarcho-syndicalism - rigid hierarchy, trusting in a human with absolute power to act selflessly, and mass murder of dissidents doesn’t sit well with me), when they are well-behaved and the toxic behavior disallowed, they can provide great discourse. I would echo others in stating that vigilance against the comm being subverted for totalitarianism is important but, do agree that the other rules really should cover the biggest behavioral problems.

    kadu, in One of the mods is removing the no tankies rule, this must not continue.
    @kadu@lemmy.world avatar


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  • Drusas,

    Very dysfunctional if they're not working together. I imagine OP is trying to drum up support.

    DerisionConsulting, in One of the mods is removing the no tankies rule, this must not continue.

    To me, it looks like there are only 3 Mods here, and you are one of them.




    So, it should be easy for the three of you to work out

    Bunnylux, in It's Girl Scout Cookie season, so it's a great time to remind you that the Girl Scouts welcome trans and nonbinary children. Here is a list of trans Girl Scouts to order cookies from.
    @Bunnylux@lemmy.world avatar

    Based to reject donation


    That’s really unexpected, too. Good for them.

    Kalkaline, in Junior Bake Off final was "coronation" themed. Ilhām, 10, was asked her opinion of the monarchy, I can't believe they aired her answer, but she gives me hope.

    You can’t expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you


    Strange women laying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government


    If I went around, claiming I was an emperor, cuz some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they’d put me away!


    Shut up, will you??? Shut up!!!

    NielsBohron, (edited )

    Oooh, now we see the violence inherent in the system!

    edit: I thought this line and this exchange was funny back when I was a religious, white, male teenager in a conservative part of the US. Now that I’ve grown up and seen enough injustice and evidence to become an anti-theist socialist living in a different (but still conservative) part of the US, it hits a little too close to home to be truly funny.


    I mean the others haven’t proven much better…


    “[I]t has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time”

    FlyingSquid, in Junior Bake Off final was "coronation" themed. Ilhām, 10, was asked her opinion of the monarchy, I can't believe they aired her answer, but she gives me hope.
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    For as in absolute governments the King is law, so in free countries the law ought to be king; and there ought to be no other. But lest any ill use should afterwards arise, let the Crown at the conclusion of the ceremony be demolished, and scattered among the people whose right it is.

    – Thomas Paine


    Thomas (bring the) Paine

    Binthinkin, in Democrats should hold a primary - Some More News

    Yea we get it but it’s too late. The youth needs to win this for dems and then dismantle the two regimes we call parties. Hell, many state GOP’s are going bankrupt so it shouldn’t be too hard.

    Get these hegemonic dipshits out of politics. Especially the foreign actors pretending to be citizens. Root them all out.

    Also text Resist to 50409 to send letters to your representatives! Resistbots AI also can take written and proposed bills and turn them into letters to send to your reps. It’s as easy as copy and paste!

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