S_204,

Missing the Palestinian flag there Buddy.

SouthEndSunset,

*Israeli

S_204,

Another dope who’s swallowed Iran’s Propaganda. Good job. Israel didn’t start it in October, or in '48 or any of the wars in between.

SouthEndSunset,

Either way, it doesn’t make Israel’s actions right.

S_204,

No but it makes them justified. When faced with an existential threat, there is no choice but to eliminate it.

This all ends when Hamas gives up their terroristic control. Even the Arabs understand that and are including it in their peace deal negotiations.

SouthEndSunset,

You didn’t read the article. Your statements make no sense.

S_204,

It’s a picture not an article…and you still struggled to read it. LoL.

SouthEndSunset,

You don’t read pictures. You look at them. This is a meme. As you were.

Doorbook,

Nice post was able to find many pro genocide and colonization users here to be labeled as “idf” or “Zainoist”

OtakuAltair,
@OtakuAltair@lemmy.world avatar

People’s views on NK and how it got there are a surprisingly good indicator of their views on Palestine.

Ambiorickx,

The number of tankies in this thread is just epic

Arelin,

So, pointing out that the US carpet bombed North Korea with 635,000 tons of bombs, killed 20% of their population and turned all remaining infrastructure to rubble is “tankie” now?

You guys just can’t see non-westerners as human.

crackajack,

Two wrongs don’t make a right, you cow.

Arelin,

Parroting zionist talking points really well there bud. The fuck do you mean ‘wrong’?

The Viet Cong didn’t liberate their country from the US by being nice, and Palestinians won’t liberate theirs from US-backed Israel by being nice either. The difference here is the even more extreme brutality of the US that made NK the way it is today.

TheSanSabaSongbird,

Well, that and the fact that the DPRK is being held hostage by one of the world’s most successful organized crime families. Had North Korea won, the only difference would be that the Kim family would control all of Korea. I don’t think it’s accurate to say that the US made the Kims what they are.

One thing that I think is not widely appreciated enough, especially by younger people, is how much the fear of a third world war dominated the 2nd half of the 20th century. I don’t point this out as any kind of moral justification on anyone’s part, but rather as an explanation that is far more convincing than the simple US bad, communism good and vice versa that is so common on social media.

We have to remember that the men behind all of these events had survived the largest war in human history and absolutely believed in the possibility of even worse to come. It informed everything about how they thought about the world. How could it not? The things they had seen and experienced first hand were, as they say, the stuff of nightmares.

crackajack,

How else does the word “wrong” mean. You braindead jackass.

OtakuAltair,
@OtakuAltair@lemmy.world avatar

The amount of zionists in this thread is staggering. Apparently fighting back against oppressors is a bad thing.

sin_free_for_00_days,

The number of people who don’t think Israel should exist always amazes me.

TimeNaan,

It shouldn’t if you know Israel’s history.

bigFab,

I think the statistics show it all in the Korean case. May be lot of tankies here, but they’r bringing factual data.

ILikeBoobies,

NK shouldn’t be here

NoLifeGaming,

Israel is missing from the picture

ArmokGoB,

Israel didn’t start the war.

febra,

Yes it did when it started the settler colonial project and ethnic cleansing campaign in 1948 and all the subsequent oppression.

S_204,

LoL. This is just so stupid. The UN offered the Arabs the same deal. One side chose peace the other chose war.

In the 30s the Arabs were offered more than they were in 48 and didn’t want peace then.

900,000 Jews were ethnically cleansed from Arab Nations in the 40s. The Arab population in Israel has risen by tenfold since the inception of Israel. The population of Gaza has increased by a similar level.

You’ve fallen victim to Arab imperialist propaganda.

NoLifeGaming,

Hmmm yes let me take half your land then offer you a peace deal. Then claim you’re the one who’s causing the problems when you don’t take that “peace” deal. Ridiculous.

DarkGamer,
DarkGamer avatar

Jews started out buying the land legally until Arab nationalists started murdering them, making a one state solution impossible, then declared war on Israel when they used the UN's two state borders.

Arabs who remained peaceful and stayed behind the 48 borders were not "ethnically cleansed," and today are 20% of the citizens of Israel. Perhaps that oppression is due to constant violent attacks and a refusal to lay down arms and has nothing to do with ethnicity.

febra, (edited )

Buying the land legally from other occupiers, the Brits. The native population was never asked if they wanted to receive an influx of refugees from Europe, refugees that other European countries and the US straight up refused to take in.

Besides that, many Palestinians were indeed ethnically cleansed, and this is not even a debated fact, former Israeli soldiers came clean about it in interviews, talking in great detail about all the war crimes they committed.

The 20% Arabs in Israel you are talking about, although Israeli citizens, still do not enjoy the same rights as the jewish population.

I know all of this, I’ve been to Israel, I have jewish ancestry and relatives there.

And let’s not even talk about the Apartheid system on the over 7 million people living under a military dictatorship imposed by the IDF, which is straight up a crime against humanity.

NoLifeGaming,

People like you always seem to wanna start the story at October 7th while ignoring any relevant history before it. In case you don’t know, israel and the zionist project took over Palestinian land and as a result almost a million Palestinians fleed palestine. Amongst many others who were killed. What I find interesting is that zionists in their correspondance with the British at the time is that they weren’t pressed about getting palestine to be their homeland, they were okay in finding somewhere else. One of the other possibilities was Uganda for example.

shadowspirit,

Yeah, so mass rape and terrorism is OK in your book if the ends justify the means? Hamas did start the conflict.

Israel was in talks with Saudi Arabia to normalize relations and Iran didn’t want that at all and they gave Hamas the green light to attack.

usip.org/…/saudi-israel-normalization-agreement-h…

Everything that happens in that region is about Saudi Arabia and Iran.

NoLifeGaming,

No one said its okay. You’re very good at strawmaning me. If Hamas did commit such acts then of course there should be proper justice. However, proper justice isn’t blowing up innocent people and children. Just like you don’t blow up a school when there’s a school shooter.

shadowspirit,

Where we disagree is in saying Hamas didn’t start this current conflict. They certainly did. Has shit been going on here for millenia? of course. The “strawman” was to remind you of the fact this opened with mass rape and murder at a music festival – that’s a fact.

You seemed to argue that thousand years of history seemingly justifies that and I’m telling you that it does not. " If Hamas did "… So you’re absolute when it comes to Israel but when it comes to Hamas there’ are modifiers. Your bias is showing.

www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67613153

www.cnn.com/2023/12/06/middleeast/…/index.html

Israel has done plenty of things that they should not be doing. The warlike bombardment of a city is not justified and has soured world opinion against them.

byroon,

Great shitpost 👍

Alsephina,

North Korea? Really?

The country that had fucking 20% of its population slaughtered by the US in just 3 years after Korea was split in two against their will after WW2?

MindSkipperBro12,

deleted_by_moderator

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  • Alsephina,

    Least genocidal westerner

    MindSkipperBro12, (edited )

    Not only that: An American.

    We’re well practiced in genociding and good at truly succeeding. Silly.

    Arelin,

    Leave it to westerners to be completely ignorant of history lol

    This ‘meme’ is disgusting.

    TheSanSabaSongbird,

    You’re the one trotting out a simplistic black and white vision as if anything about any part of history is or can ever be explained in such terms. History is always much more complicated than our ideological biases would like.

    TheSanSabaSongbird,

    There’s zero context in your comment. It’s just as biased as the meme is. You’re blithely glossing over the much larger historical context of WW2 and why the US was there in the first place, and you’re eliding the rather obvious fact that a sizable majority of Koreans were opposed to the attempted communist takeover in the first place.

    The salient fact about the 2nd half of the 20th century, that is routinely ignored by Lemmy’s tankies, is that the men guiding US foreign policy had survived the largest war in human history and were absolutely and legitimately terrified that there would be another even worse war in the very near future if they didn’t do everything they could to prevent the kind of runaway imperialism seen in Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

    Furthermore, these men knew for a fact --as even Lemmy’s tankies will admit-- that communism by design and by doctrine can only come to its final stage in a globally hegemonic system. If you honestly believed, as they clearly did, that fighting a war in Korea --which after all had been liberated from Imperial Japan by the US-- was part of a much larger strategy to contain communism and thereby prevent a 3rd world war, you would feel yourself morally obliged to do it.

    We can argue about whether or not they were correct in their beliefs, but we can’t simply condemn them as evil imperialists. That’s just stupid reductionist bullshit. Reality is always much more complicated than simple black and white “my team good, your team bad.”

    sharkfucker420,
    @sharkfucker420@lemmy.ml avatar

    Bro I’ll be real with you north Korea got fucking obliterated to the extent that they were living underground because every single building has been bombed to rubble. North Korea was definitely the victim of imperialist interference. No person in that country deserved that level of devastation.

    galloog1,

    That has no bearing on them starting the war. Don’t start wars and you are far less likely to suffer wars.

    Alsephina,

    I was gonna ask if you also think this way about Palestine, but looks like I don’t need to.

    Israel is finishing a war they did not start. Violence progressed to the terrorist attack but it didn’t start there. Do you really expect them to accept going back to the status quo that was progressively getting worse? That was the result of the last three conflicts.

    Interesting how you can tell someone is a zionazi based on their comments in this thread. Almost like these are similar situations of people rising up against their oppressors.

    MindSkipperBro12,

    deleted_by_moderator

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  • Alsephina, (edited )

    Sounding alot like a zionazi rn

    Edit: Lmao one of your comments

    If the Palestinians didn’t want to be associated with Hamas then they should stop supporting them.

    At least your genocidal tendencies are consistent; blaming victims for militarizing against foreign colonizers.

    MindSkipperBro12,

    Also, we’re talking about the Korean War, not Israel vs Palestine.

    MindSkipperBro12,

    deleted_by_moderator

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  • OsrsNeedsF2P,

    A total of 635,000 tons of bombs, including 32,557 tons of napalm, were dropped on Korea. By comparison, the U.S. dropped 1.6 million tons in the European theater and 500,000 tons in the Pacific theater during all of World War II (including 160,000 on Japan).

    …yea.

    GiveMemes,

    Also consider the fact that north Korea is roughly the size of Maine and Japan is roughly the size of the east coast.

    TheUncannyObserver,

    If North Korea was anywhere near the size of those other countries, your comment would be a good rebuttal. As far as I’m aware, no other country, save perhaps Palestine, has been bombed as relatively bad as they were.

    Alsephina,

    I think you’re misreading their comment? They seem to be pointing out how brutal it was, not downplaying it.

    WaxedWookie,

    I guess Israel were too busy genociding Palestinians to make it to the meeting.

    Dead_or_Alive,

    Maybe Hamas shouldn’t start shit.

    MisterScruffy,
    Dead_or_Alive,

    Sucks to be on the wrong side of history. No one wants to loose their communities, property or livelihoods. However the Jews had a claim to the area going back thousands of years and they needed to go somewhere.

    There were many Jewish communities across the Middle East prior to the 1940s that no longer exist anymore either. I wonder who pushed them out… do they get the same sentiment from your bleeding heart?

    There have been two state solutions on the table with Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital on the table multiple times. Palestinians turned every one of them down. Instead of building their own state they will be further pushed out of Gaza. Where they go is anyones guess no one wants them, especially other Muslim states.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution

    hark,
    @hark@lemmy.world avatar

    That’s funny that you think you’re on the right side of history for supporting a genocidal ethnostate.

    Sambarkjand,

    What’s the ethnic makeup of Israel? What’s the ethnic makeup of Palestine? Which one is closer to the definition of an ethno state? Do words not mean anything to you?

    hark,
    @hark@lemmy.world avatar

    You’re granted citizenship automatically if you’re Jewish and you get a free trip to go there. Being Jewish grants one special privileges. The country is based entirely on ethnicity and was established with that as a core principle. If it’s not technically considered an ethnostate, it’s about the closest that a country can be one without being one in that case.

    Dead_or_Alive,

    I guess we’ll see in 50 years which nation still exists.

    Looks at all of Palestine’s immediate neighbors in the Middle East who won’t even lift a finger to even admit refugees.

    I think I know where I’ll put my money.

    WaxedWookie,

    I guess we’ll see in 50 years which nation still exists.

    So if the Nazis won WWII, you’d support them? You’ve already made it clear you’re willing to support far-right genocidal ethnostates.

    hark,
    @hark@lemmy.world avatar

    Might makes right, huh? I already know Palestine will be completely ethnically cleansed and then israel will move onto taking parts of Syria and other countries in their goal of lebensraum. That doesn’t mean it’s morally right.

    Dead_or_Alive,

    You either didn’t read my comment from earlier in the thread or you enjoy trying to frame an argument.

    I’ll post it below for you to read and educate yourself.

    There have been two state solutions on the table with Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital on the table multiple times. Palestinians turned every one of them down. Instead of building their own state they will be further pushed out of Gaza. Where they go is anyones guess no one wants them, especially other Muslim states.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution

    TLDR: Palestine will be wiped of the map unless they choose a different path. Israel isn’t going anywhere.

    hark,
    @hark@lemmy.world avatar

    The negotiations were argued in bad faith. Israel would put forth ridiculous demands and then lay the blame on Palestine for rejecting them. Why do you think Palestinians are being pushed out of Gaza and have been continually and constantly pushed out for decades? There was never a sincere effort for a two-state solution.

    Nobody wants to take on many refugees all at once, it’s very difficult to manage. Why do you think Britain “volunteered” Palestinian land to relocate Jews out of Europe? It wasn’t out of the goodness of their heart.

    dubyakay,

    No response to this of course. Don’t even expect one. They are currently with their fingers in their ears yelling “LALALLALALALA”

    Sambarkjand,

    There’s literally a response just below yours, but of course taking the time to make sure you’re actually right is never a strong point for you people.

    I personally find it very funny that the pro-Palestinian go-to is that none of the offers Israel made for a 2 state solution were ‘realistic’ or ‘serious’ or ‘good faith’. No one doubts that there were offers. Tell me, in what other scenario in all of human history do the losers of a war (that they started) get to dictate the terms of their surrender?

    Dead_or_Alive,

    Bullshit, there have been multiple attempts at a settlement with regional actors who were sympathetic to the Palestinians. Palestinians turned them all down.

    Not a single country in the Middle East has volunteered to take in even a token amount of refugees… Egypt used to control the Sinai and govern that region… nada, zilch, zero refugees allowed to cross into their boarders.

    Nobody in the Middle East except Iran wants anything to do with the Palestinians. Iran is only happy to use them to further their regional goals.

    Saudi was in the middle of negotiations with Israel before this conflict broke out.

    Why is this? Because everyone has tried to negotiate a peace and the Palestinians refuse to come to terms.

    Israel is waging total war on Gaza. It’s ugly and civilians will be killed. Nobody is going to stop them because the region wants an end to this conflict one way or another and no one gives a shit about Palestine.

    Brutalizing Gaza and driving Hamas out is the only way this is going to be solved.

    Grandwolf319,

    It’s similar to Ukraine, they don’t want peace unless it means getting all their land back. You can literally apply the same logic and say Ukraine can stop the war if they just agree to peace today.

    duffman,

    If Ukraine has been firing rockets into Russia, the Russian invasion would have been justified.

    Dead_or_Alive,

    Somewhat similar, but the bottom line is Ukraine is a recognized nation with international backing. Russia attacked them to gain territory. If Ukraine can beat this round of Russian aggression they get to remain a state and regain their lost lands. If they can’t beat the Russians back then it is an entirely different scenario. As much as I want to see them succeed there is a chance they could fail.

    Finland also lost a huge chunk of territory to Russia back in the 1940s. They recognized they couldn’t beat back the Russians, struck a deal and moved on. They are now arguably better off than if the choose to continue the fight.

    Gaza is not a state, the Palestinians had multiple a chances for statehood and a shot at peaceful prosperity. Instead they choose to continue to fight and commit terrorism. The current state of total war between Israel and Hamas are the consequence of their actions.

    DarkGamer,
    DarkGamer avatar

    Ukraine has a viable path to military victory, Palestine does not. Israel was attacked and is counter attacking in defense, Russia invaded Ukraine under obvious bullshit pretext as a land grab. Your bias is obvious if you can't see the difference.

    MisterScruffy,

    Palestinians DON’T WANT TO GO TO ANOTHER COUNTRY. THEY WANT TO STAY IN THEIR HOME THE PLACE THEIR FAMILIES HAVE LIVED FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS

    Dead_or_Alive,

    Great, but they haven’t accepted any peace plan that was negotiated in the last 40 years so they could stay in their homes.

    Instead they choose war.

    MisterScruffy,

    so If I threw you out of your house, then you tried to break back in, would that be you “choosing violence”? or would you be justified?

    Israel has no intention of living side by side with Palestinians they have always wanted to continually push them off more and more land until there is none left.

    If you don’t believe me explain what is happening in the West Bank right now??? Hamas isn’t in control there, the gov in the west bank complies with Israel and there has been no terror attacks staged from there AND YET the settlers and the IDF continue to harrass and kill and displace people. Its clear that for the Palestinians they have 2 choices, fight or leave and never see their homes again. Fighting is the more courageous choice.

    Dead_or_Alive,

    You wouldn’t throw me out of my house. I have guns and state backing.

    EndlessApollo,

    So do Palestinians, but when they use them to resist occupation thousands of them die for it. Goddamn I had no idea there were literally people that think might makes right, that if a country outlasts and conquers others that justifies any atrocities

    hark,
    @hark@lemmy.world avatar

    If driving out hamas is the only way this is going to be solved, why weren’t things solved before the existence of hamas? Egypt and saudi arabia have negotiated and a lot of money has exchanged hands to keep them docile. Egypt is high on the list of recipients of US foreign aid, i.e. money to shut up and behave according to US interests. The US clearly favored israel in the camp david meetings and even spied on egypt for the benefit of israel during that time (forbes.com/…/cia-secretly-bought-global-encryptio…):

    “In the meantime, more than 100 governments around the world, possibly as many as 120, purchased and employed the backdoored equipment. China and the Soviet Union, as it was then, weren’t amongst the buyers. However, Egypt was, and this apparently enabled the U.S. to monitor communications between Anwar Sadat and Cairo during the Egypt-Israel peace accord meeting at Camp David in 1978.”

    Why are you focusing on other countries taking on refugees? These people shouldn’t be driven out of their homes to create refugees in the first place.

    EndlessApollo,

    Israel hasn’t existed for a long ass time until the last century, shouldn’t that be evidence that Jewish people don’t belong there by your logic?

    Dead_or_Alive,

    The Jews were going to end up somewhere after WW2. Their ancestral homeland won out. They also had the backing of major Western powers.

    Nations fall and nations rise, such is life. Don’t be on the wrong side of his . Jews all over the Middle East have been pushed out of their communities since Israel was founded. Sucks for them as well, once again don’t be on the wrong side of history.

    WaxedWookie,

    Blood and soil? Rudolph Jitler shit.

    Dead_or_Alive,

    No just real politik. Nations and people act in their own self interest and influence the world around them to the best of their abilities.

    Facism is just stupid.

    WaxedWookie,

    An apartheid state committing a genocide to create an ethnostate is acceptable self-interest? This isn’t self-defence - particularly when Israel backed Hamas over the secular moderates to create the pretext for this. Netanyahu is getting Israelis killed by both Hamas and the IDF.

    I agree - Israel and the Nazis are stupid and monstrous, which is why I condemn both. What’s the material difference between the far-right, genocidal fascist ethnostates Israel and Nazi Germany as far as you’re concerned?

    Dead_or_Alive,

    Well shut it down boys we’ve gone full circle. Israelis are killing themselves by killing the people responsible for…killing them.

    That is perhaps the most convoluted display of mental gymnastics I’ve ever seen.

    WaxedWookie,

    You still haven’t explained the meaningful difference between Israel’s genocide in advancement of a fascist ethnostate and Hitler’s genocide in advancement of a fascist ethnostate.

    Dead_or_Alive,

    I’ve stated it multiple times in this thread. Here is a copy paste from earlier:

    Sucks to be on the wrong side of history. No one wants to loose their communities, property or livelihoods. However the Jews had a claim to the area going back thousands of years and they needed to go somewhere.

    There were many Jewish communities across the Middle East prior to the 1940s that no longer exist anymore either. I wonder who pushed them out… do they get the same sentiment from your bleeding heart?

    There have been two state solutions on the table with Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital on the table multiple times. Palestinians turned every one of them down. Instead of building their own state they will be further pushed out of Gaza. Where they go is anyones guess no one wants them, especially other Muslim states.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution

    Let me know if this is clear enough or if I should draw something with a crayon for you.

    WaxedWookie,

    Blood and soil was a Nazi argument - the fact that you’re unable to differentiate yourself from Hitler in any meaningful way should give you motivation for self-reflection. You’ve had multiple opportunities to do this, and failed miserably.

    Much like Putin’s efforts to negotiate with Ukraine being conditional on full surrender and de-armament, Israel haven’t made anything resembling a good faith effort to negotiate. In any case, if they wanted reasonable negotiations, they wouldn’t have helped jihadists secure power in Palestine, displacing secular moderates.

    You don’t have the charisma to convincingly sell your Nazi talking points. I’d suggest committing to the bit and copying Hitler’s exit strategy like you’ve copied his prescriptions, methods, and talking points.

    Dead_or_Alive,

    Yeah chief, the only person quoting Hitler or the Nazi’s in this entire thread is you.

    You either have fetishized Nazi’s to a degree that you can’t separate your fetish from reality or you’re just projecting.

    Either way you can fuck right off.

    WaxedWookie,

    Imagine trying to claim the moral high ground and painting the other person as a Nazi after failing to identify any point of difference you have with the Nazis.

    Real simple - for starters, they’re genocidal, fascist morons, and ethnostates are pathetic.

    Not that it’ll prove a thing, but I’ll let you continue your fail streak by asking you to point out out where I quoted Hitler as you mirrored his ideology.

    I’ll extend an olive branch though - I can help direct you to a bunker so that you can finish the copycat job if you’d like.

    SkippingRelax,

    Yeah i think a couple of Neanderthals descendants have claims that go back tens of thousands of years. do they get the same sentiment from your bleeding hearth?

    Also my cousin has Etruscan blood, should he kick Italians out of Italy as he has a claim that goes back TWO thousands years and he’s got nowhere to go since his wife kicked him out?

    HerbalGamer,
    @HerbalGamer@sh.itjust.works avatar

    bleeding hearth

    Maybe check your fireplace if it’s bleeding.

    bufalo1973,
    @bufalo1973@lemmy.ml avatar

    Now imagine a civil war begins in the US. Both sides get too weak. And then the Cherokee, Apache, … receive all the military help they need from, let’s say, China. And they start killing “every non Nation person” because “that was our land”. Would you say that’s right and that all and every white/black/Asian person deserve it?

    Dead_or_Alive,

    I’ll take “Imaginary things that will never happen” for $500 Alex.

    MindSkipperBro12, (edited )

    Who the fuck cares about a claim from thousands of years ago? Can you even count how many Greats you would have to add to even reach your goat herder of a grandpa back when Jesus was still around?

    This is just trying to revive a dead dream and we all get to suffer for it.

    SkippingRelax,

    That’s what drives me crazy about dated religions and ultra nationalism. We could have flying cars if people stopped with this shit

    bartolomeo,

    I don’t really get the logic: is an older claim or a more recent claim to land “more valid”?

    MindSkipperBro12, (edited )

    A recent claim is better. I care about the partitioning of the lands with the Sykes Picot Agreement, I don’t care about some inbred king of sandland did back in 147AD.

    trafficnab,

    Wouldn’t this mean that the millions of Israelis born in Israel over the last 80 years probably have the strongest claim to the land (at least the internationally recognized 1967 borders anyway)? 1916 is not particularly recent

    Reddfugee42,

    By your logic, the Innocents killed on 9/11 brought it on themselves.

    yournamehere,

    selfawarewolf?

    american war on taliban was the well accepted result. israels war on gazians… same.

    Strawberry,

    The United States created the conditions for the blowback that resulted in the 9/11 attacks

    OsrsNeedsF2P,

    Well yea, to be fair if half these Redditors Lemmies lived in the Middle East they would be calling for the genocide of the US after what happened in Afghanistan and Iraq

    umbrella,
    @umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

    except the israelis were the ones starting shit 7 decades ago

    hamas is just a convenient excuse for genocide

    Dead_or_Alive,

    Points to the October attack on Israel.

    Total war on Gaza looks pretty damn justified to me.

    OsrsNeedsF2P,

    Points to who started the war…

    Nythos,

    200 dead from a terrorist attack committed by terrorists justifies 20,000 civilian deaths by carpet bombing and levelling entire communities?

    HerbalGamer,
    @HerbalGamer@sh.itjust.works avatar

    missed the /s?

    ZombiFrancis,

    Ah yes. History began on October 7th. There is no context to anything involving anything prior to October 7th 2023.

    Although even looking at just October 7th and what has happened since… kind of elucidates what the fuck has been going on.

    Hell even 7 decades ago Einstein was looking at what was just starting and went “Well this is some Nazi shit.”

    AmosBurton,

    deleted_by_author

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  • ZombiFrancis,

    The more reasonable and manageable timeframe might be closer to living generations currently in existence.

    The hyperbole kind of misses its intended mark when itself misses the context of a call for context.

    force, (edited )

    Saying “this section of the planet belongs to a specific race because they’re fractionally descended from one of the people that lived there a long time ago” is dumb as fuck. Modern people have 0 connection to Jews that long ago and most modern Israeli Jews aren’t actually ethnically similar to Jews thousands of years ago, most Israelis are primarily European descendant or other non-Palestinian descendant.

    Modern Israelis are not the same group as the various historical groups referred to as “Jews”. Your logic is flawed.

    TheSanSabaSongbird,

    Just a slight correction; something like 60 percent of modern Israelis are Mizrahi, meaning they are from the Middle East and have no European ancestry or connection to Europe. Ethnically they are very similar to the Palestinians and if you put them together in a mixed group, you probably wouldn’t be able to tell them apart based on appearance alone.

    There’s also no reason to think that Mizrahi Jews aren’t largely descended from the ancient Jewish population since wherever they’ve lived in the Middle East, they’ve never been fully integrated and have always been pretty insular. Most scholars think that the same is true to a lesser extent of Ashkenazi Jews as well, though obviously they have a lot more European ancestry.

    force,

    That’s all Israelis including non-Jews afaik, when we specify Israeli Jews the number is allegedly at least 50-60% being of mainly European descent.

    Sanyanov,

    Total war is not just an abstract political move, it’s an immense suffering and deaths of dozens of thousands of civilians.

    It’s easy to play political mastermind from the safety and comfort of your home. People who witnessed war know full well what it entails, and they know it’s not just numbers and maps and politics.

    It’s blood. It’s broken families. It’s famine. It’s the destruction of everything they valued. It’s PTSD for just about everyone who managed to survive.

    Think twice before saying things like that. Please.

    Dead_or_Alive,

    I’m simply describing the situation in Gaza for what it is, Total War. I’m not advocating for it, but I recognize that Israel is going to respond to October 7 as they see fit.

    Would you rather I described it in a way that didn’t hurt your fragile sensibilities?

    AmosBurton,

    deleted_by_author

  • Loading...
  • umbrella,
    @umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

    which side is really refusing negotiations: the ones getting armed by the biggest military power in the planet, with the intention of ethnic cleansing, or the ones getting their country leveled fighting with improvised bombs?

    solomon42069, (edited )

    Hamas is holding Palestine hostage, they haven’t had elections in how long? Netanyahu is basically the George W Bush of Israel, curating the current situation in order to create the theatre of war. Meanwhile there are some ridiculously powerful Arab countries right next door who talk a lot of shit about Israel but curiously won’t lift a finger to aid Palestine. Why is that?

    The leaders on both sides are at fault. And their neighbours leaders. And world leaders. We need everyday people to stand up to this populist war mongering bullshit. Fuck the nepo babies who inherit their positions of power and influence - if we don’t say something now we’re all doomed.

    abuttandahalf, (edited )

    Hamas has called for elections numerous times in the last decades. Israel and the US’s client government in the west bank, the Palestinian authority, refuses because they recognize that they will lose. Hamas is at no fault. As a resistance organization they are of the utmost moral standing. They engaged in symmetric military combat with the Israeli military in a textbook act of honorable military resistance when they had no obligation to. They display humaneness towards Israeli colonizers that defies all the brutality that Israel has visited upon the Palestinian people. This is a war against colonialism and imperialism. The belligerents in this war are the united states and Israel. What needs to happen is that they are defeated.

    EndlessApollo,

    Fuck the Israeli government with a cactus, but that doesn’t mean Hamas is anything other than horrible. Groups of “the utmost moral standing” don’t seek out civilian casualties or rape women in the street or accept funding from the Israeli government to keep the “war” (oppression and genocide of Palestinians) going as long as possible

    abuttandahalf,

    The reality is they did not target civilians, they only targetted soldiers and policemen, and they did not rape anyone on the 7th of October. The first point is corroborated by the testimonies of the Israelis in kibbutz be’eri who said the fighters did not harm them but asked them to call the police. In addition to the testimonies that the IDF shelled homes with their inhabitants and fighters inside, fired from helicopters onto the music festival, and shot their own citizens while trying to target qassam fighters, and the casualty figures reported by Israel itself, where 200, half of the burned unidentified bodies turned out to be Palestinians, its evident that Israel caused the overwhelming majority of civilian deaths on 7/10.

    The rape and sexual assault allegations are completely uncorroborated to this day, not even one testimony or piece of evidence supports them.

    This is not to imply that Palestinian resistance would be wrong to target Israeli “civilian” settlers, they would not. Settlers are active participants and beneficiaries of violence, murder, oppression, and ethnic cleansing. The social order where their comfortable lives depend on Palestinian death and subjugation must be upended. For the oppressed to inflict violence on their colonizers is for them to assert their humanity.

    EndlessApollo,

    They literally posted videos of it, the fuck are you talking about? Hamas is a piece of shit terrorist dictatorship that Israel supports and allows to exist as an excuse to keep killing Palestinian civilians. Btw the “they don’t want to be in power but nobody will let them step down” bullshit is very tired and very obviously bullshit, you sound like a tankie trying to explain how Stalin wasn’t a dictator. Hamas isn’t fighting for the people, they’re tin pot tyrants with suitcases full of money from their supposed enemy, a convenient excuse for Israel to drive out and kill everyone in Gaza. Hamas is a pawn in Netanyahu’s game, if you hate zionism you should hate Hamas too

    abuttandahalf,

    Show me the videos of Qassam fighters targeting civilians. Israel does not support hamas, that is delusional. They have never giver aid to hamas as a political organization. Israel funnelled money to hamas when it was a civil religious charity organization, before it had any political dimensions. They directly support the Palestinian authority. I never said hamas didn’t want to be in power. I said they called for elections. They would win these election because they are the most popular Palestinian political party. Hamas is fighting for Palestinian liberation and more successfully than any organization before it. That is a fact. All resistance of the oppressed is going to be used to justify violence and murder against them. That does not make resistance futile or helpful for the colonizer. All resistance factions would resist Israel in the same way in this position. Hamas’s Muslim ideology is irrelevant in the colonial stage.

    EndlessApollo,

    Oh yea also here’s this since you think Hamas is actually enemies with Israel m.jpost.com/…/three-suitcases-stuffed-with-15m-pa…

    EndlessApollo,

    The rest is wrong and I don’t give a shit about it, but if Hamas would win the election so easily, why not hold elections? What kind of delusional circular logic is that? “Hamas is popular, so no need to see if the people want Hamas to stay in power” You seem like you know a lot about the issue and have a lot of good takes, but Hamas Good is very very much not one of them. Ngl the kind of shit you’ve been saying here has major hexbear/grad vibes, like your only thread of logic is “Israel bad and supported by US, therefore their enemies are perfect by default and any evidence that proves otherwise is fake”

    abuttandahalf, (edited )

    What? Hamas controls the Gaza strip. They are calling for elections in both the west bank and Gaza, and the Palestinian authority (which controls the west bank illegitimately after losing the 2006 election) refuses because they will lose. The Palestinian authority is ruled by Fateh, the collaborator party that is supported by Israel. I didn’t comment on the need for elections. As a Palestinian in Palestine it’s clear that hamas would win in the elections if there were any. They already win in student elections etc.

    In the context of colonization and resistance, there is nothing to criticize Hamas for. There is a lot to commend them on. Hamas isn’t perfect obviously. Hamas would be justified in attacking Israeli settlers as all anti colonial resistance movements would be. If there were any evidence of al qassam engaging in sexual violence, that would be an excess that needs to be exorcised with discipline. But there is no evidence of that. In any case it is certain that that is not part of the strategy or doctrine of the al qassam brigades.

    exocrinous,

    Oppression causes terrorism. Israel made Hamas. Why? Because Israel wants an excuse to escalate the conflict

    Dead_or_Alive,

    Thats it, shut it down people, we’ve gone full circle. Israel is killing its own people by killing the people who want to kill them…

    Your mental gymnastics deserve a gold medal for that performance.

    phoenixz,

    Maybe you shouldn’t talk shit

    Dead_or_Alive,

    Oooo internet tough guy.

    NoLifeGaming,

    The story doesn’t start on oct 7th.

    KermitLeFrog,

    The lack of imperial Japan in this image is disturbing

    tigeruppercut,

    At least imperial japan no longer exists. Anyone flying the flag is seen as a nationalistic weirdo by normal Japanese people.

    https://lemmy.zip/pictrs/image/d49694ed-a853-4e54-9e94-22b4440eaf96.webp

    KermitLeFrog,

    Yeah totally. But if you dare even insinuate that Japan was anything other than a victim of WW2, the public outcry is so massive that you will be forced to publicly apologize and denounce your previous statement

    trackcharlie,

    I’m quite certain that the Japanese understand that the imperialists were at fault for the war.

    They’re understandably salty about how the war ended but were also extremely aware that alternative outcomes was much more death and destruction than just the two cities.

    The US didn’t just drop nukes because they thought it was funny, they did it as a last resort because the alternative was meat waves on both sides.

    gramie,

    Do you have something to back this up? That wasn’t the feeling I had during the seven years I lived in Japan. There was something of a victim mentality, but it wasn’t as militant as you are making out.

    kurosawaa,

    The Japanese military still flies nearly the same flag.

    Rubanski,

    It’s a pity, because the design (!) is pretty rad

    calavera,

    Do they play victim? It doesn’t look like

    hark,
    @hark@lemmy.world avatar

    No, only the geopolitical enemies of the west are bad.

    MindSkipperBro12,

    Yes.😎

    M0ty,

    add hamas to this picture

    Aux,

    You mean Israel.

    Snoozemumrik,

    Yes, history started 7th October. Very smart

    kSPvhmTOlwvMd7Y7E,

    Ah yes, the good ol “they deserved it”

    OsrsNeedsF2P,

    One of the key differences between Chat GPT and humans is that humans can remember more than 32k tokens in a conversation at a time.

    Given that you already forgot what OP wrote by the time you replied to a top level comment, you’ve performed significantly worse than a bot. Congratulations.

    kSPvhmTOlwvMd7Y7E,

    Sorry, I am unable to fulfill your request. Could you reformulate?

    OsrsNeedsF2P,

    Sorry, I am unable to fulfill your request. Could you reformulate?

    Klear,

    Read that in the voice of GLaDOS.

    WaxedWookie,

    Pointing to an ongoing genocide isn’t the same as saying citizens of the state committing that genocide deserved it.

    That said, it’s interesting though not at all surprising that you’re running right past the tens of thousands that Israel have killed to cry victim about the couple of hundred that Hamas killed.

    kSPvhmTOlwvMd7Y7E,

    deleted_by_moderator

  • Loading...
  • DragonTypeWyvern, (edited )

    Pretty sure he’s saying you don’t beat a dog and get to act surprised when it bites.

    Completely unbiased and not deranged troll “EvilZionistEatingBabies”

    WaxedWookie,

    No - you’re making it clear you support a genocide as I scale my concern relative to the civilian death toll and ability to stop the violence.

    The fact that you’re saying literal babies are members of a jihadist movement tells us all we need to know.

    cashews_best_nut,

    So you’re just outright happy babies are dying?

    count_dongulus,

    No, it started in 1948. And it was started by several Arab nations, who invaded immediately after Britain released their mandate in the region protecting Israelis.

    en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab–Israeli_War

    Heard of the six day war? How about the Yom kipour war? Who started any of them?

    Cypher,

    1948 is the year Israel began their genocide by killing or displacing hundreds of thousands of Palestinian people, after which several neighbouring nations staged a joint military intervention.

    blahsay,

    They also tried to straight up genocide Israel two more times afterwards too.

    WaxedWookie,

    Imagine claiming history has spanned a total of 75 years and that an attempted invasion at the beginning of time justifies a genocide in progress today.

    count_dongulus,

    Lemme ask you a question: how did Jerusalem get its name, and who lived there and named it thousands of years ago?

    Aux, (edited )

    Romans.

    Jokes aside, the Bible states that Jews conquered the city from Jebusites. There’s no scientific consensus on who Jebusites actually were. But they were not Israelites, that’s for sure.

    bufalo1973,
    @bufalo1973@lemmy.ml avatar

    By your logic, who named Los Angeles, Nevada, Texas, Florida, …? Are you saying the US has to give back more than half of the territory to Spain?

    MisterScruffy,

    Maybe learn something before you advocate for the extermination of an entire people. Jerusalem was named after the pre jewish pagan Canaanite god Shalem. Those ancient Canaanites were there before the Jews and the modern Palestinians are the descendants of those ancient Canaanites.

    WaxedWookie, (edited )

    Will the answer justify the genocide?

    No.

    Why should anyone care, and why do you deflect to this with less integrity than literal Nazis, who use the same blood and soil arguments you do, but at least tend to own their genocidal positions?

    MisterScruffy,
    ThrowawayPermanente,

    You guys I bit off more than I can chew

    TimewornTraveler,

    Ehhh the Korean war is complicated. It started with Japan invading Korea and attempting to erase their history and culture. (Worth noting that America gave them the green light on this). After WW2, Korea was divided and backed by US/USSR interests on either side. It was a shitshow with everyone disagreeing how things should be run. Eventually North Korea did invade the South, though, so I guess this meme still applies. But even that fact is unclear - they claim it was retaliatory. Who knows.

    Kusimulkku,

    Ehhh the Korean war is complicated

    North Korea did invade the South

    Doesn’t seem very complicated to me

    TimewornTraveler,

    oh well if you think it’s simple then please write the historians who cant make sense of it, we don’t know who attacked first

    Kusimulkku,

    The Korean War was fought between North Korea and South Korea from 1950 to 1953. The war began on 25 June 1950 when North Korea invaded South Korea following years of internal instability and hostilities between the two states.

    Yeah it’s a real conundrum, that one

    TimewornTraveler, (edited )

    scroll down on the Wikipedia page you copied that from. it describes exactly what I’m talking about. I’m not some Hexbear shill here, the Korean war is a legit fucked up and complicated situation

    Honestly why are you so adamant that international conflict must be simple? are you that naive, or are you playing with me, or what?

    Kusimulkku, (edited )

    Who started it is very simple. North Korea started it by invading the South. I’m sorry if that annoys you but it’s not a very controversial thing to say at all or something that’s highly debated by historians or anything.

    TimewornTraveler, (edited )

    sigh you’re really not gonna go back and read it, are you?

    Operation Pokpung
    Main article: Operation Pokpung

    At dawn on 25 June 1950, the KPA crossed the 38th parallel behind artillery fire.[128] The KPA justified its assault with the claim that ROK troops attacked first and that the KPA were aiming to arrest and execute the “bandit traitor Syngman Rhee”.[129] Fighting began on the strategic Ongjin Peninsula in the west.[130][131] There were initial South Korean claims that the 17th Regiment had counterattacked at Haeju; some scholars argue the claimed counterattack was instead the instigating attack, and therefore that the South Koreans may have fired first.[130][132] However, the report that contained the Haeju claim also contained numerous other errors and outright falsehoods.[133]

    This isn’t some galaxy brain conspiracy take, I’m literally just talking about this ambiguity. And I really don’t feel very strongly about this issue - I’m more perturbed that you’re be so obstinate about it.

    Kusimulkku, (edited )

    However, the report that contained the Haeju claim also contained numerous other errors and outright falsehoods.

    Yes, that claim. It’s not highly debated or anything. Like the article says

    The years prior to North Korea’s invasion of South Korea were marked by border clashes between the two countries and an insurgency in the South that was backed by the North.[36][37][38] After failed attempts to stop the fighting and unify the Koreas, North Korean forces (Korean People’s Army or KPA) crossed the 38th parallel on 25 June 1950, formally starting the war.

    There’s some dubious claims, but almost everyone agrees that North Korea started the war. This is like arguing that there’s ambiguity about climate change since there’s some scientists who don’t believe in it. Meanwhile, the vast vast majority agrees that it’s a thing.

    It’s all well and good to think “there’s two sides to this” and whatever, you want to be fair and whatnot, but it’s really unwarranted here.

    calavera,

    It would have been so much easier if instead of splitting Vietnam and Korea, they kept one for each empire to take care of

    Ardiente,

    Noob here, can guess Russia with ukraine but can anyone supply the full list for context on this meme ?

    joyjoy,

    Not pictured: Japan (obvious reasons)

    Knoxvomica,

    North Korea - Korean war and Serbia - Yugoslav wars

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