mindbleach,

we are one of the tamest instances when it comes to banning people and deleting comments/posts.

Uh huh.

Bet you don’t even know where the [word] totalitarian comes from or who coined it without looking it up.

Adolf literally Hitler could’ve coined the term, and that wouldn’t change a goddamn thing for how it is used to accurately condemn a genocidal dictatorship. Do you… do you think projection decides what’s real? Like if someone’s the first person to make an accusation, any form of “no you” is false?

we retain our perfect track record of not blocking real instances

Well yeah, your stated agenda is to shit up other conversations. You’re part of a harassment campaign echo-chamber halfway down the gradient from lemmy.ml’s erudite atrocity apologia to hexbear’s openly enforced tankie hugbox.

yuri,

They have no idea what projection is. To them it’s just a word you use to describe people with opinions you don’t like.

TheFriar,

we don’t ban good-faith posters.

What a crock. I was banned for having a discussion about how the “russia is de-nazifying Ukraine” is swallowing Russian propaganda hook, line, and sinker. White supremacy is a problem everywhere, but to use it as an excuse for what’s happening is a lie.

Ban.

Silverseren,

So wait, are they saying they do consider the USSR communist and that being a positive representation of communism?

Oh wait, I forgot, they deny the Holodomor happened, since it happened to the common worker and tankies don't care about them.

SkyezOpen,

Had a tankie claim the gulag were actually not that bad and “most prisoners survived.” Oh neat, I guess we’ll ignore the 1.6 MILLION that didn’t.

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

"Most survived" is such a ringing endorsement.

Muetzenman,

Most ist more than a half. You to take what you get i guess.

goat,

oh nah it’s really simple, you just pretend that 1.6 million don’t exist and is cia propaganda

affiliate,

even if that were true, surviving is a pretty low bar. you could get tortured every day for 10 years and still survive. what makes things even more absurd is that (like you said) tons of people didn’t even survive.

nonailsleft,

That’s the beauty of the Gulag, comrade. The more you send there, the more survive!

FireTower,
@FireTower@lemmy.world avatar

Average person: The USSR was Communist.

Communist: The USSR wasn’t really Communist.

Lemmygrad: The USSR was Communism at it’s finest.

kameecoding,

the kind of places that say “Ukraine should be destroyed at all costs” and blame the “west” for Putin invading Ukraine and commiting genocide are now calling lemmy.world zionists, well that’s the least surprised I have ever been

Peaty,

Well if those Eastern European nations would stop reacting to Russian imperialism by expressing a desire to join NATO then Russia wouldn’t feel so threatened by NATO’s expansion, so really it’s the countries that Russia is invading’s fault they were invaded. /s

Astroturfed,

It’s super hilarious considering the amount of anti-israel posts/comments I see all over. The nuance of being on the Palestinian side of the argument without openly supporting terrorism is lost on them.

The tankies don’t seem to be able to realize normal, rational people, don’t like groups who intentionally hit civilian soft targets. Russia launching missiles at hospitals and schools wasn’t an issue for them, Hamas killing children and blowing up music festivals not an issue for them…

Cylusthevirus,
Cylusthevirus avatar

Palestine will be free a month from now

Really?

NOT_RICK,
@NOT_RICK@lemmy.world avatar

Deluded

mindbleach,

Yeah, like that Family Guy bit. Bibi saw signs reading “Free Palestine” and said, “Sold.”

FoundTheVegan,
FoundTheVegan avatar

Mark those words!!!

🙄🙄🙄🙄

I stopped reading at that point. While I would love for that to be true, it's absolutely batshit to think it will happen.

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

Yeah, in a month I'm going to be staring absently at indescribable numbers of Palestinian casualties, feeling blessed to lie a country so far from such a situation, and feeling cursed for living in a world that allows it.

SkyezOpen,

I’ve marked them. In my calendar. I’ll be paying the grad a visit in a month to see how things are going.

Epicurus0319,

Now that the largest lemmy instance has finally severed ties with them for fapping to Hamas slaughtering Israeli children, they shall be a mere shell of their former self and this will undoubtedly cripple their ability to brigade and caps-lock their way into retaking Lemmy and turning it back into the Far-Left Truth Social it originally was before its colonization by the normal, non-tankie redditors who founded .world to post about normal redditish things

SkyezOpen,

Hopefully, but those weaselly fucks have infiltrated and taken over leftist subreddit before. I wouldn’t put it past them to try it on lemmy.

Cornpop,

How’s that going huh lol

Epicurus0319, (edited )

Yes comrade, and the month after that Putin, having completely taken over Ukraine somehow and then inevitably sent its whole population on a one-way trip to Siberia, will use his icebreaker fleet and what’s left of his navy to liberate Alaska’s 5 ethnic Russians, immediately decimating our they/them army before they even get there by simply being straight so that within mere hours they secure the entire state and, after inevitably wiping out the native Alaskans and all of Anchorage’s gays, hold a free and fair referendum where 109% of the remaining population votes to form the Alyeska People’s Republic. Then they’ll somehow sneak past the narrow and well-guarded Puget Sound without getting hit by missiles from a mountain or running aground in the fog and then create the Sietl People’s Republic (all without having their cheap uniforms soaked in the rain and dying of pneumonia), gobbling up all those tech and airplane manufacturing secrets (so we can finally see actual innovation without capitalistic monopolies yay!) and going on yet another homophobic killing spree, this time spanning several cities. The PNW shall be free from capitalistic US tyranny!!!1

Meanwhile, China will claim that since Hawaiians are descended from Taiwanese aborigines, it historically owns Hawaii; the american-mainland-hating locals will defs be on board with another continental imperialist stealing their land and turning it into a state-sized tourist resort again- this time peppered with a few boarding schools and sterilizations. It will be the beginning of the end for the American Empire™, I can’t wait!

/s

nonailsleft,

Downvoted for the /s

yuri,

This is great, thank you

kromem,

Of course. As soon as Putin finally gets the position as Speaker of the House he’ll advance a bill that switches the US from capitalism to communism, which will go so well that the EU follows suit within days. This is about one week from now.

Then the unprecedented collaboration of the world having shrugged off the yoke of capitalism will solve nuclear fusion gaining total energy independence. That’s going to be about two more weeks give or take a few days.

Oh, and all Christians will have given up their religion for atheism of course in the interim, so middle east policy based on Revelations goes out the window.

At that point the US and EU will withdraw their support for Israel and instead give their support to Palestine, no longer having any reasons to need a strategic ally in the region.

The paperwork and inevitable killing of Israelis may take about another week after that, but with a bit of luck in the scheduling, it will be wrapped up a month from now.

Mark his words.

gravitas_deficiency,

Who’s Mark? And why does he have words?

mindbleach,

… there’s some rapture movies that sound a lot like that.

antonim,

I recommend you make an account on a third-party instance that federates with us, like ml or ee until they also defederate from us because we have principles

But .ml is literally the “Marxist-Lenininst” instance, why do they automatically expect conflicts with them as well? Some of these people have a persecution complex.

Slotos,

Communists historically are the primary cause of death of communists.

ViciousTangerine,

Well, tankies are pretty good at eating their own, even when they agree on 99% of stuff.

cmbabul,

Also, tankies don’t know Marx from their own asshole, if they had any damn sense they’d be able to tell that the USSR wasn’t communist because it never moved past the ‘dictatorship of the proletariat’ phase if it can be said to have even started in the first place. Stalin took over and never had any intention of letting that happen, Khrushchev did in fairness try to fix some of the damage done which makes some sense because he actually fought in the Russian Civil War as a Bolshevik, but Brezhnev killed all that

Cylusthevirus,
Cylusthevirus avatar

How about because they're not actually particularly Marxist-Leninist, but simply red flavored fascists and everyone with two neurons to rub together can see that?

admiralteal,

Not to no true scotsman this shit, but does anyone self-identify as "Leninist" who isn't a Stalinist?

Marxist is a pretty tame word, all things considered. Marxism is a pretty broad tent that fits a lot of people. But I don't think I have ever interacted with a self-described "Leninist" that wasn't authoritarian and against civil rights. This coming from a guy who regularly quotes Lenin.

vih,

Indeed. Leninism as something separate to Marxism comes from Stalin’s “The Foundations of Leninism” in 1924. He wasted no time after Lenin died to coopt Lenins already flawed adaptations for his own needs. There is no “Leninism” separate from Stalin.

As a Marxist, and someone who have considered myself a communist (though I rarely use the term now mostly because it results in tedious discussions about exactly by what definition; a more precise term would be libertarian Marxist), I’ve stood face to face with “Marxist-Leninists” who told me that if they were in charge I’d be sent to a labor camp because I supported democracy.

To me they’re as much of a threat and as much of an enemy to me as any fascist.

“Democratic” centralism was a very dangerous mistake, and the notion of a vanguard party likewise, because they combine to make a party far too easy to capture by people who think they know best, and so can do away with the corrective input of other people, and that attracts exactly the same type of people who are attracted to fascism. There may be distinctions in who exactly they want to lock up and what they want to outlaw, but there are significant overlaps there too.

Eldritch,

100% It’s such a tragic and fucked up thing that the words have been so corrupted and co-opted. Can’t identify as communist due to McCarthy-ist propaganda in the West and the corruption of Lenin and Stalin still clinging heavily to the term to this day. And for many the same reasons can’t even claim to be libertarian without having to explain topeople that you aren’t just selfish capitalists. Due to all the Twisted Rothbard propaganda. And Marx / Marxism which hasn’t done anything wrong has just been beaten into the ground with misinformation.

It’s so tedious to have to try to educate every single person you talk to. So much easier unfortunately to just use more vague or abstract terms. Though honestly I think there is a lot of value in identifying with and differentiating the terms. And trying to take them back. I for one don’t think I would have come to the realization I have today had people not done it to me.

You are spot on that leninists/stalinists are nobody’s friend though. Just like all authoritarians they’ll turn on themselves even eventually. And Leninism is one term there is no rehabilitation for.

vih,

I kinda like reclaiming the term libertarian, though, because it really fucks with the heads of US right-wing libertarians to quote Joseph Dejacque to them with his agreement with Proudhon’s “property is theft”.

I’ve taken to seeing my goals as not to convince the people I talk to, but to convince “passers-by”. That is far more satisfying because it takes far less effort. You get far just by showing patience and letting the other person stumble in their own words and reach for the insults. Just earlier today someone got a ban for going off the rails and supporting Pinochet in that thread about CIA admitting their mistakes in Iran - he convinced nobody, and ended up contributing to making himself look like a crazed bloodthirsty psychopath. If I’d hoped to “win” that argument, I’d have despaired, but as a beacon illustrating the immorality of coopting democracy “preventatively” out of unsupported fears it was glorious.

With respect to the tankies, my biggest concern is the number of people who just aren’t paying that close attention. There are lots of nice quotes even from Stalin in isolation. When people treat tankies as if they’re just a bit misguided but still part of the same broad movement, they provide fertile ground for these people to peddle their shit that way, and get legitimised by proximity. To me that is the biggest risk the pose - their access to left-wing spaces must be fought, because the moment they’re on the outside their recruitment is far harder.

Eldritch,

That would definitely be a good way to make the heads of those who unironically claim that taxation is theft explode. Though I’m much more a fan of phrasing it as private property. It’s a little more constructive and concise. Even those that are being disingenuous would generally reflexively ask what other kind there is. Besides public property of course. Which is an excellent opportunity to explain concepts like personal property. Whether or not they’ll be listening. Because others might.

I think it’s dangerous to assume/conflate passion with childishness/name calling. For instance the word tankie. Yes some of them have unironically embraced it. But generally it is just name calling as well. Granted many will whine that you’re calling them names. Even when you’re just labeling then as what their words and actions show then to be. Not all names are created equal. Which is why I stick mostly to calling them Leninist/Stalinist/Maoist etc. Which ever is more applicable. Because it’s what they clearly are and espouse. Most of them don’t own a tank however. And the average person wouldn’t understand the reference.🤷 That said, if name calling is the only thing someone had to offer. Yeah fuck that.

vih,

I tend to stick to what people call themselves when talking to them, but the term “tankie” is broad, and sometimes I don’t feel like listing every variation. I don’t think it’s connotations are much worse than those of the names of their various ideologies.

Eldritch,

Yeah, if they choose to use it themselves that’s fair. Typically that isn’t my experience. But it is just that, my experience only. Though honestly if I were to find ones that did do that. Lemmygrad definitely would be a prime location lol. But I never really saw anything there worth engaging.

Cockmaster6000,

“Parties are dumb anyway” says loser, after being booted from a party for being an insufferable twat.

iegod,

Delusional. Lemmy is better off without them or hexbear.

TheBlue22,

They be really calling us genocidal and fascist huh.

Ok, redfash

randint,
@randint@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyz avatar

I’m not sure what Lemmygradders were trying to achieve with that post, but I’m pretty sure it would only solidify lemmy.world’s admins’ decision.

SwallowsDick,

Very sane, very normal

RoyaltyInTraining,
@RoyaltyInTraining@lemmy.world avatar

There is no way these people are real. I refuse to believe anyone can keep that psychological dissonance going.

paris,

Leftist wall of text incoming

In my experience, a lot of tankies are former conservatives who grew up brainwashed by their evangelical parents. When you realize everything you’ve ever been taught is a lie, you search for something to anchor yourself to. Lefties who properly shed their right-wing tendencies tend to anchor to data. It’s a lot harder to slip back into right-wing tendencies when you follow the data.

But brains like shortcuts. They’re just built like that. And when you’re searching for something to anchor to, sometimes you find a shortcut there too. I think a lot of tankies anchor to the shortcut “america and its allies bad, everyone against them good.” It’s a comically simplistic worldview, but it’ll get you surprisingly far, especially when you look to history and our involvement in Latin America.

But being a shortcut, it doesn’t always work. That worldview breaks down (or rather, leads you to draw bad conclusions) whenever America & allies aren’t the bad guys (Ukraine) or even sometimes when they are (Israel).

Brains like to understand stuff. Sometimes they find it easier to pretend they do than to actually understand something. We see this in religion and astrology — abstract the world into something that’s easier to grasp. Doing that and dealing with the resulting cognitive dissonance is often easier than properly getting your head around something. There’s no moral condemnation here; brains just work like that.

Anecdote time

When I started becoming a tankie at 17, the cognitive dissonance was pretty heavy. Tankies were the first leftists I could interact with when I was shedding my conservative evangelical upbringing. It felt like I was learning how the world actually worked but part of me was reserved about the way things were presented by them. Overall I was genuinely learning and understanding the world more though, so I kept listening to tankies.

That part of me that was reserved decided to start watching Vaush since they seemed to really hate him for reasons that I felt didn’t scale well to how vitriolic they were. The way he presented things felt a lot more grounded in reality and I didn’t have to upend as much of my existing knowledge or worldview to “make it make sense.” I was worried at the time that that might be me taking a mental shortcut, so I still mostly listened to the tankies I hung out with online.

The thing that really shattered the illusion for me was realizing how detached tankies actually are when they called me a pedo for not denouncing Vaush and calling him one. I had been watching him for a little bit at that point and had gone through the Vaush Bad Masterlist™; he didn’t seem at all like the picture they painted of him. I realized that they were just as dogmatic as the religion I was trying to shed, just less absurdly wrong about some key stuff — but still absurdly wrong about other key stuff.

I left the discord server then and there and haven’t looked back.

Conclusion/tldr:

These people are real, and the cognitive dissonance does hurt. I think the best way to help tankies escape is to offer alternative narratives grounded in reality and let the people who can get out find their way out. Don’t waste your time debating tankies all day. Plant some seeds and let them grow. You can’t force progress.

Also a lot of tankies are just teenagers who haven’t finished growing up. “You’re arguing with a minor online” became a meme for a reason.

dramaticcat,

Horseshoe theory in action

zaphodb2002,

Hey thanks for this, this is a very well thought out and insightful comment. As someone who grew up in progressive leftist environments, I have never understood how someone could get to AuthLeft. Your story helps me to personalize it. Good on you for thinking critically when presented with dangerous ideology. Hopefully I can empathize more the next time I get angry at tankie comments.

Rhoeri,
@Rhoeri@lemmy.world avatar

The point of defederating was so we wouldn’t have to see their dumb shit. Stop helping them out by posting this.

dramaticcat,

Do you know where you’re at?

YeetPics, (edited )
@YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

If they wanted to defederate why wouldn’t they do it on their own? These people are fucking insane.

Big “I didn’t even want to win” energy from this post.

Godric,

“Scratch anyone who disagrees with me, a Fascist bleeds”

-Lemmy.ml

spiderplant,

I mean if you’re antifascist then that’s true

meliante,

That reeks of neckbeardism.

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