essellburns,

Let’s make a list of all the ways Ukraine is different to Palestine.

We’ll be here a while.

oldGregg,
  1. Ukraine is 7 letters and Palestine is 9
Facebones,

Illuminati confirmed

TheAnonymouseJoker,
@TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml avatar

Ukraine and Israel share Zionist heads/presidents.

Palestine and Donbass share being continuous victims of genocide, bombing, land taken away, water and electricity cut, citizens harassed and so on.

Zoldyck,

I’ve seen so many stupid takes today, and this is one of them. The conflicts aren’t similar!

cyclohexane,

In what ways are they different that it justifies supporting Ukraine but not Palestine?

No one is saying they’re identical. But there are similarities.

Longpork_afficianado,

They’re not identical, but they have similarities. What Russia is trying to do to Ukraine is not dissimilar to what Israel did to Palestine half a century ago.

TheAnonymouseJoker,
@TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml avatar

You are wrong. What Ukraine has been doing to Donbass for years, is what Israel is doing to Palestine for almost a century.

webghost0101,

I am anti oppressors and warcryers, sympathic to defenders, protectors and the dead. sometimes who the oppressor charges. I know asking doesn’t help but like please everyone stop killing eachother…

bi_tux,
@bi_tux@lemmy.world avatar

Ukraine is simply more important to the countries bordering russia, the EU and it’s allies

camelbeard,

Ukraine is a sovereign nation that got attacked by another country.

Palestine just carried out a horrible attack on Israel. Plus the history of Israel and Palestine is totally different. It’s just apples and oranges. I’m not claiming in any way Israel is right here, but Hamas is definitely scum of the Earth.

rustycheesi3,

Cant they just give the whole land to the Arabs, declare Jerusalem as a religious state (like Vatican City) and create a new Capital for the new Palestine Land?

InputZero,

This is called the two state solution, and it’d be nice. It’s been tried and it failed, and that’s why Israel and Palestine are fighting now. It seems like the best solution but so far Israel has never agreed to it.

explodicle,

How did they try it if Israel never agreed?

InputZero,

The UN tried multiple times and sometimes there was some cooperation but obviously nothing worked out.

rustycheesi3,

again, Isreal is a pain in the butt 😮‍💨

neshura,

ho boy, here we go again.

At this point in time that conflict has been going on for so long, I have no clue anymore who started it. So all I can do is judge both sides by their current actions without historical justification which, to me, results in fanatical religious fascists fighting fanatical religious fascists with neither side caring for civilian casualties. Not exactly a situation in which I’d support any side tbh.

hopelessbyanxiety, (edited )

no historical context needed. History is not useful at all to understand current actions. Do your own research, but i can tell you The british supported jewish militias, to occupy that territory (under british control). That started the ethnic cleasing of palestinians in 1948, displacing millions. I dont know how to link stuff pls help me

camelbeard,

Also just looking at history isn’t going to solve anything. If that was the only solution we can just get any map remove all borders everywhere and discus how to draw them based on history. We all know this is just going to be a never ending discussion because it just depends on what snapshot in time (of the world) you take as your truth.

ComradeChairmanKGB,
@ComradeChairmanKGB@lemmygrad.ml avatar

At this point in time that conflict has been going on for so long, I have no clue anymore who started it.

You know very well who started it. You just want to pretend that historical facts are lost to the sands of time because they’re damaging to your centrist bullshit.

www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-184195/

atrielienz,

Just out of curiosity what do you think should happen? Should Israel just give up the land to Palestinians? Should Palestinians give up the land to Israel? Should they coexist and if so how do you see that happening? I really am asking because I really don’t understand how “how it started” is going to make a peaceful ending. I also don’t understand why anyone who isn’t from the locality and impacted by it should be stepping in for either side of what amounts to civil war. Especially not America who has a habit of doing so all over the world which usually ends badly for the people who live there when our puppet regimes tank.

ComradeChairmanKGB,
@ComradeChairmanKGB@lemmygrad.ml avatar

Israeli settlers should return to the country that they or their family came from originally. This is not like settlers in the America’s where we are talking 200+ years of families living there. This started after WW2 when the bigoted west could not bear to live with jews even after the holocaust, so they had to send them off on a settler project to other lands. Palestinian lands. Israelis should go back home, and the places they came from should pay for the reestablishing of their families. As well as paying reparations to Palestine. Isreal is not a legitimate nation. It is a colonial project occupying the nation of Palestine and the settlers must leave if there is to be peace.

atrielienz,

“Israeli settlers should return to the country that they or their family came from originally.”

Oh? How far back are we going here? What if their family originally came from Palestine? What happens then?

“This is not like settlers in the America’s where we are talking 200+ years of families living there.” This is an interesting point that is literally under contention right now because those people came from somewhere and we don’t even know who was here first because it changes every few years. How many years of settling constitute the land belonging to you?

Where did the Israeli people actually first come from. Go back far enough and crazily enough I think you’ll find that these people do have historical roots in this locality before WW2. This conflict spans probably close to a thousand years. Picking and choosing which bit of history supports your narrative doesn’t invalidate the rest of it.

ComradeChairmanKGB,
@ComradeChairmanKGB@lemmygrad.ml avatar

You are being ridiculous by pretending that Israel in antiquity is at all relevant to the current colonial project that was started within living memory. If the families originally came from Palestine then the people are Palestinian regardless of whatever ethnostate bullshit the settler government might have spouted to blur the lines. I am saying that any settler families who have gone to occupy Palestine in the last 80 years should return to their home nations. Anyone else is Palestinian, whether muslim, jewish, or otherwise. And would stay to live under the Palestinian nation.

atrielienz, (edited )

Why do you think this is a peaceful resolution? Why do you think those other countries will just open their arms and take back Israel’s? They don’t have home nations if they were born in Palestine.

This war is fueled by what amount to a religious disagreement. Pretending it’s not is kind of a garbage take and pretending it’s as easy as just send those people home is also garbage. You don’t see it that way because you’re looking at historical context of the last 100 years on purpose.

This is the equivalent of the movement in America who want to end birthright citizenship. It doesn’t make sense and it’s specifically tied to anti-immigration sentiment that ignores that essential the US is made up of immigrants. It’s similar to pretending Columbus discovered America when we know the Vikings were here before him and the Natives before them and so on.

Like. I’m not pro Israel. I actually think this is a conflict that can’t be one and both sides are wrong. But you seem to have drawn your line in the sand and therefore this conversation is over.

ComradeChairmanKGB,
@ComradeChairmanKGB@lemmygrad.ml avatar

Why do you think this is a peaceful resolution?

The current status quo of apartheid and genocide is not exactly leading to a peaceful resolution is it? Why must Palestinian survival and liberation be entirely bloodless? And why can settlers not leave without bloodshed?

Why do you think those other countries will just open their arms and take back Israel’s?

Luckily the settlers have had decades of looting Palestine, so they could afford to leave if necessary. An option that the Palestinian people have been denied by the exploitation and literal encirclement under apartheid.

They don’t have home nations if they were born in Palestine.

They have settled within living memory and know very well where they came from.

This war is fueled by what amount to a religious disagreement.

No the war is fueled by the continued expansion of a colonial ethnostate which is genociding the native population. You are the one spewing ahistorical garbage. You said as much in your top comment when you admitted to having no knowledge of the situations history. Edit- Sorry, I confused you with the first person, who claimed memory issues to pretend history started on Saturday. The rest of the point stands.

You don’t see it that way because you’re looking at historical context of the last 100 years on purpose.

You previously wanted to dilute the issue by examining things as far back as antiquity. Now you want to throw out historical analysis from the relevant time period because it’s inconvenient? Do you have any ideas at all or will you simply say whatever is required?

This is the equivalent of the movement in America who want to end birthright citizenship. It doesn’t make sense and it’s specifically tied to anti-immigration sentiment that ignores that essential the US is made up of immigrants.

This is not equivalent at all. Israeli settlers are currently genociding the native population. Whereas in America the current population are settlers who have nearly finished their genocide. Current immigrants to America are not genociding the population. How is that a take you just seriously put forward? Are you a white supremacist buying into great replacement theory?

Like. I’m not pro Israel.

You support the status quo that ends with the eradication of the Palestinian people and the dissolution of their state. How are you not pro Isreal?

But you seem to have drawn your line in the sand and therefore this conversation is over.

Yes it’s called having an actual position. But sure we can be done now that I’ve had a fair chance to speak.

S8N,

God damn… It must be hard having more chromosomes than brain cells. Is there freedom of religion in Palestine? Are women equal to men in Palestine? Are gays allowed to openly exist?

Will you get murdered for drawing a cartoon of Abraham or Moses in Israel?

Poor them, they were open to peaceful coexistence or a two-state solution but those evil Israelis said no… Oh wait.

Speaking of history and genocide, ever heard of Amin al-Husseini? There’s a pretty clear reason why he and Adolf got along so well.

I harbor mostly equal disdain for all religions but I’ve never heard of Jews giving people a choice between conversion or being executed.

PS, don’t bother replying, I’ve wasted enough time on your smooth-brained bullshit already.

atrielienz,

Thank you. There’s way too many people claiming one or the other side is justified or worse and frankly at this point they’ve both committed so many atrocities against one another that it’s hard to have an emotional or subjective response other than, they’re both pretty shitty.

ThereRisesARedStar, (edited )

Reminder that the OUN, which helped do the holocaust, used the phrase “Slava Ukraini” as their motto

KingThrillgore,
@KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml avatar

I’d keep my hand up

robot_dog_with_gun,

you should read about donbas from 2014-2021

Gabu,

Hurr durr, now that a palestinian terrorist group is attacking is the best moment to be vocal about palestinian freedom

And you people wonder why you get downvoted?

Omega_Haxors,

You’re telling on yourself. You genuinely don’t give a shit about the Palestinian struggle. You just want them to sit down and take their genocide.

Fades,

Perhaps they could sit down when it comes to killing innocent civvies and stick to military targets. I have always been outspoken in Palestine’s favor but lines were crossed and nobody should support it.

Omega_Haxors,

Yep, mask right off.

rustycheesi3,

i am not supporting it, but i have hard times defending israel either, both sides are an absolute shit show and have their reasons, but in my eyes, the palestines have a stronger claim to the land. then again, this whole war is based on religions, where i, as an atheist, have nothing to say at all, because without religions, there wouldnt be a claimable holy city and no war whos the truthful owner of it, it would just be another land.

ICastFist,
@ICastFist@programming.dev avatar

this whole war is based on religions

Not entirely, there is a lot of geopolitical power struggle there as well. Israel was born as a “western puppet” that soon grew and became “too important to abandon”. Without it, the arab nations would be more likely to ignore whatever the western powers demand, as they’d have a hard time reaching them. With Israel, it’s like a gun’s permanently pointed at them and “any funny business” against them means you also have to deal with USA

bigFab,

Try attacking military bases and armored vehicles with fireworks.

Read about war history. Civilian strikes are usually countered with opposite civilian strikes.

Sunforged,

Legitimatlly curious if 6 months has changed your perspective?

Gabu,

Not at all. That was still the wrong moment to do it. NOW (and for the past few months, since Israel began its full-blown open genocide) is the right time.

Sunforged, (edited )

Hey thanks for the response.

Has your opinion of Isreal changed because of the last few months? If so has that changed how you view their actions in the past against the Palestinian people?

If the comparison of Russia in Ukraine to Isreal in Palestine was only made legitimate in the past few months, then how do you view the Nakba?

Gabu,

Has your opinion of Isreal changed because of the last few months?

It changed insofar as going from “they’re a pretty horrible fascist society” to “they’re straight up Nazis”.

If so has that changed how you view their actions in the past against the Palestinian people?

Not really.

If the comparison of Russia in Ukraine to Isreal in Palestine was only made legitimate in the past few months […]

You’re commiting a fallacy, I believe and hope unintentionally. Israel has always been the aggressor, I’ve never contradicted that. However, defending a population associated with a vile terrorist group at a time said group has just attacked is simply bad politics - you’ll not get many allies and now your detractors have a concrete event to point towards when dismissing your position. At present, Israel has effectively admitted to wanting a genocide and Hamas has waved the white flag multiple times, so it’s the perfect moment, politically, to defend the Palestine.

TheBlue22,

You can’t compare these 2 conflicts at all.

Everythingispenguins, (edited )

Why? Because the west supports the occupied in one and the occupier in the other? Don’t forget the west expected Ukraine to be an occupied state with a gorilla insurgency within a few weeks at the start of the conflict.

Edit: because I am getting the expected hate. The Palestinians didn’t start out as Hamas. The extremism of Hamas was born out of the lack of action from former moderates. People will always become more extreme when they are met with a lack of action. That goes for the left and the right.

So ask yourself if someone came to your house and told you to leave how angry would you be? If you don’t understand this look up the actions of the Israeli settlements.

Manifish_Destiny,
TheBlue22,

Because Ukraine is not committing brutal crimes, not lobbing rockets randomly, hoping to kill anyone, civilian or not. Not hoping to eradicate their enemy (that is the stated goal of Hamas). Ukraine government is not in power because of violence, but because they were voted in. Hamas is in power only because they have weapons and other palestinians don’t (given to them by other extremist Muslims, who want to see Jews die).

So let me say it again, this conflict is not fucking comparable.

Everythingispenguins,

But Israel will do exactly that. If you want to condemn the killing of innocent people. You need to do it to both sides.

jpost.com/…/UNHRC-IDF-may-have-committed-war-crim…

www.nytimes.com/…/gaza-israel-children.html

hrw.org/…/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palest…

TheBlue22,

I am not pro Israel. You are just assuming that for no fuckig reason.

Israel is committing what could be easily called genocide in Gaza. Moving settlers in, pushing palestinians away from their homes, killing their kids, their fathers. Doing who knows what else.

I am against Zionist Israel and against Hamas.

I am for a state for both Jews and Palestinians.

You can have that position.

Unlike the Ukranian conflict, both of the fighting sides are in the wrong. There should be no fighting to begin with. Only innocents suffer.

Album,
@Album@lemmy.ca avatar

Yup don’t let them gaslight you buddy. This is how they do it.

Everythingispenguins,

Well then just ask yourself is a meme about the conflicts themselves or about the west’s condemnation of one powers imperialism while supporting the imperialism of another?

Phrodo_00,

I know what you mean and I also find western support of Israel appalling, but the meme is literally about the lack of support to Hamas, which makes sense given how they also like to randomly kill civilians.

BustinJiber,

How does the meme have anything to do with Hamas?

Jakeroxs,

Because timing probably

BustinJiber, (edited )

The meme has total of four words. How are you arriving at any conclusion on what the meme is about? It’s not even proper spelling according to Google translate.

TheBlue22,

Did I make the meme? Am I the west or something? For all you know, I could not even be in the global west.

Not once have I supported the imperialism, I called what’s Israel is doing a genocide for crying out loud.

Get a fucking reality check buddy.

Everythingispenguins,

Why are you so angry? I am not or ever attacking you. I never said you made the meme or where you live. Sorry for presenting you with an opinion that differs from yours.

TheBlue22,

Not angry, simply annoyed. Mostly because you keep assuming shit, preaching stuff that’s incredibly well known, especially in leftist circles and conflating 2 completely separate conflicts together as if they have any similarities.

Unlike you, I did think about the meme, and it makes absolutely no sense in reality we live in.

Everythingispenguins,

I never assumed anything about you and I definitely didn’t swear at you.

azulavoir,

objectively false

JokeDeity,

IMO everyone should leave everyone else the fuck alone and stop trying to be modern empires, but come on man, these are VERY different situations.

TheBeege, (edited )

(Edit: what I’m about to say is a good bit wrong, but I’m not going to try and hide my mistakes. This article has a more complete history: independent.co.uk/…/why-israel-and-palestine-conf…)

I don’t support the violence at all, but this isn’t a (direct) result of imperialism.

After WW2, the Allies were like, “what do we do with all these Jews? We don’t want them in our countries.” Then they thought, “why not Jerusalem?” But a bunch of Arabs were living there, but the Allies really didn’t want more Jews, so they just dumped them all in modern Israel, told the Arabs this is Jews’ land now, and recognized Israel as a state. Palestine has a right to be pissed. So this isn’t so much an imperialism problem as much as a racism problem.

But still, Hamas are evil fuckers that take shit too far. Israel definitely is not the good guy and is not helping the situation at all, but this kind of escalation just makes shit worse for everyone.

loutr,
@loutr@sh.itjust.works avatar

“why not Jerusalem?”

That wasn’t the allies, zionism predates the holocaust by decades, it’s the literal promised land from their stupid fucking religion.

pewgar_seemsimandroid,

Palestine needs a state and so does Israel

Omega_Haxors,

Broke: Two-state solution

Woke: One-state solution

Bespoke: Zero-state solution

Guydht,

Dude have you seen what Hamas did yesterday? Kidnapping children, women, elders. Even burnt houses to get families out of their homes to kidnap them. No matter how sympathetic you are towards palestinians, no one with a right conscious can support them.

jackmarxist,
@jackmarxist@lemmy.ml avatar

Israel has been doing this shit for decades. It’s just blowback of unending oppression by Israel. People in Palestine can either wait and get genocided or fight back.

GBU_28,

But Ukraine hasn’t done any of this type of stuff so the equivalence falls apart.

For the record: israel bad.

comrade_coyotl,

I mean they bombed the shit out of the Donbass for almost a decade before the war broke out, so yeah they were doing it too.

CommanderM2192,

Oh, so Israel has kidnapped German tourists in Gaza, raped them, murdered them, paraded their naked corpses through Tel Aviv, and spat on them?

JokeDeity,

Uh, almost certainly they have done that or something akin to it, I wouldn’t defend either side, they’ve both done countless atrocities to one another and people from outside.

yogthos,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

No, they just do this to Palestinian civilians, but since they don’t have blue eyes and blond hair racists such as yourself don’t consider them to be people.

Madison420,

Lol yup Israel has been taking down buildings for years taking people’s life, history and financial gain and turn it to rubble because someone in the building may have helped hamas. No trial, no questioning, just a small bomb going off on your roof too warn you to run the fuck away before you die in a collapsed building.

Lucidlethargy,

I’m confused… Are the only choices hamas or Israel? Is that how people really see things?

I fucking hate this world sometimes.

Titan,

Biden is 100% gonna support “Israel’s right to defend itself”, while they’ve been awfully quiet when Palestani people are getting murdered and their infrastructure decimated 🫣🤫

Fucking fascists

wabafee, (edited )

Both suck to be fair but Israel for me suck less. My reasoning mostly stem on their Ideology. Israel leans more to the US. Israel though recently leaning more to the extreme right, is still liberal compared to the rest of the nations in middle east. Woman has more freedom under Israel it seems. LGBT is more supported in Israel. For Hamas on the other hand has the same vibe for me with Taliban it doesn’t help that it is supported by Iran and Russia. As for Ukraine I support them since they lean more to the West (EU and the US) and they are more democratic than Russia. That’s my thought anyway.

ComradeChairmanKGB,
@ComradeChairmanKGB@lemmygrad.ml avatar

My reasoning mostly stem on their Ideology. Israel leans more to the US.

Mask off lmao

CloutAtlas,

Counterpoint: aligning with the west/the US is bad.

wabafee,

And why is that?

ComradeChairmanKGB,
@ComradeChairmanKGB@lemmygrad.ml avatar

All the genocide perhaps?

wabafee, (edited )

My reason is simple why I would align under the US, my country has mutual defense on them. The neighbouring country who is China claims major part of my country. The US offers free speech, they are willing to change no matter how slow. They may be messy but atleast they don’t prosecute their citizens for talking bad to their government. There is Women and LGBTQ rights. They got the big stick. What is your alternative?

Adkml,

“I support the fascistsdoing a genocide because they’re aligned with us and do our bidding” is the kind of honesty we’re looking for from liberals on foreign policy.

Genuinely, thank you for your honesty. Can you please tell the rest of the libs to communicate like this and we wouldn’t be as mean to them.

wabafee,

To be fair that is what both sides are doing China, Russia, US, EU, India and Iran. They all support those who do their bidding. Though I have a feeling everything is fascist on your dictionary that does not align with your view.

jackmarxist,
@jackmarxist@lemmy.ml avatar

So you support Israel committing genocide in Palestine because they lean west. Way to go lil bro

wabafee,

Curious, Tell me why should I support the Hamas instead?

jackmarxist,
@jackmarxist@lemmy.ml avatar

You should not. But you should see the conditions under which Hamas has formed and how the Occupiers are at fault for this. The greater Palestinian cause is far more in the moral right than Israel has ever been.

wabafee,

Thanks appreciate the answer.

Recant,

Emotional responses don’t lead to any solutions. Only reason will create a peaceful two state solution.

jackmarxist,
@jackmarxist@lemmy.ml avatar

The Victims should never bargain with the invaders. Slava Ukraini Slava Palestini.

yogthos,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

No surprise, given that genocide is the foundation of the western civilization.

absentthereaper,
@absentthereaper@lemmygrad.ml avatar

Is there a single western civilization that wasn’t built in the flesh, bones, blood, and bile of the colonized tho? Like, one.

TheAnonymouseJoker,
@TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml avatar

Yes.

I am still trying to find it, though. Error 404 keeps turning, help 😭

Count042, (edited )

Ireland, though they are extremely supportive of Palestine.

They understand what it takes to get a boot off of your neck.

ComradeChairmanKGB,
@ComradeChairmanKGB@lemmygrad.ml avatar

That’s because Ireland is a colonial victim, not a colonizer.

Evilsandwichman,

Weeeeeeell…I like the Irish and I think they’ve been awesome all around (the IRA and their support for Palestine), but even by their mythology they apparently did colonize their lands ages ago; something about defeating the Tuatha De Danann who themselves defeated the Fir Bolg and the Fomorians. The De Danann, Fir Bolg and Fomorians are depicted as inhuman beings but I personally think these were peoples who lived in extremely ancient Ireland who were defeated by the ancestors of modern day Irish people, but then, this would have been quite a few thousand years ago anyway and holding it against them would be silly (basically it was so long ago that it’s not even concrete whether this myth has any basis in reality and certainly no trace of those peoples, their culture and their civilizations still exist; also even if you decide to believe the myth has some basis in reality behind it, Irish culture has not been a culture of colonizers for the last several thousand years).

Vncredleader,
@Vncredleader@hexbear.net avatar

That’s not really a culture of colonizers even during the height of Ancient Erin. A possible analog for a past group that very well could be a stand-in for inter proto-Irish conflicts as much as inter Gaelic ones is so tenuous at best. Most cultures have something like this, and it would be tantamount to saying there was an inherent colonial culture in the Ho-Chunk people because the Wąge-rucge man-eaters might be a cultural memory of another tribe their ancestors fought against.

There is a world of difference between human migration and conflicts arising therein and what we would identify as colonialism. Why even bring it up as such? Plus the Tuatha De Danann from even a quick search seem to be theorized to be Gaelic gods recontextualized into a post-Christianization culture. So it is literally not even from a culture of colonizers, but the reformatting of their own beliefs to a context of a cultural conversion. They seem to have come to mean “folk” or people much later and originally the term implied godliness. And then there is the PIE stuff and war between gods with humans in the middle which is foundational to a ton of places meaning it could either be remnants of a way more ancient myth shared with the Vedic and Norse etc, or a recontextualization of unique traditions subconsciously along the same lines as more eastern Europeans and Indo-European cultures. Least that’s how I view the Iliad elements in Irish myth, maybe a shared tradition or more likely later writers put characters and stories into a structure they already knew, ie the most recited myth in Europe.

We really need to be careful with history and modern terminology/conceptions. Cultures did not really remove one another necessarily, nor can we accurately talk about Bronze-Age and earlier cultures in strictly defined terms. We use names given to types of pottery we find to describe a general human presence in a large area across thousands of years. It is broad and ambiguous on purpose. Hell even more recent cases like the Germanic “colonization” of Celtic England is WAY more ambiguous than previous historians thought.

For that history and a good object lesson on how complicated human migration is to decode there is a great video by CambrianChronicles on Brythonic Britons and how they never disappeared www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FHRTpEhaAs

And that’s not to say that there was not a colonization and resistance in that case, far from it. There we have a material understanding of both cultures that can be defined even if the lines between the people of them is nonexistent in a practical sense. CambrianChronicles has several videos including one I LOVE on Arthur that drive home how originally Welsh/Briton Arthur was essentially a propaganda character for anti-imperialist movements. My point is the distinctions quickly disappear and framing there as being such a thing as “culture of colonizers” in a time when people hardly if at all identified themselves as having a culture is silly, applying it as far back as the etymological history and patchwork shifts in linguistic groups of the Bronze age is downright ahistoric. Especially with Celts, the very definition of which is hotly debated.

Another good POV is the short but wonderful history of the Bronze Age Collapse “1177: the year civilization ended” which shows some amazing research on how crises cause mass migration and why old models of how ancient Greeks came to Greece are pretty off base, with what was thought to be an invasion from the west by the Dorians might’ve been large refugee movements from Asia Minor which coincided with populations from Mycenean Greece fleeing eastward due to their problems. Heck the Sea Peoples are very possibly a phenomenon of various refugee crises and/or desperate moves by kingdoms we know for sure about trying to stay alive during what must’ve felt like an apocalypse.

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