How does employing a rapist not constitute an unsafe work environment for female employees?

So I just discovered that I have been working next to the waste of oxygen that raped my best friend several years ago. I work in a manufacturing environment and I know that you can’t fire someone just for being a sex offender unless it directly interferes with work duties (in the US). But despite it being a primarily male workforce he does work with several women who have no idea what he is. He literally followed a woman home, broke into her house, and raped her. Him working here puts every female employee at risk. How is that not an unsafe working environment? How is it at even legal to employ him anywhere where he will have contact with women?

badlotus,

I think it might be easier for OP to reason through this question by themselves if the person in question hadn’t “raped [their] best friend”. I support restorative justice… unfortunately in the USA we often get neither restorative justice nor justice, just punishment.

ParsnipWitch,

What do you think can restorative justice look like for crimes like torture (that is what rape is)?

badlotus,

An argument from ignorance that ends in a false equivalence.

transientpunk,
@transientpunk@sh.itjust.works avatar

I just found out that if you are caught having sex in prison (in the USA), you are guilty of a sex crime regardless of if both adults consented or not.

This is only tangentially related to OPs post, but I just thought it was interesting.

Maggoty,

I’m going to need a source to believe that. Any sex between guards and inmates is automatically considered rape now, but between prisoners?

kirklennon, (edited )

I know that you can’t fire someone just for being a sex offender unless it directly interferes with work duties (in the US)

You can definitely fire someone for being a sex offender in the US. Outside of a few exceptions that probably don't apply in your case, you can also fire someone for being merely an accused sex offender.

You can also fire someone for laughing in a weird way, or wearing a color you don't like, or being born on a Monday when you don't like Mondays.

Xtallll,
@Xtallll@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

In the US you can be fired for any reason except for protected reasons (gender, sexuality, race, religion). Being a convicted sex offender is not a protected class.

Adulated_Aspersion,

*in a right to work stste

tjhart85,
tjhart85 avatar

In a right to work stste

Some cities and counties have additional protections, but at the state level, the only one that's not at-will is Montana and the entire population of that state would fit in a single decently sized city. So, I think that's a distinction that wasn't really necessary, but you do you.

Xariphon,

In an at-will state, which I think is most or all of them.

Right-to-work is different; it means you can't be required to join a union in order to take a job.

metaStatic,

people don't think it be like it is but it do.

anti-discrimination laws just mean employers can't give the real reason so they've gotten really good at making up legally acceptable reasons.

ilinamorato, (edited )

And in right to work “at-will” states, not even that much.

SatanicNotMessianic,

“Right to work” means employees can work in a union shop and receive the benefits of such without having to join the union or pay dues. It’s a set of laws that have successfully destroyed unions.

You’re thinking of “at will” employment laws, which means an employer can fire an employee for any reason or for no reason, but not for an illegal reason (which varies depending on state but includes the right to organize and rights against discrimination and retaliation).

ilinamorato,

Oh, of course. Thank you for pointing that out.

SatanicNotMessianic,

Sorry - I should have realized others would point that out as well. I didn’t mean to pile on.

ilinamorato,

No worries, I assumed it was done in good faith and appreciated the heads up. Thanks!

AnyOldName3,
@AnyOldName3@lemmy.world avatar

You’re thinking of at-will employment states. Right to work is about joining unions and making that difficult.

ilinamorato,

Ah right. Thank you for pointing that out.

BottleOfAlkahest,

You mean “at-will” states and that functionally means any state but Montana.

ilinamorato,

Indeed.

BottleOfAlkahest,

Many US based companies also do pre-employment background checks. So either OP works for a company that doesn’t or they work for a “second chance” company that is OK with violent backgrounds. Either way the company is fine with his background and is very unlikely to fire him for something they likely knew about at hire.

Harbinger01173430,

He had his redemption arc and now is a better human being than 95% of his co-workers. Duh.

Draedron,

He needs to work somewhere and as long as he doesnt continue to harass or worse anyone I dont see the issue

BambiDiego,

Yes, but also keep your guard up and trust your instincts. It sucks, but life is messy.

ParsnipWitch,

The average user of Lemmy has more empathy with a two times convicted rapist than with Amber Heard or that one woman from this atrocious Tiger King series.

minibyte,

I thought for sure this was about Trump.

Quitmuch1938,

deleted_by_author

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  • sploosh,

    Trump raped E. Jean Carol.

    Quitmuch1938,

    deleted_by_author

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  • curiousaur,

    No they didn’t.

    Quitmuch1938,

    deleted_by_author

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  • dangblingus,

    Right, how do you think he sexually assaulted her 30 years ago? They didn’t have the evidence to support full blown penetrative rape because any fluids or internal damage to her body would have long been healed over or ejected. The SA liability came with an $83.3M price tag. Do you get slapped with a punishment like that for grabbing a boob?

    Quitmuch1938,

    deleted_by_author

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  • in4aPenny,

    You could win this argument if only you could link a reference to your sources. It’s not up to us to look up evidence for your claims, it’s up to you to provide evidence for your argument.

    curiousaur,

    It did not say it’s not rape. Rape is a criminal term to be used in criminal court. Sexual Assault is the civil court term for rape. He was not punished, he was sued.

    What college did you go to kiddo? You seem real dim.

    Quitmuch1938,

    deleted_by_author

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  • curiousaur,

    No part of that says he did not do it, which is your claim. Are you illiterate?

    Quitmuch1938,

    deleted_by_author

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  • chiliedogg,

    The Court was required to use softer language because the violent sex crime he committed and is unapologetic about was committed in the 90s.

    There’s a statue of limitations that prevents him from being criminally charged. But as part of a defamation case a jury found that there was sufficient evidence to determine that Trump knowingly and intentionally lied when he said he didn’t rape her.

    Which is to say - a jury unanimously ruled that he committed the act that would be would otherwise be called rape, but because of a legal technicality can’t be. Not everyone on that Jury was a liberal, woke Democrat. There were Republicans that heard testimony and saw evidence and determined that he forced a woman to have sex against her will.

    He did it. The he got successfully sued again for lying about it more and lashing out against his victim.

    In every way that matters when evaluating someone’s character, he’s an unrepentant, vengeful rapist.

    curiousaur,

    That does not mean he didn’t do it. You need a brush up on your 3rd grade reading comprehension.

    Quitmuch1938,

    deleted_by_author

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  • curiousaur,

    Yes we do. He raped her. He is a rapist. OJ is a killer and trump is a rapist. Escaping justice does not mean you didn’t do it.

    Quitmuch1938,

    deleted_by_author

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  • Yearly1845,

    Lol according the presiding judge, Donald Trump is a certified rapist: businessinsider.com/donald-trump-rape-e-jean-carr…

    SolarMech,

    THIS.

    All the rest of this conversation is pedantic nonsense (on both sides, I might add).

    It’s like if the law decided that only fire brick red as defined by this website is red : html-color.codes/red

    And then someone on lemmy said “the court said your car isn’t red”. And then we’d have to spend a half hour and an incredibly long post to explain how courts sometimes use different definitions for words that people use in normal conversation, and to be careful how you interpret that.

    Bottom line is Trump did what everyone else is calling rape.

    curiousaur,

    That is false. Again. You keep saying the same thing and you keep being wrong. Not proving he’s a rapist does not means he not one. Please go back you school you complete dunce.

    Quitmuch1938,

    deleted_by_author

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  • curiousaur,

    False. Again. Being unable to prove something true does not make that thing false. The ONLY reason it can’t be proven true is because of how long ago he did it.

    Holyginz,

    He raped her, therefore he is a rapist. What are you not getting here

    Kbobabob,

    Isn’t everything?

    PeckerBrown,

    In his mind, yeah.

    Crackhappy,
    @Crackhappy@lemmy.world avatar

    I hate to say this, but do you know what he’s done to rehabilitate himself? Do you know why he’s allowed to work there? Have you talked to management about what you discovered?

    All of your questions are very very leading. Of course we deplore rape. However, despite what you may think, we should all be given a chance to redeem ourselves.

    I can understand why you fear for the safety of yourself and others around you. If you do nothing, that is entirely on you. But I do hope that you have compassion and a sense of forgiveness in your heart too. For all you know, you can also be surrounded by thieves and murderers, but none of those are publicly branded.

    I urge you to bring this to the management’s attention. Talk to your female coworkers and let them know.

    A_Random_Idiot,

    All of your questions are very very leading. Of course we deplore rape. However, despite what you may think, we should all be given a chance to redeem ourselves.

    There are a few crimes that are not forgivable, where you lose all right to any benefit of the doubt and should be labeled as dangerous, suspicious, and existential threat for the rest of your life.

    Premeditated Rape is one of those crimes.

    Premeditated rape is not a accident. its not a crime of passion. it is a deliberate, multi-step action that result in harming and violating another human being in one of the worst ways possible. There were so many points in which any shred of basic human decency that existed in his body could have asserted itself and changed his course, but it didnt. He followed through multiple steps in the process to follow and ultimately violate and his victim in one of the worst ways a person can harm another human being. Because he is a predator, and a threat.

    Regardless of his time in jail, he is a threat. he will always be a threat. There is no one around him that is not at risk.

    and worse still, because hes already been caught once, he will have learned… and the chances of the next victim escaping alive are slimmer for it.

    There is no redemption arc that can unrape his victim, and erase the threat he poses.

    HawlSera,

    The concept of Redemeption is sadly one that barely exists nowadays. While the crime of rape is unforgivable, a wise woman once said “If Hell is forever, then Heaven’s a lie.”

    If we don’t let people have a chance to better themselves and prove that they aren’t the monsters they used to be, then we condemn them to return to their most toxic behaviors.

    That said, if someone has a history of vile behavior, then it’s best to warn those you feel can minimize his harm or are vulnerable. He needs to be given a chance for redemption and self-betterment, but he can’t be given free reign either.

    ParsnipWitch,

    In the absolute majority of rape cases there is no bettering themselves happening because the rapists never face any consequences to begin with.

    mechoman444,

    Look. I get it. But, understand the only reason you feel that way is because you haven’t committed a crime severe enough for you to do any significant time.

    Recidivism for rape is 13% to 35% Link to source

    I would seriously recommend checking your privilege on this one.

    i_like_birds,

    Check your privilege? He just said this person followed a woman home and raped her. His best friend. And that he’s worried for female coworkers. All valid feelings. I’m guessing you’re a man and don’t have to fear sexual assault. Check YOUR privilege.

    pinkdrunkenelephants, (edited )

    His attitude answers OP’s questions most succinctly.

    Rape is low-key respected and condoned.

    pinkdrunkenelephants,
    Landsharkgun,

    Posting this seperately: OP, you have a right to feel unsafe. Talk with your other coworkers, then go to managment with a safety plan. You probably can’t get this guy fired, but it’s completely reasonable to ask for some sort of safeguards, given he’s a multiple offender. If you need inspiration, look at the sort of practices medical facilities have: multiple people required to be in the room, clear boundaries being set, agreed-upon followup if rules are broken, etc.

    dangblingus,

    They didn’t say that he was a multiple offender, just to clarify.

    Cyberflunk,

    You. Don’t. Matter. Your employer is disgusted they have to pay you. They are your enemy, treat them as such. I’m not talking about your coworker (although dropping a chair on a rapist is understandable), the business however needs you to fail and be on life support so you can only accept their wage.

    Legally fuck your company up from the inside.

    AlteredEgo,

    Sorry that must be really horrible working near someone like that. I’m also sorry there are a lot of shitty comments. It’s quite shocking he only served 2 years.

    You could ask an attorney, it’s possibly you could already sue your employer. There are also surely people or groups who have experience with this kind of thing.

    Maggoty,

    Talk to a lawyer for sure. Don’t be surprised when they tell you there is no recourse just on those facts though.

    solitaire,
    @solitaire@infosec.pub avatar

    If you aren’t going to find a new job, document any inappropriate behavior. Talk to the other women and get them onboard. Let them know who he is. It wont take much to have him out on his ass if he does anything. Bring up his conviction when you report misconduct as well.

    There are plenty of jobs he can work that aren’t with the best friend of his victim.

    WaxedWookie,

    This is an understandable sentiment, but telling everyone about the charges for which this person has served their sentence in order to rally the rest of the workplace to look for ways to get them sacked is super-likely to see you face consequences for bullying.

    If you don’t want to work with this person, consider explaining the circumstances to HR (noting that your friend was a victim), and say it’ll be too traumatic to work alongside them. This seems like a reasonable request to me, which should be accommodated - particularly if HR are already aware of the conviction.

    If you want vengeance, figure out a way that isn’t going to put your livelihood in jeopardy. Don’t squeeze more negative consequences out of an already shitty situation.

    Finally, you need to consider the society you’re advocating for - if we’re abandoning the rule of law to keep people out of work and unable to support themselves after serving their time, we’re relegating them to be either wards of the state or homeless. We’ve already seen the issues caused by felons being barred from voting and its interplay with racial and political dynamics - how do you think manufacturing a desperate criminal underclass will work out for society?

    OceanSoap,

    Great comment.

    pinkdrunkenelephants,

    Wow, holy shit 🤣 Okay, let’s break this down:

    This is an understandable sentiment, but telling everyone about the charges for which this person has served their sentence in order to rally the rest of the workplace to look for ways to get them sacked is super-likely to see you face consequences for bullying.

    Uniting with other people who feel the same way isn’t bullying, it’s a sign the complaint is legitimate. If a group of people complaining about another coworker is bullying, then nothing could be done about anyone. And they couldn’t unionize either.

    Bottom line is, employees coming together over a common problem, even one employee rallying others, is done for many legitimate reasons, situations like this included. Even if you don’t agree with anything standing in the way of a known rapist working around women.

    If you don’t want to work with this person, consider explaining the circumstances to HR (noting that your friend was a victim), and say it’ll be too traumatic to work alongside them. This seems like a reasonable request to me, which should be accommodated - particularly if HR are already aware of the conviction.

    Which will force the victim, or potential victim, to cede territory to the rapist, enabling the rapist to continue harming others. 🤔 Legally, it may or may not benefit OP depending on how they respond, but it’s really not asking enough. They need to ask for the rapist to be moved. For which they’ll need the backing of other people.

    If you want vengeance, figure out a way that isn’t going to put your livelihood in jeopardy.

    No one even mentioned vengeance. Strawman elsewhere.

    Don’t squeeze more negative consequences out of an already shitty situation.

    Hahaha you just come right the fuck out and say it.

    No negative consequences for rape allowed, rapists should be able to rape and live their lives unabated.

    And if we say otherwise, well, negative consequences might come upon us.

    Finally, you need to consider the society you’re advocating for -

    Ironically I agree with you. This is a horrifying authoritarian slave racket masquerading as a representative democracy, which is run by rapists. And we unironically do have to consider their feelings, because they are the cops, judges and employers who tell others what to do and can do anything they want to you with no consequences. If we let offenders experience consequences on others for doing terrible things, that means they might have to face the music, and we all know they shouldn’t have to handle that.

    No man should have to experience consequences for rape. It’d be too much of a threat to the society that built itself on rape.

    if we’re abandoning the rule of law to keep people out of work and unable to support themselves after serving their time, we’re relegating them to be either wards of the state or homeless. We’ve already seen the issues caused by felons being barred from voting and its interplay with racial and political dynamics - how do you think manufacturing a desperate criminal underclass will work out for society?

    1. A company is not an agent of the law and what it does has no bearing on the rule of law
    2. Banning rapists from working around women in no wa would break the rule of law if it was an actual law. We already have sex offender registries and yet somehow the world will keep on turning
    3. Rapists can go take jobs that doesn’t require them to be around other people.
    4. Blackmailing and threatening us with the implied threat of harm from disenfranchised rapists is the exact same vengeance you accuse your opponents of having. You literally became exactly what you claim to hate. You. The one wielding it like an emotional cudgel when no one brought it up. But it is certainly like you to project your faults onto others. It’s what rape apologists do, after all.
    WaxedWookie,

    Would you like me to point out why your nonsense is nonsense, or would you rather take the opportunity walk back the things (I assume) you said because you were using me as a proxy for your dislike of the way reality works?

    Helpful hint: Responding to this requires one line not 20 paragraphs.

    pinkdrunkenelephants,

    I would like you to stop being a rape apologist and actually think about someone other than yourself.

    Helpful hint: Responding to this requires one line not 20 paragraphs.

    You wouldn’t know it for the walls of text you and your ilk have been dropping on people in the thread non-stop all day, but sure, go ahead and completely ignore everything you were told so you can avoid facing how monstrous your stance is.

    Hopefully you won’t ever be in a situation like OP. But then again, if you were, you’d destroy your relationships with your coworkers defending the rapist, so 🤷

    Crackhappy,
    @Crackhappy@lemmy.world avatar

    You said what I intended to say much more eloquently than I could. Thanks.

    Maggoty,

    How are you expecting him to feed himself if he can’t work anywhere? There’s no such thing as a men’s only work place.

    I agree that rape should be charged with the same severity as taking a life. But we also need to let ex felons leave that in the past if they can. There’s a lot of abuse and oppression that results from permanent shunning. We made the choices in our justice system that we made because of history. Let’s not repeat the mistakes of history.

    Chakravanti,

    Fuck you.

    lunachocken,

    Any reason or just being a blatant idiot?

    Chakravanti, (edited )

    You’re being the jackass supporting the tyrrany enslaving everyone.

    Maggoty,

    Okay. Let’s just keep all the prisoners locked up forever. Well wait, that’s kind of expensive. Let’s force them to work. You know they’re going to have kids, and both parents are no good evil people so the kids must be too. Let’s never let the kids out either.

    Congratulations, you’ve re-invented chattel slavery. With the exact same argument of banishing felons from society that was used in the 1600’s and eventually evolved into chattel slavery.

    Can we do the civil war now too or do we have to wait?

    Chakravanti,

    You got shit backwards. War is now. Deny or don’t still happening.

    Maggoty,

    This isn’t a civil war. I’ve seen a civil war. And this is nowhere close.

    Chakravanti,

    That’s not what I said.

    Maggoty,

    Me - … Civil War…

    You - … war is now…

    Me - … Civil War…

    You - Not what I was talking about!

    Are you just being purposely obtuse then?

    Chakravanti,

    I didn’t say civil. Can you just not read the fucking obvious?

    Also, stop lying with your shitty not quote quotes.

    Maggoty,

    So purposely obtuse it is. I sincerely hope you have a nice day.

    Chakravanti,

    No. You don’t read. And you make shit up when you read other people’s words and assume you know when you don’t fucking read what’s right the fuck in front of you. Asshole.

    pinkdrunkenelephants,

    So if we protect our communities, we’ll enable slavery. So if we don’t want slavery, we have to expose ourselves to rapists.

    Yeah, no, you can take your inflammatory, enabling garbage and shove it.

    Imprison rapists for life. Stop letting them out in society. Don’t let situations like OP’s happen in the first place.

    Maggoty,

    It’s not an either/or situation. But congratulations. You are the second or third person to respond with a ridiculous logical fallacy.

    pinkdrunkenelephants,

    It is to you because that is how you framed it. Re-read what you wrote. You and your cult have offered nothing but logical fallacies, especially Motte and Baileys, strawmen, transparent threats, and talking points for an anti-justice, anti-victim, anti-woman political agenda. And you do it because you don’t care about rape victims or their lives, and you don’t care about OP, you’re here on your hustle looking to push an agenda.

    And I am telling you NO. Get the fuck on. Get off our lawn.

    Maggoty,

    Uh huh. Sure and which of those have you observed in my posting?

    Because draconian punishments are typically associated with conservative political positions. Hardly the bastion of women’s rights. And above is the real history of how slavery in the American Colonies was started. It was successive pushes for harsher and harsher punishments until they just decided to take the mask off.

    Forgive me if I don’t want that to happen again.

    pinkdrunkenelephants,

    Look all around the thread. You goons have been at it the entire day. But we both know you don’t actually give a shit. You’ll step all over whoever you have to to get what you want, including rape victims, assuming you don’t brainwash them into your disgusting little cult first.

    Because draconian punishments are typically associated with conservative political positions. Hardly the bastion of women’s rights. And above is the real history of how slavery in the American Colonies was started. It was successive pushes for harsher and harsher punishments until they just decided to take the mask off.

    Draconian punishments have nothing to do with the thread.

    Neither do conservatives or petty red vs. blue politics.

    This shit is exactly what I’m talking about. You took a real and serious issue: workers being exposed to the presence of a known sexual predator in the workplace in a situation they can’t easily escape, jeopardizing the safety of everyone in that place, and you made it all about YOU. All about your overdramatized and blatant strawmen, all about your own warped assumptions and biases – I’m not even right wing – and you created this monstrosity of a straw… caricature of an opponent for you to bash the hell out of.

    All so you can endanger innocent workers by exposing them to a rapist.

    Because what you’re demanding is wrong and you KNOW it. 🤦

    You’re fucking monstrous. Your spirit is hideous.

    pinkdrunkenelephants,

    Or we can accept the past actually does matter, protect our communities and offenders can be the ones to accept the short end of the stick.

    You know, like a sane society

    xe3,

    Sounds more like a backwards medieval society than a ‘sane society’.

    Most modern and sane societies have a concept of rehabilitation and have found that we are all better off when a justice system is centered on rehabilitation and addressing the roots of crime at a deeper level, beyond just punishment, punishment is not very effective on its own.

    pinkdrunkenelephants, (edited )

    That’s because your idea of a sane society is a rape culture patriarchy where men can do what they want and women have to put up with it. We have a term for what you’re asking for. It’s called a slave racket.

    And we’re not your slaves.

    Rehabilitation and punishment have nothing to do with what OP is talking about and in modern and sane societies, rapists aren’t allowed to work alongside their victims. But sadly, there are very few modern and sane societies, if any, because the truth is you all want to rape, benefit from rape, and benefit from seeing others raped. You’re just evil. There’s no way around that.

    You’re just looking for excuses to protect a rapist. You’re sick.

    KrankyKong,

    How can you say all that when you don’t even know what the victim was wearing?

    pinkdrunkenelephants,

    Please tell me you’re joking. Please. For my sanity

    KrankyKong,

    I am not serious, lol. Can I ask how you think we as a society should handle these individuals? I know you said that they “should get the short end of the stick”. Does that mean execution? Life-imprisonment?

    pinkdrunkenelephants,

    Are you being serious about that question?

    TheRealKuni,

    If you don’t allow people to have second chances, then recidivism rates skyrocket. Being tough on crime creates more crime (and more prisoners).

    Look at the Scandinavian prison model. Reform is what ought to be the focus.

    But in the US, recidivism is kind of the goal. After all, we need to keep the for profit prisons full.

    pinkdrunkenelephants, (edited )

    If you dress up enabling rapists, who do not belong in the community, through flowery rhetoric, you deny that second chance to everyone else.

    Society doesn’t owe rapists anything. It owes everyone else their safety. If the rapist doesn’t like it, they should not have raped anyone. If you don’t like the fact that your rapist friend is ostracized from the community, you should stop being friends with rapists.

    This is why we need to throw rapists in jail for life, and quite frankly, to start jailing their enablers, so communities can rebuild and the trauma from those acts can heal.

    MonkRome,

    When did the person you responded to say they were friend with rapists. When you resort to ad hominem attacks on peoples character, you’re signalling to everyone you have already lost the argument and have nothing of value left to say, just take the L.

    pinkdrunkenelephants,

    Well, when did anyone say they were ostracizing a rapist? You want to talk about logical fallacies, you best look at yourself and your compatriots here.

    Firing them from a job like that, where they have to work closely with women and have the opportunity to reoffend, isn’t ostracization the way you’re flagrantly exaggerating it to be. It’s called common sense.

    The other employees have every right to fear being raped because there is a known sexual predator in the workplace. It’s a specific and credible fear that not only is grossly immoral if the company doesn’t act, it also will put them in a position of extreme liability. That scumfuck should never have gotten past the background check in the first place.

    And you don’t care about that because all you care about is yourself. Because like the other apologists here, you’re thinking from a perspective of “But what if I get caught?” and that means you believe you or someone you know will rape someone someday – and you’ll keep them in your life anyway, because you don’t care about justice or morality, you only care about shielding your friends from consequences.

    MonkRome,

    Seriously, that was my only comment and now I’m also a rapist according to you. This is something else, I can’t say I’ve ever encountered someone this toxic on Lemmy since I’ve been here. You extrapolated all sorts of things I never said from 2 sentences.

    Not that you are remotely deserving of a respectful response at this point, but I’ll still give you my thoughts:

    I’ve been sexually assaulted and have had people close to me be sexually assaulted and raped. The insinuation that I am a rapist would be personally harmful to me and retraumatizing if I wasn’t aware that you are doing this because you are unable to articulate your opinions on the matter effectively, so you resort to insults. I totally understand the visceral need and desire for vengeance and justice when you or someone close to you is the victim of vile acts. There is someone I grew up acquainted with that if I saw them again in person I would have an intense desire to cause physical pain because of what they did to people close to me. I totally understand the desire for vengeance, and I suspect everyone else on this thread does too.

    With that said, when societies make rules you have to decide what the goal is. Is the goal vengeance and punishment, is the goal a better future for society in general, or is it a little of both. We have the sum total of human experience to look back on, we can see what societies systems of punishment result in better outcomes for society at large. We know what systems of punishment result in recidivism more often, what systems result in rehabilitation more often, and we know what systems perpetuate a cycle of violence that never ends. We don’t rehabilitate criminals and sex offenders for their sake, we rehabilitate them for societies sake. Because we can conclusively show that if systems of punishment make it their goal to rehabilitate instead of get vengeance, it usually breaks the cycle of violence whether it be physical or sexual. You’re basically saying you would prefer vengeance, even if it is at the expense of sexual and physical violence being perpetuated through society generation after generation.

    I strongly suggest you read this article: firststepalliance.org/…/norway-prison-system-less….

    Norway has the lowest recidivism rate in the world exactly because the treat their criminals like human beings. Guess who wins, all of the non-criminals that enjoy one of the lowest crime rates in the world.

    pinkdrunkenelephants, (edited )

    deleted_by_moderator

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  • thecrotch,

    For profit prisons are creepy and ought to be illegal, but they’re also a small percentage of US prisons. They’re not to blame for the high prison population. They’re another symptom.

    Maggoty,

    What kind of society are we going to have if we do that though? Societies with forever punishments are worse places to live specifically because it ends up being used as a weapon. It gets easier and easier to get that forever punishment because this exact argument gets deployed for lower and lower offenses. Your three options are slavery, banishment, or death. And it’s usually for an ulterior motive like votes or money. Humans have tried all three in the past and they’ve all led to more heartbreak and violence than they’ve stopped.

    A sane society wants and works towards peace. You get peace with rehabilitation and treatment.

    pinkdrunkenelephants, (edited )

    A better one.

    See, in the real world where adults pay bills, your actions have consequences. Those actions tend to be for everyone else and are extremely damaging if you rape them, so what sane societies do is prioritize the interests of the victims and the community at large over the rapist. They imprison or preferably execute the rapist, to guarantee they cannot hurt members of the community anymore without forcing the community to bear the burden of the rapist’s presence, for their mere presence is now a problem.

    Communities do not owe anything to rapists and are under no responsibility to integrate people like that into it. The act of doing that endangers a community because now they have to live alongside a rapist.

    Communities have a large moral obligation to establish a Moral Event Horizon and accept that individuals who do horrific things like rape don’t belong in it anymore regardless of circumstance. The community has to be willing to discriminate who can participate or not based on actions. That’s what a community does to maintain itself.

    A community unwilling to do this is an unprincipled one that usually just thinks rape is morally acceptable or at least necessary to reproduce. A community unwilling to permanently remove a rapist for any reason is just, quite frankly, an evil one.

    Rapists don’t have a permanent right to participate in the community. The idea that they do has destroyed our society. You have to earn the privilege to participate through following the laws and good action, and if you refuse, you can no longer participate in the community.

    Communities have an obligation to establish rules and enforce them through threat of losing the ability to participate.

    It’s not hard when you don’t enable rapists.

    puppy,

    Let’s say we agree on your governance model. There are non-trivial cases of men falsely been accused of rape by women. Some have even been convicted and their innocence proved many years later. How does your governance model that proposes execution of the convicted account for this?

    pinkdrunkenelephants,

    It literally doesn’t matter because this isn’t a discussion of the death penalty. This is an individual asking about a serious situation at work you deliberately ran off the rails to push a political agenda. Take your anti-justice garbage and shut it.

    Oh, and by the way, OP’s friend being expected to work alongside their rapist functionally is worth than death.

    puppy,

    They imprison or preferably execute the rapist, to guarantee they cannot hurt members of the community anymore

    It does matter because you brought it up, this is what you said, word for word. Do you hope your proposed legal framework to be implemented at any point in time and therefore willing to give it some serious thought or are you just venting?

    pinkdrunkenelephants,

    It doesn’t matter because the only reason I even replied was because I didn’t realize you were purposefully derailing the thread to push an agenda, and using OP and his serious, personal situation to do it.

    You and your goons have said, all over the thread, the most vile, disgusting, anti-woman shit, because the truth is you condone rape and don’t want to see other males suffer for it. It didn’t occur to you that you could suffer such a thing and have no recourse. You clearly dismiss the extreme moral crime of expecting a victim’s friend and potential victims to suffer under circumstances like that – of course, everyone else in that place can just go find another job, right? Rapists have the right to work wherever they want but not good, normal people. The world revolves around you and your ilk, after all.

    You’re quite simply a rape apologist. There’s no way around it. And so are the mods of this sub apparently.

    puppy,

    You parrot the same thing over and over again without answering any of questions directed to you. I was asking about innocent people, not rapists. You want to execute rapists, sure fine. What about the wrongly convicted? You haven’t even spared sentence for them amongst all your ramblings. If you are serious about seeing what you’re preaching implemented, the wrongly convicted has to be addressed. If you are not going to accept that your ramblings are just that. Ramblings.

    Crackhappy,
    @Crackhappy@lemmy.world avatar

    I respectfully disagree. Murder is not at the same level as rape. Rape is awful and despicable, but at least you’re alive to recover from it.

    Maggoty,

    That’s the thing, many people never recover from rape.

    L1to,

    I think more people don’t recover from death compared to rape

    Maggoty,

    I’m not arguing that lol. But many people would literally rather be killed than raped and it’s frequently cited as one of the things, “worse than death”.

    It should absolutely be punished similarly.

    aidan,
    1. Many is not anywhere near all.
    2. That is an option for the victim in a rape still, there is no option for the victim in a murder.
    HerbalGamer,
    @HerbalGamer@sh.itjust.works avatar

    That sounds like a great way to make all rapists murderers.

    pinkdrunkenelephants,

    That sounds like a blatant threat and attempt at emotional blackmail

    Maggoty, (edited )

    No. There’s a psychological barrier to killing, even in the mind of a criminal. That’s why most murders are actually people who knew each other and had enough emotion to overcome that barrier or people who were scared/abused enough that the barrier was no longer there. (It goes away as a defense mechanism)

    HawlSera,

    Yes, but statistically speaking the amount of people who recover from murder (being around 0 to 1, depending on if the Resurrection of Christ is a factual event or mere myth) is a tad lower than people who recover from rape induced trauma…

    beefcat,
    @beefcat@lemmy.world avatar

    But it is possible to recover, and many do. There is no recovery from being murdered. Personally, I’m glad I’m still alive even if I’m still dealing with my own SA-induced trauma 20 years later.

    Murder also has further externalities. When you kill someone, you take them away from their friends and families, who now have to live forever without that person in their lives.

    But this whole conversation feels a lot like we’re asking “who was worse, Hitler or Genghis Khan?”, and it’s weird to put either side on the defensive even if there is an objectively true answer to be found.

    mwproductions,

    deleted_by_author

  • Loading...
  • aidan,

    Death is always an option, revival generally isn’t.

    dangblingus,

    Murder, for the victim, by definition, is not a traumatic event.

    kava,

    I think this attitude where some traumatic event ruins people for life is toxic. Trauma is part of life. People can move on and have fulfilling lives.

    ParsnipWitch,

    “Trauma is part of life”? Murder and dieing is also part of life. Sorry, but that just doesn’t make sense. Trauma in a clinical sense is certainly not “part of life”.

    kava,

    Life is traumatic. Everyone will go through difficult periods. Your parents will die. Friends will kill themselves. You will be in serious car accidents. You will be assaulted and robbed. You’ll leave your kids in the backseat on a hot day and you’ll fall and hit your head on the concrete in a weird way that causes paralysis.

    This is unavoidable. Life is full of these types of events and while you certainly won’t get to experience all of them you are bound to experience some.

    Lacan says when your subjective perspective on life is shattered, you’ve felt “the Real” up close. This is traumatic- your psyche breaks and you need time to heal these cracks. They’ll never be quite the same.

    Let’s say I’m a young professional woman. I take a self defense class and have a good job and a nice boyfriend. I have a set of beliefs about the world. For example, most people are good. I have bodily autonomy. I am strong and can defend myself.

    Then one night a male stranger pulls me into a dark alley, beats the shit out of me and raped me. All of a sudden, it turns out not everyone is good. I cannot defend myself effectively against a male and he can totally take away my bodily autonomy.

    All these beliefs shattered- I have experienced trauma. As Ben Finegold would say- the truth hurts.

    It doesn’t have to be so dramatic. Any event can shatter these beliefs. I could get a D on the essay I spent so hard working on. I thought I was a straight A intelligent student… but then when I put my heart into something, I fail.

    Belief shattered - maybe I’m not so smart. Trauma. Different scales, same phenomenon.

    Tldr: yes, trauma is inherent to life. It’s part of our psyche.

    HawlSera,

    I can’t send a corpse to therapy for any amount of time that’s long enough for them to recover from being dead, I can say differently about being traumatized…

    And honestly as someone who’s used therapy to recover from trauma, I find the idea that “It would unquestionably be better if you were murdered instead” to be so absurdly offensive and dismissive, as if anything of value to me and my continued existence is suddenly moot because I’ve become “Damaged Goods”

    Seeing Murder as preferable to Rape is a highly misogynistic way of thinking that draws too much from patriarchal standards about a woman’s worth.

    pinkdrunkenelephants, (edited )

    What the fuck does that have to do with anything?

    You are advocating a known sexual predator be allowed in the workplace, knowing other employees are threatened by his presence.

    The company isn’t responsible for ensuring the rapist – who is not supposed to be in society in the first place – is able to put food on the table. It is the company’s responsibility to protect its workers in th workplace, and that means not letting a known rapist work around women.

    Honestly, those women could probably go complain to the EEOC. They certainly could win a civil suit.

    What you’re asking for is horrific and a blatant violation of the rights of other people. We don’t live under the barbaric practices of the 20th century where anything like this can just be done to you and you have to put up with it. We live in the 21st century where we recognize the rights of victims and communities are more important.

    Don’t like it? Do what you’re telling rape victims to do: get over it and move on.

    aidan,

    Women aren’t the only victims of rape. Clearly he shouldn’t be allowed to work around anyone right? Actually he shouldn’t be allowed to live near anyone who could be at risk either. Actually he shouldn’t be allowed to go near anyone who could be raped. I think the Soviets already tried a prisoner only island and it didn’t work too well.

    pinkdrunkenelephants,
    1. It’s not the company’s responsibility to employ him.
    2. There are plenty of jobs he can get where he doesn’t interact with anyone.
    3. OP and the other workers have a serious, legitimate, valid fear of this asshole and their rights are fundamentally more important than his, because it’s their safety and security on the line, not his or by extension yours. He is not you
    4. You’re being overly emotional and melodramatic, and it’s obvious you’re doing it on purpose because you know what you’re asking for is horrific.

    No one owes that clown a living and if you don’t like it, it’s too fucking bad. He should have thought about that before being a dirty rapist, just as you should have thought before you opened your stupid fucking mouth.

    The people at that job do NOT have to suffer his presence to appease you. They do NOT have to endanger themselves by being around a fucking rapist!

    Don’t you care about their rights at all? Their rights are being violated by virtue of him being there, doesn’t that matter to you at all? Would you want your cousin or your sister or your mother or your wife to work in a situation like that? Or are you gonna insult my intelligence by lying to my face saying they or you do already, so surely rape apologia is good for us peasants too?

    aidan,

    It’s not the company’s responsibility to employ him.

    I never said they did.

    There are plenty of jobs he can get where he doesn’t interact with anyone.

    Like?

    OP and the other workers have a serious, legitimate, valid fear of this asshole and their rights are fundamentally more important than his, because it’s their safety and security on the line, not his

    A lot of fears are valid, but that doesn’t necessarily justify acting on them.

    their rights are fundamentally more important than his

    That was true during his prison sentence. Now as much as he disgusts us, he has served his punishment and has his rights again.

    or by extension yours. He is not you The people at that job do NOT have to suffer his presence to appease you.

    What does this have to do with me?

    They do NOT have to endanger themselves by being around a fucking rapist!

    They can quit, they can force the employer to fire him, or they can tolerate it. Fundamentally, there is nothing he can change now to make himself more tolerable to his coworkers, and its not his employers job to punish him again.

    Their rights are being violated by virtue of him being there

    How?

    Would you want your cousin or your sister or your mother or your wife to work in a situation like that?

    Why is this the argument? Why can’t I have the option empathize with someone myself- why does it have to be a surrogate? But my mom was hospitalized 2 years ago after assault by a student who she still works with. Of course its terrifying know that could happen, but that’s why safety measures are put into place at her work place.

    rape apologia is good for us peasants too?

    Where did I apologize for rape? All I implied was that under the law he had served his time. He is now allowed to exist in society. If you believe in mandatory minimum of a life sentence for rape, that is a debate that can be had. But just like murderers, kidnappers, torturers, terrorists, and other horrific criminals, rapists are sometimes given a chance at freedom again. But you should separate wanting to protect people, and wanting revenge. Wanting revenge is a motive for criminal justice, but don’t try to hide it with an argument about protection and rights.

    pinkdrunkenelephants,

    I never said they did.

    Yes you did, and your fellow cultists have been doing that the entire day. It’s the logical inference from your stances, which you have been desperately trying to bait and switch us to accept with lame Motte and Baileys, strawmen, and complete exaggerations and distortions of your enemies – we’re you’re enemies to you, and trust me, the feeling is mutual – and you’re not getting one over on us. You’re not going to weasel your way out of arguing that employers are somehow obligated to put food on the tables of rapists.

    Honestly you should know better than to presume employers are obligated of anything toward anyone. They don’t even really have any obligation to fire him, and if you genuinely were trying to be logically consistent and not some gross-ass rape apologist, you would have used that reasoning from the get-go. But you didn’t, because protecting rapists is important to you. Because you’re vile.

    Like?

    Like not my problem. Oh, I’m sorry, I guess that was just a dismissal instead of you doing a simple Indeed.com search for remote work. Silly me. I forgot we’re morally obligated to cater to the needs of rapists simply because you’re angry that evil people face lifelong consequences for their actions and that is somehow unfair to you (because you fear that happening to you or your friends. Implying you’re going to do something nasty to somebody)

    A lot of fears are valid, but that doesn’t necessarily justify acting on them.

    Well, we’re not talking about a lot of fears, we’re talking about the serious and credible threat of the presence of a rapist. And OP is justified in talking to his coworkers and bosses about this whether you like it or not. Get over it, like you tell rape victims to do when you’re not brainwashing them.

    What does this have to do with me?

    You tell us, you’ve made the whole thread and OP’s serious problems he came for advice on all about you. All Damn Day.

    They can quit, they can force the employer to fire him, or they can tolerate it. Fundamentally, there is nothing he can change now to make himself more tolerable to his coworkers, and its not his employers job to punish him again.

    Yep, burden’s all on everyone else and so everything must happen in favor of the rapist. The world revolves around him, and the rights of the community are secondary to his. We know that’s your stance.

    Also an employer firing someone like that is an act to protect their employees and, probably more importantly for them, to protect the business from liability. It’s not even a punishment but you’re throwing a temper tantrum trying to make it out as if it is.

    Actions. Have. Consequences. Get over that fact. Get over the fact that that rapist brought it upon himself, and there’s nothing you can or should do about it. What you want is not right. What you want is unconscionable and wrong.

    How?

    By being a rapist, an implied rapist of women when there are women in the workplace from OP’s post. And like it or not, being a rapist makes you a threat to the community, permanently. Rape is an act you can NEVER walk away from, NEVER move on from, and given the horrific nature of the act, that’s how things must be for life to be right and just. Just because you don’t feel that way doesn’t make it not true.

    Your outlook and perspective is skewed, but again, that’s because you perceive yourself as a potential rapist so that’s not a surprise.

    Why is this the argument?

    Because you clearly don’t empathize or care about anyone other than yourself. Especially not OP or anyone in OP’s position, or his friend, or his coworkers. Or his employer, for that matter.

    Where did I apologize for rape?

    The entire thread. All day. Your stance is by its nature rape apologia, and you know this but you just don’t care because you don’t care about anyone other than yourself and your own feelings.

    Hell, if your loved ones were in a situation like that, you would say the exact same thing you are now, and that’s what makes you a rape apologist. It doesn’t matter to you. You don’t even respect me enough to be honest about it.


    You can front about it all day, but you are a rape apologist. And until you change your stance and throw away your shitty opinions on the matter, you’ll continue to be one. And one day, when something like this happens to someone you love, you really WILL tell them what you’re telling us here, and you will destroy that person. If they are a victim, you’ll either successfully brainwash them, and they will go on to destroy others, or you’ll cause them PTSD and drive them to drug addiction and suicide, statistically.

    Take heart in that no employer will ever fire you for that, for what it’s worth.

    ParsnipWitch,

    There is no reason why rape is judged much less severely than torture though.

    Landsharkgun,

    ITT: people reallly pulling for a rapist.

    I’m honestly with OP on this one. Rape is up there with torture and child abuse. You’ve gotta be a real scumbag to do it. It’s not something you get pressed into by circumstance, like e.g. stabbing someone in a bar fight. At some point, the right of everyone else to be free of threat outweighs one guy’s right to reintegrate with society.

    OP, you live in the US, and you have 2nd Amendment rights. Start carrying to work.

    Donjuanme,

    I’m not "for"anyone here, but “carry a loaded weapon to work” sounds like the worst advice possible. I guess you could justify that workplace safety isn’t a thing, but that’s no reason to throw kerosene into a fire.

    smotherlove,

    Sure, it’s obvious how it sounds, but adults don’t make decisions about their safety based on vibes.

    Gabu,

    'muricans can’t really be considered adults – especially gun nuts.

    smotherlove,

    I don’t think people should bring guns to work either, but you kind of (intentionally, I assume) dodged my point entirely

    pinkdrunkenelephants,

    The fact that people on this platform are siding with the rapist is either evidence for bot activity or a sign the platform should be isolated and defederated from everyone else.

    derf82,

    You don’t answer the question about how this person can support themselves. They committed a horrible crime, but have served their time. It isn’t pulling for a rapist, it’s wanting to see someone rehabilitated.

    People on one hand say they want to rehabilitate offenders. But when it comes to it, they want to permanently ostracize them, prevent them from working, and prevent them doing the daily tasks of living. You think they are a threat, wait until they are forced to live in the streets starving and see how they will lash out.

    And are you seriously defending stabbing someone in a bar fight?

    And, no, you don’t have the right to carry a gun on someone else’s property, including your employer’s.

    pinkdrunkenelephants,

    They don’t because the answer is simple: YOU feed them, since you want to protect and defend rapists, and thus rape itself.

    Or just put them back into jail for life. They’re a rapist. They don’t belong here no matter how much you want them to be, and the fact this was even allowed to happen in the first place is a testament to how you have caused society to destroy itself by defending rape.

    Their inability to feed themselves is simply not our problem. They brought that onto themselves. We don’t have to let them into our communities and you can’t force us to.

    derf82,

    Fuck off, asshole. I am not defending rape.

    It’s our problem when you want to take the ability for them to care for themselves.

    And it’s not that I want them to be. It’s that society has determined they have served their time. You seem to want to force them into recidivism, which supports rape more than anything I said.

    pinkdrunkenelephants,

    Yes the fuck you are, you vile, disgusting rape apologist. You and your ilk have:

    • Told us that rape is more recoverable than murder, therefore it’s not as bad
    • Insisted society has an obligation to feed people and therefore a known sexual predator has rights that supercede the rights of his victims or potential victims that would be violated if the company fired them to protect the rest of the workplace
    • That a company would have no liability to protect its women workers and that, in fact, the woman would create a hostile work environment for the rapist by complaining about it
    • That women should just shut up and get over it, and suffer the presence of a rapist.

    These are positions your little cult have argued, hiding behind flowery language and Motte-and-bailey arguments, and you will NOT escape responsibility for your words.

    You are a rape apologist. Period.

    Ookami38,

    Mate he’s an idiot at best and a troll at worst. He thinks I’m sexist because I find the idea of lifetime imprisonment a “disgusting sentiment”. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    Landsharkgun,

    I can absolutely see how someone who gets into fights can be rehabilitated. You can work with anger management, threat responses, removal of triggers, avoiding people or areas that cause the behavior, etc.

    Rape? It’s an intentional, sadistic crime. I don’t really see how rehab would even work with a multiple rapist.

    wanting to see someone rehabilitated

    Tossing somebody on the street and hoping for the best isn’t rehab. Rehab involves active monitoring, behavioral modification, restrictions on liberties, etc. It also involves owning up to your crime to the community. If that makes life harder for the offender, that is their burden to bear.

    derf82,

    I don’t see why rehabilitation wouldn’t work. It either works or doesn’t. And OP says nothing about being a multiple rapist. Sure, maybe some crimes like murder you forfeit the right to be rehabilitated, but that isn’t what has been charged here.

    And, sorry, violent crime can be every bit as intentional and sadistic as rape.

    And where is your evidence he was just tossed on the street? He no doubt is being monitored by a parole officer and may very be receiving behavioral modification therapy.

    And you are not merely making life “harder” you are making life impossible and pushing him to reoffend.

    Maggoty, (edited )

    You do not have a 2nd Amendment right at work. Your employer controls your ability to carry on their property.

    Edit to Add - it’s not about the Rape part. It’s about the Ex Felon part. Today it’s a Rapist. Tomorrow it’s the guy who stole bread for his family. The day after that no one can ever be released so we bring back lifetime indentured servitude. We’ve seen this story before and it ended with a civil war over slavery and a civil rights movement.

    Landsharkgun,

    “Not wanting to work with a multiple rapist is the same as slavery”

    Maggoty,

    Well no. That’s a radical simplification. I’m explaining how this impulse led to slavery back in the day. As a result, locking people up forever as a matter of course turns out to be a really bad idea.

    However this is exactly the level of discourse I’ve come to expect in regards to protecting society from conservative excess.

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