Riccosuave,
@Riccosuave@lemmy.world avatar
Rapidcreek,

Its not a back and white issue. Sure Israel is clearly an oppressor but Hamas, Hezbollah etc, are a bunch of violent clowns who do evil ass things like presently kidnapping families. Its not a true good guy/bad guy situation.

tooren,

Entirely true

RTRedreovic,

Then they should do what for independence? There can be no peace with oppressors. If you can’t see this, you are blind. Israel has committed violent atrocities against the palestinians for decades. The excesses of the Fundamentalist groups is merely a scratch in comparison.

ClarkDoom,

It’s honestly concerning how so few people understand the world isn’t filled with good guys and bad guys. The collective conscience is so naive and ignorant.

not_that_guy05,

You know, maybe Israel shouldn’t be oppressing Palestinians. But then again, saying anything against Israel is a hate crime allegedly.

tooren,

Not all 200 of the Israeli civilians who died are responsible for actions of the IDF.

AstridWipenaugh,

And not all of the thousands killed or wounded in Palestine were affiliated with Hamas in any way. What’s your point?

tooren,

Agreed, and the IDF is completely in the wrong for that too!

ripcord,
ripcord avatar

You ignored the question. What was your point?

VioletRing,

Why is it when talking about Israeli military or political action it's necessary to add the word government? With any other country you can say, as an example, "Russia shouldn't be invading Ukraine", but with Israel it seems necessary to add something like "I'm talking about the government, not the people."

On the other side of things, it seems Hamas is interchangable with Palestine, which is interchangable with the Palestinian people, and none of these get folks pointing out the distinction.

Riccosuave, (edited )
@Riccosuave@lemmy.world avatar

How dare you point out this blatant, objective hypocrisy!!! I’m triggered by your rationality and sincerity. You must be a racist, bigot, anti-semite, nazi, fascist, alt-right, 4chan loving, basement dweller.

tooren,

No one said that. Usually those supporting Palestine unilaterally are more radically in the SJW space.

Riccosuave, (edited )
@Riccosuave@lemmy.world avatar

Who the fuck said I unilaterally supported anybody? I don’t unilaterally or unequivocally support anything. The devil is always in the details.

tooren,

Why is it when talking about Israeli military or political action it’s necessary to add the word government?

I can’t speak for others, but I don’t blame random Russians, I blame the Russian government- and I talk about the Russian government.

On the other side of things, it seems Hamas is interchangable with Palestine, which is interchangable with the Palestinian people, and none of these get folks pointing out the distinction.

Again not to me.

fubo,

With any other country you can say, as an example, “Russia shouldn’t be invading Ukraine”

On the contrary. We can name “the Putin regime” rather than saying “Russia”.

Tyrannies typically oppress their own people first.

The country first oppressed by the Nazis was not Poland or France or Czechoslovakia; it was Germany. The people first oppressed by Hitler were Germans. Including German Jews; but only a Nazi says German Jews aren’t real Germans. But also German transgender people, German disabled people, German socialists, German Christians who refused to put Hitler before Jesus; and eventually any German who wouldn’t kiss Hitler’s ass.

Who is oppressed by the Putin regime? Mostly Russians.

kitonthenet,

What, exactly, did you think was the argument of the link?

drekly,

Especially if you’re running for office… or prime minister.

gabe,

Antizionism is not inherently antisemitism but is commonly co-opted to peddle antisemitism especially online. No one worth your time outside of zionist nationalist circles are saying that speaking out against Israel is a hate crime, and to say such feels very disingenuous. Most American Jews, especially young American Jews, are actively opposed to the Israeli government and it’s war crimes and actively discuss this stuff. Saying this however only serves to feel like a minimization of very real antisemitism and makes Jews feel unsafe and alienated away from discussing this with you even as a potential ally.

Riccosuave, (edited )
@Riccosuave@lemmy.world avatar

No one worth your time outside of zionist nationalist circles are saying that speaking out against Israel is a hate crime, and to say such feels very disingenuous.

There is literally someone IN THIS THREAD doing exactly that. You suggesting this tactic isn’t commonplace is what I personally find to be disingenuous.

It’s not my job to protect the feelings or emotions of other adult human beings. Either you are willing to stand on your positions, and justify them or you are not. Society doesn’t owe blanket protections over all ideas coming from marginalized or minority groups without first evaluating their context or their substance.

gabe,

Society doesn’t owe blanket protections over all ideas coming from marginalized or minority groups without first evaluating the context or the substance.

I wonder if you’d say the same for other marginalized groups and have this big of a questioning mentality if they weren’t Jews when they ask others to be mindful of times that might be used to perpetuate harm against them.

queermunist,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

“Marginalized”

White Jews are white, with all the privileges that entails.

gabe,

That privilege is conditional and nuanced, Judaism is an ethnoreligion. They experience antisemitism very much so.

queermunist,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

The white ones experience white privilege. The antisemitism is reserved for Jews from Asia and Africa.

gabe,

What was the holocaust then?

There is nuance here that to ignore completely is not only contributing to antisemitism but is just factually incorrect. That’s not how antisemitism works. White passing Jews are still Jewish, and still experience antisemitism. To say they don’t is antisemitic.

queermunist,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Britain committed genocide against the Irish, but do you really think there is still racism against the Irish ethnicity? Times change. The Irish are white now, because whiteness is like that. New ethnicities are recoded as “white” in order to maintain white power structures.

And so white Jews become white, while non-white Jews are still discriminated against for being Semitic.

To say that white Jews are not white is, honestly, racist. It’s just white people trying to appropriate the oppression of non-white people.

gabe,

So, I guess Tree of Life massacre wasn’t racist nor antisemitic because most of the victims were “white” Jews. Nor was the Charlottesville riot. Or the synagogue firebombings. Or the antisemitic slurs I’ve been called online and offline. Thank you for taking the time to educate me about my own oppression, how very kind of you.

queermunist,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

The Tree of Life massacre was a tragedy, but it doesn’t reflect the broader power structures of society. It is part of the same dynamics that have produced many many other mass shootings where white people are killed en masse. The shooter was motivated by antisemitism, but the existence of antisemitic individuals is not proof that white Jews are discriminated against on any kind of scale.

The Unite the Right rally, on the other hand, was a reaction to the removal of Confederate statues. Yes, there were Neo-Nazis there, but the primary driver was racism. In fact, making that all about you, a white person who is unaffected by racism, is… kinda racist.

White Jews are white and Israel is a white settler colony genociding the non-white local population - truly the 51st US state.

gabe,

Yeah no, there’s absolutely no way you’re arguing this in good faith or being serious whatsoever there’s just no way lmao

queermunist,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Why do you think Republicans, the ones that caucus with Nazis, support Israel? If this isn’t proof of whiteness, nothing will convince you.

player1,

And you know that… how exactly?

Tell that to the Jews at the Pittsburgh synagogue.

Riccosuave, (edited )
@Riccosuave@lemmy.world avatar

You can play the victim all you want, but my point still stands. A person’s religion, nationality, or any other form of identity has no bearing on either the value or the quality of their ideas.

Ideas must stand on their own merits, and if they do not bear up to scrutiny then they should be disregarded even if that means offending the person who produced them.

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