paddirn,

I thought the Gaza death toll was the intent?

Rentlar,

These things appear to be going as zionists intended and the state department is wilfully ignoring.

andrewrgross,

I’m surprised this doesn’t get mentioned more, but Antony Blinken is a Jewish Zionist. That doesn’t seem like a good mediator here. He also has spent his whole career assisting in this kind of mass cruelty abroad. He worked under the Clinton and Bush whitehouses on national security. He was a staff member for the Senate foreign relations committee and advocated for the war in Iraq, which Biden then supported as the chair of that committee. Then he worked on the national security council under Obama and advocated for Obama’s disastrous intervention in Libya.

Also, I really feel like it’s weird that this doesn’t get more attention, so I’m going to repeat it: he’s a lifelong Zionist Jew. I know that phrase feels gross, but that’s literally his own self perception. It kind of feels like he’s a blood-soaked American imperialist who always cheerleads violence and could conceivably be characterized as basically a dual national with Israeli loyalties. He shouldn’t be secretary of state, let alone involved in this issue.

BraveSirZaphod,
BraveSirZaphod avatar

If, by "Zionist Jew", you mean that he is a Jew that thinks that Israel has some right to exist in some fashion - which is what Zionist actually means - you are describing the vast majority of all Jews, and by extension arguing that no Jew should be allowed to be involved in this discussion.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I have a strange idea that you wouldn't similarly support barring any Muslim from being involved in the talks.

andrewrgross, (edited )

That’s not a useful or accurate description of modern Zionism that is used by Zionists or antizionist Jews. If it were, it would leave room for a two-state solution, for instance. But the leadership of the modern Zionist movement and the Israeli government has been working aggressively since the Oslo accords to prevent the formation of any Palestinian state and also to ethnically cleanse Israel of its Israeli Palestinian population (I’m talking here about Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, who for years have been second class citizens and faced threats of mass expulsion from their own elected leaders).

The Zionist movement largely has two camps, and if we include the Jewish antizonist movement, we have a general third:

Liberal Zionists - Those who support a welcoming homeland for Jews which is democratic, and of negotiable boundaries.

Religious Zionists - Those who believe unwavering in a god-given right to the full territory between the River Jordon and the Mediterranean Sea, and that their right justifies the removal of non Jews by any means.

Antizionist Jews - Those who believe that current inhabitants, the displaced former residents, and the children of both have a legal and moral right to remain and/or return to their family lands and live with full rights alongside those who’ve immigrated in the last century and the children of these immigrants.

Blinken is, as far as I’m aware, a liberal Zionist. The problem is that liberal Zionists have ceded Israeli policy fully to religious Zionists, and have been trying for at least a decade to somehow insist on using their own vision of Zionism as the framework for debate when critics challenge the obvious theocratic and genocidal impulses of religious Zionism as articulated plainly by the leaders of the movement, Itamar Ben Gvir (head of the police and prisons) and Bezalel Smotrich (finance minister). Netanyahu says nothing, but as he refuses to even lie and pretend to support a Palestinian state, his actions and tactical silence have shown him to be a religious Zionist in all ways that matter.

Also, I wouldn’t immediately disqualify a Muslim for the role any more than I’d disqualify a politically neutral Jew. But I would certainly object to an outspoken Muslim advocate of Palestinian Liberation in the role for the same reason I’d say that Blinken is not qualified to be a neutral and faithful representative of the US. The issue isn’t the circumstances of his birth: it’s his lifelong political involvement in the nationalist movement of one side.

I was raised singing the Hatikva (the Israeli anthem) every morning in school alongside the Star Spangled Banner, btw. I’m coming at this with plenty of first-hand knowledge.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Thanks for this insightful comment.

DarkGamer,
DarkGamer avatar

Not according to them.

Sparlock, (edited )

You mean when Bibi said that Gaza shouldn’t exist and that Palestinian culture shouldn’t exist.

Bibi Netanyahu saying “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. 1 Samuel 15:3 ‘Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass’," .

Defense Minister Yoav Gallant called residents of Gaza, about half of whom are children, “human animals” as he ordered a “complete siege” on the enclave including a total blockade of food, fuel, and electricity.

Former military officer Eliyahu Yossian said the IDF must enter Gaza “with the aim of revenge, zero morality, maximum corpses,” and told Channel 14 in Israel that “there is no population in Gaza, there are 2.5 million terrorists.”

Earlier this year, Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich said at an event in Paris, “There’s no such thing as Palestinians because there’s no such thing as a Palestinian people.” He also said the West Bank town of Huwara should be “wiped out” by “the state of Israel,” while Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu presented a map of what he called “The New Middle East”—without the illegally occupied West Bank, Gaza, or East Jerusalem—at the United Nations General Assembly just weeks before the onslaught in Gaza began.

Fuck you for only looking at one side and being blind to the genocide you are defending.

romson,

Genocide where population triples within a decade or more LOL.

Sparlock,

Do I really need to explain why this is particular talking point is so mind numbingly moronic?

romson,

Yes please.

Sparlock,

Ok so that we can work from the same set of data where did you get the information for your claim? I do data analysis so I’d love to run it. I might even make some pretty graphs.

romson,

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_PalestineFirst link under population is: www.pcbs.gov.ps/statisticsIndicatorsTables.aspx?l…It says as first measurement 1997: 2783084 And for 2023: 5483450 This is a 2x increase. How can anyone realistically argue with genocide when the population rises continuously and doubled within 25y.

Sparlock,

The Gaza Strip’s population of roughly 1.8 million has an unusually large proportion of children. Figures for 2013 from Index Mundi, the internet source of country data, show that that 42.5 percent of the population is aged 14 or under, compared with 32 percent in Egypt and 27 percent in Israel.

In a situation where disempowerment, underemployment and marginalisation have left few opportunities for expression of identity, reproduction is one of the few liberties which remains, and also contributes to the larger goal of increasing the Palestinian people. Data from Index Mundi show that the fertility rate in Gaza, 4.4 children per woman, is among the highest in the world. That has steadily fallen from a peak of 8.3 children per woman in 1991. This compares with a rate of 3 in Israel, although the overall rate there is elevated by higher rates of around 6 among the strictly orthodox Haredi Jews. In most European countries, it’s about 2.

It’s the place in the world where the least women work outside the home with only 14 percent of women in the labour market. While women are housebound, their husbands earn more money as their families expand. Traditionally, men will get extra wages if they have extra children.

So we have explained the high fertility rates and that about half the population is 14 or under. But why so many young kids and FAR fewer older adults? For the last 16 years, a blockade that’s been imposed on Gaza by Israel and enforced by Egypt and Israel controls everything that goes into and out of the Gaza Strip. So food, medicine, all of that is controlled by Israel. And the Gaza Strip lacks very basic health needs for the people living there. So as a result of Israel’s blockade and bombings of Gaza, life expectancy for Palestinians there is a full 10 years less than it is for Israelis living just a few miles away.

Now let’s look at the definition of Genocide.

Genocide is any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

  • a) Killing members of the group;
  • b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
  • c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
  • d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
  • e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

A,B, and C all apply here. And before you go for the “intent” get out of jail free card…

Israel’s Public Diplomacy Minister: “Erase all of Gaza from the face of the earth. That the Gazan monsters will fly to the southern fence & try to enter Egyptian territory or they will die & their death will be evil.

Gaza should be erased!”

Still questioning a genocidal intent?

How about Bibi Netanyahu saying “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. 1 Samuel 15:3 ‘Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass’," .

Defense Minister Yoav Gallant called residents of Gaza, about half of whom are children, “human animals” as he ordered a “complete siege” on the enclave including a total blockade of food, fuel, and electricity.

Former military officer Eliyahu Yossian said the IDF must enter Gaza “with the aim of revenge, zero morality, maximum corpses,” and toldChannel 14 in Israel on Monday that “there is no population in Gaza, there are 2.5 million terrorists.”

Earlier this year, Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich said at an event in Paris, “There’s no such thing as Palestinians because there’s no such thing as a Palestinian people.” He also said the West Bank town of Huwara should be “wiped out” by “the state of Israel,” while Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu presented a map of what he called “The New Middle East”—without the illegally occupied West Bank, Gaza, or East Jerusalem—at the United Nations General Assembly just weeks before the onslaught in Gaza began.

What makes this conflict unique is the incredible power imbalance. This is not normally the case. For example Ethiopia’s genocide against Tigray, the Tigray militants are a powerful force which could conceivably conquer the entirety of Ethiopia and overthrow the central government. In contrast, Israel has the most powerful military in the region, backed up by the most powerful military in the world, and the most extensive global network of diplomatic support.

This is precisely why Israel’s choices now deserve more scrutiny. Given the vast power imbalance, Israel has options not afforded by other nations in this situation (such as Ethiopia). Given their insistence of choosing continued aggression, it is becoming harder to frame their intentions in a charitable way. If you insist on framing Israel’s intentions charitably, then you should afford that same fairness of understanding to the Palestinians also.

Do you want to talk about population growth since Oct 7th since that is the current conflict? Or how the population of Palestinians would be more than double the numbers if the Nakba had never happened?

romson,

A lot of words for „no intent to annihilate“ means not a formal genocide. This intent is not visible or proven in any way. On the contrary Muslims states state they would like to genocide Israel but are weaker and therefore sit tight currently (and have failed a couple of times in the past). Hard to feel sorry for any Muslim down there. Definition of fuck around and find out.

snek,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar
DoomBot5,

That’s just the usual lemmy gaslighting. It’s always been about stomping out Hamas.

Sparlock,

Well they see everyone in Gaza as Hamas/animals so they haven’t killed a single civilian in their mind.

snek,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Everyone world wide has a huge problem with the death toll, except for pro-Israelis. That irks me.

Squizzy,

This whole thing is a perfect example of how conspiracy theories get a foothold. We are seeing celebrity cancellations because of disagreement with Israel and people clearly asking for change from their leadership who refuse. Yet the apartheid state remains enabled and the genocide supported.

It’s pure balls

snek,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Israel of course boldly claims that 7k of those 18k dead are terrorists. Somehow in their minds the death of the 11k others doesn’t mean shit. No evidence beyond “trust me bro”.

Melkath,

Also, dont forget, they have been caught a few times now rounding up civilians, shaming/torturing them as terrorists, claiming they are terrorists, then it turns out they were just normal civilians rounded up like cattle.

snek,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar
phoneymouse, (edited )

If you have a problem with the death toll then you must be a Hamas supporter! Come on don’t be so anti-Semitic! Hey, that’s a nice job you’ve got there, would be a shame if you were to lose it.

/s

floofloof,

…by sending them more weapons and ammo and asking them to be nice.

naturalgasbad,

Depends on how you view “closing the gap”

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

The defenders of human rights violations.

Shade,
@Shade@lemmy.world avatar

This is USA to Israel: Hey now… come on now…ooh. we tried.

Melkath,

Reminds me of Democrat primary debate where right before (or after... was a while ago, dont remember which) TARP was released to pump hundreds of billions of dollars straight into CEO's pockets because it was going to "trickle down" and fix the economy (the actual issue was the sub prime mortgage trade in wall street), Hilary was quoted as saying "I was the Senator for New York when all that went down, and I personally went to Wall Street and told them 'Hey! Stop it!'" They, in fact, did not stop it.

DarkGamer,
DarkGamer avatar

It's a tough time to be the Biden administration, they're trying to support our allies and retain international credibility while dealing with significant numbers of angry voters who are trying to bind Israel's hands before they can achieve meaningful military objectives to keep themselves safe. This will end when Hamas is deposed and the threat of future attacks is mitigated, which could happen immediately if they were so inclined:

"There's a gap between the intent and the results, and that's the gap that we're trying to make sure is closed," Blinken said. "Look, this could be over tomorrow. This could be over tomorrow. If Hamas got out of the way of civilians instead of hiding behind them, if it put down its weapons, if it surrendered."
The "entire world" should put pressure on Hamas "to do just that," Blinken said. "That would stop this tomorrow. But in the absence of that, Israel has to take steps not only to defend itself against the ongoing attacks from Hamas, but against Hamas’s stated intent to repeat Oct. 7 again and again if given the opportunity."

I totally agree with him. It's sad when I see more people on the left angry at Israel for responding to being attacked than at Hamas for instigating, hiding among civilians, and prolonging the conflict, causing this terrible yet predictable situation.

Marsupial,
@Marsupial@quokk.au avatar

You think it’s sad you see more people concerned by genocide over terrorism?

DarkGamer,
DarkGamer avatar

Hamas is for genocide, they just don't have the means. Israel claims they are not. Causing heavy collateral damage is not genocide.

snek,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Do you deny Israel’s genocide against Palestinians?

toallpointswest,
@toallpointswest@mastodon.cloud avatar

@DarkGamer @naturalgasbad @Marsupial Yeah that's delusional, Israel is committing genocide and has been slow walking one ( ethnic cleansing) for decades

Israeli propaganda isn't fooling anyone anymore

DarkGamer,
DarkGamer avatar

So you think they are okay with genocide, despite their history, but just not very good at it? 🙄

They could have just fire bombed Gaza like Dresden, but instead they built a sophisticated AI to generate legal military targets, and until recently would warn people of strikes ahead of time so they could leave.

toallpointswest,
@toallpointswest@mastodon.cloud avatar

@DarkGamer @naturalgasbad @Marsupial Dude, Zionism is literally Manifest Destiny ( If you're not American, look it up) with better PR

ghostdoggtv,

Gazans have nowhere left to go. The state of Israel are the most incompetent military operators of all time.

toallpointswest,
@toallpointswest@mastodon.cloud avatar
DarkGamer,
DarkGamer avatar

How does your clip reveal naevity?

This does not appear to be a valid military target and I hope those responsible are punished. Are you suggesting this one person getting shot and killed is genocide, not an unsanctioned killing by soldiers at war?

toallpointswest,
@toallpointswest@mastodon.cloud avatar

@DarkGamer @naturalgasbad @Marsupial I'm saying that one video you're watching, is an example of many other atrocities that have been documented in other places

And those who perpetuated the action will go unpunished by Israel which is condoning those actions. About 17,000 times so far, in a myriad of manners

DarkGamer,
DarkGamer avatar

You're implying that every one of those other 17000 deaths (Hamas numbers) is equally unlawful, I don't think that's a reasonable assumption.

toallpointswest,
@toallpointswest@mastodon.cloud avatar

@DarkGamer @naturalgasbad @Marsupial Considering that Israel isn't bothering to differentiate those are THE Numbers.

Get out of your safe space
Israel is a terrorist nation, remember that. Israel IS a terrorist nation

DarkGamer,
DarkGamer avatar

Israel is at war. Their civilians were attacked by the government of a hostile nation and and its forces. They claim they attack military targets. Not terrorism.

toallpointswest,
@toallpointswest@mastodon.cloud avatar

@DarkGamer @naturalgasbad @Marsupial WRONG Israel is conducting Ethnic Cleansing under the guise of being at war with some kind of peer adversary.
While in reality they're murdering unarmed civilians

Remember, Israel is a terrorist nation. Worse, they're a terrorist nation that has been conducting an Occupation of the indigenous people

toallpointswest,
@toallpointswest@mastodon.cloud avatar

@DarkGamer @naturalgasbad @Marsupial also those "warnings" are a little more than psychological warfare, part of their collective punishment.

Especially because Israel has gone to bomb those safe zones they sent civilians into. You really don't know what the hell is going on

snek,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar
snek,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

They could have just fire bombed Gaza like Dresden, but instead they built a sophisticated AI to generate legal military targets,

As someone who works with AI on a professional level (data scientist/ML engineer) I want to say from all my heart: fuck your stupidity.

Oh yeah the AI surely explains why 30+ members of the same family die a single bombing and why Israel has wiped entire families from existence.

You are such a sad genocide denier. You ARE just as bad as holocaust deniers, maybe even worse since you are denying a genocide now underway, a genocide we can stop.

Sparlock,

Hey look you did the thing I just was mentioning…

I noticed the zionists seem to like saying that gaza isn’t being carpet bombed and such so how do you explain :

“Dresden, Hamburg, Cologne — some of the world’s heaviest-ever bombings are remembered by their place names,” said Robert Pape, a US military historian and author of Bombing to Win, a landmark survey of 20th century bombing campaigns. “Gaza will also go down as a place name denoting one of history’s heaviest conventional bombing campaigns.” from the financial times (non paywalled no excuses link archive.ph/DSZ1b/ )

They even have pretty graphs showing how it is worse.

Oh and since you seem to think TIME is an issue for me tell me how fast was the WW2 bombing vs everything since Oct 7??

Nevermind I’ll just tell you since your propaganda addled brain (yea that’s an insult you nazi wannabe) will try to block it out. “By contrast, over the space of two years, between 1943 and 1945, the Allied bombing of 61 major German cities razed an estimated 50 per cent of their urban areas, according to Pape.”

Odd how these things seem bad even in the light of history, maybe Israel can get all the way to # 1 on the charts!!!

snek,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

I noticed the guy/girl you are responding to almost never write back when presented with evidence. Just making sweeping statements and fucking off.

Sparlock,

Yup he’s a coward.

dwalin,

The current ratio for collateral “damage”, as you called it, is 2-1. Are they missing and shooting terrorists by mistake?

DarkGamer,
DarkGamer avatar

They are attacking Hamas targets hiding among civilians, using them as human shields.

dwalin,

Well, thats to be expected. They are, in fact, terrorists. Whats not expected is the lack of regard for human life from the idf.

If you think a state should have the same standards as a terrorist group, i dont know what to tell you

DarkGamer,
DarkGamer avatar

If you think they should send troops into a well prepared guerilla terrorist den without air support and incur heavy losses, encouraging increased use of human shields in the future, and making Israel less safe in order to save civilians from a belligerent nation who are likely to be hostile themselves, I don't know what to tell you.

Fundamentally Israel has to choose between the lives of it's own soldiers and civilians in a hostile territory, their decision should be unsurprising.

dwalin,

Dude, they are bombing hospitals, ambulances, refugee camps, UN offices, UN schools, starving people, etc. I dont know what to tell you.

Lets hope you never find yourself in the same neighbourhood as a hostage taker or idf may as well bomb it.

DarkGamer,
DarkGamer avatar

The hospitals, ambulance, and refugee camps were attacked because Hamas was using them and tunnels beneath them for military purposes, IDF has released a lot of evidence to this effect. I don't know about the UN targets enough to comment on them.

Impound4017,

I’m honestly not sure we can truly say that Hamas ‘instigated’ this situation in good faith, as this is merely the most recent flare-up in a long history of atrocities that goes both ways. That doesn’t excuse what Hamas has done either, but I also wouldn’t consider shelling civilian buildings to be a particularly defensive action.

People aren’t trying to ‘bind Israel’s hands before they can achieve meaningful military objectives’ they’re trying to bind Israel’s hands before they can commit more atrocities. These atrocities are being actively supported by US taxpayer dollars, and the sentiment among voters (at least the ones I know) is that US support means that we have blood on our hands by association. That’s not something I’m willing to support, and voters shouldn’t feel bad for not supporting it either.

Nothing about this mass casualty event should be considered a foregone conclusion. All we can do is try and stop this cycle of violence from being perpetuated.

DarkGamer,
DarkGamer avatar

Causing, "the most recent flare-up," is instigating as it regards to this specific conflict.

I also wouldn’t consider shelling civilian buildings to be a particularly defensive action.

IDF claims they level buildings used by Hamas, however there are anonymous accounts that say that can mean any connection no matter how slight will suffice; a Hamas member living in their family apartment might lead to the entire building being leveled. This might make it technically a legal military target, but there's legitimate criticism to be made of such strategies. I suspect Israel is hitting Gaza hard while they still can to create a buffer zone and/or to discourage future attacks.

People aren’t trying to ‘bind Israel’s hands before they can achieve meaningful military objectives’ they’re trying to bind Israel’s hands before they can commit more atrocities.

This invasion and all the destruction will have all been for naught if they do not take out Hamas before they leave, or at very least change the situation in a way that denies intifada groups the ability to launch future attacks. If they blow up infrastructure and leave them in charge, it's a half-measure, and just a matter of time before the next attack. It would be Pyrrhic victory for Hamas.

the sentiment among voters (at least the ones I know) is that US support means that we have blood on our hands by association. That’s not something I’m willing to support, and voters shouldn’t feel bad for not supporting it either.

Yes, sadly I believe the electorate just sees asymmetrical warfare and assumes the underdog is worth cheering for without understanding the context.

snek,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

a Hamas member living in their family apartment might lead to the entire building being leveled.

Oh I see, so you’re okay with the whole family dying. Now I understand what a sick fuck you are.

Let’s sya your cousin works for the Hamas government… Because he has a governmental job, so they bomb the home you are sheltering and starving in and you, your niece, your mother, your father, your grandfather, and all your children die. Is this acceptable?

I already know the answer: Yes. To you, it must be acceptable.

Semi-Hemi-Demigod,
Semi-Hemi-Demigod avatar

My fear is that this sort of warfare is just going to keep this conflict going for another 70 years.

snek,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

It’s a tough time to be the Biden administration, they’re trying to support our allies and retain international credibility while dealing with significant numbers of angry voters who are trying to bind Israel’s hands before they can achieve meaningful military objectives to keep themselves safe.

Your allies are child murderers.

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/9f927637-dd07-4004-bd3d-8771feebf752.png

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