jlou

@jlou@mastodon.social

#liberal #anticapitalism

An #EconomicDemocracy is a market economy where most firms are structured as #WorkerCoops.

#liberalism
#coops #cooperatives

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HeavenlyPossum, to random
@HeavenlyPossum@kolektiva.social avatar

The funniest thing about Donald Trump is that he is so routinely honest in public—“I will be a dictator,” “there will be violence if I lose”—and yet the majority of people are so concerned about decorum, so terrified of appearing to overreact, that the American political system just plods along as if he hadn’t said what he said.

jlou,

@jackofalltrades @HeavenlyPossum Game theoretically, it has been shown that this sort of position falsely assumes a single-shot prisoner dilemma when really a iterated game makes more sense for modeling the situation. In an iterated prisoner's dilemma, conditional cooperation is a dominant strategy and works to achieve overall cooperation, and this is with extremely implausible assumption of completely selfish agents. Conditional cooperation works by defecting against cooperation defectors

Radical_EgoCom, to random
@Radical_EgoCom@mastodon.social avatar

To those who say "capitalism doesn't force people to do anything. They have free will", if someone put a gun to the head of someone, would that not be a use of force? And how would you feel if the gunman said "I'm not forcing you to do anything. You have the freewill not to give me your money." But if you don't then you'll die, just like the worker will die if they don't do what the capitalist says.

jlou,

@Radical_EgoCom At best, this is an argument for a UBI not against capitalism. At worst, this elevated notion of voluntariness would render practically all contracts involuntary, so it is unusable.

There are stronger arguments against capitalism even when it is fully voluntary such as inalienability of responsible agency.

jlou,

@DEDGirl @Radical_EgoCom The way to get even anti-government-aid Americans to support at least a basic UBI is to frame it as a social dividend for the common inheritance of all, land and natural resources. Land and natural resources are not the fruits of anyone's labor, so there is no property claim to them. In a sense, everyone has an equal right to them. A UBI can be justified as the dividend that people receive for their share of natural resources and land used up in production

jlou,

@apodoxus But nobody consents to being born under postcapitalism either. While it might be a valid objection, I don't see how the proposed alternative resolves it, and it isn't clear how it could be resolved
@Radical_EgoCom

jlou,

@Radical_EgoCom @apodoxus There is a meaningful sense of voluntariness that one can say capitalist employment is more voluntary than slavery. There is an element of continuous consent to capitalist employment that slavery lacks.

The argument against capitalism is people have more freedom, which is not the same as voluntariness, in a postcapitalist society. The point about coercion plays no necessary role in arguments that determinately conclude that postcapitalism is the only valid option

jlou,

@pinkdrunkenelephants @Radical_EgoCom @apodoxus This is true, but we are arguing against a theoretical capitalist ideologue made of steel that rejects such non-consensual employment. To advance anti-capitalism, we should focus on arguments that show the invalidity of even this steel capitalist ideologue's position

Neoliberal adaptation (lemmy.dbzer0.com)

If the Twitter/X thing teaches you one thing, let it be this: Twitter was a neoliberal place. Then Elon Musk made it into X, a fascist place. Once again, neoliberalism laid the foundations of fascism. But that’s not the (whole) lesson… Neoliberal folks are still using X, calling it Twitter to make themselves feel better, and...

jlou,

There are ideologies that believe control rights over firms belong to the workers in those firms. In these ideologies, the control rights can't be given up or transferred even with consent from the workers in the firm i.e. are inalienable. Neoliberalism specifically endorses the alienability control rights over firms. The non-democratic nature of the firm under neoliberal capitalism creates a class used to democratically unaccountable power @leftymemes

jlou,

What do you mean by work in the statement, "Capitalism can work?"

EDIT: Just to be clear, I am asking what normative criteria you are using to assess the system. There is no non-moral objective notion of a system working without some ethical goal in mind

jlou, to workersrights

"Economic Democracy: arguments from the US" for to self-management and against the employment contract

The of economic shows that workers have an inalienable right to workplace democracy/worker coops. The contract violates that right even if it is fully voluntary. An inalienable right is one that can't be given up even with consent

https://youtu.be/E8mq9va5_ZE?t=566

jlou, to solarpunk

Capitalist Markets Aren’t “Free.” They’re Planned for Profit.

Neoliberalism was never about shrinking the state to unfetter markets and enhance human freedom. In her new book, Vulture Capitalism, Grace Blakeley argues that neoliberalism has always sought to wield state power to maximize profits for the rich.

https://jacobin.com/2024/03/neoliberalism-markets-planning-vulture-capitalism/

@solarpunk

jlou, to socialism

Collective Action Problems are Not a Capitalist Plot: On the Non-Triviality of Going from Individual to Collective Rationality

https://wedontagree.net/collective-action-problems-are-not-a-capitalist-plot

@socialism

jlou, to vegan

Directly Valuing Animal Welfare in (Environmental) Economics

https://hal.science/hal-02929260/document

"Research in economics is anthropocentric. It only cares about the welfare of humans, and usually does not concern itself with animals. When it does, ... animals only have instrumental value for humans. Yet unlike water, trees or vegetables, and like humans, most animals have a brain and a nervous system. They can feel pain and pleasure, and many argue that their welfare should matter."

@vegan

Adam_Cadmon1, to random
@Adam_Cadmon1@mastodon.online avatar

Everything is becoming subscription based and it's really grinding my gears. You can't pay for something just once anymore; you have to pay for it over and over again.

jlou,

@msquebanh @hosford42 @Adam_Cadmon1 We should only protect and conserve nature only in so far as doing so reduces wild animal suffering and improves wild animal welfare. If intervening in nature can improve wild animal welfare, we should do it

jlou,

Anti-capitalism ≠ socialism @memes

jlou,

In an economy of worker coops, there is democratic control, but it is decentralized in nature @memes

jlou,

When people think of socialism they think of central planning in an authoritarian government, this has nothing to do with economic democracy and is its opposite.

I prefer the term economic democracy for the system I advocate.

It's not just optics. The arguments for economic democracy are based on the liberal theory of inalienable rights. These arguments demonstrate that capitalism is illiberal and violates liberal principles @memes

jlou,

I know how leftists define it, but when communicating with non-leftists, it doesn't help in understanding the economic democracy position.

  1. Central planning with no markets whatsoever is extremely inefficient
  2. The existing proposals for central planning are authoritarian and don't allocate resources properly to new projects.

The strongest critique of a system is that the ideology used to justify it, after mapping out its logical implications, is actually opposed to it @memes

jlou,

It was a good question. I am limited in response length because I am on Mastodon.

In terms of social dynamics of a stateless society, The Possibility of Cooperation by the game theorist Michael Taylor uses game theory to argue against the Hobbesian case for the state. Radical Markets by E. Glen Weyl covers how to do common ownership with minimal administration @memes

jlou,

I want to convince leftists that there is no benefit to pro-market anti-capitalists referring to themselves as socialist. It is an unnecessary association that only comes with downsides @memes

jlou,

Why is the profit motive terrible in your view? What should we replace the profit motive with?

What is the benefit to pro-market anti-capitalists to challenging that particular preconceived notion? It creates an unnecessary roadblock when pro-market anti-capitalists can just describe themselves as radically democratic liberals, who want to extend democracy into the workplace @memes

jlou,

The only way incentives based on outcome work is when people produce directly for their own use. For cases where people produce for others, the profit motive helps coordinate people to produce. Power imbalances can be avoided by collectivizing means of production across multiple coops.

Enshittification requires IP monopolies. Economic democracy shouldn't have IP monopolies. Instead, it should secure software freedom. Digital public goods should be funded through quadratic funding @memes

jlou,

Whether there is a power imbalance between customer and provider is dependent on how competitive the market is. When providers have market power, consumers can form associations to collectively bargain down providers' prices.

Is there an enshittification example without IP?
Enshittification usually happens with monopolistic firms not competitive markets.

What would you replace markets with specifically?

Quadratic funding lets public goods be free. I can't see how it's extractive @memes

Brendanjones, (edited ) to books
@Brendanjones@fosstodon.org avatar

I've been meaning to read Tim Jackson's books for many years but never got around to it.

Does anybody have opinions on which to read, if I were to choose just one?

The choice is between Prosperity Without Growth (2009) and Post Growth: Life After Capitalism (2021).

I am well read on and in general so don't need an intro. I'm more interested in visions of post growth systems than critique of growth.

jlou,

@Brendanjones Do these books consider wild animal welfare and wild animal suffering in their visions of degrowth? I haven't read much on degrowth personally

jlou,

@Brendanjones Everything else you've read. What is the philosophical basis for their concern with environmental pressures in the aggregate?

I want to read up on degrowth.

Wild animal welfare advocates are in favor of actively intervening in nature to improve wild animal welfare including against natural suffering that is not caused by humans. This can lead to conflict with environmentalists who seek to conserve nature as it is

jlou, to Economics

Property and Contract in : The Case for Economic Democracy by David Ellerman

This book makes 2 arguments.

  1. The employment contract is the core of the rather than private property
  2. The employment contract is invalid because it violates to in the firm. All firms should be structured as worker for economic justice

https://www.ellerman.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Ellerman-Property-and-Contract-Book.pdf

@bookstodon

jlou,

@Brendanjones The name of the other book is The Democratic Firm. Here is a free link from his website: https://www.ellerman.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/DEMOFIRM.pdf

The core point about investment in Ellerman's economic democracy is that his philosophical justification for economic democracy is not based on getting the workers all value produced in an economic enterprise, so arbitrary non-voting preferred stock and other instruments are fine. Investors and worker coops can agree to any value amount going to investors

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