This is literally the type of thing that happens in Fahrenheit 451. It was supposed to be a fantasy nightmare story to make a point, not a literal description of evil events to come.
This kind of systemic fuckery is exactly why ACAB has been and remains accurate. If cops with moral fortitude are removed from their posts for standing up to cops without it, then the system is selecting for bastard cops and those that allow bastard cops to thrive.
This is accurate. I don’t subscribe to ACAB, but I see the logic in it, and this certainly seems to be the case for it. The only time we hear about “good” cops are in these cases.
The fallacy I see, and the reason I don’t subscribe to ACAB is that any “good” cops that exist that aren’t in this situation (of being fired), go pretty much unnoticed by everyone. Nothing they do is newsworthy. The other, more personal reason that I have to not subscribe to ACAB, is that doing so would shatter the faith I have in our entire society to govern itself. IMO, one of the first and most important parts of living in a functional society is the laws and the enforcement of those laws. Police are the front line of enforcement, on the streets with the innocent and perpetrators alike. If they’re unable or unwilling to do the job as detailed in the laws of the society, all criminal cases are suspect, both in what’s prosecuted and very importantly, what isn’t.
If they’re intentionally not bringing in criminal law breakers, and intentionally bringing in otherwise innocent persons (at least in regards to any criminal charges), then the courts, where Justice actually happens, can’t effectively do their job at ensuring that criminals are put into detention facilities, and innocent people are released.
Cops make mistakes. They’re humans like everyone else, and the court should be keeping them in check. Making sure that when they charge an innocent person, that person is set free, and when they charge someone who is guilty, they convict them accurately with all the punishments required as dictated by the laws, written by the government which we all vote for.
Government and the laws on the books, all mean nothing if there’s no way to enforce those laws. The police are just the first step in criminal cases, without them doing the job, the whole system is useless.
1: “Expect the best and people will rise to the occasion.”
2: Good police officers like in OP are fired every month. 800,000 cops in the US… there is a police department trying to fire their good cop(s) RIGHT NOW! Why plaster ACAB everywhere and risk discouraging them?
I do imagine many would argue even the fired officer (Taisyn Crutchfield) was a bastard but that gets tough to defend.
I struggle with this myself, and I choose to look at it as a semantics issue. The point of ACAB is to highlight that bad cops are empowered by colleagues and departments who let them do that they want. It’s a condemnation of tolerating bad apples vs pruning them out. I think of it like the Nazi example – when 4 people happily sits down at the table with 6 overt Nazis, you end up with 10 Nazis. ACAB is condemning those 4 as enablers of the 6 and allowing them to persist.
So I agree, but I don’t think literally every cop is a bastard. There are some good people who are trying to use their position to change things while still helping the public – just like Crutchfield. It’s not worth the effort to specifically exclude them though because that’s not where change is going to come from. The good cops are fighting a losing battle. We’ll only see things fixed if there’s sweeping federal legislation to reform police.
And in that sense, ACAB is useful. It reminds people that these aren’t just a couple cops that needing weeding out, its entire systems and institutions. We can’t solve this by addressing only a few bad apples – we need to change the whole bunch. Now it might be that the only ones we throw away are the bad ones, and the rest of the bunch proves capable of realizing the problem. But you still have to address the whole bunch at once.
Maybe I can help you understand while I feel ACAB despite letting myself have cop friends. The problem is one of elevated responsibility.
Imagine a gang for a minute. Ever seen any good gang documentaries? A lot of “members” of the less insane gangs aren’t really criminals in that they just hang out and hang around. But they are in one of two real buckets, buckets that we can judge them for.
They are fully aware of many of their members are criminals, maybe even rapists and murderers, but take no action about it because they feel they can’t OR EVEN because “I’ve never actually met the members who did this. Our group is really big”.
They are not fully aware that the gang they are part of commits crimes. In this case, they are being willfully ignorant.
For police it’s the same. I live in an area where the cops are generally not going around abusing minorities for the hell of it. The breakdown here are the “Thin Blue Line folks” (bullet point number 2 above), and the “we’re good cops, so why would we go start trouble elsewhere?” (bullet point number 1 above) folks.
If I’m part of a subsidiary of a large organization, and my parent organization is allows for criminal enterprise, I am either complicit or fighting it.
Now the one exception I would allow for ACAB are cops who try to walk the fine line between forcing change and not getting fired. I may not agree with them in their passivity, but if in full honesty they believe they are being the most positive force for change they can without no longer being a force for change at all, I suppose I can give them that. I don’t believe I’ve met a cop like that in person in my entire life.
I can definitely appreciate your words here. I can’t fault anyone for subscribing to ACAB. I would agree that the whole institution should be torn apart and rebuilt from the ground up. I don’t realistically think that will happen, but I would support it if it did.
I understand your viewpoint, I’m not sure I agree with everything, but I understand it.
The underlying issues that caused the problem described in the OP, are definitely a good argument for ACAB. You have also made good points, and it’s all valid. I won’t argue the facts, and I don’t have enough information to do so. I’m about as far from police paying attention to me as you can get. I live in an extremely rural area; it’s quiet, and I work from home. The regional police service drives through my little town maybe two or three times a day (from what I’ve heard) and I almost never even see the police unless something happens… Like someone finds that a house is being used to cook drugs, which has unfortunately happened, not far from me, or there’s a major fire or something, and they’re directing traffic.
The last time I even saw police in my area was a few months ago when they were surrounding a farmers field just outside of town. I can only guess that they chased someone into the field and lost them; I truly have no idea.
cops who try to walk the fine line between forcing change and not getting fired. I may not agree with them in their passivity, but if in full honesty they believe they are being the most positive force for change they can without no longer being a force for change at all,
What’s wild to me is that this is a movie trope that cops still perpetuate today. Dirty and corrupt cops and departments continue to exist, and just like in the movies you have some genuinely good people who are trying to do the best they can and change things.
I wonder almost if we need a campaign to extol that rare virtuous cop archetype so that more officers actually try to be like that. Either way we need sweeping legislation and cleaning house. Keep funding levels the same but mandate better cop pay + higher training requirements so that we have high quality people applying. Good jobs attract good people.
I think you link to some seriously deep facts about police. The irony is that in many areas (northeast) a lot of cops were Irish because they couldn’t get other jobs (racism), and they were neither particularly respected nor particularly free to be abusive. Boston, however, now has a fairly large police-racism problem against black people.
There is the fact that being a cop isn’t the best job, and the bigger fact that trying to be a good job basically dials the shit factor to 11. I guess it’s like the military in that it takes a particular kind of people to be a cop.
Think about it this way. You spend your days ruining others’ day over “the rules”, and sometimes you need to use force to lock a human in a cage. Not out of any weakness, but I couldn’t do that. I have too much sympathy for people. Physically overpowering somebody that just wants to get away and to safety. That’s just a non-starter for someone with my disposition.
So how do you get people like me who care about everyone into the police force? I feel like pay wouldn’t even be the start of it. I wouldn’t be a cop if it were the last job on earth.
I think a lot of it is going to come down to a cultural change. The toxic culture that currently exists needs to be replaced by one that is compassionate and focused on service. You shouldn’t be locking a human in a cage unless it is absolutely necessary for the well-being of others. I couldn’t lock away someone with a drug charge or who was provoked into a fight, but I can lock away someone who was actively and purposely hurting people. Mercy needs to be granted where possible, but it cannot come at the cost of the innocent.
At the end of the day, someone still submits to the police when arrested, whether willingly or because they’re already handcuffed. Handcuffs should be used sparingly, as a way to stop violent individuals until they calm down. Otherwise, or after the person is calm, they shouldn’t be forcibly detained. I think 90% of people would quietly go through the process, and that it could go as high as 99% if people had faith the process was quick and fair.
We will still need prisons for individuals who refuse help or remain violent. But the footprint of that could easily shrink by an order of magnitude. Most cases could be resolved with mandatory rehabilitation and mental healthcare. And as we have a more equitable and compassionate system, hopefully we’ll stop needing prisons entirely.
This is all very idealistic, but if we’re able to make reforms and changes to policing, we should be able to implement a lot of what I described. In short though, to address your point, we need police to be public guardians more than law enforcement.
I think a lot of it is going to come down to a cultural change
Which is where, to me, police needs to be largely defunded. You will never have a compassionate organization where seizure-by-force is a common occurence… but there are times where seizure-by-force is strictly necessary. IMO, that should be the only purpose left to police, emergent defence or executing a high-risk warrant. Everything civil should be reconciled to an unarmed department that specialized in compassionate management. As silly as it sounds, “unarmed cops” will save lives, possibly even cop lives.
Mercy needs to be granted where possible, but it cannot come at the cost of the innocent
It’s hard to get 2 people to see eye to eye on the purpose of criminal justice. For me, utilitarianism is the only valid reason to deprive a person of liberty: a criminal is still not a lesser human. Either the punishment needs to exhibit a proportional deterrent effect or imprisonment needs to be protecting society from a person who will do worse than kidnap a person for years on end. And while I’m probably more frugal on my sense of justice than you show to be, there are those who think the suffering IS the intent.
This is all very idealistic
But is it? Our crime rate is only about the world average and our violent crime rate on the low end, but our incarceration rate isn’t just the highest in the world, it’s at least 15% higher than the second-highest. Statistically speaking, we could pardon everyone but repeat murderers and still maintain a low crime rate. Heaven forbid we then turn that $80b (about $46k per current prisoner) into a welfare and prevention fund.
Yeah it might be better at this point to just build something new instead of trying to reform the police so extensively. Make them the enforcement arm and cut funding while we replace the overall thing with a much healthier system.
I generally agree with you though, although I’ll admit I probably want punishment from time to time on cases I hear about. Those are a pretty small fraction though of all cases, which is important to keep in mind. Our justice system seems to be designed around that small number of high profile cases. It should be the opposite, where we design the system for the majority of non violent crimes.
I’ll admit I probably want punishment from time to time on cases I hear abou
In fairness, a part of civilization’s responsibility is separating our baser instincts from what we actually do. What we want is not always what is right, even in cases a majority of us want it. That’s why the US’s Founding Fathers spoke of “Tyranny of the Majority”.
I’ve been a victim of crimes before. No violent ones, but there was significant damage for the 20-year-old me who had to deal with the aftermath. My knee-jerk reaction was “I hope they catch the bastard and throw the book at him”. But society isn’t about making our urge for revenge a reality. In fact, justice was historically often the opposite, assigning judgement consequences so that a mob of people with knives and rope would not.
I worked in the search area for the Marathon Bomber. He went to the same college my mother did when she was his age. There was a lot of emotion around that situation as you might imagine. But one thing struck me. Many of the victims’ families pushed against the death penalty because in Massachusetts we don’t really believe in it. We can be above our desire for revenge, seeking instead for the betterment of everyone.
Our justice system seems to be designed around that small number of high profile cases. It should be the opposite, where we design the system for the majority of non violent crimes.
I would say right now it’s designed around solving crime by locking everyone in cages for a long time. As a society, we have a bad habit of “us/them” attitudes with various classes, and criminals are one of them. Once empathy dies, we cannot fathom “what’s fair” and instead focus on “who is that person trying to be soft on crime?” The person advocating for the criminal is seen as “Just as bad”. Hell, just look at the way people think of criminal defense attorneys. Nobody seems to consider that their job is trying to prevent injustice and to keep people from being locked in cages for extended periods of times.
Well said, especially about defense attorneys. A fair justice system requires that someone provide a legal defense for someone who may appear clearly guilty. Likewise, there has to be a prosecutor to provide an opposing argument. In weighing those two arguments against each other, we can understand what really happened, and that’s what both the defense and plaintiff should want.
Revenge is certainly an interesting thing. I think it has its place, and it’s important to know when that is and isn’t. If someone hurts a loved one of mine deliberately and has no remorse, I don’t think I could advocate for forgiveness. If it was an accident or they felt remorse though, I don’t think I’d be capable of vengeance. It would be like murdering someone in cold blood at that point.
Either way, even if they were unrepentant, that’s what we have the justice system for. The person who is wronged probably won’t act rationally until they’ve made their peace with it. We can probably tie that to several global conflicts, where there is no independent arbiter. They just take irrational actions that lead to more violence.
You have a very naive understanding of the function that police performs in our society - I’m going to go ahead and guess that you are not aware of the history of policing? Spoiler alert - it is drenched in the ideology of white supremacism and the politics of colonialism and class warfare.
I’m not concerned with the history of it, so much as their intended task in current times.
There’s a LOT of things that have horrific history, just look at America in general. There are no living persons from those years still living, though we’re still working on getting rid of the mentalities that some had, from current generations. They’re generally a minority
Then you have a serious problem - if you don’t want to understand the history of policing, you will never understand their function now because it’s still the exact same function.
Man fucking generations of black, lation and emigrants in general dying and these fucks never have a fuck to give about inmate safety. If they start now, shiiittt we gotta get white people in to starvation, whater shortage, we gotta put white kinds in sweatshops…
Sudently I think we will finally see legislation that would reflect “our’ 'values”.
Officer Seth Brown tasered a 14 year old special needs child for allegedly breaking a window. Sergeant Scott Langan then attempted to murder the running child by shooting him in the back with a handgun.
But instead of suspension, Garza summoned a police officer to arrest Timothy at school. In a video that Rincon shared with the Observer, Timothy puts his arms up on a wooden shelf and waits to be handcuffed as directed by a police officer.
These are adults who feel threatened by an eleven-year-old child, because he asked some questions. The entire country should be ridiculing them until they’re too embarrassed to leave their homes.
It’s not legal to break into peoples’ homes, and if cops or anyone else decides to do it with a weapon… that’s pretty much exactly what stand your ground exists for.
Sounds like a “not guilty” to me, and maybe next time the 4 cops that didn’t get killed will take a different approach.
Interestingly, depending on the state, no-knock warrants are used for situations that could be considered “high-risk” for officers. I’m not arguing whether or not it should be legal. I’m just say that as of now, many states allow no-knock warrants.
No-knock raids for small time drug dealers is just a ridiculous idea. I can’t think of many scenarios where they do make sense at a private residence. If someone has such a small operation that they can get rid of all the evidence in one flush, they aren’t worth sending a SWAT team (and risking everyone’s life) for in the first place.
Like if it’s one guy suspected of dealing out of his only house, just wait until he goes to put the trash out or something wearing slippers and a bathrobe and have one cop roll up and say, “Hi, I’m Officer Smith. We have a warrant to search your house.” and then radio to your van full of colleagues a few blocks away. Achievement Unlocked: De-escalation.
It's almost like most mass shooters to date have been right wing fucks.
Hell, the Columbine kids were wannabe Nazis and had copies of Mein Kampf.
The Aurora shooter, on the other hand, one of the few cases where it was actually just a mental illness and not a cultlike belief in a twisted ideology.
I couldn’t figure out for the life of me why police would arrest a band director for playing music at a game. But it’s Alabama and his skin is the “wrong” color. Got it.
Goad and Johnson did not receive a judicial review for 46 hours. At that time, a local justice of the peace ruled that there was, in fact, no probable cause to detain them. The pair should have been set free immediately. But Lyde did not release the couple. He continued to jail them — contrary to the law and the Constitution.
…
Lyde then added, in comments that today ooze with irony: “I will tell you that I am an Oath Keeper in the sense that I will never subject you or anybody else in Clay County to things that are unconstitutional.”
This fascist fuck should do some hard time for depriving people of liberty under color of law.
Last year we had an indigenous person kill a cop in Canada and then run into a field with his gun. Cops arrested him without shooting him, despite him killing a cop, and being in a group that police have dislike towards.
Then, he complained about having pain, and the police called an ambulance to check him out before arresting him.
Had they not pulled their ruse, most likely there would not have been an issue. This is a case where the cops were trying to be cute and someone ended up being shot.
Go back to Reddit if you’re willing to write a paragraph about an article you didn’t read.
“The shooting occurred after Roberts, who had a .22 revolver with him, pointed his weapon at the two plainclothes officers after they confronted his brother.”
Pointed, not fired. In the other posters example, the person killed a cop, and still was arrested without being shot. They’re asking why American cops can’t do that.
I’m guessing the body cam doesn’t show the 22 being pointed at the officers since the article specifies everything else it saw but not that.
“The shooting occurred after Roberts, who had a .22 revolver with him, pointed his weapon at the two plainclothes officers after they confronted his brother. He did not fire, police body camera footage shows. After seeing Brooks Roberts’ gun, officers unleashed a storm of gunfire on him, the footage shows. Since Idaho is an open carry state, Roberts was within his rights to be holding the weapon.”
Any American citizen should be within their right to pull a weapon on an average person who is threatening them or their community members. Plain clothes cops should maybe be in uniform if they don't like that. It is every American citizen's right to be armed.
This "go back to reddit" nonsense from all the kids (maybe you're an adult, but it makes you seem like a kid) who read comments they don't like is getting really tedious. Maybe you ought to go back to reddit?
Dont get all high and mighty. The United States is an amazing country! We have to deal with all this ‘woke justice’ every day bringing down our country. Once they are finally purged them we can finally have our fascist utopia rich straight white men will finally have all the power again, as demanded by the bible (which I hear is a great book, but honestly who has time to read these days)
It is literally what our cops are taught in training. Look up "Killology" if you haven't heard of it. And no, despite the ridiculous name, I'm not joking; that is what a big part of their training is actually called.
As cities and states across the country pass ordinances cracking down on camping and homelessness…
Homelessness should only be a crime if houses are provided to everyone wherever you desire to live and then you chose to then be a public nuisance and sleep blocking a sidewalk or a street.
Until then, this is just disgusting. Our society is fucked.
Tasers were introduced to police forces so that the police could de-escalate potentially lethal situations with less-than-lethal means. 2 seconds later, tasers turned into replacements for billy clubs to mete out punishment. That was not their intended use.
Every time they do this, they are turning a non-violent event into a violent one.
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