Advice needed: encounter balancing for a party with 3 paladins

Hi there, fellow DMs!

I’m a fairly new DM (as in: I have around 20 sessions behind my back), and while my players seem to be enjoying the campaign, I’ve run into a bit of a problem.

Namely, that the three godsdamned paladins are trivializing most combat encounters.

They just leveled up to level 8, but even at level 7:

  • Attack rolls against them? LOL, CR 7-9 enemies usually have +6-+8 to hit at most; they will miss the paladins (and the cleric) in plate armor + shield 60-75% of the time.
  • Saving throw abilities and spells? Fuck me, aura of protection, everybody gets +2 or more to all their saves.
  • Even if a spell slips through? Ancients paladin. Whoever came up with the Aura of Warding at WotC deserves a kick in the head. Everybody near the paladin takes half damage from every spell (quarter if they make the save) because balancing encounters is soooooooooooooo easy!

And that is just their passive abilities. There’s of course the usual issue of smites (the three of them can easily deal 24d8 damage in one turn, that’s 108 on average - and that’s without accounting for crits or them stacking a smite spell on it too). Ranged enemies? LOL, orbital laser goes BZOT! (Moonbeam) Or they’ll just leave them to the ranger, cleric, and the warlock. And if they still get banged up, they have 105 HP of dedicated healing between them (plus the cleric and the ranger).

Is there any way to make combat encounters challenging for this party besides trying to overwhelm them through action economy (it’s a party of 6, so that would take a shitton of monsters and turn the combat into a slog), finding a way to force them into 6-8 encounters between long rests (wouldn’t do anything about the passive abilities but it would at least curtail the smite-nukes), or turning the game into Dark Souls with every monster being a horrible damage sponge that can one-shot any player on a hit?

Because at this point I’m afraid that anything shy of a tarrasque would be a minor inconvenience at best instead of a challenge or a boss.

Rednax,

I would use attrition. They have 7 spell slots. If they spend 2 of those per encounter, force them to have 4 encounters before they can long rest.

First warn them. Give then a hint that the dungeon is large and will mean quite some time without resting.

Then bait them. For example: an undead unit that has resistences against physical attacks, and does little damage, or is very easy to run away from. Maybe an undead slime blob or gas thing? E.g. www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Gas_Wisp_(5e_Creature)They may use their spell slots on divine smites to deal radiant damage. Even though there are plenty of other options in the arsenals of the other 3 players.

Or create a dungeon that forces them to split the party to progress, allowing them to reunite during or after the battle. This could give you several turns where you can exploit the weaknesses of a divided group.

gerusz, (edited )

They have 7 spell slots.

They actually have 9 each with Harness Divine Power. (I don’t think they even know what their other channel divinity options are.) Which comes to a total of 27 smite slots per long rest among the three of them, 15 of them level 2. That’s 69d8 (nice!) radiant damage just from smites against non-undead, non-fiendish creatures, and without crits or the weapon damage, averaging to around 310.

(And again, I have to ask myself: what the fuck were the WotC peeps smoking when they designed the paladin? HDP for clerics is a minor boost that restores spell slots of their low-level spells, roughly equivalent to the wizard’s arcane recovery or the sorcerer’s sorcery point conversion. HDP for paladins restores one of their highest level damaging abilities, and they even get the 3/day version earlier than the clerics. As if the already pretty busted base class needed another boost.)

Splitting the party sounds good from the DM’s tactical perspective, but it’s horrible from the players’ fun perspective. It’s basically twice the prep for the DM, only for half the party to spend half the session scrolling on TikTok.

Rheios,

Have you considered an anti-magic field area of considerable size? That’s hardly a good continual response but it may allow a more challenging encounter, especially if the field can be briefly turned off by characters expending spell slots into a single dangerous spot while being attacked. Since it prevents Divine smites and the bonuses. (Someone could 5e-argue that probably, since its pretty nonsensical with class abilities at times but I’d just overrule it.) You can even use it with Mindflayers or other psionic aberrations, since arguably their abilities can still work if you rule they can. (Psionics don’t necessarily equal magic unless you set some other precedent.)

Other concepts are to add hazards and chaos causers to battlefields. Floating clouds of glittering fog that reflect spells to random other targets, negative-energy/undead quicksand bogs that leech endurance instead of doing damage (and whose saves are to avoid getting stuck not to avoid the drain), unsteady floors to drop out and separate parts of the party, or lair effects that randomly teleport characters back to earlier areas of a dungeon, forcing them to run back through to get back into the fight (don’t overuse that one but if there are traps earlier its a great way to force them to ignore traps in their rush).

Also just tasks to do while being attacked. The paladins + cleric can defend well together but force them to be separated into different regions doing a task and you up the tension (even if you don’t up the danger).

You can also try bringing forward older monsters that undercut benefits/items. Black Puddings, Rust Monsters (Or their papa Annihilators), or port over other monsters like Magerippers or Spellweavers from 3.5.

Traps can also be good, since they may be taking 1/4 damage on a save, but if the traps also cause inconveniences or force them through alternate, and slowly more damaging paths (like crawling through a stone brambled tunnel instead of taking the other tunnel because it caved in and almost crushed them), they can still build up and be valuable.

Also if they’re incredibly proficient in combat, the enemies probably know that by this level. So you might have to start attacking them legally or socially, depending on the situation. Or just start having foes avoid them. Make them burn resources to set up engagements where foes can’t run or attack them when they’re on their back foot relaxing with assassins in the bathrooms, poisons in the bar bread, false accusers of horrible crimes on the streets and in court. (Depending on who their foes are of course.) You do that so that their character get paranoid. Start trading things like spell slots, the benefits of sleep, or close allies to try and defend themselves, so that they’re weakened before they even touch something like a dungeon. If they party is just too invincible in combat as it is, don’t just attack them there, let them know that existence is sortof a threat. (And as before, how much you use it is important an should be informed by session 0. You want them tense and excited, not miserable, and “the world as the DM’s weapon” isn’t necessarily the right way to approach it but its a nice tool to have in the chest. Hammer finds nail and all that.)

InEnduringGrowStrong,

3 paladins, 6 players, what’s the other 3?
Any fireballs?
A mob of smaller enemies could give a bit of work to paladins, between raw numbers and pack tactics or stuff like that.
Running hordes by Sly Flourish might help keep it reasonably flowing: slyflourish.com/running_hordes.html
Even if they get fireballed, at least those characters get to shine for once.

Keep in mind that you, as a DM, “win” whenever everyone’s having fun, not when you beat them.
That said, it sure is fun for everyone when you give them a challenge.

You can also put pressure on them indirectly.
If they’re so fearful, maybe the monsters just avoid them so they can focus on easier pickings.
Their martial prowess is unmatched, sure, but how do the bad guys deal with it?
Maybe the bbeg sacrifices fodder to occupy the party to buy themselves time to focus on whatever ritual or macguffin.
Even goblins could overwhelm them eventually, given the numbers. A hundred? A thousand?

Also, the party can’t be everywhere at once.
The ones occupying the PCs die just fine, but the other hundred still ransacked the town.
Whether the PCs crush the monsters might not matter to your bbeg if they can just delay them long enough to accomplish their goals.
Maybe the bbeg has a doppelganger win their trust or manipulates them somehow.

Mechanically, your paladins probably dumped dex or int. Feeblemind, Enemies Abound, Mebtal Prison, Synaptic Static or even Mind Sliver could be annoying.
But then, is it fun? Idk.
A few mindflayers ambushing them, or maybe a vampire turning a beloved NPC.
If you can’t challenge their martial prowess, challenge their morals.
Will the party keep messing with the bbeg plans, or will they focus their efforts on saving that npc, buying the bbeg time.

Maybe a one way portal can spice things up more than a bag of hp or a save-or-suck effect.
Idk

gerusz,

Any fireballs?

Worse. One of the other players is a Forge cleric. Wall of Fire, Guardian of Faith, or Spirit Guardians all make mincemeat out of minions. Then there’s a hexblade who can treat minions like medkits on legs. And a ranger who can use hail of thorns to cluster bomb them.

My goal of course isn’t a TPK, it’s to make them sweat for their victory, for once. And in that, I’m feeling like a failure. Combats should feel meaningful, after all, with real stakes and uncertainty. But as of now the only uncertainty about them is whether the paladins will finish it in 3 turns, or 2 because they roll a crit.

(I do have a mindflayer encounter prepped in the near future, but it won’t last long either. If any of them make the save vs. the mind blast - and some will, because 1) Aura of Protection, and 2) Their dice loathe me - then they will turn it into calamari in about 0.00234 nanoseconds. Whatever minions I throw in won’t matter at that point.)

InEnduringGrowStrong,

Take a few mindflayers, including arcanists.
Sure, the party could wreck them in close combat, they know that.
Levitating to be our of melee, splitting/cornering the party with a wall of force in a nice ambush spot with difficult terrain, and just mind blasting them.
If they ever lose the upper hand, they can just plane shift and come back later, better prepared.
Maybe their minion fodder are hobgoblin warlords.

I feel like most enemies encountering this party would avoid the melee meat grinder if at all possible.
The party can probably wreck an aboleth too if they face off head-on, not that the aboleth would give them such an opportunity.

I’d recommend TheMonstersKnow.com [… what they’re doing].
It’s a blog which is also available in book form with tactics for monsters.

gerusz,

I tried restraining the paladins before.

Any restraint that can be escaped with a save is useless. They all have very high strength scores, not too shabby DEX, and there’s the Aura of Protection. And when I tried any other restraint, they just misty-stepped out of it because, hey, why have a class that can tank, heal, buff, DPS, and be the face of the party when you can have a class that can tank, heal, buff, DPS, be the face of the party, and can jump in the face of any ranged enemy who tries to abuse their one weak spot? “Party balance? Dafuq is that?” - WotC, probably. (I’m just glad there’s no fighter in the party, they would feel absurdly useless.)

I know about The Monsters Know… but if the monsters knew what they were doing, it would be a reeeeeeeeeally boring campaign, because the monsters know not to be where this party is.

Thanks anyway!

Hircon,
@Hircon@ttrpg.network avatar

Wow that does sound like a challenge to balance for! Here’s a few things to keep in mind.

  1. A larger group of players is usually going to need more enemies for any given combat to be challenging. If you’re using a prewritten adventure or an encounter builder of some sort, consider bumping up the number of monsters a little.
  2. Consider alternate objectives/fail states. This can take some creativity to pull off, but introducing something like hostages in danger, or a thief trying to carry away some of the party’s loot during combat can make things much more interesting. This can be especially effective with paladins, when what their oath says they should do conflicts with the tactically correct move.
  3. When they can, enemies will want to create advantage before the fight even starts. Letting the players into sticky webs, slippery floors, or a prepared portcullis can restrict their movement and create openings to attack. They might also try to break or disarm weapons or shields when they see the paladins are hard to hit head on.
  4. It’s good for the players to feel powerful! Most encounters should be challenging, and the players should occasionally be pushed to their limits in a boss fight, but a few cakewalk encounters are good to have too. They’re especially good when they’re similar to a fight the players had a lot of trouble with 3 or 4 levels ago to highlight just how strong the characters have become.
gerusz,

Thanks for the tips! Though I’m not too sure how to implement them more than I already am:

  1. It’s a homebrew campaign and I’m trying to use the encounter balance tool from 5e tools. But it’s still worthless; I threw “absurd” encounters at them and they still obliterated it.
  2. Unfortunately I’m not sure how to create an alternate objective for a combat encounter that isn’t also achieved by just destroying the enemy in 2-3 turns. Kind-of like Counter Strike; sure, you can try to rescue the hostages or plant the bomb but it’s often easier to just kill the opposing team. Sure, I did manage to run a boss fight that lasted longer because they had to complete secondary objectives (get some of his blood with a special dagger, then defend the allied casters conducting a ritual that would turn off his insane regeneration) before they got to nuke him, and the fight had two more phases after that. But that’s not an amount of prep that I’m willing to do for any run-on-the-mill difficult encounter, it was the arc-villain of one of their backstories.
  3. Misty step. :(
  4. Sure, if they murder the shit out of a gang of bandits who gave them some trouble in the second session, that’s fine. The problem is when they take down the homebrew CR17 fire giant lord in less than two turns in-game, and less time IRL than it took to actually homebrew it. (At least I learned that 3 legendary actions are only adequate for a party of 4; for a party of N the number of legendary actions for a boss should be N-1.)

The next big quest they will probably undertake is slaying a dragon. (They know about the dragon, it’s a known problem in the region, and they expressed interest in slaying it both in and out of character.) I plan to introduce the dragon by having it wreck a related side mission they are sent on, but I can only hope and pray to Tymora, the Lady, and any other deity of dice rolls that I won’t have to tear up the prep for the next 9-10 sessions thanks to some lucky dice rolls from the players’ part.

breadsmasher,
@breadsmasher@lemmy.world avatar

Maybe use more weaker enemies? They might be able to deal a lot of damage in one turn but its across relatively few enemies. Rather than trying to increase the difficulty of one or two enemies in combat, provide a larger number of weaker ones.

This would mean,

  1. They either “waste” large amounts of damage overkilling a weak enemy
  2. Hold back their smites etc to not “waste” it on a small enemy
  3. More enemies than they have combat actions starts to allow for enemies to have a turn at hitting them

You can of course include some beefier enemies as well.

Does the party just brute force into combat, smashing everything they can see without thought? Throw in some hidden enemies, ambush them if they aren’t checking for possible ambushes

gerusz,

The smite damage isn’t even the biggest of my problems. (It’s up there, yes, but not in the #1 slot.) The passive auras are more annoying. Seriously, no-resource spell damage resistance? Whose brilliant idea was that?! Was it even playtested?

Though either way, any ideas about tossing in a lot of enemies without turning the game into a slog? I already had to break out the hourglass to keep turns under 10 minutes (6-player party…)

alaphic,

Wait, so you’re DMing for a party of 3 paladins, a cleric, a ranger, and a warlock? o_0

gerusz,

Yup. My best idea at this point is to toss a mindflayer at them, not a single one of them have a positive INT modifier.

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