The first step to not looking bad is to stop worrying how you look to other people and start caring about how you look to yourself. If I am wearing it and casually conducting business, it’s business casual. If there’s an explicit clothing dress code (eg long pants, shirt with a collar), I’ll wear what I want that fits that. Overdressing is also never a problem.
I'm absolutely all for personal style, but some offices actually have a meaningful, although vague, business casual dress code, and if you come in dressed in a way that violates their norm, people will think less of you. My last office had a very vague and non-enforced business casual dress code, but if you came in wearing jeans and a hoodie and no button up, you'd stand out in a bad way. If you came in wearing sweatpants... I mean, nobody was that awkward, but if you did, I'm sure your boss would pull you aside and say something.
What's more—people come here looking for advice. It's right in the name of the community, malefashionadvice. Some people don't know how to express themselves through clothing. They worry about how they look. To themselves, sure. They want to improve their style, so they appreciate articles like this that show them a new way to dress, or give them guidance on how to achieve those aesthetics.
So it's odd to deflect from good advice and defend bad advice on the basis of style being personal in the context of a particular dress code, in an advice community. If you want to discuss the particular advice at hand, feel free, but I would like to help men dress better. Yes, by their own standards.
I don’t have a problem with fashion advice. I have a problem with you putting people down. The way you have presented it here is the right way to approach dress codes: how do you fit the business’s norm? The way you presented it before (“don’t look like a schmuck”) is the issue. If you don’t see the difference, that’s part endemic toxic attitude.
The way you presented it before (“don’t look like a schmuck”) is the issue.
I mean, the article presented it like that, but I think that's many men's goal. They come around and ask, not how to dress well, not how to look cool, just how to not look terrible. It's a low standard, but it's the standard many men have for themselves, so it's a good way to frame advice.
I'm not sure why you took this as though I insulted some particular person or class of people. There's no way for anybody to read the title or read any of my comments and take it personally, so I'm not sure where you see the toxicity, but... yeah, that's not what toxicity is to me.
that would not meet my definition of business casual, and also would not necessarily satisfy the "without looking like a schmuck" criteria, plenty of men wear jeans and a hoodie and look like schmucks.
That kind of toxic attitude is why people struggle with self-image. You’re only responsible for yourself. If you want to shit on how someone else looks, go back to kindergarten because you missed a few lessons.
I'm not shitting on anybody, I'm just saying hypothetically, if you set out to wear business casual and not look like a schmuck, "jeans and a hoodie" is not a good strategy, it's not good advice. Business casual usually at least involves a button up, a hoodie is pretty definitively casual-casual, and you should also consider fit and proportion and color and material and texture and pattern. And shoes, shoes matter.
If you don't care, fine, wear whatever you want. Style is personal, and the business casual dress code is very silly.
But if people come here wanting to do the thing described in the title, somebody recommending "jeans and a hoodie" is actively misleading them with terrible, terrible advice. The advice provided in the article is very good advice, although it's generally on the dressy side of business casual.
plenty of men wear jeans and a hoodie and look like schmucks
How is this “not shitting on anybody?” You doubled down on the toxic attitude by doubling down on saying people need to“not look like a schmuck.” Your judgement of how other people look is the problem.
See, I think there's a meaningful and gigantic difference between shitting on hypothetical men where nobody, anywhere could possibly be insulted by the thing I said, and shitting on actual people where you can look down and possibly feel insulted. I don't think the former actually counts as "shitting on people," and it certainly isn't toxic. I'm just saying that it's possible to look like a schmuck in jeans and a hoodie—if they don't fit, if there's a stupid pattern or logo or something on one of them... It's not helpful to just say "jeans and a hoodie" and assume men can figure out the aesthetic.
I didn't say that people needed to not look like schmucks. I was very clear. Again, if you don't care about how you look, wear whatever you want, it's not important. For that matter, if you like how you look, good for you, style is personal. I'd say it's toxic to come here and accuse me of saying the opposite of what I said.
But I'd like to help the men who want to dress better, and in this case, men who want to follow a business casual dress standard. If offering help according to the literal title of community is inherently toxic to you, I'd recommend not being a part of the community.
I like nailhead shirts personally but literally any button up looks nice. Generally I do long sleeve for fall and winter and you could just do an OGIO polo for summer. Here’s a button up on Amazon I’d suggest
Red House Mens Nailhead Non-Iron Button-Down Shirt, Medium, Tan a.co/d/fe2OwpG
I'd imagine most people in this community care at least a little. But you can go ahead, you've solved fashion, go to a community you do care about instead.
Does anybody care about any standard at all? Because you said literally any button up. I think most men here have a higher standard for the advice they want than that. Which is to say, they want advice.
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