Interesting perspective. It would be really mind-blowing to see the other side of the gender, even though I have no interest in being trans.
One thing I will add to this article is that men are also viewed as little more than bank machines after divorce. People always have the utmost sympathy for any mother who is separated from her children, even if only for a few days. Movie plots can revolve around mothers finding their lost children and being reunited. But for men? We’re only the providers, the ones who pay the child support.
I lost my kids (not legally, just boring old classic parental alienation) six years ago following the divorce. Nobody cares, because I’m just a man. Not even my own father cares. He happily continues to see his grandkids because he doesn’t want to “take sides.” None of my cousins or other parts of my family care either. So long as I’m paying my “support.” And I can’t complain about it on social media because I’m a man. I’m a stoic. Boys don’t cry, remember?
The lack of emotional support for men mentioned in the article is another thing that really exacerbates divorces and leads to suicides. I do feel like if I were the type of person to contemplate suicide (I’m not), I would have definitely done it when my ex took my kids from me. And there would have been no male friends to pull me back from the edge. Those friendships are, to quote the author, superficial to a large degree, or even the ones that aren’t are men who are now focused heavily on their own families and wives.
I mean, it’s also true all the other stuff about the male privilege and feeling safe and the good things that come with being a man. But it’s nice to see the perspective of how we lack emotional support and we’re expected to grit our teeth and “walk it off.”
Nobody cares, because I’m just a man. Not even my own father cares. He happily continues to see his grandkids because he doesn’t want to “take sides.” None of my cousins or other parts of my family care either. So long as I’m paying my “support.” And I can’t complain about it on social media because I’m a man. I’m a stoic. Boys don’t cry, remember?
That is the worst. So sorry you’re having to deal with that and not get support from the men in your life.
I’m sorry about the parental alienation you and your children have suffered, that’s terrible for everyone.
Not even my own father cares. He happily continues to see his grandkids because he doesn’t want to “take sides.”
I’m confused why you wouldn’t want him to see them. Isn’t in your best interest to have people who love you and think you’re a good dad in your kids’ lives? Somebody to counter the alienating narrative in whatever ways they can?
Not OP, but yes, obviously. It’s still different than being in their kids’ lives and even if the grandfather is supportive, it’s no replacement for direct interaction. I also think there is the question of weather the grandparent will be supportive of OP or protective of the relationship with the grandkids when faced with a difficult decision with regard to who they need to win favor with.
Oh I’m fine with him seeing his grandkids but he has no empathy for my situation, considering it a dispute between myself and my ex. He even shares details from his trips to see them, as though that wouldn’t hurt me to hear about it. His lack of empathy is the problem.
My mother, on the other hand, criticized my ex for the situation and was “cut off.” So, despite the fact I’m sad that my mother can’t see her grandkids because she, unlike my dad, did take sides, I feel like she had the empathy to stick up for her son and point out it the situation isn’t right.
I will also mention my brother was “cut off” because of his close associations with me.
In “theory” or “legally” I have 50-50 custody. In practice, it’s nearly impossible to enforce visitation with older children. My kids were 15 and 9 when we split. Immediately, the courts said enforcement on the 15-year-old was impossible. I spent a few years battling enforcement on the 9-year-old but she soon also became unenforceable. At a certain point you can’t win if the kids also don’t want to see you or make your visit a nightmare by passively resisting.
I was in the middle of one of these court battles when my daughter became anorexic and told the medical staff she didn’t want me to visit her in hospital. She was about 13 and that was the last I saw her.
Legally, I am a 50-50 parent but in reality the only thing I’m entitled to do is pay their mother $1,000 a month.
I am very low contract with my mother and sister because they kept my ex as a friend after all her bullshit through the divorce. I put on a show for my son to have sort of normal family times at holidays, etc. but I mostly do not connect with them outside of time with my son. We are NOT friends.
So, internet stranger. I understand the crazy bullshit that comes with divorce for a man.
And it is amazing how quickly and thoroughly men are discarded after a divorce. Disposable indeed.
In a perfect world I could have had an amicable divorce from my ex and everybody could have stayed in touch and been happy.
Instead I had a “Michael Bay” divorce where everything went really explosive and badly. It’s sad because I see a lot of example – such as our own prime minister – who have a great divorce where everybody is respectful and mature and life goes happily on.
I’ve tried to explain to my dad how screwed up it is that he maintains a relationship with my ex despite my zero contact with my kids but he doesn’t care. Actually, he went to my exes wedding with her new husband last month, which involved him flying to my city. He didn’t visit me, which is really the extra cherry on the shit sundae.
Yeah, divorce was similar for me. I was discussing and considering collaborative divorce with my lawyer until I was served the restraining order...which I got dismissed. That started about 2 years of legal theater propelled by stupid amounts of money.
You do find out just how selfish your family is when you go through a divorce, don't you? And how little they really care about you.
At a certain point I went "Bush" on family/friends: If you're not for me then you're against me. I still think it brought me back to some sort of sanity in dealing with people. And taking the trash people out of my life.
A story all too common. Someone I know mine got divorced a number of years ago. He’s a fun, charming, kind, decent looking fellow in good shape for his age, and I can’t imagine he did anything to deserve what happened. I don’t know all the details of their divorce, but I know all but one of his children was poisoned against him by his (now ex) wife, and it’s only because the one happened to be away long term at the time.
His ex has several advanced degrees and is more than capable of earning six figures. And yet, he was still ordered to pay her spousal support and a sizable chunk of his pension. The divorce and family court system is absolutely fucked for men and it’s a small wonder so many of them contemplate drastic measures when their lives are ripped away from them.
Feminism gave women all of the same rights and privileges as men and then conveniently “forgot” to balance out all of the exclusive rights women get just for being women.
Feminism gave women all of the same rights and privileges as men
Feminism hasn’t done that yet, we’re nowhere near equal rights and opportunities for women and if you don’t believe me, look at the gender balance in US government roles and who has the money and power.
Let’s focus on dismantling patriarchy and the harm it creates for men as well.
This is BS, currently feminism looks to only strive after the cozy office places and various places of power. I didnt seen feminism once to call for equal numbers of female rig workers, construction workers, Alaska fishing jobs and similar… Feminists are mysteriously somehow always just after the lucrative office jobs…
They can both be problems simultaneously, and it’s disingenuous to argue that there aren’t militant feminists pushing to keep all of the advantages from earlier eras.
This is a men’s lib forum, and men’s liberation is pro feminist (feel free to check the wiki or that nice bell hooks quote trending on this forum if you disagree).
By being a strong ally to women, men benefit too, and I choose to keep doing that.
You can have the last word if you like, I’m gonna peace out here.
I hope I’m not intruding on men’s spaces here as a transwoman,
But after my transition that was one of the biggest, most drastic contrasts between the two binary gender’s social dynamics. Men just don’t get to talk about their feelings- whether it stems from homophobia or misogyny, men are generally seen as an island to themselves and if you display otherwise, it is seen as a weakness worthy of admonition and disrespect. There is still a societal expectation that men are supposed to be stoic, stable providers while women are increasingly allowed liberation. Hard fought, and rightly so but what’s the point of “equality” if we don’t lift everyone up to the same standards?
I have never felt more emotional support in my entire life than when I stepped into women’s spaces, seen as a woman. This just isn’t fair or right, regardless of the other privelages men may have. Justice is for everyone, not just minorities.
Yet, it is up to men to decide this. Yes, women can and should support you, but remember who has the most power to change these standards. Women didn’t have to demand other women for suffrage, they had to demand it from men. It is the same here for emotional liberation.
*An edit for an addendum: I hope nobody reads this feeling that I’m blaming men, or being accusational. I want to clarify that I believe men do have the power to change this culture of emotional isolationism but it will require self-reflection, effort and a strong demand from oneself and other men to be willing to seek liberation- at the risk of what comes with shaking up the status quo.
I have never felt more emotional support in my entire life than when I stepped into women’s spaces, seen as a woman.
As a women that, granted, had some serious questions about gender in my younger years this has always blown my mind because it’s so multi-faceted.
Women are more emotionally supportive, but it can quickly spiral into an almost gross-feeling and superficial reinforcement. Everything seems to be “valid” or demands an emotion-ridden hullabaloo, whereas the men in my life have always been more direct and straightforward, unafraid to call out my general jack-assery or quip “yeah, that sucks” when there’s not much else to be said about my general state of affairs.
The flip side of this is that women tend to be more sympathetic/vocal to general life events and encouraging to mild up or down days, whereas men tend to cock an eyebrow and ask what you’re so excited/upset about when you show up to work “having feelings” on a random Tuesday because your spouse threw a fit about leftover spaghetti that morning.
The dichotomy is fascinating to me, to watch unfold every day with every interaction. I find myself (not correctly or incorrectly) leaning towards men in times of crisis (muted response), and towards women in times of -life in general- (exacerbated response) because it gives me the mean/median output of (normal human response).
However, this doesn’t mean men only have “regular” mode or “crisis” mode, or that women only live in an amplified wave of “normal” and “slightly less normal”, and I think that’s where we find our faults. Our definition of the masculine and the feminine revolve around a dead sun that no longer serves us well. Men ARE emotionally supportive, and women ARE reserved/stoic, it’s just not always what you expect at the time so it gets glossed over and deleted, to the detriment of everyone.
Women didn’t have to demand other women for suffrage, they had to demand it from men. It is the same here for emotional liberation.
First, this is a long comment, and I don’t want to come off as dissing it. I agree with you. Except for that concluding thought.
I used to think that that was true, women vs. men for voting rights. But about ten years ago, I wandered into the Berkeley Historical Society. They had a bunch of materials on display about the women’s suffrage movement, including just boxes of documents. One of the first ones that I pulled out was a poster for an anti-suffrage meeting. A meeting organized by women.
In fact, they had lots of documentation about anti-suffrage efforts by the society women of Berkeley. That completely shocked me, given Berkeley’s crunchy reputation. But I did more research later, and found that it was not at all unusual.
Up until the early years of the 20th century, most women were against it! Even when the 15th Amendment passed, a large minority of women still opposed it. As well, quite a lot of men supported it. (Obviously, they had, to since they were the ones voting to pass it.)
Anyway, the framing of the issue as women demanding the vote from men is oversimplified.
but remember who has the most power to change these standards. Women didn’t have to demand other women for suffrage, they had to demand it from men.
Not really. Power has traditionally been held by couples, with men putting on the act and women pulling the strings behind the scenes. Our forefathers even created an entire institution known as marriage to establish these alliances formally. In fact, for a long, time women were more likely to be a part of the anti-suffragism movement than of the suffragism movement.
Even voting rights at the time were attached to land, not people. Before industrialization, it was impractical to own land without an entire family available to tend to it. A single man would never be able to cut the wood, grow the crops, care for the animals, and do all the household chores. There isn’t enough time in the day. As such, land ownership too was for couples – thus voting was for couples.
Industrialization was the turning point. It brought increasing opportunities to live a life alone, and those alone started growing more and more disgruntled about a world made for couples.
I believe men do have the power to change this culture of emotional isolationism but it will require self-reflection, effort and a strong demand from oneself and other men to be willing to seek liberation- at the risk of what comes with shaking up the status quo.
I don’t. Such movements happen because of technical advancement. Industrialization, as mentioned, was a pivotal time not only for suffrage but a number of movements. The rise of automation, freeing even more hands from the kitchen, was also a significant period with respect to these topics. These things would have never happened without those new, at the time, technologies changing the way we live.
When the world changes, then people change. There is little evidence that people can change ahead of the world. After all, things happen for a reason. There was logic in giving power to couples at some point in history – until the world changed and it no longer made sense.
Similarly, men are guarded today for a reason. Until some technical advancement lifts that reason from hanging over their heads, it isn’t going anywhere. Going to war against an immovable object doesn’t yield well.
Rather than intruding, transitioned individuals ought to be seen as the strongest allies - on both sides of the fence. The lived experience you being to the table is tremendously valuable because it is so indisputably valid.
It’s not only a question of men. If you want a romantic relationship, you need to fit the society’s standards for the sex you are looking for. If women are looking for toxic virility, the sad truth is that men who embrace it will have an easier time finding a relationship.
This is not something you take from anyone. And this is the biggest problem many men have with the #metoo era: we acknowledge toxic masculinity is toxic and can even be deadly, but what is the alternative? There is none currently.
There is no model for modern men that is worthy of both modern men and women. This is why we have incels and other hardcore conservative going hard on hating women or even more toxic masculinity.
But I digress. The solution is not in a fight, it’s in acceptance from both men and women.
Thank you for sharing. I haven’t figured out the magic words to communicate this well. I worked at a company that proudly announced longer maternity care for newborns, an astounding (for the US) 6 months. Fathers got 2. I’m a dad and wasn’t going to have any more kids, but some of us spoke up and suggested that dads deserve time with their children as well. It was explained that mothers have special connections with children (nursing) and are genetically (yuck) more loving caretakers. Their brains are wired for empathy, so they deserve more time. Remember when we all agreed it was awful to say men are better at logic and reasoning? Me neither because it was so long ago. How is this okay? And we wonder why far more women drop out of the workforce to become full time parents.
There’s a theory that women quit to care for kids because they don’t have enough support, so let’s give them extra time off, extra health care benefits, recovery support, reinforcing stereotypes and gender roles. It’s the most ass backward approach to what should be the goal to encourage husbands to take larger roles in families. When a man speaks up, he’s part of the patriarchy, suppressing women’s voices. Women need to be heard and supported, not mansplained. If anyone can suggest how to change the conversation without being labeled a bully while simultaneously being bullied, I would love to learn.
I’m a white, cis, heterosexual American male. I’m supposed to be privileged in every way, feel endlessly guilty over things I cannot control and try not to perpetuate, and never, ever dare suggest any kind of dissatisfaction with my situation.
I wouldn’t know how to express my feelings the way the author has. I’d feel like a misogynistic neckbeard, callous racist, or ungrateful whiner. If, somehow, I didn’t feel these things, someone would quickly, loudly, and condescendingly remind me that I should. They’d then be applauded for putting me in my place.
I can’t thank the author enough for writing this article.
I didn’t feel these things, someone would quickly, loudly, and condescendingly remind me that I should. They’d then be applauded for putting me in my place.
Those people are racist, sexists. If they didn’t have you to target, they’d find another group. Don’t give them the time of day.
I’m supposed to be privileged in every way, feel endlessly guilty over things I cannot control and try not to perpetuate, and never, ever dare suggest any kind of dissatisfaction with my situation.
Why are you supposed to e.g. “feel endlessly guilty over things you cannot control”?
"Check your privilege" has only ever meant that people want others to understand how situations and histories might be different. White guilt is a thing white people made up to make it about them.
It's generally just people not being able to accept being wrong about something. They take it as a personal insult and hit to their pride rather than just going oh? Verify? Oh shit, neat.
Instead it's I must be a piece of shit. Other people must not like me now. They must be talking about me...
Mother fucker nobody paying attention to you but MAYBE yourself and MAYBE your closest loved ones lol.
If you walk around in life with a chip on your back, everything becomes an insult though. It's the literal republican modus operandi primed mostly through religion via guilt.
Fortunately, it’s not anger in my case. It’s “just” poor self esteem and a tendency to feel guilt for things that I know (rationally, at least) aren’t my fault.
Yeah it's definitely a hard habit to break. Largely depending on how you were raised with a bit of natural tendencies here and there.
It absolutely is a mindset though. One which you can get out of given enough challenge, time, patience, and professional help if you're not good with executive function.
People who share some of my characteristics have historically done, and are currently doing, absolutely horrible things. Empathy with the victims isn’t enough for some. I’m part of the problem simply by being born, until I prove otherwise.
I can’t blame people who feel some suspicion and resentment, either. It’s justified.
But that doesn't mean you have to feel guilty. That's, usually at least, not what people are asking for either. Guilt isn't helpful.
Being aware of the social systems we live under, the power structures those systems create, and the blind spots we might have. That's what's being asked for.
No, it isn’t helpful. Part of that guilt comes from not being able to do enough. Yeah, I try to learn as much as possible, but that only goes so far. I’m not rich. I’m not powerful. There’s so much injustice that I want to change, but can’t.
I know logically that guilt is useless, but the feeling persists.
I’m part of the problem simply by being born, until I prove otherwise.
Again: who is saying that? I’m sure there are some people who do, but in my experience that’s a really tiny minority. And the majority of texts I read about e.g. (male) privilege explicitly state that being privileged does not mean you’re guilty or a bad person.
I can’t blame people who feel some suspicion and resentment, either. It’s justified.
I mean yeah, I can understand why a women might prefer to walk on the other side of the street from me at night. It hurts of course, but I understand it. That doesn’t mean I need to feel guilty about it though.
Honest question, what’re your thoughts on the racial reparations discussion? I was surprised to hear that it exists tbh, mostly cause of how impossible it seems as a target. But my understanding is that there are people getting some real attention saying that white people should give enough money that they can’t pay their bills to make up for their privilege.
I haven’t heard of it. In Germany there is some discussion about reparations for societies colonized by Germany, the genocides against the Herero and Namaqa and every once about further reparations for the Nazi crimes - all of which make a lot of sense to me, especially the former two as they haven’t received any significant reparations that I know of.
I’m not American but the minister for Family/Sexual Violence in my country publicly said that “it is white, cis men” who “cause[s] violence in the world”. Was pretty gutted to find out that my ex (cis woman) treating me like shit is entirely my own fault according to the MP who is supposed to represent all victims of family, sexual, and relationship violence.
feel endlessly guilty over things I cannot control and try not to perpetuate, and never, ever dare suggest any kind of dissatisfaction with my situation.
Because of things our ancestors did long ago that has nothing to do with us right now as people.
This really resonates, mainly because it’s so true. I think a lot of men these days are feeling lost, sad, lonely, and angry. Some of us think it’s because we have forgotten what it means to be a “real” man, and the answer is more bravado, more machismo. But maybe what we actually need is to start learning to communicate with each other on a meaningful level, to redefine manhood in a way that allows us to express emotions in a socially acceptable way, and start forming real, close friendships with other men.
It’s an important topic that is often brushed off due to the individuals that tend to bring them up. The problem is though, that the problems these individuals have are in part caused by the lack of emotional support men receive socially.
I’m not defending any of the macho know-it-all “gurus” that I’m talking about, but I’m just pointing out that it’s important for women as well as men to care about this issue and try to change it in their daily lives, because aside from being toxic to men, it also creates more problems and worsens the existing ones.
How do you try to change it? Just open up more serious conversations with men, talk about feelings, even if they look at you weird at the beginning.
As a married cis man moving towards his 40s, I can only confirm from my perspective that the male-to-male friendship experience seems broken.
First of all, in college I learned about the performative nature of gender and that gave me the tools I needed to push back against social pressure. I wear what’s comfortable, I try to be considate towards others, I talk about emotions, and I do what sounds fun without a care about whether it makes me “feminine” or “gay”. I feel that pushing against gender performance expectations has made me a better and fulfilled person.
But male-male friendships are still really hard, and I don’t get it. I’ve lost all of mine, for various reasons. Some of us got busy with careers, families, or whatever other reason. I’ve reached out now, multiple times, over the last few years, to old male friends and coworkers that I worked with for 5+ years.
The conversation starts with a list of accomplishments. I congratulate them, so glad they’re doing well. We’re both pretty happy in careers too.
I ask how they’re doing, what do they do for fun, you still with that same girl? Fine. Same old. Uh huh.
I suggest that maybe we should do something sometime. Play disc golf. Play some games. Hang out. Meet somewhere. Bring your kids if you want, I’d love to meet them…and at this point they get distant and eventually ghost me.
After a few instances of this, I started to wonder if there’s something wrong with me. Maybe they didn’t like me. Maybe I said something wrong. But there was one other instance. A woman I worked with for like 9 months. I called her once to ask for a job reference. And we ended up talking for an hour about our lives, our SOs, life goals etc. Before I could ask, she ended up suggesting that hang out and bring our SOs.
The only male friends I have right now are the male SOs of female friends or my wife’s girl friends.
Some of the most fulfilling friend groups we’ve had since were groups with LGBT and NB folks. And I think that’s because, even though gender performance is absolutely an important thing in these groups, there’s less pressure for us, a cis couple, to “perform” in a certain way. Our conversations are more real and liberated. It’s less anxious and competitive. But at the same time, those friendships eventually end because I don’t they can really connect with us - like, we’re still outsiders and so there’s a bit of a block. I understand, but it sucks.
Because we try to connect with cis men, or even couples, in our area, we either get standoffishness or competitions. Like, we’re getting evaluated for our performance of gender / society / life expectations. My wife and I have careers, no kids, and we’re fine, but we’re also trying to explore who we are outside that. And new cis friendships at our age seems to be less about connecting and doing fun things and more about bragging about accomplishments or complaining about the lack of them over coffee.
And its so hard to find any cis men that are just fucking chill and maybe tired of all the anxiety and social pressure around masculinity and just willing to be a person rather than a “man”.
Friend. Compatriot. Denizen of the internet. Thank you for reaching out, for telling me your story. But yours is an example of one of the many attitudes in men that frustrate me to no end and keep us all lonely.
You are not lonely because of your problems. Instead, you’re allowing your problems to excuse your lonliness.
Listen to yourself, “folks like me are just destined to be forever alone”. No you’re not. If everyone who said that on the internet decided to get together, we’d have conventions that rival comic con. It’s not impossible, you can overcome it, and you deserve to have a social life.
I get it. It’s hard. I’ve been there. I am also an introvert that suffers from social anxiety disorder. It takes a monumental effort and a lot of mental gymnastics for me to put myself in social situations. But I force myself into uncomfortable situations because I know it is good for me.
So enough berating you. What do you do?
In regards to finding a partner, my best advice is to work on yourself first. Women typically don’t care that much about physical appearance but they also don’t want to dive into a depressive spiral. A codependent man is an unattractive man. Work on the things you don’t like about yourself. And once you are happier and a little more sure of yourself, love will come naturally.
My best advice is to get a therapist. I’m fucking serious. Because when you are working on yourself, no matter how mentally healthy you are, you will get yourself in ruts that block any progress. And a therapist has the tools to get you out of it. But also because you can tell them your goal (have a social life) and your blocks (introvert, etc.) and then they can help you craft a plan. They’re like a personal trainer for your brain.
“A therapist is expensive” - not necessarily. Talk to your primary care doctor. Tell them you’d like to talk to a therapist. They will give you a referral and your insurance will cover part of it, guaranteed. If it’s still too expensive, use a service like Betterhelp. They’re not perfect, but it’s better than nothing. Regardless, get a THERAPIST not a psychologist. A psychologist can prescribe drugs and you don’t need that until your therapist suggests it.
But most men won’t take that advice no matter what I say. So the only other advice I can offer is to do the work. Look for local events or get togethers in your area. Look for sub to Lemmy / Reddit groups dedicated to your town or area. Look for Discord groups local to your region. Look for book clubs or crafting groups. And look beyond your typical interests. You never know, you might find a new hobby and new friends.
Then, go to events / get togethers. Force yourself to talk to people. Be uncomfortable. Truly. It’ll suck at first but people will respond if you engage - remember that people are there because they want to meet people. Awkwardness is totally okay.
Regardless, every time you’re tempted to say “folks like me are destined to be forever alone” replace that with “I have decided to be forever alone.” Come on man, you can do it. I believe you can. You deserve a social life.
I’ve seen the world through many lenses, and the most profound moments have been with people who fully see and love me; that takes vulnerability and trust. Focus your time on learning how to be vulnerable, build intentional and meaningful friendships, and heal your relationship with what it means to be feminine.
That’s it right there. It’s about opening yourself and your vulnerabilities to others. Unfortunately, this is often perceived negatively by men. You really have to gauge who you can open up to as some will take advantage of your vulnerability and use it against you. That’s how you end up being bullied at school or at work.
I know because I tend to open up to people and tell them how I feel. I’ve built deep and meaningful relationships with many people, male, female and in-between. I’m not afraid to show my emotions and tell people how I truly feel. But, there have been a few times where I ended up being hurt. Not just by men, but women too. Or being mocked¸ which is extremely difficult because you question yourself a lot when this happens.
What’s especially unfortunate is that it’s not just men that perceive it negatively. I’m reminded of Brené Brown’s Ted Talk quote: youtu.be/psN1DORYYV0?t=16m37s
People think toxic masculinity is just a men’s thing. But it’s not. It’s a whole culture and it involves everybody, even women, who perpetuate the culture.
As others have said, it’s not just men that perceive that negatively; women do also. I can’t recall who said it, but feminism has meant that there are many different ways to be a woman now, but there is still only one socially acceptable way to be a man. The social consequences to men for being emotionally vulnerable can mean the loss of all social connections; I know that I lost about 3/4 of the people I thought were friends when I failed to successfully complete suicide. That creates a very strong disincentive to being vulnerable in the future.
That’s it there, as a younger man most of the relationships I’ve been in end around 1-3 months in when I start trusting them and open up more emotionally. They almost always start ignoring me, ghost me or tell me it’s not working out.
It makes you really just lose confidence in yourself as a person, when you’re reserved they want you they want your body, once you open up and you’re vulnerable even once everything changes all of the sudden.
I’m lucky to have a girlfriend who doesn’t think like that, the fact that she is part of LGBT community probably helps.
I’m sorry for what happened to you. :( I hope you’re doing way better now.
However, there isn’t just one way to be a man. I think that’s the narrow perception that the concept of masculinity creates.
You don’t have to be any special way or have to do anything special to “be a man”. Just be.
For centuries, men have been defined through wars and combat, were dominant, violent, and were the main bread winners of the house and were considered the smarter of the two sexes. And women were considered lesser beings, unintelligent and unable to make important decisions like voting, and weaker. They were expected to be servile and it was allowed to give them corporal punishment if they do much as talked back. Men were at the top and women were at the bottom. That’s why any man who wasn’t didn’t have the set of characteristics that made them masculine were often bullied and laughed at. Through feminism however, women had nowhere to go but up and thrive.
Suddenly, men weren’t the dominant, smartest bread winners and violence became frowned upon. What was traditionally masculine or the set of characteristics that defined men, also applied to women and some became negative attributes. The lines between femininity and masculinity became blurred.
Women evolved and redefined what it meant to be a woman. And it’s basically to just be yourself and do your best to be a good role model. And honestly that could apply to anybody. Not just women.
We need to stop trying to define “what it takes to be a man” and just be. Anyone who doesn’t accept that is doomed to stay in the past and not evolve with the rest of society and live in constant frustration.
I am glad this perspective is being presented. I think ftm people have a unique view of how difficult it can be to be a man that throws light on a lot of men's issues.
I hope this person can present more along these lines. I think I could come up with hundreds of questions.
I’m a trans guy who transitioned in the 2000s. I’d be happy to answer any questions you have on the unique perspective of men’s issues from someone who spent 20 ish years as a woman.
I did not find that people take me more seriously at work as a man. However, I work in tech and all companies I have worked are focused on ensuring that women have an equal place at the table. I imagine that other fields yield different results. – I did want to note that I had the opposite experience with healthcare. As a woman, doctors were less likely to take me seriously. As a man, they take anything I say to be the truth and trust me to make decisions.
Disadvantages of being male are:
People are more reluctant to help you with anything and everything, as if he’s a man, so he’s got it.
Harder to date and socialize. It’s downright isolating at times.
Strangers are less likely to trust you.
There are fewer social programs to help men in need. I was homeless for a spell and there were no shelters for men, for example.
It’s much harder to get a job in tech as a man, because companies try to meet a gender quota despite most applicants being men.
Strangers are more likely to be violent towards men.
Must be careful around women so they don’t think I am a danger. For example, if walking at night and a woman is coming from the opposite direction I feel obligated to cross the street so they don’t think I’m going to attack or harass them.
FWIW, I hire in Tech, and our percentage of female applicants is incredibly low, usually under 1%. I do pay extra attention to their resumes, but often they aren’t even close to qualified for the position.
It’s much harder to get a job in tech as a man, because companies try to meet a gender quota despite most applicants being men.
I’ve worked at woke companies who fought tooth and nail to say that they didn’t give women special preference in interviews. You can’t deny statistics, though. If you have 40% women engineers but only 10% of applicants are women then of course it’s easier.
I’m crossing my fingers that you’ll get a reply, and not as a PM. I’m bursting with curiosity but such things are so very difficult to even have opportunity to be enlightened.
For me, testosterone primarily feels like the ability to focus and critically think - like my head was foggy before and is now clear. Everything seems to be logical, and my ability to troubleshoot complex issues is dramatically stronger when my T levels are good. Without T, everything feels extremely emotional and even minor things feel like they’re high-stakes. That’s not to say that I don’t feel emotion with T, rather the emotions are more appropriate for the situation. I do find that I care less about people in general when on T - For example, when I see a stranger with a problem I don’t feel like I have an obligation to help them whereas before I had an intristic need to help everyone around me.
I had many biological changes, such as a change in body fat and muscle, significant facial/body hair, hair thinning - which is a miserable conversion in and of itself, period loss, and changes in my genitals that I would prefer not to discuss. All of these were euphoric to me, meaning they made me feel good and more like myself.
I think that the best way for a man to understand a woman and vice-versa is to roleplay online as the opposite gender. For example, you may have noticed that people are more willing to help and harass you as a female character. Male characters mostly get ignored.
I thought on this one for a while and couldn’t come up with a strong response that doesn’t just parrot the talking points of this community.
I felt indifferent and uninterested in strip clubs before transitioning. I still feel the same way. They just seem like a bad time to me.
Before transitioning I didn’t understand gender dynamics at all. I thought it was a level playing field and had no grasp on the many courtesies and dangers that women face that men do not, and vice-versa. It’s often frustrating to see people rag on men’s or women’s behavior/privilege/issues, because people rarely hit the mark on reality.
I did also want to mention that one thing blew my mind - The way that the dynamics of a room change when it’s all men, versus when there’s a single woman in the room. With all men, it seems like guys relax and suddenly don’t feel the need to walk on eggshells. Social courtesies become significantly less important and men tend to communicate more directly. Next time you’re in a room of all men and a woman walks in, keep an eye out for the subtle differences in how men behave.
To be clear, clarity of mind is my own personal experience and it’s unclear if T affected me that way because that’s what it’s like for everyone or if it can be attributed to dysphoria. In other words, it’s possible that I didn’t feel right in my body so I couldn’t focus on the things around me.
Bear in mind that Estrogen levels drop during menopause so you’ll find out one day. :)
On your last point. Guys only get to be guys when around other guys, exclusively.
Lots of women act like men aren’t right or they aren’t good enough when they actual normal and do normal guy shit.
Guys wants to call each other a cunt and rip into each other and tell funny stories, it’s how they bond and trust each other. Girls don’t like that and think guys should stop it. Either the guys act normal to them and it goes to HR or they act normal to each other and the girl is pissed off she is treated differently and goes to HR. The only thing to do is to act completely professionally.
Boys are just built different and I don’t think it’s fair that women always tell us and actual children how they should and shouldn’t act in a way that is against their nature.
Guys are in dire need of male only spaces where they can shoot the shit. I only really had it in sports clubs or as a child, or luckily in some work environments. But work isn’t the same as outside so that’s sucks. Wish my knee wasn’t fucked.
If you yearn for a male only space, check out the Freemasons. There’s something there for everyone, and it’s a great way to make friends later in life.
Maybe, we as men, not so much society start pushing that, instead of waiting for others to do it for us.
We need to counter Lad Culture with telling them that talking about their feelings isn’t a pussy action. That we don’t have to wait for a wife to use as a therapist and surrogate mother.
When you see men pushing the toxic policies of “suck it up” on other guys with no cares to the background information, we need to call out the toxicity.
Things won’t get better so long as we enable the worst
Friends and family are the best, or at least the first therapist you should see. An actual therapist is required when the other two failed. That’s how a sane family or group of friends should work at least.
Another thing that we as men don’t want to admit (generalized statement,) are that traumas we suffer can often come from a familial source, and that distrust can poison our attempts to reach out to others.
Worse, those traumas can give improper perceptions about how a family works, and give frustrations due to finding out that your previously assumed normal life was in reality quite damaging for viewpoints when confronting how all the easy lessons we were taught were dead, decayed, and buried by 1970, if not earlier, and we’re working on tertiary information from unreliable sources that are grasping to the past to maintain control in their own lives.
I get what you’re saying (I hope ;-) ) and agree that women are allowed to do things that men aren’t.
[TW: Suicide, violence] I also think there are important differences between male privileges and female “privileges”. Male “disadvantages”* are generally still in the control of males. Military service is (or at least was) something that men (as a class) did to themselves, because they were the rulers. Prohibiting women from working or having a bank account was not something women had control over. Men commit suicide more often than women, but a suicide is still something that is ultimately in your hands - being murdered by your (ex-)partner or some stranger in a park isn’t. Of course it isn’t really that clear cut: how much control do you have when you are suffering from depression? And how much are you to blame for not seeking help when you’ve been trained you’re whole life to be “independent” and not show (or even feel) emotions?
But while it’s definitely not clear cut, I still think there are enough systematic differences to make distinction useful. Especially as the male privileges are much more in tune with what our society values: people get praised for getting shit done (be it fixing cars or shooting them into space), nation wide stories about being a good listener or friend are much rarer. You can amass insane amounts of money, and people will actually admire you instead of calling you greedy, while at least in Germany people start to have prejudices if you have more than two or three kids.
(*english is not my native language so I’m not as nuanced as I’d like to be)
He feels safe because he thought that men feel safe.
I’m a man and I’ve NEVER felt safe at night. It’s a myth perpetuated by (feminist) women who don’t understand men’s experiences but just assume they do anyway.
And I’m not afraid just because men are twice as likely to be attacked or murdered by a stranger. I was beaten at home and I was beaten at school. These leave an indelible impression upon your soul.
Just because I’m a man doesn’t mean I feel safe and assuming it does hurts men.
But I guess this is no surprise that’s just a bundle of stereotypical attitudes towards men.
For example,
If I could advise men, it would be first to look inward.
Ah, men should “solve their own problems”, only exactly what we’ve been told for thousands of years. Interesting, this, since it’s also all men’s responsibility to help women’s struggle against the “patriarchy”.
This attitude is also expressed in his use of the word “broken”. Men aren’t victims (they as a whole can never be allowed to be victims) but they are broken - malfunctioning humans - and it’s up to each of them to solve the problem foisted upon by society at large.
Finally, it’s interesting that he never realizes that much of what he’s lost is female privilege (the hugs, the concern, the interest, the positive attention) but insists upon talking a supposed male privilege anyways.
Men aren’t “broken” just because we interact differently than women. It may be news to that trans man, but we don’t have the same emotional needs as women. We interact in ways that work for us. It is fashionable today to refer to all masculinity as toxic, but we are not the same as women, hard stop. Stop trying to pretend that we are.
I believe that’s why the suicide rate in men is so much higher. I recently saw that men are four times more likely to commit suicide than women.
That’s accurate, but doesn’t convey they entire picture accurately.
Women attempt suicide at a significantly higher rate than men. The ways women tend to attempt suicide are the ways that are least likely to leave a significant mess; overdosing, hanging, drowning, cutting wrists in a bathtub, etc. Men that attempt suicide are more likely to use methods with a high probability of success, like jumping or firearms. At one time, women’s incomplete attempts were deemed to be a “cry for help” rather sincere suicide attempts, but this is not correct.
So all those men who die from suicide matter less?
At what point do you realize that you’re talking about other human being’s lives and stop using them as a scorecard?
And who decided they weren’t “cries for help”? I only ask because of the recent attempts by feminists to cover up the fact that the majority of the homeless are men by (1) giving homeless stats by every dmeographic except “men” and (2) fabricating the category of the “hidden homeless” (i.e., women who live in homes that aren’t theirs…but still live in homes).
oh come on 4:1 consistently on an almost global scale is way too far to say that all of these women’s attempts are sincere, 4:1 is batshit. it’s the same as when someone says ‘ive attempted ten times’, cause no they didnt, if they did genuinely theyd certainly be dead. theyre not ‘cries for help’, theyre more like them getting internal validation for their feelings. garbaj on youtube made a great video about the romantising of alcholism but it applies here too. i know what i said is a tough pill to swallow but thats the cold truth. im not saying women en masse arent depressed or that theyre doing it for attention, i am saying far less of them are sincerely suicidal and want internal validation of their depression. same shit with sh, it becomes a contest of who can hurt themselves the most as you dont feel your pain is legitmate. people also do this wjth the whole ‘i only got 4 hours sleep’ ‘i only got 2 shut up’ ‘my life is harder, you had it easy’ ‘i drink 4 beers a day’ ‘yeah wrll i drink a bottle of vodka’. people may or may not say this stuff out loud but people definitely fucking feel it deep down and start hurting themselves to feel like their emotions are justified. people need to get that someone having it ‘worse’ or ‘better’ means jackshit to your feelings, the whole ‘be grateful’ for what you have cause ‘a kid in africa…’ narrative is such a fucking dogshit way of thinking and leads to this shit by undermining and delegitmising feelings. if youre unhappy, you dont need to prove it. just cause someone needs alcohol to cope doesnt mean their circumstances are worse / feelings are more valid (those two things do not directly impact one another, dont think i mean that). even if their feelings were ‘more valid’ somehow, why the fuck does that matter to yours. this isnt some sucide competition, your depression is independent of theirs, they have no relationship.
There’s a fascinating history for why there may have been significant differences in reported numbers but they seem to have far more to do with the state of the medical establishment and their willingness to marginalize certain people than anything else.
As a minor example supporting a lot of what’s in that article, my wife went out to hang with a friend of hers, and I hung out with a buddy for a couple of hours. When she came home she asked me how he is, and I said, “I don’t know, I didn’t ask”. She seemed shocked and can’t understand why I say we don’t have those kinds of conversations.
It’s very interesting to have the view of a women that has transitioned to a men on the feeling side of things. I wonder how the transition is actually affecting his current relationship.
My experience as a man does look like what he talks about however, it’s not as crazy as he is saying. His depiction of manhood feels almost satire to me. Almost all of my interaction with men, I feel safe enough to talk about my problems, my feelings and my opinions on things, both personal or not.
Although, I am me and I do not represent all other men, It’s not untrue that men are lead to believe that they must be the one to shut up and provide for their community/family. Shut up and die for your family, you country. Shut up and do what you have to do. If you really do that, I think you just end up lonely, sad and probably really suicidal.
it’s not as crazy as he is saying. His depiction of manhood feels almost satire to me. Almost all of my interaction with men, I feel safe enough to talk about my problems, my feelings and my opinions on things, both personal or not.
It’s spot on for me. 9/10 times I open up to other men, it’s either diminished, insulted, or ignored. I count 4 friends who’ve actually listened to me. 1 ghosted me some time later. 1 listened rarely, only after I listened to him for hours. The other 2 are true chads and I wish life hadn’t separated us.
When I open up to women, it’s either insulted or saved and later used against me as manipulation.
I just don’t anymore. Only people I talk to are therapists.
Men started treating me like their guy friends, which was exactly what I wanted. What I didn’t know is that male friendships aren’t as deep.
That is also my experience - never could emotionally open or connect to my male friends. While (from time where I learned it) not having the same problem with women in relationships or friendship. I feel always a bit on guard with other men, always a bit performing. But at the same time I never made an negative experience with opening up being emotionally vulnerable.
The theoretical steps are rather clear, it’s just a different “vibe” I have with men and women (therefore I guess most of my friends are women) - sure in the end I just need start doing it, but as with all emotional things it’s easier said then done.
never could emotionally open or connect to my male friends
My bros and I are very emotionally open with each other. We’ve had sit-downs where we listen to each other and help each other through problems, hug each other when we cry.
Sure, I’m not going to do that with someone I just met 5 minutes ago, but once we know each other a bit we are very supportive and open.
Men started treating me like their guy friends, which was exactly what I wanted. What I didn’t know is that male friendships aren’t as deep.
He’s a fool if he thinks he’s going to form deep connections with other men in a short time period, especially as an outsider. Men make 4 friends in junior highschool and decide that’s enough for the rest of our lives. Men are also very tribal. He’s going to have to wait for years, or even decades to find the deep and meaningful relationships he’s looking for. That’s just how men operate.
This story reminds me of an ex girlfriend that wanted me to open up. So I did. She left me after that. The end result was good though, as it made me realize I needed some professional mental assistance.
That’s my experience, too. Most of the times I’ve opened up to a girlfriend, it’s turned them off. They thought they wanted me to, but they regretted it, which made me regret it. Either that or they later used it to manipulate me. So I just stopped.
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