Ubuntu's Mozillateam PPA now forcing users over to snap install for Firefox.

What use to be the PPA that allowed Ubuntu users to use native .deb packages for Firefox has recently changed to the same meta package that forces installation of Snap and the Firefox snap package.

I am having to remove the meta package, then re-uninstall the snap firefox, then re-uninstall Snap, then install pin the latest build I could get (firefox_116.0.3+build2-0ubuntu0.22.04.1~mt1_arm64.deb) to keep the native firefox build.

I’m so done with Ubuntu.

Rogueren,

You may need to move away from Ubuntu to an Ubuntu-based distro. Pop!_OS still packages firefox as a deb

LeFantome,

Have you had any dealings with the FSF? “Forcing users” is standard operating procedure.

All distros make choices for their users. In fact, what applications are available in what repositories via what methods is practically the defining feature of a distribution. That in itself is not what bugs me about Ubuntu. It is the choices they make that bug me. That is why I do not use Ubuntu.

smileyhead,

What’s with FSF? If it’s free software and SaaSS, there is no “forcing” by their words.

flashinthepan,

Firefox snap on Ubuntu is still slow to start after all this time. The binary from Mozilla starts nearly instantly.

just_another_person,

Nothing stopping anyone from installing by any other means though. This is just Canonical forcing their official channels to make sure they are pushing security fixes as fast as possible to desktop users.

Adorable_Yordle,

Wouldn’t it be faster to just use binaries directly from Mozilla?

just_another_person,

Not necessarily. If you’re just a single user on a machine, and you don’t have any profiles to locate and move to match Mozilla’s binaries, it would be just as fast. Client-side updates would be a pain to manage though.

AlexisFR,
@AlexisFR@jlai.lu avatar

Hear me out, why not just use snap?

space_comrade,

I’ve used it a few years ago, it might have gotten better but when I was trying to use it it was annoying as fuck, cross-application links that you would expect to open the browser or whatever other app just didn’t seem to work right and that was kind of a big deal for me since I use Slack a lot.

Also I’d imagine your disk usage would go through the roof with it.

I just don’t see the point in it tbh, what was wrong with Linux package management as it is?

radioactiveradio,

Cuz the damn PWA and keepass extensions don’t work.

Quereller,

Sorry, but the keepassxc extension works flawlessly.

PseudoSpock,
@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

First, it’s a version behind, prompting Firefox to ask me to erase my existing profile. That’s not going to do. Second, it’s not able to have Widevine added to it, which is needed for video / screen sharing in Teams web client.

zagaberoo,

Because it forces me to have a snap directory in my home dir which I otherwise keep very tidy. At least let me put it in .snap or something like any decent piece of software. The snap developers don’t respect users at all.

CaptainJack42,

There’s a simple reason why Mozilla/canonical does this and that is security fixes. Due to the difference in support cycles of Firefox and Ubuntu LTS versions fixes would have to be manually backported to the system Firefox version and newer versions won’t run due to library dependencies. Snap solves all of that.

Don’t get me wrong though, snap is still terrible, but other than flatpak or doing the work of backporting it’s the only option to get security fixes to Ubuntu

thalience,

Previous to the switch to snaps, Ubuntu was providing the latest version of Firefox built for each supported Ubuntu release. I’m sure this was more work, but the older system library version issue was not a blocker.

Edit: in fact, Mozilla still provides an apt repo with Firefox deb packages built for each supported Ubuntu release.

CaptainJack42,

But around the same time mozilla shortened the support cycles for their lts releases

silent_water,

literally every other distribution can solve this problem but Ubuntu can’t?

OptimusPrimeDownfall,
@OptimusPrimeDownfall@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

Not really. After working with CentOS (RIP) for a half decade, that Firefox version was so out of date I was practically in diapers when it came out. Getting the latest version of Firefox was such a pain that my org didn’t bother even if it would have given us some niceties.

LTS and other “enterprise” distros don’t push the latest version precisely because of dependencies.

cmeerw,

But are they actually doing this? I am not seeing any changes: launchpad.net/~mozillateam/+archive/ubuntu/ppa still has the .deb packages

cmeerw,

and newer versions won’t run due to library dependencies.

Mozilla seem to be able to limit library dependencies in their builds: www.mozilla.org/en-US/…/system-requirements/

Zatujit,

If you don’t embrace snaps just don’t use Ubuntu.

PseudoSpock,
@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Hence me now moving off of it.

h_a_r_u_k_i,

I’m curious, what are you considering moving into?

PseudoSpock,
@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

EndeavourOS. It’s available for Arm64. Has firefox, has chromium, has vivaldi, and even has a widevine plugin builder in their AUR repo for the first two.

For UTM hypervisor, select the Arch for ARM from their gallery and install it. Then follow the instructions for Parallels to EndeavourOS it. Oh, expand the disk and filesystem first, though.

It’s quite a step back in time for an installation process, though. Even after getting it installed and setup for KDE Plasma, still need to install a lot of things:

  • NetworkManager
  • git base-devel
  • man-pages man-db
  • dnsutils
  • LibreOffice Plus all the things one installs for customization on any Linux… preferred shell(s), if not bash, shell customizations and completions, various cli’s you’ll want or need, your favorite IDE, browsers, browser extensions, programming languages, ansible, terraform, helm, kubectl, podman and or docker, etc etc.
nephs,

What’s up with the hate on snaps, again, please anyone?

csolisr,
  • There is only a single Snap server, and it is a proprietary one exclusive to Canonical
  • Upgrades are pushed in a mandatory fashion, which means things will break if a bad upgrade ever gets pushed
  • Snaps have about the same integration issues that Flatpaks have due to their sandboxing, but overcoming them is even harder due to lack of tools on the Snap side of things
  • Snaps are mostly Ubuntu-centric, and don’t quite work on other distros
just_another_person,

Mostly agree, except the last two points. Snaps are available anywhere…if you so wish (I wouldn’t).

The biggest issue with snaps is that they are SLOOOOOOOW when compared to a standard binary install, or even Flatpak. Most of this has to do with fuse, but when you have many versions of a specific package, it just gets slower and slower.

The local versioning system also takes up a ton of local space by not expiring caches regularly, so it’s not fit for lightweight installs.

csolisr,

Thanks for the clarification! I’ve never used Snaps myself (as I’d rather use Arch than Ubuntu), so I was unaware on how slow do Snaps run on an average computer. Again, sandboxing can be an overhead too large for an old machine.

x3i,

Main reasons I see being raised a lot are Canonical’s absolute control over the snap ecosystem and the dependency problem inside the snaps, meaning they often ship outdated versions of dependencies which might have known bugs or flaws.

The fact that it is forced on users is mentioned by other people here already. Afaik this is not a thing yet on Ubuntu server, so maybe install that one + the GUI packages? Not an Ubuntu user myself, so this could be oversimplified.

lily33,

While I’m sure some people hate snap in general, most people simply hate being forced to use it. Or rather, bring forced to switch distro and reinstall everything.

nestEggParrot,

Many have issues with stability. Especially with firefox which comes installed via snap on ubuntu. Similarly compared to deb snaps versions occasionally have weird bugs. I personaaly had an issue with opening files properly using snap but worked fine on deb.

Also its unnecessarily forced. Deb works great and apt is widely used as primary package manager. No need to maintain the system with another one in the mix.

Its also repoted not to work well on otknr platforms like fedora or arch. Other package formats like AppImage, flatpak might be better in that regard though I havent used them.

merthyr1831,

Beyond the complaints about Canonical’s hostility to Flatpak and other formats, but the real risk snap poses is that Canonical has a lot of control over the snap store, and lack of integration with distros beyond Ubuntu.

There’s a vague promise of “new stores” and better integration with other distros but Flatpak is a truly open technology that gives you the option to install apps from ANY source and other distros are collaborating to improve it.

ennemi,

Digital sanity. I do not want any of my tools to constantly beg to be updated.

library_napper,
@library_napper@monyet.cc avatar

For one, packages aren’t cryptographically verified after downloading them, as is done with apt.

This is a massive security vulnerability.

cmeerw,

Verifying a snap package’s authenticity seems to suggest otherwise. What’s the source for your claim?

library_napper,
@library_napper@monyet.cc avatar

Your link is just guesses on a forum.

Link me to the official documentation that describes how signatures work.

cmeerw,

You mean like manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/jammy/…/snap.8.html

Still better than a random user claiming

This is a massive security vulnerability

with no justification whatsoever.

library_napper,
@library_napper@monyet.cc avatar

That’s usage documentation. It doesn’t describe how snap verifies packages.

The burden of proof lies with the program’s docs to prove their security. In the absence of such documentation, we should all ageree to distrust it as insecure.

Apt clearly documents how the manifest file is cryptographically signed with PGP (and if that Sig or the signed hashes dont for any package it refuses to continue).

mustkana,

They are mostly Mozilla members, not Ubuntu members, who are responsible for the PPA. Are you sure, that your complaints and grievances are directed to the right address? See here: wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Contacts

ahal,

Hello, member of Mozilla release engineering here. We have no association with that PPA and the contacts are not mozilla.com email addresses.

Infiltrated_ad8271, (edited )
Infiltrated_ad8271 avatar

I'm a bit confused to see that the hate falls entirely on ubuntu. Isn't the change in the ppa of mozillateam, owned by mozilla?

Edit: It seems that mozillateam is actually ubuntu.

cmeerw,

Was there even a change to the Firefox PPA? I am not seeing a change.

Seltsamsel,

LibreWolf is a Firefox fork with features removed which we don’t want (Telemetry, Pocket, …) and a few (privacy) features enabled (which can be deactivated if they’re too annoying). I didn’t had any issues with Firefox extensions as well.

I’m currently using it on Debian and it runs smoothly. Recent Ubuntu versions are also supported and you can install them via your package manager, see here.

hornedfiend,

I’ve recently distro hopped and the new distro came with Firefox preinstalled (had arch before but with xfs and wanted btrf snapshots).

Do you think its telemetry is so bad? I want to help Mozilla to some extent to keep them working on Firefox as I think Librewolf isn’t showing much usage or support for Firefox itself.

nestEggParrot,

You shouldbea able to turn off from settings. More options are present in the config. You can find github guides doing more hardening for sedurity and privacy.

Not sure about librewolf specifically but most of these firefox forks do these initial setups for you and maybeave a couple of addons preinstalled. You would still be using firefox. Beyond crash reports and some reduced usage metrics turning them off should hinder firefox much.

otl,

@hornedfiend @Seltsamsel That's a good question and got me curious. I had a look at Telemetry collection and deletion from Mozilla. You can enter about:telemetry in the address bar to see what Firefox is collecting (even if it is not being sent).

milkjug,

Ubuntu was my first-ever training-wheels gateway to Linux. I started from 8.04 Hardy Heron, and it felt like such a counter-culture move back then and I wanted to be part of the ‘cool’ edgy goth kids that DGAF about the mainstream normies.

15 years later, I still daily-drive windows, but I have many linux boxes for various specialist use-cases, mainly for scripting or self-hosting services, and still have 22.04 server versions running here and there. But this will be my last version of Ubuntu, and the only reason its still there is because migrating them is going to be no fun.

The Ubuntu today feels like a completely different animal than when I started. My breaking point was the ‘upgrade to pro’ message on every apt run. I DON’T WANT TO SIGN UP FOR YET ANOTHER METERED ACCOUNT. I use Linux to escape all the mainstream commercialism and monetization once in a while when I’m up for it. Next thing I know, it starts popping up in Linux OS’s and even terminals asking me to login with an account so that I can be monetized.

Don’t get me wrong, I know people need to eat and companies need revenue streams to pay their staff. Linux was my occasional escape back to my engineering and tinkering roots, but corporatism is creeping in like what happens to all good things (eventually).

PseudoSpock,
@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Windows as daily driver?!? :(

milkjug,

Yes indeed, it just works when I need it to. Just 10 minutes ago I regretted installing Arch as I had some trouble trying to get my WH1000XM4 to connect. I was able to figure it out eventually as I was missing a bunch of missing packages for bluetooth and bluetooth audio that for some reason archinstall decided wasn’t part of the core packages. There was zero prompts from KDE as to why the pairing was failing and I had to figure out with some trial and error which ones were missing and which ones I needed. And after doing all that I still couldn’t get LDAC to work.

Seriously reflecting on my life choices right now, should have stuck to a distro with some sensible defaults when I just need shit to work. Of all the problems people have with M$, windows always just worked for me. Perhaps Linux and I just aren’t fated to be together. I always come back a couple of times a year to try out the state of Linux and while it has gotten a whole lot better, its always these little gotchas that result in me telling myself “maybe next year will be the year of linux”, which has been happening for the past ~15 years for me now.

theshatterstone54,

I hope one day those gotchas disappear for you. You said yourself you want to get away from corporatism. Let’s hope that one day, Linux can provide that for you.

selokichtli,

I use Linux in all my machines, currently: LMDE, Debian, Arch, openSUSE Tumbleweed, Fedora and Linux Mint. Yeah, I just realized I stopped using Ubuntu a couple of years ago.

Frellwit,

I use the binary provided by Mozilla at www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/

I even wrote an installation script that takes care of it all. (For amd64, not arm64. I’m not sure if they provide a stand-alone arm build.)

Bitrot,
@Bitrot@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

TIL about desktop-file-edit.

I’ve been doing desktop files by hand for years.

My favorite thing about the Mozilla binary is that it auto updates just like Windows, as long as you have write permissions.

nestEggParrot,

I tend to do the same. Can you link it ?

Bitrot,
@Bitrot@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

Their script has a really good example of using the “proper” tools to create, validate, and install the desktop file automagically. The tools themselves are likely already installed.

iopq,

I warned you guys. “It’s so easy, just do these three steps if you don’t like snaps” but then later they tighten the vise

wim,

Yeah. I switched away from Ubuntu for all this crap.

I moved to Fedora for my laptop & desktop, and Debian for my home server. I’m considering switching everything to Debian eventually, but there’s a couple dedicated repos that make using Fedora on my laptop much easier for now.

tool,
@tool@lemmy.world avatar

I’m considering switching everything to Debian eventually, but there’s a couple dedicated repos that make using Fedora on my laptop much easier for now.

I’d recommend against that. Debian is fantastic for a server, but I think it leaves a lot to be desired as a workstation OS as compared to Fedora.

You can get it there/make it that way, but Fedora is just better from a user experience/convenience perspective out of the box.

wim,

I don’t know. I like Debian. My home server also doubles as a desktop sometimes and it does a good job.

I’m mostly not super interested in cutting edge versions. I run a newer kernel and mesa than default Debian, but the rest is just fine. I’m fine with Firefox ESR, and lagging a little bit behind the state of the art.

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