The well-being of the world should be everyone's problem. It's just that with the largest economy and comparative power in the world, the US has a greater responsibility than most. Queue the Spiderman quote.
Idk their economy definitely has benefitted from stuff like international shipping (which their “world police” have been essential in protecting) it’s just that they allow their oligarchs to seize most of the profits. Their government definitely didn’t take up the role out of the good of their hearts!
"The West" is essentially the group of nations attempting to abide by a moral code. It is not always, or maybe even often, successful, but there is a vast gulf between their morality-based approach and what China, Russia, DPRK, and other fascist/semi-fascist nations are doing.
Nah the west pulls plenty of shady, awful crap but that’s just a reason for the west (and everybody else) to try to be better - it shouldn’t be used as an excuse for other countries doing evil shit.
Huh, when did you make such a commitment? Sometime in between of toppling democratic governments, installing dictators around the world and invading sovereign nations?
Well the moral argument is obviously false on its face.
But the microchips argument is also bizarre. Taiwan isn’t the only country that makes microchips. In fact the US has been spending large amounts of money to stand up domestic chip manufacturing. And China is also the leading global supplier of plenty of other commodities. Why is it that only matters for microchips?
So first, the US having military bases surrounding China is tied into why they disagree with their neighbors. They allowed the US on the boarder so it makes sense they aren’t stoked about it. The US has at least 750 military bases around the world in 80 countries. The next closest country has 145 bases and thats the UK. If we want to reference imperialism, then starting with the US is the most practical based on this alone.
In addition, only 12 countries consider Taiwan as an independent country. Regardless if this is correct, the actions the US has recently taken with Taiwan is without question increasing tension in an already tense situation.
Furthermore, following the numbers on the Uyghur women being forced to have contraception implants would mean each woman has 8 impants. This makes absolute zero sense. The fact the US media’s primary source on the Uyghur situation is an outright lunatic does help make it all add up though.
All in all, it takes two to tango for sure. Yet the US seeing it’s global power drastically decline makes their moves less obfuscated and vividly more desperate.
If you’re concerned about human rights, why gloss over the US being notorious for human rights abuse? They have the largest prison population ever, comprised primarily of minorities who were obscenely experimented on during MK Ultra. Plus the prior and current treatment of Native Americans or the 6,000,000+ innocent citizens killed in the war on terror. The US is no longer even classified as a first world country. But it doesn’t matter cause the news said the US is definitely the best choice for the world police.
Are you for bombing Mexico to stop the opioid crisis too? While the idea is gaining traction stateside, it takes minutes to understand of the 14,000+ pounds of fentanyl seized at the Mexican boarder in 2022, over 90% was from US citizens. But logic is totally overrated when it comes to international law I guess.
The Americans doing bad shit doesn’t make it alright for China and Russia to do the same bad shit. Is it alright to keep slaves just because the yanks used to do it too? Is torturing and executing prisoners acceptable behaviour to you?
It’s not imperialism when the bases are invited and accepted. These bases open up because the host nations are worried about China and the US is the only country that has the scale to oppose a murderous regime from dominating the region.
It’s not that the US hasn’t also done bad things - it’s that they’re seen as a safer bet, despite those bad things, for those countries maintaining their independence.
Please give me an example of where the US was invited in by the people of a country. That certainly didn’t happen in Japan, Korea, or the Philippines unless you’re a fan of right wing dictators.
What are you even talking about? The original commenter began trolling by on purpose stating some basic fact even these people whose will you support would say is not true. There is no constitution or state that calls itself Taiwan.
Yes I know what you mean, but see, there is ROC whose contitution currenlty says Taiwan is only a region, and the PRC, who says the same. This is what I adressed before. And besides, by the poll you mention, that even undermines it, as when the rest supports things stay the same, means the majority supports Taiwan is a part of ROC.
ROC is a loser of the Chinese civil war, a separatist state, currently full with American funded politicians that paratize on the Chinese territory. And there is no state or constitution that calls itself Taiwan. Therefore the original commenters statement is plain wrong. I don’t even know why somebody can make a false statement, and when called out, everybody in response come with complex analytics besides the point. I don’t even understand what you mean.
Do taxpayers of one nation see their taxes spent in the other? No? That's because Taiwan is not China, and China does not own Taiwan.
No laws passed in China have effect in Taiwan, China has zero say in how the country is run, but everyone has to pretend that Taiwan is part of China or else Pooh Bear will throw a bitchy fit and invade.
The Chinese State is heavily invested in Taiwan, it’s clearly not just an independent country.
China will only invade if the West keeps arming them, because China won’t tolerate an arms buildup in Taiwan. That’s a perfectly reasonable stance. Imagine China started shipping billions of dollars of weapons to Puerto Rico lol
Pooh Bear
Ah yes, calling a Chinese man a yellow animal. Definitely not racist.
Calling Pooh Bear the name that he earned from dissidents in his own country is not racist. The fact that he sends people to prison for it is insane. And the fact that you, as a tankie will deny reality is also insane.
Pooh Bear is a single man. It's not racism when your insult only applies to a single dictator. Tankies love to scream racism at calling Xi Pooh Bear, but are really just mad that we all make fun of their favorite dictator.
As to Chinese investment in Taiwan. Since you can't read the article, just know that Taiwan bans investment from any company connected to the Chinese government, and has tightened those rules to include international subsidiaries.
Other sources I've seen have put the grand total of allowed investments in Taiwan from China at less than $6 billion US. In other words, a rounding error to their GDP.
The USA is heavily invested in China - does that make China a province of the USA? Does IMF investment in Africa/Asia mean that the West is morally justified in invading them whenever they decide to buy weapons off Russia?
It tells me that most people prefer an eternal cold war to escalating to a hot war. If China backed off and made it clear they would not attack, those numbers would change.
China can’t actually do that without Taiwan making a reciprocal agreement to stop engaging in military buildup against China. Peace requires an agreement on both sides. Otherwise, Taiwan could just build up endlessly and then attack China because it left itself vulnerable.
Let us imagine China started giving Puerto Rico billions of dollars in military hardware. What do you think America’s response would be?
China threatens to invade daily, so Taiwan should stop preparing to be invaded? No. Fuck off. China needs to knock it off and stop threatening to invade. Full stop.
Taiwan isn’t a potential rape victim, it’s a guy constantly telling everyone he’ll kill any motherfucker that sets foot on his land and is constantly building up his stockpile of weapons and ammo.
Guys like that often end up becoming mass shooters.
To my mind, it sure seems like Taiwan is like a home owner with small kids who is constantly telling people that their neighbor with unchained pittbulls is dangerous, and then gets criticized for putting up a fence to keep the unchained pittbulls out of their yard.
China is like a rabid dog here, and you're saying Taiwan shouldn't be allowed to defend themselves? Do fuck off.
How weak do you have to be that sailing boats 100 mi from your shores is an act of war, and by the way, if it is an act of war there’s a concerning lack of response to it
No see it’s NOT a threat when the US surrounds China with literally dozens of military installations placed as close to their border as possible and actively practices military drills on their borders with their puppet states because the US is “good” and China is “bad” and our understanding of geopolitics shouldn’t go any further than that because China scary bad
If China wants to set up navy bases in mexico or whatever they’re more than welcome, but they should recognize that their own harassment of shipping hundreds of miles from its shores is why those bases are there in the first place
You know full well that if China were to attempt to establish a military base in Tijuana then the US would invade Mexico within the month. Don’t be dense. The last time a geopolitical rival set up a base near the US we invaded, nearly started a nuclear war, and blockade them for 80 years.
The US is the walking embodiment of “rules for thee, but not for me” in international politics
I would suggest you start by admitting you know that the entirety of the South China Sea is not Chinese territory, as the Gulf of Mexico and bearing sea is not the US'
a geopolitical rival set up a base near the US
That's a funny way of saying "covertly placed nuclear missiles in range to attempt a decapitating first strike" which is especially weird because you said we're done being dense, I guess you'd be the expert in "rules for thee but not for me"
We have nukes in Turkey, The Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, and Italy. All of which are within easy first strike distance of Russia. Especially Turkey. And that’s just the ones we know of. I have no doubt there are others we haven’t told the public about.
Yet when Russia tried to get nukes in Cuba for the same reason, you’re claiming it was definitely for a first strike. The Russians said that the nukes in Cuba were not for a first strike, just like NATO does with the nukes in Turkey. Why do you believe NATO and not Russia? Only one side of the cold war had EVER used a nuclear first strike, and it wasn’t the Russians…
“covertly placed nuclear missiles in range to attempt a decapitating first strike”
Ah the nice retcon of history. Cuba missiles were only placed as only covert first strike weapons, while being invaded, having wide spread US state sponsored terrorism, and direct evidence that the US would further esclate soon. Not for a retaliatory strike against expected extreme American aggression- but for covert first strike.
I think youre better off referring to actual “covertly placed nuclear missiles in range to attempt a decapitating first strike” in deployed in Turkey.
Hell of it is, with how set in their ways a lot of the US’ high level politicians are there might be some plain force of habit in there. Most of 'em seem to still think it’s 1975.
Clearly everyone should just let China do whatever they want to avoid war, if we appease them by expanding their territorial claims and avoiding conflict then surely everything will be fine. The politics of appeasement has historically been very successful.
Edit: Stop replying please, I don’t want to waste any more time arguing with y’all.
This is a US passport. Born in Iran, moved there as a child is my bet. Probably from a wealthy family, usually Iranians don’t get to move to the US unless they’re wealthy. Unless you won a green card lottery or something.
What's funny about this is Americans love to claim they are "X nationality" while they are like 5 generations down living in America and have never left their home town. Not saying OP is, they could very well have moved here very young, but as an American it reads just like that and those folks always make me facepalm in secondhand embarrassment lol.
Yep, it is like that, and for all we know, it’s grandpa’s passport. Again, I can’t be sure on that, but I am sure that they identify as American, except for this one moment where it was convenient for them to identify as Iranian.
These people are fucking insane and can't comprehend the vast majority of people can very clearly see they are living in a fictional reality. It's seriously like Sidney Powell levels of delusion.
The only territorial claims China has tried to enforce recently are to literally uninhabited lands (Aksai Chin and the SCS islands) and Taiwan (which they are still at war with).
How much do you really care about a piece of rock with no people and no animals living on it?
So the CCP is full of idiots that are willing to weaken their international relations for a bunch of useless pieces of rock? Is that what you are saying?
Again, not a liberal. Opposing imperialism from China doesn’t make one a liberal. This is like an example of what a school kid would write as an example of affirming the consequent. Pretty funny stuff!
Yeah, I wanted to be on a relatively small, relatively politically neutral instance with a lot of normal people, where I could express myself freely, argue for balance and nuance in an increasingly polarised world, and build working class solidarity where it actually needs to be built, rather than confining myself to an echo chamber.
The 21st century indo-pacific is not a comparable issue to 20th century Central Europe. Also appeasement wasn’t even the complete disaster casual observers like to make it out to be (who still won the war after all?) but that’s beside the point here. Taiwan is not some defenseless independent country being threatened by the reincarnation of Hitler calling for world domination. It’s a part of China that broke away in an ideological civil war that China wants back. Even the US state department acknowledges this fact, yet they still believe it is very important that they protect one part of China from another part of China and extend their civil war which should have ended for good decades ago. This is not an act of peace or charity, this is creating a conflict situation, with Taiwan right in the center of any potential explosion.
See, the US doesn’t care about these concerns is because the real reason America is in Taiwan is so they can use it as a strategic base for operations to oppose and weaken the PRC, a “West Berlin of Asia” so to say. And somehow, liberals and social democratic opportunists have deluded themselves into believing that stationing the most powerful naval fleet in history (US 7th Fleet) to permanently do ‘freedom of navigation exercises’ (armed provocations) in Chinese coastal waters is the “moderate” solution to this conflict. And I suppose we’ll just have to keep the navy there forever right? Or until the PRC finally collapses? (I’m still waiting lol)
I say we should cut a deal with the PRC, let them have Loser Island in exchange for mediating other border disputes with their neighbors. A majority of Taiwanese citizens want more integration with China, and they’re still their largest trading partner. While immediate annexation wouldn’t be popular, a gradual process of integration would be best for the entire region. It would allow the two biggest military powers to step down their aggressive actions against each other, end the period of Taiwanese citizens being used as a geopolitical pawn, and provide a solid diplomatic framework to settle future disputes in the region (as this would be a massive rapprochement in Sino-American relations) This wouldn’t even weaken American national security (which is what everyone hates about ‘appeasement’) since it’s, you know, an occupied imperialist outpost on the other side of the world’s largest ocean, not even in America’s hemisphere.
Of course this option would be totally unacceptable for the American imperialist apparatus, they would never be willing to lose such an important base in the Pacific (just ignore that they would still have Japan, Guam, Philippines, etc). So what’s going to happen instead is that the US is eventually going to get distracted and entangled in some other imperialist mess, because they can’t recognize their empire is hopelessly overextended, and China will just take Taiwan when they think the balance of power is in their favor. This would be the worse thing to happen: a chaotic breakdown of the region instead of a negotiated reordering. There will be decades of bitterness and calls for mass violence. Maybe it will also escalate and some ships get sunk and the nukes fly and oh well its World War 3. Beware those who call diplomacy ‘appeasement’ in the post-atomic age, they seek your death.
Is the Donbas a separate country because it declared independence from Ukraine?
EDIT: Which is actually more than Taiwan has done, the government in exile on Taiwan considers itself the rightful government of the entirety of mainland China and parts of Mongolia.
Donbas isn’t comparable. The government in Taiwan has had a continuous existence since before the CCP.
If the rebellious territories of the Donbas was actually a preexisting government that had all the rest of its territory taken in a civil war you might be onto something. In reality Ukraine gained sovereignty from imperial USSR and now imperial Russia wants to take it over again.
I’m not moving the goalposts, I’m just pointing out that it’s a bit disingenuous to frame a question about what should happen in an unresolved civil war as a question of nations and their sovereignty. It would be disingenuous to frame Russia’s intervention in Ukraine as defending the independence of an entire country, I think it’s a similar situation between ROC/PRC, the primary difference being the length of the dispute.
Which is relevant if we’re talking about how one can consistently be anti-imperialist, I think. I agree it’s a bit flippant to say stuff about ‘giving up Loser Island’ but I think it’s important to recognize that it’s more complicated than ‘two independent countries fighting over the territory of one of them.’
Taiwan isn’t a country. They don’t consider themselves independent, China doesn’t consider them independent, the U.S. doesn’t consider them independent.
How can you consider yourself anti-imperialiat when you don’t know the basic facts of the situation?
the current Tsai Ing-wen administration of Taiwan maintains that Taiwan is already an independent country as the Republic of China (ROC) and thus does not have to push for any sort of formal independence.
Did you even bother to read the comments you’re replying to? Taiwan isn’t a country and it never has been. It has been a part of the nation of China for centuries. When the civil war broke out, it was between two political groups inside the nation of China, a nation that includes the island of Taiwan. The communists won the war and the KMT lost and fled to Taiwan, an island in the nation of China. Because the KMT fled, the civil war continues, but the imperialist countries (UK, USA) intervened to protect the losing army that was holes up on an insland in the nation of China.
That army, the KMT, never declared independence, never said they were a separate sovereign entity, and never created a new country. They said they were the rightful rulers of the nation of China, which includes the island of Taiwan.
The imperilaists wanted the civil war to continue because they wanted control over the nation of China, which includes the island of Taiwan. So they made the KMT their proxy and funded and armed them, even while the KMT engaged in brutal mass murder campaigns and brutal political repression for 4 decades. It’s called the White Terror. Look it up. People living on Taiwan, an island in th nation of China, were Chinese nationals. When the KMT lost, many of those people wanted to end the war and recognize the communists as the new leaders of the nation of China, of which they were a part. The KMT murdered thousands of them. The imperialists agreed that this was right and good.
The UN had a seat for the nation of China. The recognized the KMT and gave them the seat at the UN. Not two seats, one for one nation and one for another, one seat for one nation, the nation of China which includes the island of Taiwan. Eventually it became untenable to recognize the KMT as the leaders of the nation of China and the world shifted to recognizing the communists of the nation of China, a nation that has an unbroken history of having an island called Taiwan which no one has challenged.
And since then, the imperilaists who cannot allow other nations to govern themselves in their own interests, has been maintaining and exacerbating the civil war to keep their proxy war against communists going.
It is anti-imperialist to support China against the interests of the West.
Have you considered the possibility that people living in Fuzhou, Putian, Quanzhou, Xiamen and Zhangzhou (among many millions of others along the coast) don’t want to have American nukes pointed at them a mere 200-300 kilometers away?
Also neither China, the US, the :international-community-1::international-community-2: or the rest of the world do not recognize Taiwan as independent. Only the :nato-cool: despite this, want to wrest Taiwan away to build a puppet state.
Wanting US empire to collapse is certainly not everything I am as a person. I guess some are only capable to see others are cartoonish cardboard cutouts as opposed to actual people.
I do have a bit of a clue about the world, the UK is not a vassal state of “the US Empire”. You’ve taken a goofy LARP that you’re some kind of revolutionary fighter up against an evil empire so far, that you’ve started to think your fantasy game is real.
Imagine saying that you have a clue about the world and that UK is not a vassal state of the US in the same sentence. UK is entirely dependent on US for military protection, that’s a relationship of a vassal. And if you think UK has any semblance of an independent economic policy you’re even more delusional. You’re like a poster child for the Dunning-Kruger effect. 😂
Oh, so you don’t know the definition of a vassal state either. I understand your confusion now. A vassal state is a state that is subordinate to another; government chiefly directed by the interests of an overlord or patron state. The US is the patron state of the UK because UK can’t have a sovereign and independent policy when it relies on military protection from US. That would be obvious to anybody with a couple of brain cells to bang together.
The UK is not subordinate to the US. The US does not direct UK policy.
it relies on military protection from US
No, it doesn’t. The UK has its own military, and it’s own military-industrial complex. The UK is not at war. It’s in a co-operative military alliance, so if someone like Russia came to invade, the US would assist.
can’t have a sovereign and independent policy
The US does not give a shit about the UK’s policy. The UK can do what it wants.
You’re literally just making stuff up, this is like flat-earth level content.
The UK is not subordinate to the US. The US does not direct UK policy.
Absolutely adorable that you think this. US has very direct impact on UK policy and UK politics, and being part of US run NATO is the main reason UK is deeply involved in the war in Ukraine right now.
No, it doesn’t. The UK has its own military, and it’s own military-industrial complex. The UK is not at war. It’s in a co-operative military alliance, so if someone like Russia came to invade, the US would assist.
You need to do a massive mental leap to jump from that opinion piece, to “the UK is a vassal state of the US Empire”. It’s like you don’t even read your own sources except the tiny bits that validate your insane worldview.
I love how you think that a single example I provided is all the evidence for US dominating UK policy that there is. It’s like you have absolutely no clue regarding what’s actually going on in geopolitics. Go read up on the “special relationship” US and UK have as another example.
It’s absolutely hilarious how you keep talking about me having an insane world view here. Enjoy pretending that you live in a free and independent country I guess. 😂
Enjoy pretending that you live in a free and independent country I guess.
I live in the US, so what are you going on about? The US doesn’t rank well globally in freedom (IE SCOTUS stripping away rights provided by RvW), but what do you mean by independent?
What is the US a vassal state to aliens? Because you smell suspiciously similar to the reptilians/adrenochrome/Jews/NWO conspiracy theories.
Ah, well you should’ve said you were American to start with, then I wouldn’t be shocked by the stunning amount of ignorance on display. And what I mean by independent is a country that is able to make sovereign decisions in the interest of its people. I love how you have to explain the meanings of common words to Americans.
Like the wealthy capitalists who own practically everything in your country and who run your government. I guess in your fantasy world, a Princeton study analyzing decades of US policy is just a hair away from saying the exact same thing a Nazi would say.
Again, it’s like you didn’t read the article except the tiny bits that fit your confirmation bias. It’s not saying that America is “not independent”, it’s not saying the oligarchs “control America”. It’s saying disproportionate wealth equals disproportionate power. Which should be obvious, no person should have too much wealth or too much power. That’s why the US government was designed with checks and balances built in, which is not working as well as desired, but works farrr better than you see in a dictatorship like Russia.
There’s no secret group controlling this big US Empire of vassal states. It’s many many rich people of varying degrees of wealth (from the US or the UK or elsewhere) all fighting amongst themselves for more, and most of the time hurting the rest of us common folk in the process.
I said that UK and the rest of US vassals states weren’t independent because they’re entirely dependent on US for military protection as well as US economy. This is the system US set up after the end of WW2 which is what NATO essentially is, a protection racket. US has a long and well documented history of political influence and interference in Europe, and entire books have been written on this subject. Claiming this is some sort of a conspiracy theory is the height of hilarity.
It’s saying disproportionate wealth equals disproportionate power. Which should be obvious, no person should have too much wealth or too much power. That’s why the US government was designed with checks and balances built in, which is not working as well as desired, but works farrr better than you see in a dictatorship like Russia.
What it says in black and white is that the government in US passes policy in the interest of people with disproportional wealth. The study actually very clearly explains that the checks and balances US has are no better than in Russia. Again, don’t take my word for it. Here’s what the authors of the study conclude as reported by BBC:
Nobody is cherry picking anything here. You just keep acting like you’re being told something outlandish out of sheer ignorance.
There’s no secret group controlling this big US Empire of vassal states. It’s many many rich people of varying degrees of wealth (from the US or the UK or elsewhere) all fighting amongst themselves for more, and most of the time hurting the rest of us common folk in the process.
Nobody suggested anything of the sort. That’s just a straw man you’re using to pretend you have some point here. There doesn’t need to be a secret group controlling US empire of vassal states. All that’s needed is having shared class interests that rich people have. Meanwhile, it’s obvious that US oligarchs want to exploit countries like UK to create more profit for themselves, and US being the dominant economy in the west puts them in a position to do so.
Here’s where this turns into a low IQ conspiracy theory.
You take a man, whose entire life and personality are devoted to business and capitalism and profit. Born with a golden spoon in his mouth, he’s in every wealthy inner circle, he even pays a ghostwriter to write him a book called “The Art of the Deal”.
He gets voted into the single most powerful position in the US. He now has the single best position to enrich himself and his family, like he has literally devoted his life to doing. He talks to his inner advisors, they crunch him the numbers, and he decides he wants to pull out of NATO, because it costs the US more than it profits.
I’m a business man. That’s how business works. You want to be profitable. If a deal isn’t profitable, you back out. Only keep the deals that make your business money.
It’s a no-brainer, if NATO was the imperial profit generating machine you claim it to be, Trump would have been all over it. Trump would have expanded NATO, expanded the borders, made more wealth. That’s what Business men like Trump do. That’s why Nazis, like Tankies, are anti-NATO. Nazis don’t want to pay to protect other countries, Nazis want more power. Nazis would just invade a country, like Russia does, not tried to maintain an expensive treaty.
If you find yourself often agreeing with Nazis on worldview and policy, you need some self reflection.
I agree, your straw man is a low IQ conspiracy theory.
The reality is that there are plenty of different capital interests in US, and not all of them are aligned. Some US capitalists make money from financial investments and prefer globalization, others are industrial capitalists who run the military industrial complex. Anybody with a couple of brain cells to rub together would understand that US capitalists don’t have homogeneous interests and that Trump represents the financial camp that doesn’t see much value in NATO.
The only low IQ take here is to think that Trump speaks for your entire capitalist class when it’s pretty clear that US capitalists are fighting each other.
I also love how you expose yourself as lacking any capacity for critical thinking here. Just because the nazis are against NATO doesn’t make NATO a good thing. The fact that you frame what you support solely in terms of opposing what the people you don’t like support really underscores your intellectual capacity. I guess if nazis eat food and breathe air then you should stop doing that too.
It’s always hilarious to see how liberals are incapable of thinking of anything in systemic terms. Everything is just a knee jerk reaction.
I never framed NATO as a good thing, lol (reading comprehension is difficult I guess). I just pointed out that it costs the US more than it makes. Although given Putin’s invasion, the capitalists of the military-industrial complex are 100% making a profit, so I guess they can thank Putin for his choice to make them lots of money.
True, the capitalists don’t have homogeneous interests. You can’t have an empire without an emperor - a single unchanging authoritarian leader that decides the movement for the rest of the country.
It’s a no-brainer, if NATO was the imperial profit generating machine you claim it to be, Trump would have been all over it. Trump would have expanded NATO, expanded the borders, made more wealth. That’s what Business men like Trump do. That’s why Nazis, like Tankies, are anti-NATO. Nazis don’t want to pay to protect other countries, Nazis want more power. Nazis would just invade a country, like Russia does, not tried to maintain an expensive treaty.
That very clearly frames NATO as a good thing since otherwise the orcs would invade you. Never mind the fact that NATO expansion was the reason for the war and that NATO is the primary destabilizing force in the world today.
You can’t have an empire without an emperor - a single unchanging authoritarian leader that decides the movement for the rest of the country.
You used so many words to say you’re historically illiterate. Late stage empires have always looked precisely the way US empire looks today where the oligarchs put in political puppets to do the governing. Late Roman empire often had demented old men as emperors who didn’t actually make any decisions.
I just love how you flaunt your ignorance with each and every comment.
That very clearly frames NATO as a good thing since otherwise the orcs would invade you.
I wouldn’t call anyone an orc, but Russia is an imperialist power trying to expand its border through a military invasion, so that is always something you need to consider. I don’t consider it to be a good thing to lay down and let colonizers run over you.
NATO is not good, but Putin gives reason for NATO to not disband yet.
Never mind the fact that NATO expansion was the reason for the war
Lol, no. Did it influence Putin? Sure. Did it make the decision to lie about invading and then immediately after invade like he’s a helpless little puppet on strings? No.
The $1 billion question is why isn’t Putin reaching out to create defensive treaties with his neighbors first. Why not a defense treaty with Ukraine?
Once you can figure that out, your worldview will start to be a lot more sane.
Late Roman empire often had demented old men as emperors who didn’t actually make any decisions.
The US is not a late state empire like Rome. That’s a * hits bong * “what if history is just like repeating itself over and over again man” kind of take. Not that no similarities exist.
Just list for me for how many years the US has a demented old man in charge.
I wouldn’t call anyone an orc, but Russia is an imperialist power trying to expand its border through a military invasion, so that is always something you need to consider. I don’t consider it to be a good thing to lay down and let colonizers run over you.
Nobody who has any clue regarding the subject believes that Russia is an imperialist power trying to expand. Plenty of western experts have been saying that NATO expansion would lead to a war for many decades. This only became controversial to mention after the war started. For example, here’s what Chomsky has to say on the issue recently:
George Kennan, arguably America's greatest ever foreign policy strategist, the architect of the U.S. cold war strategy warned that NATO expansion was a "tragic mistake" that ought to ultimately provoke a "bad reaction from Russia" back in 1998.___ https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/832e713d-8963-4ecc-ae1f-8b366830bbd4.png
Jack F. Matlock Jr., US Ambassador to the Soviet Union from 1987-1991, warning in 1997 that NATO expansion was "the most profound strategic blunder, [encouraging] a chain of events that could produce the most serious security threat [...] since the Soviet Union collapsed"___ https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/706556d4-ae53-4140-9cb2-bb2cfefd9c52.png
Even Gorbachev warned about this. All these experts were marginalized, silenced, and ignored. Yet, now people are trying to rewrite history and pretend that Russia attacked Ukraine because it’s aN iMpeRiaLisT PowEr TrYinG tO ExpaNd. Maybe you can explain why Russia has never tried to invade places like Kazakhstan which would be a lot easier to do.
NATO is not good, but Putin gives reason for NATO to not disband yet.
Oh weird, then why did NATO not disband after USSR dissolved and before Putin was in power?
Lol, no. Did it influence Putin? Sure. Did it make the decision to lie about invading and then immediately after invade like he’s a helpless little puppet on strings? No.
Read above and educate yourself instead of making clown of yourself in public.
The $1 billion question is why isn’t Putin reaching out to create defensive treaties with his neighbors first. Why not a defense treaty with Ukraine?
Because your regime ran a coup in Ukraine in 2014 and overthrew a democratically elected government to put literal fascists in power. Here’s western media reporting on your friends
The US is not a late state empire like Rome. That’s a * hits bong * “what if history is just like repeating itself over and over again man” kind of take. Not that no similarities exist.
You really love to straw man don’t you. I gave you an example of a late stage empire not having a strong emperor in charge, nowhere did I make any comparisons with the US.
Just list for me for how many years the US has a demented old man in charge.
I dunno can you do basic math to figure out how may years it’s been since you chuds elected Trump and then Biden?
The $1 billion question is why isn’t Putin reaching out to create defensive treaties with his neighbors first. Why not a defense treaty with Ukraine?
Because your regime ran a coup in Ukraine in 2014 and overthrew a democratically elected government to put literal fascists in power. Here’s western media reporting on your friends
This is astonishingly stupid, you completely sidestepped the question. Let’s assume your point about 2014 is true, that’s still 23 years Russia did not form a treaty, which would have prevented the coup. That should have been the easiest, most obvious first move to counter NATO. Instead Russia is tearing itself apart trying to keep its claws dug into a little bit of Ukrainian territory.
In any scenario where you create an image of the west as some kind of empire overlord powerhouse that manipulates all global events, you make Russia and ex-Soviets look hopelessly stupid and incompetent.
This is astonishingly stupid, you completely sidestepped the question.
I did not sidestep any questions. Ukraine and Russia had normal relations until the coup, and Russia was even fine with Ukraine joining the EU at the time.
Let’s assume your point about 2014 is true, that’s still 23 years Russia did not form a treaty, which would have prevented the coup.
There was no need for a treaty because there weren’t any tensions between Ukraine and Russia, Ukraine also expressed no ambitions to join NATO until the coup, you get that right? All the problems started after the coup.
Instead Russia is tearing itself apart trying to keep its claws dug into a little bit of Ukrainian territory.
In what universe is Russia is tearing itself apart exactly? Russian economy is growing, the government has higher approval rating than pretty much any western country, and Russia managed to refocus its trade away from the west. Even mainstream western media is openly admitting all this now.
In any scenario where you create an image of the west as some kind of empire overlord powerhouse that manipulates all global events, you make Russia and ex-Soviets look hopelessly stupid and incompetent.
Among the dumb things you’ve said in this thread, this certainly take the cake. The reason US emerged as a global hegemon out of WW2 was for the simple reason that US was not subject to the destruction of the war. While USSR, Europe, and China were completely devastated, US profiteered off the war, and then subjugated Europe to itself after when the Cold War started. I realize that you’ve had the misfortune of being subjected to US “education” system, but not understanding this is frankly embarrassing.
There was no need for a treaty because there weren’t any tensions between Ukraine and Russia, Ukraine also expressed no ambitions to join NATO until the coup, you get that right? All the problems started after the coup.
Let me get this right, all the experts are warning about NATO expansion putting pressure on Russia, but Russia is feeling no pressure from NATO expansion. All the experts are warning about it! But there’s no tension. Again, you’re just saying that ex-Soviets are severely stupid and incompetent, because apparently this was a big deal since 1997, but also no big deal until 2014. Your timelines are incoherent.
In what universe is Russia is tearing itself apart exactly? Russian economy is growing, the government has higher approval rating than pretty much any western country, and Russia managed to refocus its trade away from the west. Even mainstream western media is openly admitting all this now.
Lol, I would approve of my government if disapproving meant being thrown out of a window.
You know what, you’re right. Russia is doing great, we’re going to see a massive victory over Ukraine and the war will be over. Any day now.
The reason US emerged as a global hegemon out of WW2
Obviously the US had a huge economic advantage, explain how that economic advantage leads to the extreme geopolitical incompetence of ex-Soviets. The incompetence that means they can’t from treaties, they dangle like a puppet by NATO strings, and start wars they can’t finish.
Let me get this right, all the experts are warning about NATO expansion putting pressure on Russia, but Russia is feeling no pressure from NATO expansion.
I don’t know what part of this you’re having trouble wrapping your head around. Ukraine was a neutral state that did trade with both Russia and the west and wasn’t joining any military alliances with either side. If you have some new information nobody knows about that contradicts this then feel free to share it.
Again, you’re just saying that ex-Soviets are severely stupid and incompetent, because apparently this was a big deal since 1997, but also no big deal until 2014. Your timelines are incoherent.
Nowhere am I saying anything of the sort, these are just your delusional ramblings.
Lol, I would approve of my government if disapproving meant being thrown out of a window.
You’ll have to forgive me, I keep forgetting I’m talking to a child.
You know what, you’re right. Russia is doing great, we’re going to see a massive victory over Ukraine and the war will be over. Any day now.
How do you think this war is going to end exactly?
Obviously the US had a huge economic advantage, explain how that economic advantage leads to the extreme geopolitical incompetence of ex-Soviets.
What extreme geopolitical incompetence are you talking about exactly? Last I checked, Soviets managed to fight against your despotic regime for over 70 years.
I don’t know what part of this you’re having trouble wrapping your head around. Ukraine was a neutral state that did trade with both Russia and the west and wasn’t joining any military alliances with either side. If you have some new information nobody knows about that contradicts this then feel free to share it.
It’s not about just Ukraine. You’re so narrow, it’s like you can’t engage with my points outside of a pre-programmed response. Russia could be forming treaties with ANY and ALL neighboring countries. There is (almost…) no reason not to. If NATO has the geopolitical savvy to expand with treaties, what is stopping Russia. That’s what you need to figure out.
You’ll have to forgive me, I keep forgetting I’m talking to a child.
Lol, do you deny the high rate of people falling out of windows in Russia?
How do you think this war is going to end exactly?
Likely not for years, and either Russia will back out, or they will successfully genocide the people of Ukraine and take the bombed-out land.
What extreme geopolitical incompetence are you talking about exactly? Last I checked, Soviets managed to fight against your despotic regime for over 70 years.
“Soviets managed to fight” you mean ex-Soviets, because the USSR is kaput. Plus all the NATO territory expansion, the US empire growing its collection of vassal states, extracting and growing its wealth. That is your story, not mine. What does Russia have to show since 1991?
Exactly, now explain why NATO is overwhelmingly more successful in expanding its alliance. Why does 80% of Ukraine’s population support joining NATO instead of SCTO?
Weird way to say Russia will protect people in Donbas from the fascist regime your country is sponsoring.
Oh right, protection is when you genocide the majority to protect the minority.
You have a literal despot who has not relinquished power in over two decades leading an invasion, bombing cities, shooting civilians, and raping their wives and daughters. Tell me more about what you know of fascist regimes.
Exactly, now explain why NATO is overwhelmingly more successful in expanding its alliance. Why does 80% of Ukraine’s population support joining NATO instead of SCTO?
I have already explained to you that US was in the dominant position after WW2 by virtue of profiteering from the war. What part of that are you still struggling with?
Why does 80% of Ukraine’s population support joining NATO instead of SCTO?
You want me to explain something you made up?
Let’s just take a look at a few slides from this lecture that Mearsheimer gave back in 2015 to get a bit of background on the subject. Mearsheimer is certainly not pro Russian in any sense, and a proponent of US global hegemony. First, here’s the demographic breakdown of Ukraine:
As we can clearly see from the voting patterns in both elections, the country is divided exactly across the current line of conflict. Furthermore, a survey conducted in 2015 further shows that there is a sharp division between people of eastern and western Ukraine on which economic bloc they would rather belong to:
Ukraine is clearly not some homogeneous blob, but a large country with complex cultural and ethnic situations.
Oh right, protection is when you genocide the majority to protect the minority.
The only one projecting here is you buddy given that your country is the one actually responsible for genocide across the globe.
You have a literal despot who has not relinquished power in over two decades leading an invasion, bombing cities, shooting civilians, and raping their wives and daughters. Tell me more about what you know of fascist regimes.
If you want to see what an actual fascist regime looks like then maybe you should look back home. US empire is responsible, or shares responsibility, for close to 300 million deaths nyupress.org/9781583679890/endless-holocausts/
Ukraine is clearly not some homogeneous blob, but a large country with complex cultural and ethnic situations.
Good job, you described every country that has ever existed.
You’re also making the common US right wing fascist L of conflating empty land mass with population. Yes, it’s a complex population, and a map of empty land looks 50/50, but there is a pretty overwhelming pro-West majority. The question that you still refuse to answer is why. Because it will break your worldview.
If you want to see what an actual fascist regime looks like then maybe you should look back home. US empire is responsible, or shares responsibility, for close to 300 million deaths nyupress.org/9781583679890/endless-holocausts/
Oh, I do not at all defend any of the violence, the bombings, or the genocides committed by the US. I condemn every imperialist invasion, and the evil people who lead them. I will happily take part in imprisoning any US president for life. Because I have actual values. You wouldn’t know what that’s like.
You’re also making the common US right wing fascist L of conflating empty land mass with population.
Not doing any such thing, nowhere did I talk about land at all. I love how all your arguments are just straw man.
Yes, it’s a complex population, and a map of empty land looks 50/50, but there is a pretty overwhelming pro-West majority.
The parts that joined Russia do not have western majority as the map clearly shows. In fact, the whole civil war started in 2014 because western backed fascists went after the minority in the east. Of course, you don’t give a shit about those people as you’ve amply demonstrated there.
The question that you still refuse to answer is why. Because it will break your worldview.
I didn’t refuse to answer anything. The only one with a bleak world view here is the one who thinks it’s fine for western backed fascists to exterminate minorities. Thanks for admitting what you actually stand for.
Oh, I do not at all defend any of the violence, the bombings, or the genocides committed by the US. I condemn every imperialist invasion, and the evil people who lead them. I will happily take part in imprisoning any US president for life. Because I have actual values. You wouldn’t know what that’s like.
The only thing you’ve condemned so far was Russia protecting people of Donbas from the fascists you support. You claim to condemn evil people while allying with literal fascists, and you expect people to take you seriously.
Not doing any such thing, nowhere did I talk about land at all. I love how all your arguments are just straw man.
Literally right in the pictures you posted but nice gaslighting.
The only one with a bleak world view here is the one who thinks it’s fine for western backed fascists to exterminate minorities.
It’s wrong for western backed fascists to exterminate minorities. It’s wrong for fascist Russia to exterminate majorities. It’s not hard for me to say, why is it hard for you to say?
You claim to condemn evil people while allying with literal fascists, and you expect people to take you seriously.
I’m not allying with anyone. You’re making the same L you accused me of earlier. Just because I condemn Russia doesn’t mean I support the other side. I condemn both sides, several times now. I haven’t seen you condemn fascist Russia even once.
Literally right in the pictures you posted but nice gaslighting.
The picture I posted illustrates the views of the demographic in the different regions showing that eastern regions that joined Russia have predominantly pro Russian views. The only one doing gaslighting here is you.
It’s wrong for western backed fascists to exterminate minorities. It’s wrong for fascist Russia to exterminate majorities. It’s not hard for me to say, why is it hard for you to say?
Except you very clearly are. You can deny it all you want, but it’s quite clear from this thread that you support the fascist regime in Ukraine. You haven’t seen me condemn fascist Russia because it only exists in your deranged mind.
The whole pattern of this thread has been you making fantastical claims then me providing sources contradicting your nonsense and you just pivoting to new fantastical claims without ever acknowledging your prior bullshit. You’re like a little wanna be Trump.
The whole pattern of this thread has been you making fantastical claims
“The UK is a vassal state to the US Empire” is a fantastical claim.
“Russia is a fascist xenophobic homophobic transphobic country ruled by a corrupt despot that made the sovereign decision to start an invasion” is real life.
“The UK is a vassal state to the US Empire” is a fantastical claim.
It’s not, and I’ve explained to you in detail why as well as having provided you with numerous resources on the subject. You’ve never actually contradicted anything I said either and just pivoted to other bullshit.
“Russia is a fascist xenophobic homophobic transphobic country ruled by a corrupt despot that made the sovereign decision to start an invasion” is real life.
That’s precisely what a xenophobe from US would say. Russia certainly has plenty of issues, however in practice it’s not very different from many western countries. The real life is that the war was a product of decades of NATO policy, and it’s not even hidden. RAND literally published a study titled Extending Russia where it outlines goading Russia into a proxy war in Ukraine as a way to achieve that.
Maybe spend some time educating yourself instead of shitposting on public forms. Just a thought.
It’s not, and I’ve explained to you in detail why as well as having provided you with numerous resources on the subject.
Resources that say nothing about the UK being a vassal state or the US being an empire. You make a huge logical leap to conclusions based on your inherent biases.
Russia certainly has plenty of issues, however in practice it’s not very different from many western countries.
Atrociously bad policy on LGBTQ rights, freedom of speech, but does better on homing the homeless and other human rights. Can’t get rid of its corrupt ruling despot; the US has many corrupt government officials that don’t see term limits.
I agree, Russia is overall no worse or better than the West.
The real life is that the war was a product of decades of NATO policy, and it’s not even hidden
Are you familiar with the narcissist’s prayer?
“I didn’t do it, and if I did, it’s your fault”
Defense of Russia I’ve noticed follows the narcissist’s prayer pattern. “Russia didn’t do it, and if it did, it’s the West’s fault”.
Resources that say nothing about the UK being a vassal state or the US being an empire. You make a huge logical leap to conclusions based on your inherent biases.
The sources make it very clear that UK politics are subordinate to US, and it’s very clear that UK economic and military dependency on US means that it’s not able to pass sovereign and independent policy that’s at odds with US interests.
Defense of Russia I’ve noticed follows the narcissist’s prayer pattern. “Russia didn’t do it, and if it did, it’s the West’s fault”.
It’s frankly depressing that you evidently don’t understand how infantile this framing is. NATO has been expanding to Russian borders and violently invading countries for decades, but you expect that Russia should just ignore that. How do you think US would react if Russia ran a coup in Mexico, invited Mexico in CSTO, stated intention to put nuclear weapons in Mexico.
The reality of the situation is that Ukraine was a sovereign and neutral state that did trade with both Russia and the west. This wasn’t good enough for the west, and the west decided to overthrow the legitimate government in Ukraine. That’s how this war started back in 2014. And if you just ignore all that then you’re morally and intellectually bankrupt.
It’s pretty clear than neither one of us is going to convince the other of anything here, and we’re just going in circles here. So, you can have the last word if that makes you feel better. I’ve said all I have to say here.
It is the USA that has been the target of appeasement. Every expansion, every death squad, every war crime, every black site, every assassination, every war of aggression, every single time the world appeases the USA.
If you think the USA is appeasing China, your head is screwed on backwards. I know it’s a common trope for abusers to feel offended and attacked when their victims standup for themselves, and I know you probably stand with the victims and see through the abusers’ bullshit. You need to do that with the USA.
Abu Ghraib - appeased.
Nord Stream 2 - appeased.
Solemaini - appeased.
Iraq - appeased.
Iraq 2 - appeased.
Vietnam - appeased.
Laos - appeased.
Cambodia - appeased.
Korea - appeased.
Hiroshima - appeased.
Nagasaki - appeased.
Guantanamo - appeased.
Libya - appeased.
Syria - appeased.
StuxNet - appeased.
Pulling out of nuclear treaties - appeased.
Refusing to be accountable to ICC - appeased.
Refusing to sign landmine treaty - appeased.
Agent Orange - appeased.
Napalm - appeased.
White phosphorus - appeased.
Depleted Uranium - appeased.
Yugoslavia - appeased.
Afghanistan - appeased.
School of the Americas - appeased.
Wiretapping the entire US civilian population - appeased.
Wiretapping every embassy through Siemens supply chain attack - appeased.
NATO expansion - appeased.
Economic shock therapy kills millions - appeased.
Training terrorists - appeased.
Airlifting terrorists into other countries - appeased.
Environmental devastation - appeased.
Sending expired vaccines - appeased.
Refusing to send vaccines - appeased.
Refusing to follow the predefined protocol for sharing vaccine research - appeased.
Iranian regime change - appeased.
Color revolutions - appeased.
Extracting trillions from Africa - appeased.
Child separation - appeased.
Toddlers in solitary confinement - appeased.
Forced hysterectomies - appeased.
Collective punishment of civilians - appeased.
Support for Israeli apartheid - appeased.
Iran-Contra - appeased.
Fast and Furious - appeased.
CIA drug trafficking - appeased.
Haitian assassination - appeased.
Bolivia - appeased.
Nicaragua - appeased.
Pinochet - appeased.
Fuck the United States. They’re easily the worst, most imperialist nation on the planet. But we’re capable of more nuance than “any country in opposition to the US can do no wrong”
Pretty good, actually! Thanks for asking. I don’t want to get into too many details, but let’s just say that the roles were reversed from what you’re imagining. He was a lovely guy, it’s a shame that he was so inflexible with his beliefs, we got along really well because we shared a lot of common ground. I think the India/China thing was the first thing we actually disagreed on, and that was enough to end our relationship. Which is absolutely fair, but it took me a bit by surprise at the time.
New hexbear tagline lmao. Also he probably broke up with you because you keep saying “CCP” instead of “CPC” and he realized you were a sinophobic racist lmao.
He called it CCP himself lmfao you guys are so fucking funny. Love that being in a relationship with a Chinese guy meant that I was sinophobic. This is literally the most amusing thread I’ve ever created, I’m so glad I wrote my comment.
Why do you try to attack an identity you’re assuming that I hold, rather than addressing my actual arguments? Could it be because you’re incapable of actually successfully arguing against the points I’m making?
And no, I’m not an “ultra”, though it’s quite a vaguely defined term, I’m not opposed to all of the structures that ultra-leftists are traditionally opposed to. Keep guessing, though. You’ll probably get it eventually. The world is a nuanced place and you shouldn’t try to shove everything into a convenient box to make it easier to deal with. That’s lib behaviour. You should know better.
My argument is that neither side should invade the other and that they should peacefully coexist. I support peace, balanced reconciliation, and the end of capitalism.
Seem contradictory to use charged language like 'appeasement '. And then to say you want everyone to coexist peacefully. It seems to advocate for containment which isn’t peaceful coexistence.
Would you explain what the contradiction is between a desire for peace and an opposition to imperialism?
If “containment of x” means “making it harder for x to invade” then yes, I am advocating for that so long as the ends justify the means, and yes, that is peaceful coexistence. If you have a personal problem with that, then I don’t care. But it’s a perfectly coherent philosophy.
I agree, we are capable of more nuance than the ludicrous position you just made up right now to shut down the conversation before you have to do any uncomfortable introspection.
What the fuck is wrong with you? The idea that the USA could possibly engage in appeasement is completely undermined by the fact that THEY ARE THE AGGRESSOR WHO IS BEING APPEASED. When China pushes back against the USA they are not doing something wrong, they are doing something against the USA’s interests. When China doesn’t push back against the USA, they are appeasing.
The entire analysis of “oh everyone is bad and therefore the USA shouldn’t appease them” is completely structureless. It’s all moron vibes.
I would need to analyze the situation. The CPC has established it will not do this for any reason except to protect Chinese national security interests. If it turns out that the USA delivers advanced missile “defense” systems and other nuclear capabilities including submarines, air power, and other plaforms and assets, then it will be all but strategically certain that China will be forced to use military action to push the USA off the island and out of the surrounding waters.
Given the analysis of the Ukraine conflict, it’s possible that China may need to include other considerations that I am not fully up to speed on about American capabilities and American proxy war strategies.
In short, yes, I trust the CPC to only use military force when all other options for defense against the USA have been exhausted. This has been their policy and doctrine for a while and there are no indications of it changing anytime soon.
Honestly, I don’t think we really disagree all that much in broad terms. We both hate US imperialism. I just don’t see the CCP as an omni-benevolent state which can do no wrong. Until the world is ready to fully transition away from capitalism, greed and totalitarianism, it is best to limit the power and influence of nation states. And that includes states which claim to be transitioning towards communism. Checks and balances against supremacy prevents anti-revolutionary elements from seizing control of the state and turning its power against the people. Let’s just agree to disagree, move on with our lives, and spend our energy arguing with people who still support capitalism instead.
My Chinese ex would refer to it as CCP, so I’ll stick with that, since I trust him on this more than internet randoms. Actually, he’d usually just refer to it as “the party”, or occasionally “zhonggong”, but that would be a bit confusing, so CCP it is.
My point is that despite the party using CPC officially, even Chinese people will use CCP or “the party” when communicating outside of China, and inside China they will call it zhonggong, or the full name, which I will not embarrass myself by attempting to reproduce. Like I said, I know more about this shit than you do, so give it a fucking rest. It doesn’t matter whether I call it CPC or CCP as long as my communication is clear, and everyone knew exactly what I was referringn to.
Frankly, I think you are a liar and don’t care what you have to say. “The Communist Party of China” is the official English-language title, and is in the format of the majority of communist parties worldwide.
Calling it the CCP is a transparent and pathetic attempt to demonstrate information control, to force your enemy to be referred to by the name you assign them. It is a method of racist dehumanization and a way for liberals to affirm to each other that they are not committing wrongthink by using the name officially sanctioned by their masters.
If you think I’m a liar and you don’t care what I have to say then I have nothing more to say to you. But I have told the truth 100% of the time in all of my comments on this website. You can look into my history for all of the times where I have made errors or mistakes and apologised and admitted that I was wrong, and all of the times where people have asked me to prove my claims that they found unbelievable which I was able to prove.
I don’t have any proof of my relationship that I could share which isn’t extremely personal, so there’s no much I can do to prove my claim, but what I do have is a WeChat account. You cannot have a WeChat account in the west without getting a citizen of mainland China to vouch for you. I know it’s not much proof, but yeah, I’m not going to share photos of us together or our conversations or anything like that.
We do disagree, a lot. For example you think I believe that China is omnibenevolent. I don’t.
Another example, you think it’s possible to limit the power and influence of nationstates without simultaneously expanding the power and influence of nationstates. Exactly how do you think this is possible? Who, exactly, is going to limit the power and influence of China? After that power and influence is limited, what do you think will happen to the power and influence of others.
What you don’t seem to understand is that China is STILL going through the process of limiting the power and influence of the North Atlantic in China’s own physical location. The USA however, is busy limiting the power and influence of other nations in those nations’ physical locations. Pushing back against the North Atlantic is literally how you achieve the goal you say you want.
The idea of having checks and balances in an international world order that has spent the last 600 years dominating 80% of the world’s population with abject brutality and genocide required the expansion of power and influence of formerly oppressed states. Like it or not, you can’t just reduce the USA’s influence with vibes while the USA reduces China’s influence with nukes.
If the United States’s Union split in half tomorrow, then the power of the United States would be diminished. This would simultaneously strengthen every other nation state in comparison. So by limiting the power of the CCP, we reduce their ability to cause harm. It’s not a zero sum game between the US and China or even NATO and China. There are plenty of other people involved. This isn’t a video game. We are talking about people’s lives.
And yes, I also oppose NATO.
Anyways, I’m done with you. I have tried to build consensus and establish equal ground but you just refuse to admit that you made assumptions about me that were wrong. I don’t want to spend any more time talking to someone who won’t respect what I write enough to actually read it.
LOL, you tried to establish common ground by assuming shit about me and when I explain my position you take offense. You can’t imagine that reducing Chinese power inherently increases North Atlantic power despite not being a zero sum game. You live in a fantasy world.
You see - fuck the US - but if the US is putting 12 000 km away from their mainland military equipment on what they recognize as China’s territory, it is actually “CCP imperialism” if they react ;)
You realize that if country A does something bad, "Country B did something bad too!" is not actually a defense of country A's behaviour? Indeed, it just implies that you agree that that behaviour is bad.
China isn’t doing something bad. The USA is an aggressor in the region and has been for decades. The USA took over for the French in Vietnam, and that goes back a long time. The USA took over from Japan in Korea, and that goes back awhile too. The USA is the active aggressor here. The idea that China pushing back against USA aggression could ever be considered appeasement is completely illogical.
What China is doing is not capable of being appeased. It would be like saying that if Nazi Germany left Poland alone because Poland was fighting back then Germany would be guilty of appeasing Poland. It’s moronic beyond fucking belief.
No. It’s not whataboutism, it’s evidence that your argument is illogical. The USA cannot possibly appease China because the USA is the one being appeased the world over. The USA is the Fourth Reich. When China opposes it, China is doing its part to create a future where the USA no longer can hurt the supermajority of the world’s people.
If this is bad behavior than what do you call the countless military exercises the US does all over the world as a show of force against other sovereign nations?
The reality is that doing a military exercise in your own backyard is required for national security. Look at a map some day. Tell me what’s wrong with China doing exercises off their own coast.
no, it's off the coast of Taiwan, and there is no international consensus on Taiwan. Most countries have distinct foreign relations with Taiwan separate from China.
also, you know, caring what the people of Taiwan want, if that's remotely a possibility for you.
There are a large number of things that are factually incorrect with your position.
Taiwan is a small island off the coast of China. By virtue of its size, the coastal waters of mainland China contain the island of Taiwan. By virtue of its distance from the mainland, if the island were not present, off the coast of the mainland includes off the coast of Taiwan. The island of Taiwan is about as far from mainland China as Key West is from Florida. Activities off the coast of Key West are considered activities off the coast of Florida and not of some other state.
The nation of China has included the island of Taiwan from centuries. When two different political groups fought a civil war for control over the nation, the losers fled to the island of Taiwan and declared themselves the government of the nation of China in exile. At no point did either group decide that the mainland and the island were part of different nations or nations unto themselves.
The historical reason many nations have distinct relationships with Taiwan is historically relevant here. The reason is because most nations were anti-communist, refused to acknowledge the communist government of China, and still wanted to exploit China. So, they recognized the KMT as the government of China - not of Taiwan but of China, because the nation of China includes Taiwan. The reason they did this is because they had been dominating China for 100 years and believed the KMT would act as their vassals and believed the CPC would not. So, imperialists who were dominating China protected the losers in the civil war. Had they not intervened, the losers would have been captured. UK and USA creates a dependent puppet government while it conducted a mass murder campaign for decades. All the whole, no one said Taiwan was a separate and new country, not even the KMT on the island of Taiwan.
The UN has a seat on the security council for the nation of China. The KMT was the political body occupying that seat on behf of the nation of China. When the CPC won the war and took over the nation of China, the UN continued to assert that the KMT was the rightful government of China, the nation that includes the island of Taiwan. Eventually, no one could sustain the bullshit anymore and the CPC, the political group in charge of the nation of China, took the seat at the UN.
Thus, the world sees Taiwan as a province of the nation of China and the CPC as the political government of the nation of China. The people of Taiwan, that is to say, the survivors of the 40-year reign of terror where it was a crime punishable by death to even talk about the CPC as the government of China, some of these people now wish to figure out a way to secede. Why do they wish to secede? Because the UK and USA have invested decades and trillions and in creating conditions that make this a reasonable position. Like Hong Kong, the West has established significant finance capital and high tech operations that give an elite upper crust a very high quality of life and the middle class a quality of life like a wealthy European nation. In addition, the West has spent 40 years propagandizing and manipulating the people on the island under the banner of protecting the KMT from the evil commies.
So yes. There is a secessionary movement. It is explicitly motivated by desire to be economically dependent on the West. But it is a secessionary movement to become something other than a province of the nation of China, which means it assumes from the get go that Taiwan is not an independent nation.
Your utter lack of historical understanding is appalling, especially in light of your position that military response by the West is justified.
Taiwan is a sovereign nation with its own coastal waters. Does Singapore not have rights to its coastal waters? Taiwan is about 50 times larger than they are.
Weird how nations becoming independent had a history of not being independent beforehand, this is a non-point at best, pro imperialism at worst.
I dont care how you feel about countries reasons for having foreign relations with Taiwan separate from China
this isnt relevant to Taiwan's sovereignty who gets to have the seat of 'China' at the UN.
I also dont appreciate the notion that the people of Taiwan just have no free will and are all brainwashed. That's a very lazy approach anyone can take against anyone they think has the wrong opinion. You can pull up any material from western sources supporting Taiwan and call it proof of manipulation. And I can point to China posturing its military against Taiwans will outside its waters for daring to have a US official visit them as intimidation to manipulate their opinions. Taiwan has been exposed to both sides, and this is what they want.
If Taiwan were a sovereign nation, then its coastal waters would be coincidental with China’s, so again, your claim is spurious. But as Taiwan is not sovereign, has never claimed sovereignty, and has never been recognized as an independent sovereignty, the point is moot.
Pro-imperialism is supporting the European-imposed order. Taiwan’s separation from the mainland was a European intervention - literal imperialism. Ending the separation is, by definition, anti-imperialism. Could Taiwan secede from China eventually? Sure. Not now, though, when secession from China guarantees nuclear encirclement by imperialists.
I don’t have feelings about countries’ reasons for Taiwan relationships. I am just reporting history. You can make stupid claims about feelings but it doesn’t change the fact that your argument has no basis in reality.
The relevancy is to disprove your saying that Taiwan isn’t recognized internationally as a part of the nation of China.
These are the territorial claims of the government on Taiwan, from a state the US and much of the Western world support or at least de facto like to defend in Asia. They never made any remarks regarding Taiwan’s claims with 18 other countries. If the US supports peace in the Asia Pacific (besides looking at a map and asking why the US has even a say about Asia in the first place), then surely Mainland China must be supported, as by protecting & legitimizing Taiwan’s constitution, you’re approving this shit in Asia.
Well, if they are so democratic, and support other nations sovereignty as they would like their own, why don’t they remove them from their constitution? I have a feeling you have no idea of the ideology of the state on that island.
Wdym? I said it does not make sense to say appeasement politics is bad but then by supporting the government on Taiwan, and appeasing their claims. If anything we need to define sovereignity first and then support a side on conditions. Which are obvioulsy not made regarding Taiwan’s claims because of Westerners lust for hegemony.
the only claim being appeased is to what they already control, Taiwan. That's their country. I asked for specific actions being taken by Taiwan to take territory from sovereign nations. What other claims are we appeasing? Has there been military action against Mongolia, or Japan, that we are hypocritically ignoring? What threat to other nation's sovereignty are we ignoring from Taiwan?
the only claim being appeased is to what they already control, Taiwan
That’s not true, or at least what I would argue. You can point me to any article where some Western politician is saying “as long as Taiwan want it’s island we support that, but not more than that”. In fact, I don’t know of any conditions the US or anybody who defends Taiwanese independence, is making regarding their claims. There is no “Taiwan only” constitution that the US supports. This is the needle in the ass of the PRC. I think it would be a different situation, if Taiwan (and the US) would say "we want Taiwan to be its own country, and we recognize the PRC as the successor of China.
But they don’t do that. They actually support the ROC and everything on their constitution. Including the 11-dash line in the South China Sea, that is larger than what China is drawing with their 9-dash line That they are for the “will of the Taiwanese to just be independant on their island” is for the public of the G7 countries. Nobody is willing to give up the territories of ROC afaik. Yes the ROC can’t do anything about it in terms of military power, but they equally don’t make any steps to remove them. (But I think if the US tells it’s guys at the DPP to create such a constitution that claims only the island of Taiwan, they will only do it to provocate an attack by China. But that’s beyond my point and the map above.)
Not only has US never endorsed their claims outside Taiwan, they still dont formally endorse their claims to Taiwan itself. So no. They dont support RoC's constitution and as far as im aware have never commented on it.
You couldn’t be more wrong. The ROC wouldn’t exist had the US not intervened in the civil war by stationing the US navy between Taiwan and the mainland. The US recognized the territorial claims of the ROC for around 30 years. The US even pushed the ROC to recognize Mongolian independence in the 60s.
And whats the part where US endorsed RoCs constitution? Youve given me an example of them protecting just the island territory, and an example of them disagreeing with their constitution.
Let me get this straight. You think the US intervened in the Chinese civil war because they thought the ROC had a rightful claim to Taiwan and nothing else? Amazing lol
It’s just funny that you believe that. Remember the KMT wasn’t from Taiwan. When fleeing the mainland, they invaded Taiwan and oppressed and murdered the indigenous people of the island. Yet you’re here stating that the US only defended the KMT’s right to Taiwan as if that was a sensible position to take at the time.
Not only has US never endorsed their claims outside Taiwan
You keep pulling shit from your ass. The US has formerly recognized the ROC and all its claims, then put the PRC into UN instead in the cold war to get them on their side. And recognized the One-China Policy.
Now, if the US is again violating the One-China Policy, that means they deal with ROC as a state again. Here you start to pull out without sources or proof an assumption that there is an imaginary state called Taiwan, with a constitution with claims only about the island itself, and that the US is exactly protecting this state, which I said does not exist in that form.
My whole point is the absence of that nuance, and that this state the US de facto recognized has claims worse that any other country in Asia.
They dont support RoC’s constitution
I mean yes now they don’t recognize it officially, but they and the government on Taiwan do not make any considerations regarding these claims, they just still have them? That is literally my whole point.
Dude, you like have never heard of the Chinese civil war? And on which side the US was? The US supported the Guomindang of ROC because they should have been according to them the successor of mainland China. And long after they escaped to Taiwan, the US was putting sactions, economic blockades and manipulations on the PRC because according to the US they were just terrorists residing on the mainland, and in the beginning they wanted to re-establish the ROCs rule on the mainland.
You now demand from me to post some specific stuff that is never explicitly stated. You also won’t find any document from Western countries in Europe recognizing that the Donbass is a region of Ukraine, what matters is when they recognize it’s constution and accept that state on international levels.
Its time for you to put up some of that bold claims. I actually am interested, if you have any constitution or proposal of that Taiwan nation you keep talking, you can send it to me, I would really like to know what they have in mind if there is something like this.
Holy shit, you’re telling me that both sides in a civil war think they should have full control of the country they’re in a civil war over? Hang on I need to sit fucking down my head is spinning
No, I think you need to read my comment and your’s again. You say appeasement politics will lead to no good, so… you protect the ROC’s claims instead, which is even appeasing more that just leaving China. I caught your illogical argument, and distilled it to the meaningless content that it was. Now you pretend stupid to run away from that illogical claim. But you can’t win against me, who studied at Oxford, Nato boy
you can’t win against me, who studied at Oxford, Nato boy
This is the most unbelievably embarrassing thing I have ever read on Lemmy. Honestly, if you regret writing this, please let me know. I will amend my comment to erase the fact you ever wrote it.
you protect the ROC’s claims
Please cite evidence of my support of Taiwan’s territorial claims. If you believe that opposing CCP imperialism means that one must also support Taiwanese territorial claims then you have made an incorrect assumption - and a converse error on your part does not constitute a failure on mine.
I’m very sorry that I refuse to defend the strawman you so thoughtfully prepared for me. By all means, whack away at him. I would suggest that you take your own advice, by the way, and read my actual comment and respond to the text of what I wrote, not some imagined subtext your Oxford-educated brain conjured to allay your cognitive dissonance. Oh, and one last thing - whatever your parents paid for that education, unfortunately it would appear to have turned out a poor investment.
what do you think imperialism is? the island of taiwan has historically been part of china, the KMT just held onto it after losing the civil war. it’s like if the CSA somehow kept florida
And United States has historically been part of the United Kingdom. Does that mean if the UK redrew maps to show that the US was their territory it wouldn’t be imperialism? Imperialism is the expansion of the territory or influence of a state especially through the use of violence. The CCP wishes to extend its influence into Taiwan and they are willing to use military force to do so. That’s why they’re so mad about Taiwan being provided with the means to defend themselves. It would make a military invasion more difficult and costly.
Then get prepped, cause I did my postgraduate at MIT as well. There are no smarter guys than those graduating there. I knew you would now claim “where did I said we need support Taiwanese territorial claims mimimi”. Did you read the article and what it is about? What is the US and what is China’s point of conflict? Tell me, how can you say “we can’t appease China blabla…” to do what? Taiwan is the exact part of their sovereign terrorial claims. Opposing them on the fact that Taiwan becomes/remains independant is exactly enabling the territorial claims of the state on that island, ROC.
And now you backpedal, “I’m commenting on the article but in fact I do not support US point of view and argue without the context of any article we comment on!!!1! Its my isolated opinion from those events and blabla” or “Actually I meant we should oppose China but also make demands on Taiwan’s contitution and put conditions on their clams blabla…”. I know that if you would understand any of this conflict or history you wouldn’t actually call under the article of US warmongering, encirclement and violation of the One-China policy regarding China’s claim of Taiwan, an act of “CCP imperialism”. But know you backtrack and try to slip away like a oily snake. There is no escape from my superior arguing skills, and you’re critic of appeasing hypocritical is false even on the level of formal logics.
whatever your parents paid for that education, unfortunately it would appear to have turned out a poor investment.
You sound like Donald Trump lmao. “Oh I went to Harvard got really good grades”.
I haven’t backpedaled on shit. I wrote a top level reply in an off-site comments section. I am not required to take an all-or-nothing position, either wholeheartedly agreeing or disagreeing with every claim in the article. The world has nuance.
I haven’t backpedaled on shit. I wrote a top level reply in an off-site comments section. I am not required to take an all-or-nothing position, either wholeheartedly agreeing or disagreeing with every claim in the article. The world has nuance.
A lot of words for saying you have no consistent logic. If you understand the claims of Taiwan and that the US is supporting this state, you can’t impossible speak of “CCP imperialism”, in the context of ROC’s claims, and call their right for their territory as appeasement. But I know that people outside of Harvard have liquid arguments.
Btw lmao I neither studied at US nor UK, that only a joke. Yes I think he said something along that with Harvard lol
You’re making a converse error again - A TV can’t turn on if it’s not plugged in. Therefore, if the TV can’t turn on, it’s not plugged in. The TV could be broken, there could be a power cut, etc.
You’re saying that the United States supports providing arms to Taiwan and the United States supports Taiwan’s territorial claims. Therefore, by supporting providing arms to Taiwan, that means I support Taiwan’s territorial claims.
No. I don’t. So I don’t have to defend their territorial claims. I am sorry if that makes it difficult for you to argue your preferred argument with me, but you’ll just have to engage with my argument on its own terms, not on the ones you imagined.
Article about US provocating a war with China and violating their One-China principle
"So we should just appease China or what?"
“If anything, you appease Taiwan by opposing China”
“No, I don’t, what do you mean, I have a 4D chess move on this, it is nuanced”
Lmao you stand for absolutely nothing. Saying let China exercising their right for their sovereign territory is appeasement is bs, a Western-centric point of view, and China’s claims are less and would result in more peace, as shown by my map above. Only thing you could attack was my sarcasm. Lmao, what a lib
I have to say that you are wearing my patience very thin. I have addressed your arguments quite directly, respectfully and tried to encourage understanding, but you’re just continuing to hurl insults. Are you just trolling or are you so steeped in toxic internet culture that you can’t imagine a discussion without insulting your interlocutor?
We both know that Taiwan would stand no fucking chance if it was invaded. You’re basically saying, “if anything, you appease the Sudetenland by opposing Nazi Germany”.
Anyways, I’m done with this argument, I have proven you wrong countless times now and you just keep pushing me to defend a position that I do not hold and then you’re just getting mad about it. I wouldn’t be arguing with you if I didn’t stand for anything, would I? I support peaceful coexistence, reconciliation and the end of capitalism.
I guess you’re like an anarchist whose talking points just happend to align with the US department. I proved my case that the “appeasement” of China is the lesser “evil”, and there is nothing that they demand that is crazy and actually would result to more peace than even Taiwan’s constitution, which was the point of the map.
I have to say that you are wearing my patience very thin.
I don’t think you have proved that case at all. How is increasing the likelihood of an invasion of Taiwan the lesser evil, pray tell?
Who and why would anybody invade them? The elections are in January, the pro-mainland politicians will win, if one followed their general public opinion in the slightest, and will stop buying weapons from the US and work towards a solution to join like an autonomous region. The only difference? The claims above will disappear, and they will continue calling Taiwan a region like they do now.
The only way they will get invaded if the US creates a color revolution before January, keep this ROC alive with all it’s claims, and if you read the article, will increase their military presence on and around the island. In case of a successful provocation, they will throw Koreans and Japanese as well into the meatgrinder.
No, but if it weren’t for Western provocations that would never have been on the table. What do you think giving weapons to Taiwan does? China will not tolerate an arms buildup in Taiwain, it will attack as a result. That’s not good and I don’t support it, but that’s the material reality that you refuse to accept.
If the Taiwanese state would never capitulate and reintegrate peacefully with the CCP state, which is their claim, then wouldn’t that make an invasion of Taiwan inevitable, regardless of weapons?
Assume that it wouldn’t, though - I could just as easily say “with the right incentives, the United States could elect a communist president and transition to a people’s republic”, so let’s take them at their word that never means never and go from there, shall we?
I definitely answered your hypothetical? If the Taiwanese state would never capitulate and reintegrate peacefully with the rest of China, then China could peacefully try and fail to reintegrate for a million billion years. That’s it. Nothing else has to happen.
I think your argument is dumb, but that definitely addresses it.
Oh, my apologies, you’re quite right, I initially misread your message, sorry about that - thank you for your answer and I appreciate your consistency. I appreciate you arguing in good faith and I understand your position.
I disagree with you, I think you have an altogether a bit too optimistic perspective of the CCP, but I understand why you would be inclined to feel that way.
My point is, I think it’s pretty clear that Taiwan stands no chance whatsoever in a hot conflict with the Red Army - I hope that’s something that we agree on. I am sure that Taiwan is also very aware of that fact.
So what threat is posed by providing conventional munitions to Taiwan? If they were used in aggression, they would guarantee their own demise. Do you really think that they would be so desperate to strike a meaningless blow against the CCP that they would trade everything to accomplish that?
If so, why would these weapons change anything? They could have sacrificed everything for a single meaningless act of violence long before now. It’s not like Taiwan is being supplied with nuclear weapons, is it?
Providing Taiwan with conventional weaponry only accomplishes one thing: making an invasion of Taiwan less compelling.
Taiwan stands no chance right now, but how many billions of dollars in weapons would it take to change that calculus? Ukraine is fighting off Russia despite being in a much worse position because of the endless funnel of weaponry from the West, so it seems that if Taiwan can dig itself in and arm itself to the teeth it can become a legitimate threat. China will be forced to deal with having a hostile enemy as a neighbor, and even if Taiwan didn’t openly invade they could still become a serious regional threat to China and Chinese interests.
Think about the Korean peninsula for what the future might hold.
A threat to CCP interests it may be, but that wouldn’t justify a military invasion that would kill a shitload of people, would it? It would have to be sinking food or medicine shipments with coastal guns or something equally abhorrent to justify such an act. And again, that would absolutely be valid justification for an invasion, so they wouldn’t do it. How can you claim to be one of the good guys when you justify a military invasion and the deaths of thousands of innocents as “just a fact of how things will turn out”.
The United States is clearly evil and doesn’t have good intentions. I’m not an idiot. But we also need to be critical of the wrongdoings of the Chinese state.
There is a spectrum of options between “do nothing” and “go to war”. I would not support a US military intervention in a war between Taiwan and the CCP.
Clearly, the CCP is nowhere near on the scale of Nazi Germany, though when we talk of appeasement, it wasn’t quite at the levels of conquering all of Eastern Europe at the time, but I’m not going to split hairs over that - your point that I shouldn’t compare them is completely valid and fair.
I think continuing to keep things at a stalemate where neither country gets invaded is the best state of affairs for the time being, until something changes geopolitically. For that reason, I am not going to decry the supply of weapons to Taiwan, because that provides disincentive for an invasion of Taiwan, and makes military conflict less likely.
I appreciate your openness here. I think the PRC would also prefer peaceful engagement with the longer term goal of peaceful reincorporation, the trade ties they’ve cultivated in spite of US hostility I think lend credence to their sincerity there. In the big picture I just don’t think the region can sustain two governments that each claim sovereignty over the same areas, and given their historical cultural and economic ties I think reunification would be the outcome of a process of dialogue between them.
I agree, it seems that the political instability can’t last for too much longer, and I’m hoping for a peaceful resolution in whatever way that is. I have to admit that I would prefer a peaceful bipartisan result where each state relinquishes their claims on the other, but I have to admit that seems very unlikely and that your conclusion that they would most likely reunify is the most likely result.
I agree with your comment completely, stability and peace in the region is definitely not what the United States wants, long term. But that doesn’t mean that every single thing they do is wrong, and it doesn’t mean that every thing the US’s opponents do is right. We should take the actions and outcomes of these actors at face value, continue to advocate for peace and reconciliation and encourage more nuanced, balanced takes rather than hugely polarising positions. Thank you for engaging and considering what I wrote, we can build a better world if we keep building consensus, treating those with whom we disagree respectfully (assuming that they’re not being intolerant assholes!) and talking things through! <3
different from a hundred years ago and compared to a world without any nuclear weapons
I don’t see why, China is constrained by the same consequences of nuclear war, and has the same responsibility to avoid it, e.g. by relaxing claims that it owns and controls the entire South China Sea. Especially because I don’t think you’d say the same would be justified if the US claimed the entire Gulf of Mexico, or bearing sea, for example
Your second paragraph is a great point. Even taking whatever the U.S. State Department says about China at face value, comparing a nuclear standoff to 1930s Europe is ridiculous.
Also “appeasement” is a made up post-hoc explanation for the western Allies’ actions before WW2, blaming the supposed naivete or lack of spine of the leaders for simply allowing the Nazis to make expansionist moves uncontested, rather than it being an intentional policy to get out of their way and try to direct them eastwards against the Soviet Union.
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