Conversation ongoing over there, inviting anyone who wants to participate to please consider sharing their thoughts if they are willing to. If you wanna post in the original thread from your instance copy and paste the link into your instances search panel
As I said in the thread, if you aren’t comfortable posting feel free to DM me here or on matrix and I can post anonymously for you.
Many of the admins and mods on the threadiverse are cis men, and cis men with a history of reddit norms informing how they approach community building here. And in combination, that means that lots of the subtle stuff, the “just asking questions” guys, the “not all men” folk etc, end up shaping the threadiverse “overton window”. And that means that the “we like the status quo as it is” voices dominate the conversation and ensure that nothing changes.
The only way it will change is people who aren’t happy with the status quo actively start challenging it and moderating in a way that shifts it.
And I don’t see that happening en masse. There’s a reason beehaw is close to leaving, and that’s a large part of it. They tried to shift that status quo, they tried to challenge it, and they have very little external support in doing so :\
I’ve mentioned it other times, and I think it’s the answer to the question in this post:
“How can we make Lemmy a safer place for women?”
The same way that would make Beehaw want to stay!
IMHO, Beehaw is a litmus test for the ability of Lemmy itself to become a safer place for anyone.
the threadiverse “overton window”
I don’t think the threadiverse has a single Overton window, more like each instance has its own. The threadiverse allows those to interact (federate), or not (defederate). There is a lot of technical solutions missing for instances with partially overlapping Overton windows to interact, but I think it’s something that can be done, that should be done.
This is the flow-on effect of the association of STEM hobbies/toys/interests with males. The toy aisles in shops are better than they used to be, but toys marketed to boys are still heavily STEM labour-oriented stuff while the girls get a lot of Homemaker and Caregiver and aesthetically-driven stuff etc.
Even if you give your kids both, they still interact with other kids at school who primarily get the gender role toys, and make the gender/interest association. By the time they hit teenage years and are starting to engage with the internet, the learning and interest gap is there.
And when you do get girls who start exploring STEM stuff individually, they stumble into communities that are mostly male, everyone assumes everyone else is also male, and they very quickly feel like an outsider and a piece of meat. The constant mention of hentai as a "hobby" is one weird manifestation of this on Lemmy, and the amount of porn featuring heavily-edited thin young women. For anyone going to one of the main instances right now for the first time, there's a good chance that's a large portion of the feeds.
The endless transphobia is also a huge contributor right now, for cis or trans women. So many people commenting about how they define a woman to be from the male perspective. Written as though they're talking about a hypothetical group of others, instead of asking the women who are definitely already here for their lived experiences.
tl;dr huge multifaceted cultural problem that is unlikely to be solved by lemmy alone. If you want to help, try not to assume male defaults, post content and mod communities that women have historically engaged with online, and tell your boys and girls that anyone can play with the Lego and trucks and fashion dolls and cooking sets. Actually, do one better and play with your kids with the toys you didn't get as a child because of your genitals and explore something new together.
The constant mention of hentai as a “hobby” is one weird manifestation of this on Lemmy, and the amount of porn featuring heavily-edited thin young women. For anyone going to one of the main instances right now for the first time, there’s a good chance that’s a large portion of the feeds.
Calling sexual preferences a “hobby” is weird AF… but I wanted to point out that the “feeds”, as in the “All” of any instance that’s federating with Lemmynsfw or similar, is likely going to be full of porn… not because the instance itself is full of porn, but because it’s a huge fail on Lemmy’s part to make a feed which is a bundle of all subscribed communities by even a single user on the instance, so if anyone subscribes to porn, it goes straight to “All”.
This is true, and ultimately I think it captures the problems with all social interaction including this topic. How do we determine what is acceptable or even welcoming behaviour/content? Frequently by majority. And if the majority has started heavily skewed to one demographic, then anyone coming in afterwards starts as an outsider in some way. And if the tools are built by a skewed majority, the tools will fix what the skewed majority considers important.
I have no solutions for this, I'm just thinking out loud and you got me on this path. Sorry for the notification!
Yes, of course, but this is the beauty of federated systems running on open source platforms, isn’t it? No matter the bias, both the tooling can be changed, and instances with a different bias can be set up. There is always going to be a bias, but there is no lock-in to a single one.
In this particular case, there are some possible technical solutions:
The simplest one, would be to just allow instance admins pick which communities they wish to feature in their instance’s “All” feed. Not an “all as controlled by users”, but an “all as controlled by admins” (this in itself is a “curious” bias introduced by the upstream developers, given their political views… but let’s not delve into that)
A more advanced solution, but equally desirable, would be adding support for custom feeds (see: multireddits, Twitter timelines, Mastodon), with “All” being just one of them that happened to be controlled and promoted by the instance’s admin, configurable through the same interface as any other.
It may not be possible, or even desirable, to remove all bias, but it can be left to the user to pick which one they like more.
(And don’t worry, I’m also thinking out loud… since right now I’m unable to get hands-on to adding any of these options, and it’s eating me alive 😅)
Even if you give your kids both, they still interact with other kids at school who primarily get the gender role toys, and make the gender/interest association. By the time they hit teenage years and are starting to engage with the internet, the learning and interest gap is there.
I’m genuinely hoping that things will be better for my children, through some active management of the environment/exposure that my kids see, especially by fostering and highlighting examples they can learn from. I’m hoping that the early exposure will provide some level of inoculation against the worst of the worst cultural gender norms. There are a number of women engineers and programmers in our family, and my wife has a ton more athletic accolades/credentials than I do. So my daughter associates her soccer league with following in her mom’s footsteps, and knows that science and computers are associated with her aunts.
As the dad, I do almost all the cooking in my home, and any activity in the kitchen is associated more with me than with their mom. My daughter has a play kitchen but she also tends to come to me to be the person to show her how to play restaurant (not sure if I’m muddling the message by implicitly leaning into the male stereotype for professional cooking, rather than the female stereotype for at-home cooking).
Of course, there are plenty of examples of people doing things more traditionally associated with their own gender, but I’m hoping that the more chaotic distribution weakens the willingness to internalize stereotypes.
So I am somewhat optimistic, somewhat hopeful, that these Gen Alpha kids will actually have plenty more counterexamples diluting the force and effect of those societal gender norms, compared to what we experienced as Millennials.
It's definitely slowly improving, but a walk through the toy section of my store has still saddened me on occasion. And I live somewhere that would be globally considered generally "socially progressive".
but I’m hoping that the more chaotic distribution weakens the willingness to internalize stereotypes
It will, but it's also going to be pretty obvious to them after a while that the girls at school always play dress-ups with dolls at lunchtime while the boys are playing with toy cars and trucks. Kids start really getting the hang of categories, associations and social cues with language development from around age 3 and up.
They especially will notice when one kid (or worse, adult) says "you can't play with that/them, that's for <other binary gender>!" Or "I'm not going to do <action>, that's for <other binary gender>s!". Then they have to try to figure out what makes their family so different and why they aren't like others, which can lead to some interesting hypotheses as a young child.
I vividly remember some boys objecting to singing in class at school when I was very young (6?) because singing was for girls. The teacher asked them what they thought about the most famous male singer of the time, and they uncomfortably shuffled around and grumbled as a response. It was clearly conflicting information for them, and I think it might have been the first time I encountered someone openly challenging gender expectations.
I’ve been seeing it in fashion, too, with children’s clothes not being as clearly gendered. There’s the whole muted colors/beige trend that’s easy to make fun of, but looking closer also reveals quite a bit more undermining gender norms in clothes. My daughter wears a lot of dresses (obviously a girly clothing item) with things that are traditionally associated with boys: rocket ships, robots, dinosaurs, heavy construction equipment like dump trucks and excavators, etc. I happen to have a lot of men’s clothes that use floral prints or similar design elements, and my toddler son has some of those shirts, too.
I know I have a long road ahead of me on parenting through how to navigate societal gender norms (or even other norms that don’t always make sense), but I remain hopeful and optimistic that the environment will be relatively kind and will provide plenty of role models of all types to work with, and draw lessons/examples from.
I’m not going to win every fight, of course, but I’d like to think I’ll be able to choose my battles and at least provide some guidance in the right direction, and shield my kids from the worst of the worst examples.
This is unfortunately an extremely pervasive problem on the internet. I think we’re making a lot of headway in recent years, but unfortunately you’ll still find a lot of fragility online. It’s entirely unsurprising to me that the thread was quickly populated with a fragile male voice (how dare you exclude men, that’s sexist they proclaim, when you explicitly don’t exclude them 🙄). It’s unfortunately not something you can solve as it’s a cultural issue. The best you can do is curate a space which is heavily moderated and one in which fragility which is implicitly misogynistic or derailing is not tolerated. Asking for this feedback without making it explicitly clear that fragility won’t be tolerated will just allow a thread to be populated with fragility, as many people with fragility problems are hyper-online and get emotional support through validation in that context.
Allowing a space to be populated early with this voice discourages engagement for your intended audience. I’ve seen this happen time and time again on the internet when people ask for input from only for people to chime in some characteristic with “I’m not that characteristic, but…” Even when it’s not fragility, these people often end up make the space not welcoming to those which the space was intended for simply by their insistence to colonize the space.
The best you can do is curate a space which is heavily moderated and one in which fragility which is implicitly misogynistic or derailing is not tolerated.
Yes, exactly this! And that is the crucial difference between the microblog fediverse and the threadiverse in my opinion. Micro fediverse instances are more likely to heavily moderate on those axes compared to lemmy and kbin instances.
LW and kbin are disproportionately huge in the threadiverse (135k and 65k users respectively), instances like Beehaw (13k users) seem to work reasonably well, and that’s 6th place in user count, with the remaining 1200+ instances being smaller than that.
Then… what you’re saying is, “short format” content tends to be better moderated?
I guess that’s true, short is easier to moderate than long, less context to take into account.
Not sure how to apply that to long format content though, with threads, which extend the context even more… 🤔
Splitting content into short format blobs, like I’m doing here? But this seems contrary to the spirit of long format platforms.
Now that I’m thinking… 💡 maybe context tagging is the key? Short content tends to use hashtags to include context, while threaded long format platforms rely on following the thread back for the full context, and deeper nested discussions can easily veer off-topic.
Could that be the key difference? On-topic context-tagged content, is easier to moderate?
Then… maybe threaded long format platforms, could offer a way to split a thread apart, let an off-topic conversation follow its course in a separate “context container”?
I’m thinking, Matrix has introduced “threads” to help follow a back-and-forth exchange in what otherwise is a mix of comments in a channel.
What if Lemmy offered something similar but kind of opposite: the possibility to upgrade a comment thread into a post, maybe even one on a different community or instance?
So, instead of having to moderate comments off-topic to a post, or even off-spirit to a community, a topic could be kicked out to somewhere else it fits better?
Optionally, adding some feature for tagging comments, that could help mods follow topic changes?
Hm, @Gaywallet, would you say something like these could be useful features to act as funnels that could automatically redirect behaviors unwelcome in a community to somewhere else, or am I just rambling here?
(PS: this could also solve the question I had about following discussions on deleted posts, just boost the thread at whatever point from the same or another community, and done. Same for the issue of posting a Mastodon comment, just set it as the head of whatever post.)
I think I’m suggesting a different way of viewing and approaching the threadiverse/fediverse outside the Reddit/Twitter dichotomy, using the base features that allow both interpretations, but in a slightly different way.
Just wondered if any of it resonated with you, since your philosophy posts and such. Maybe it would be best shown with an example, but I can’t do that right now. I know you’re looking into alternatives.
Well, really the only way to do that is to try and fix the underlying problem, which is largely the ignorance and or malice of men IRL. That’s a societal issue though, and one that can’t be fixed by Lemmy on Lemmy.
The best method online is just good moderation and not to let their (harmful actors) disingenuous “but mah free speeeccchh” arguments work.
Moderation is difficult, saying as someone who did mod work on Reddit previously. There's enough misogynistic men that it's swimming against the current.
If it’s anything like menslib on Reddit then hurray! That’s one of maybe 3 subs I miss. It was well moderated and I think offered a truly positive contribution for many men.
Absolutely. Having people involved in this discussion directly and hearing their experiences on lemmy from a non-cis male perspective may help a lot with moderation tool development to gauge what safety concerns need to be addressed.
Yeah, the real problem is that it’s socially acceptable to be an asshole, but unacceptable to call it out. There needs to be far less tolerance for people insisting “no, you’re actually being cruel by telling me i did a misogyny” while at the same time allowing those who make honest mistakes or are really young to figure it out. I often feel like moderators are stuck doing the work of parenting vast swathes of people who choose not to grow up.
In addition to this, the Internet is (mostly) anonymous, you don’t know if you’re talking to an edgy 14 year old saying things to get a reaction or if it is someone who actually thinks those terrible things. The former needs compassion and teaching while the latter needs to face consequences of some kind. Neither of those should be the job of a random person moderating a forum.
i definitely think it’s possible. anything has the potential to grow and change if we choose to prioritize it.
“you are not entitled to nice”
a few months ago, on a different social media website, i posted something controversial (which IMO should not be controversial, anyways) and a friend made a very similar post. my friend was assumed to be a white man, while i was assumed to be a BIPOC woman. he received praise for his post and i did not see any criticisms of his views. my post was immediately criticized. various users told me that my drama wasn’t welcome here, i’m attention seeking, etc. when i asked one user why they were being so hostile to me, they responded with the quote above.
this was just one of the many demonstrations of misogyny that i’ve faced in the past 3 months online. it’s tiring as hell to deal with it.
I was always aware of the subtle misogyny on Reddit, however, it wasn’t until the end did I understand how truly bad it was. All it took was one post and 24 hours for me to see how awful some men can be.
I made a post to a collapse support subreddit detailing how I, a man, had been treated by other men in the workplace. I also explained how the men I have been surrounded by were sexist, racist, homophobic and intolerant to anything “unmanly.” I also went on to explain how the everyday treatment of women was not much different than how leaders and businessmen of the world acted. The only difference being the scale of which their actions affect other people. I also provided a few personal examples of how men manipulate women in every subtle way possible. My main motivation for making the post was finding out a former co-worker of mine was attempting to sext with a legal but considerably younger person we both knew. He is married and has two young girls with his wife.
The comments section was… interesting. I received many comments from women who had agreed with me, acknowledged what I said or expressed gratitude for simply being acknowledged from what I posted. Some men and wives of men also commented saying they experienced similar treatment in a bunch of different fields of work. Those comments made me satisfied with the post.
The other half of the comments all claimed I was promoting hate and that my post was hate speech. There was no middle ground or attempt at discussion. Worse, once they caught on that the subreddit moderator was a woman, they descended into her dm’s with hate filled messages, threats and declaring that she was supporting hate speech against men.
The harrasment was so much that my post was removed by the moderator but she did reach out to me beforehand. It was quite clear to me that my post had unintentionally affected her mental health. We had an understandable back and forth and I don’t blame her for taking an unfortunate step in trying to protect her community she worked so hard to build. A community she needed for herself as well.
The last thing she did say was going forward, she would be more heavy handed with the bans and to be less tolerant of intolerance.
Unfortunately, I quit reddit following the API changes so I don’t know how that subreddit or moderator has progressed over the past months.
I think stronger moderation for such vulnerable communities is a necessity. I also think being a moderator is also a nightmarish position to be in as well. I imagine seeing countless negative or awful comments would have a lingering effect on a moderators mental health. Even worse when it’s a passion project.
I have been trying to be more vocal on Lemmy when I see men attacking feminism and feminist groups. I also try to come from an empathetic and understanding place because matching hostility seems to end the comment thread in flames from my observations.
Unfortunately it seems my comments get ignored while women commenting under the same post will have their comments picked a part letter by letter from hostile men. It seems their goal is simply bullying women.
I wish there was a simpler way to filter out the hate and intolerance but when dealing with so many people, how do you even know where to start? Fighting complexity is a nightmare and people are fucking complex.
I appreciate what you’re doing and I’m sorry you had to deal with a bunch of hateful people. The way to fight it is by doing what you’re doing right now. No one person can solve a problem so large, but reach person that decides to roll up their sleeves and do something about it makes the problem just a little smaller. 💜
I rarely comment with this (Beehaw) handle, because so many men see an opposing point of view as an excuse to school me on being nice. It’s NOT MEAN to refuse to accept someone telling you what you meant. It’s NOT MEAN to have an opinion while female. And if it is mean, then I’m happy to be mean.
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