The bear vs man trend is digging up some tiresome and stressful thoughts

Firstly: I’m reasonably sure these women are just kvetching. I often say ‘I’d rather drink piss’ to express that I don’t like something. Obviously I’m not actually going to drink piss.

Secondly…I do agree it’s a bit much to compare men to a deadly 1200 pound predator. I would be a bit fed up of hearing that too if I were a guy.

Thirdly…that said…I understand WHY women say that even if it’s a bit ridiculous. I’ve had a male friend completely turn on a dime and send me rape threats while drunk. I pleaded and tried to reason with him for about 20 minutes before I completely snapped and threatened to do things to him with a hunting knife that I won’t detail because there’s no need to make people vomit. Only then did he back off and switch to making excuses and blaming his autism. It was terrifying because there was no reasoning with him. He LIKED that I was frightened and freaked out. It gave him a pleasurable power rush. The only reason he backed off was the threat of said hunting knife.

A bear isn’t malicious. A bear just wants to eat. A bear can be redirected or avoided. You can do things such as wear a bell or carry mace or put up an electric fence around a tent. A man isn’t necessarily malicious but IF he is…those precautions won’t do jack poopsies because he consciously knows the woman doesn’t want it and LIKES the act of stomping on boundaries.

inb4_FoundTheVegan,
@inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world avatar

I’m reasonably sure these women are just kvetching. I often say ‘I’d rather drink piss’ to express that I don’t like something. Obviously I’m not actually going to drink piss.

Nope. 100% serious. A guy who knows we are alone is way more dangerous than a bear. I’d rather drink piss AND be stuck in the woods with a bear than with a man. It’s not even remotely a question in my mind. Bear won’t hunt me down for pleasure, if we run in to each other than I might have a problem. But even then, most people survive bear attacks, but most women are killed by men.

A bear isn’t malicious.

True, and I have 0 trust that a random man away from others wouldn’t be.

Dkarma,

I love how women are allowed misandrist views like this with just no repercussions from society. The irony here is just hilarious.

Voran,

If you can’t comprehend nuance then please just go scream elsewhere.

inb4_FoundTheVegan, (edited )
@inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world avatar

You should like a “all lives matter” dork. Like, come the hell on and actually talk about the world we live instead of removing all context of the patriarchy, history and pretending your little vacuum void thought experiment is a fair compassion.

But whatever, any discussion of the realities of living as a women make you bad so you drag out your lil “misandrist” claim like it’s a legitimate concern. I’m sorry women complaining about our lack of safety makes you feel bad, but like, suck it up and fucking think about WHY SO MANY WOMEN are saying it.

eltimablo,

The way you feel about men is the way I feel about women since I've been sexually assaulted by several, but I'll bet you're gonna call me a piece of shit for that or say the assaults were justified because I'm a man.

If we're gonna take wide swings about other people's characters, be aware that you're not immune.

inb4_FoundTheVegan,
@inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world avatar

I’ll bet you’re gonna call me a piece of shit for that or say the assaults were justified because I’m a man.

What? No. Why would anyone ever do that? Sexual assault is always wrong regardless of gender. And I am truly sorry that happened to you. But it’s beyond disingenuous to pretend these are happening in equal amounts.. There is a reason so many women feel unsafe, because statiscally this is far more likely to happen to us. Just like a white person can be a victim of bigotry, but saying “all lives matter” misses the reality of racism for PoC.

But like, I’ve been sexually assaulted by men and women during my life too. Why are you bringing this up? I don’t see what either of our experiences have to do with your claim that women are just being sexist? So complaining the women talking about their statistical reality as “misandrst” is just a knee jerk reaction that misses the point.

eltimablo, (edited )

Why would anyone ever do that?

I dunno, ask my ex, the most outspoken feminist I ever met. Her exact response to me telling her that I'd been assaulted was "oh boo hoo." Shortly thereafter, she tried to spermjack me.

So then you recognize that my fear is unfounded, whether I can convince myself of that fact or not? Perhaps even pathologically so?

Also, ask any man you're close to (if you're able to get over the crushing fear of being near someone with a penis) how many times he's been assaulted. Then ask him why he's never reported it. If he had, he was either going to get called a pussy (mostly by women, in my experience) or he'd get laughed out of whatever police station he reported it at. Oh, or because he's afraid she'll flip the script and claim that he raped her, which people will actually listen to. Whoops, there goes several years of his life, all for the low, low price of getting sexually assaulted.

If you want to talk about unspoken realities, the male sexual assault rates are a particularly grim one.

inb4_FoundTheVegan, (edited )
@inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world avatar

(if you’re able to get over the crushing fear of being near someone with a penis)

God, the irony here is too much, I don’t like to bring this up but I just can’t contain myself.

Dude. I have a penis. I am a trans woman. Dig around in my post history if you want proof. But I have lived about 2 decades of my life presenting as a man, and then the last decade as a woman. I have been sexually assaulted multiple times in my life before and after transition.

If you want to talk about unspoken realities, the male sexual assault rates are a particularly grim one.

So I literally know EXACTLY what you are talking about. But what I’m trying to tell you, is that the amount of sexual harassment I have faced as a woman is exponentially more than the harassment I faced while looking like a boy/man. It’s not even close. When I presented “male”, I would often walk outside at night. Hell I used to work outside at anight job. That’s simply not something I can do as a girl, you know why? Because I have been literally chased multiple times by men “who just want to talk”, I’m lucky I was able to reach gated doors. I’ve had to pull out pepper spray men who have followed me to my car when I wouldn’t talk to them, I’ve had men follow me in to a movie theater, sit down next to me, and place their hand on my knee while smirking. These things that literally never happened before transition. The average man, is WILDLY more prone to harassing than the average woman.

I know better than most what each gender faces in terms of harassment. So if you wanna talk about our personal experience, let me tell you what the overwhelmingly common factor is? That men are straight out more violent, yes a few overly handsy women made me leave some parties when they wouldn’t take no for an answer, but that’s not really a compassion to the violence that men display when they have chased me in the last few years.

Calling women, trans and cis alike, misandrist for feeling unsafe around men, is absolute BS.

DontMakeMoreBabies,

I bet you have colorfully dyed hair.

eltimablo,

Attack the point, not the person.

inb4_FoundTheVegan,
@inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world avatar

…blonde? 😂 😂

Jesus you people and your stupid clichés, that’s not even relevant but like a seesaw you have to do your one and only predictable little reaction.

eltimablo,

Calling women, trans and cis alike, misandrist for feeling unsafe around men, is absolute BS.

Then you need to respect my fear of women equally, since I've been drugged multiple times, assaulted while sleeping, shamelessly groped in public in broad daylight, and so on. I have no interest in continuing your sad little game of one-downsmanship, but if my mindset is misogynist, then your similarly-derived, similarly-worded mindset is misandrist.

inb4_FoundTheVegan,
@inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world avatar

Then you need to respect my fear of women equally

Huh? Honestly I feel like you’ve sorta lost the plot. Where exactly did I say anything to the contrary? Scroll back up and look at the times I said assault was wrong regardless of gender and anyone that would mock you is also wrong.

You have a right to fear whoever you like. All I’m saying is that calling women misandry for having a safety fear around men is totally bunk. I have literally zero opinion about your own fears and absolutely would not call them sexist.

You’re literally accusing me of the exact thing you are doing.

eltimablo, (edited )

The plot here is that I recognize my fear as patently ridiculous and am working on myself to try and allay it, rather than shitting on all women everywhere. Being constantly told that I'm more terrifying than X, Y, or Z thing because of my sex is one of the main contributors to my exceedingly low self-esteem and suggests to me that society at large believes I deserve everything that's happened to me.

You know, kinda like "look what she was wearing" does for a rape survivor.

Men are human beings, just like you.

inb4_FoundTheVegan,
@inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world avatar

The plot here is that I recognize my fear as patently ridiculous and am working on myself to try and allay it, rather than shitting on all women everywhere.

Okay, but the difference here is that it is NOT patently ridiculous for women to be afraid of men. Like, you have to ignore statistics, history and all sorts of lived experiences to say this. My anecdotal memories aside, there is a reason SO MANY WOMEN are saying “the bear”. It’s not something that women need to work on, it’s not them just shitting on men, it’s the reality of how our patriarchal world works. Women aren’t just bitching about feeling like victims, we ARE.

You know, kinda like “look what she was wearing” does for a rape survivor.

I feel for you, I truly do. But I really need you to take a step outside of your perspective and understand why these “man vs bear” discussions are being had. I am truly sorry that a trait you were born with is making you feel attacked, but that is also the lived experience of women as well. Women did not chose to be statiscal targets of violence, but its the world we occupy.

And this entirely seperate how self esteem, and physical safety, just aren’t the same ballpark. This is just a different flavor of “Critical race theroy is racism because it makes white people feel bad”, which like, yeah white feelings (and yours) are valid and you are entitled to them. But that’s just the context of people talking about how our unfair world attacks different people differently. All of us have problems, but to say they are all equivalent is naive and selfish. Your “not all men” argument is preventing you from understanding the lived reality of women. Of COURSE not all men are rapists, but enough (backed by statics) are that its dangerous for women to NOT openly acknowledge and discuss it.

I think the better way to improve your self esteem, instead of coming to this thread to call women/me misandrist (aka “BLM are the REAL racist”) is to actually tend to your own strengths and know that if you are not a rapist. Then women aren’t talking about you. We don’t know each other, I was never talking about you. Coming to say “this is sexist against men because I am feeling targeted” does nothing to further the conversation, except trying to put your own fears in front of others. This isn’t the time or space for that! You should have that space absolutely! But I can’t help you with your self esteem, lashing out at me because you feel targeted by my fears, is making your self esteem the target. When you are literally putting forward your sense of worth to be the focus of conversation as opposed to the system of patriarchy, then of COURSE you self esteem is affected.

So maybe stop injecting yourself into the conversation and focus on things that actually improve your life? Because I really doubt coming to this thread upset and angry did anything productive for ya.

eltimablo,

If I were to say "I'd rather face down a bear than be near a black person," you'd rightfully call me a racist.

Because I really doubt coming to this thread upset and angry did anything productive for ya.

Nope, all it did was put me in contact with someone who wants to justify their own closed-minded bigotry by dismissing other people's lived experiences and further convince me that the world would be better off if I killed myself.

But fuck male fee fees, they're a myth anyway, right? There's no man that's safe to be around and society changes too slowly, so it's best for everyone that they should be quarantined or exterminated.

inb4_FoundTheVegan,
@inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world avatar

There’s no man that’s safe to be around

Your words. Not mine. I literally said the exact opposite SEVERAL TIMES.

bigotry by dismissing other people’s lived experiences

Go reread your first comment in this thread. You literally came here to dismiss. I’ve also told you that your fears are valid, so I don’t really see where you get off saying this.

and further convince me that the world would be better off if I killed myself.

Nope, and I am sorry you feel this way. The world is better with you in it. I survived my own suicide attempts a decade and my life is happier than I ever imagined. Please seek therapy, this isn’t something the I or the internet can help you with.

I did my best to make this a productive discussion, I really have. I’ve met your anger with nuance and repeated validation. But I don’t see how to proceed anymore. Please stop trying to invalidate womens lived experinces, and take your self esteem and self harm ideation to a professional.

eltimablo, (edited )

There was no chance of a productive discussion with you because you're fully convinced that your mindset is the only valid one. Why else would you so completely dismiss the views of the people that are being actively harmed by this shit? You didn't want a discussion, you just wanted me to stop causing you cognitive dissonance so you can keep telling yourself you're right.

You're a bigot in an academic's clothes. This whole conversation, your slavish devotion to "the statistics" have made you sound like far-right-wingers do when they talk about Black people. "10% of the population but they commit 35% of the crime so I'm right to be afraid of them."

The world is better with you in it.

That's not the sentiment you've been conveying by lumping me and billions of other innocent men in with the small percentage of us that are subhuman filth.

inb4_FoundTheVegan,
@inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world avatar

Why else would you so completely dismiss the views of the people that are being actively harmed by this shit?

Because it does not match observable reality.

Sorry, but I’m blocking you now because this doesn’t seem healthy to engage with anymore. I’m sure you will take that as confirmation of me running away from “cognitive dissonance” but I can’t in good consciousness be the outlet for your outbursts about ideation.

Please seek better ways of improving your self esteem than finding threads to be angry in. It’s a form of self harm.

eltimablo,

Your "observable reality" is based on heavily skewed statistics and anecdotes.

Voran,

Im gonna be fair here and point out that I think he has a point: male on female sexual predation at least has some awareness and laws about it. Female on male is a hidden epidemic. Most countries don’t legally recognize that men can even be raped.

inb4_FoundTheVegan,
@inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world avatar

And I’ve countlessly agreed that it is a problem and that any man has the right to feel upset and/or scared about it. Including and especially him. I just don’t think that’s a good basis for saying women are inherently sexist if they are wary of being alone with a random man. His logic is based that since he feels the need to “work on getting over it” (his words), women should get over it in regards to men. It’s a false equivalency.

Without question the legal framework in a lot of countries is out of date and toxic masculinity traits that makes men uncomfortable with seeking help after assaults needs to be addressed. But that’s a very different situation from the reason women feel unsafe around men, a NOT AT ALL HIDDEN epidemic.

Voran,

Yea that much I agree with. I’m not going to ‘work on overcoming’ wariness of someone who is not only bigger and stronger than me but also more durable and faster and more coordinated and has a faster reaction time and even produces more adrenaline than I do.

Voran,

Imma be fair here and point out that female on male rape is massively under-reported and under-documented because of a wording issue. Rape in many countries is defined only as penetration of the victim. A woman forcing a man to penetrate her therefore doesn’t count no matter how obviously it was done against his will.

eltimablo,

Nah, that's working as intended according to the "bear>man" crowd.

athos77,

I’m reasonably sure these women are just kvetching.

I love how sooooo many men are just absolutely certain that sooooo many women are just completely wrong about their own feelings and instincts.

You're wrong. You are absolutely, completely, fucking wrong. We're not "just kvetching", we're serious. I would absolutely 100% prefer to be alone in the woods with a bear, than to be alone in the woods with a man.

This is one of the things that I find most infuriating about this whole hypothetical, the number of men who are absolutely convinced that a woman's very logical threat calculations is somehow "less". We're "just kvetching", we're "not thinking rationally", we're "reacting emotionally", we're "paranoid", etc etc etc.

STOP NEGATING WOMEN'S LIVED EXPERIENCES JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK YOU KNOW BETTER. YOU DON'T.

Fucking patronizing assholes.

blargerer,

I'm sympathetic to your feelings about how some men have responded to this in general, but Op is clearly a woman if you read the whole post.

inb4_FoundTheVegan,
@inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world avatar

👏👏👏

The dudes yelling at women picking the bear, are literally the reason we are picking the bear.

Voran,

I’m a woman. Take your fucking tantrum elsewhere. Maybe read my OP in which I talk about rape threats from a drunken 200 pound man.

Voran,

I really just wanted to get the point across that…there are simple things you can do to deter bears.

Whereas IF a man has malicious intent…there is jack shit that an electric fence or bear mace or a bell is going to do.

ivanafterall,
ivanafterall avatar

Bear mace and an electric fence will definitely stop an average man???

Voran,

I wouldn’t trust either of those things. He can step over a fence and an irritant spray to the eyes would probably just piss him off.

DahGangalang,

…I really think you need to experience mave before claiming it’d “just piss him off”.

Voran,

I agree that no I haven’t experienced mace but if someone is trying to rape me I want a bit more than an irritant spray.

Given the strength difference between a woman and even a short skinny man I feel I’d want to irreversibly annihilate him because if he gets up again I have zero chances.

DahGangalang,

I think you’d be surprised at how effective those sprays can be at disabling a person. It does require “proper application” (i.e. hitting them near the eyes/nose) but when it works it works very well.

That said, I 100% support women (women in particular, but people in general) getting trained on proper firearm handling and then doing daily carry. When my (prior Army) wife brought this theoretical situation to me, my first response was about how the hand gun she is set up with is far better suited to take down people and would probably do little damage to a bear (she got mad cause that’s apparently not the point, but I hope you get where I’m going).

The Gods created all people; Sam Colt made them equal.

Voran,

I absolutely agree and I wish Ireland had a second amendment. Situational awareness and a gun is the best equalizer.

amio,

This comments section. So much for this place being more civil than Reddit, lmfao

DessertStorms, (edited )
DessertStorms avatar

It's almost impressive how you're able to write out, so presumably understand, at least a couple of very good reasons why we would choose bear over man, while also completely missing the point and choosing to first frame the debate as "tiresome", "kvetching" (whining, to those unfamiliar), ridiculous, and worst - making men feel fed up, entirely prioritising and derailing the debate to how men feel (which is completely disconnected from reality, where their feelings, as well as rights and freedoms, are prioritised 99% of the time), when it's them being all of those negative things (tiresome, whiny, ridiculous, making women fed up) and also threatening, abusive, and violent in the first place that makes us want so desperately to avoid them.

Men are not the fucking victim here, I'm sick and fucking tired of them being frame as such.

If us picking bears over them hurts their fee-fees so much, perhaps they should consider why, and try to change, instead of repeating the exact behaviours that make us make that choice, and then blame us for being "tiresome" and insensitive.

eltimablo, (edited )

The fact that you lump every man in with the worst of society is disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself. Swap "men" with "black people" and see how it sounds.

We are people, not monsters.

Voran,

I didn’t derail anything. I gave a varied set of thoughts that had been bothering me. I don’t want to be around a bear either. There are more things you can do to repel it but I don’t want to be around a 1200 pound animal that doesn’t bother to kill its prey before eating. And the fact that you just breezed past my story about a 200 pound drunk man sending me fucking rape threats and only backed off after I sent him an extremely graphic rant full of death threats right back is a bit much. You act like I have no idea what it’s like being a woman.

SattaRIP,
SattaRIP avatar

I've not commented on this yet, but I feel like giving my piece now. I hope other men will listen. As a cis male I think women feeling that a bear is safer to be around than a random man is justified. I've heard enough horror stories... And I'd say I have enough emotional intelligence to tell women have heard or even experienced far more. None of this is to say men can't be treated the same, or that only men are perpetrators of violence, sexual or otherwise.

I had to unlesrn a lot of misogynistic beliefs, which involved getting over the self victimization of thinking misandry is at all comparable to misogyny, let alone equally bad.

Something men also fail to realize, I've noticed, is that patriarchy hurts them too, far more than feminism ever could. Patriarchy involves men reaching for an ideal version of themselves that doesn't exist. Every man ever will have qualities the rest of society might consider feminine. It could be something like being gay, being sensitive like myself, or even something as simple as not liking the same things other men do... I've seen the kinds of people who end up at the top of patriarchal hierarchies, we all have. Strong men dictators or dictator wannabes like Trump or Putin are who I'm thinking of. These men are so insecure about their masculinity they artificially elevate it, and they may be worshipped by the masses who think one person can and will solve all their problems... but in the end it's clear men elevated to this level are the most disgusting type of people, inside and out. Their place of power makes it so that when they fuck up, they receive no consequences. Others do instead.

In Iran where I grew up, I'd say patriarchy was stronger than here in North America, if such a thing can be measured as such. More than here, there the only emotions we were allowed to feel was: fear of our higher ups, anger towards those lower, and lust towards those lower but only kept secret. No compassion, empathy, etc. Nobody really believes the Islamic Republic's propaganda, not even their supporters. But that doesn't mean it has zero effect. Boys I grew up around were so quick to dismiss simple rules of consent as if it was nothing. Segregating men and women makes things extremely tense between them, to out it mildly. And that's nor getting into how queer folk are affected.

I could go on endlessly about this, but I feel satisfied for now. I'll wnd with saying that the men who are mad at women expressing how they feel, telling them they're wrong should, instead, direct that anger at men who'd make them feel that way.

inb4_FoundTheVegan,
@inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world avatar

Big time agree. A group that’s not talked about enough is the Men’s liberation movement from the 60s/70s, who were the ones to popularize the term “toxic masculinity”, referring to the unhealthy standards men grow up learning to emulate for fear of rejection or being mad fun of.

The majority of women are not telling men to repress, be aggreisve or not to report abuse. It’s other men who mock victims for being “a wuss”. It’s frustrating how a lot of men can recognize the stigma against any perceived vulnerability but not make the connection that it’s their father’s, brothers, friends and malr social figures (like Andrew tate) that are the ones enforcing that BS.

All people suffer under the patriarchy, women from forced submission and men from regression and unhealthy unobtainable standards. For your own sake dudes, at least direct your frustration at the true source.

Donjuanme,

Hadn’t heard of this until just now…

I’m a cis het white guy.

I think 99% of the time a random guy is safe, there’s a lot of guys out there, maybe I have tinted glasses, I’ll say 75% of the time a random guy is safe, maybe I’m sheltered in my California comfort, 50% of the time a random guy is safe.

I wouldn’t think myself safe in more than 2% of encounters with a bear, no sarcasm. Take a walk in a park in Alaska, it doesn’t matter how many people are around you’re always questioning every noise.

And for that comparison I understand survivors concerns with random people, but bears are not a comparable thing in Bear country (much like I haven’t been in vulnerable women’s shoes) (maybe sun bears or small black bears… Not the big ones…)

inb4_FoundTheVegan,
@inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world avatar

I think 99% of the time a random guy is safe, there’s a lot of guys out there, maybe I have tinted glasses

Yes. YES YOU DO. 99% of men are not a threat TO YOU. But how could you know any different?

To women though? It’s way way WAY higher. For me it’s not even a question between bear or man. Men are the reason I am scared to walk by myself at night.

Like, just go by the numbers if you are skeptical

vpc.org/…/nearly-1800-women-murdered-by-men-in-on…

animal-world.com/bear-attack-statistics/

You need to step out of your own perspective and really understand the world that women are forced to live in before answering this question. I can respect that you think you might be biased, but I can not stress enough how “biased” is an understatement.

Chocrates,

Yes. YES YOU DO. 99% of men are not a threat TO YOU. But how could you know any different.

This is something that I am embarrassed but took me 30 years to… Notice? I don’t want to say understand because I don’t think I will truly be able too.

It took getting married and my ex wife being sexually assaulted TWICE. WTF is wrong with us.

FireTower,
@FireTower@lemmy.world avatar

For further reading for anyone interested:

bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv20sst.pdf

Lemminary, (edited )

99% of men are not a threat TO YOU

Right?? Even I as a small gay man know that cis straight men are not to be trusted. They don’t have to threaten me with sexual violence, but I know for a fact that when they mutter shit about me, they have the very real possibility of trying it.

Some of us are, in a very palpable sense, walking in the woods in Bear Country constantly. But he doesn’t see it because it’s not him in our shoes. And so the same defensive rhetoric comes out on Lemmy and Reddit and all the other bullshit social media every single time. Because it’s not them living next door to a delinquent who has publicly yelled obscenities and threats at them directly for existing.

E: Downvote all you want if you feel identified. It’s not gonna change what we live through.

aido,
@aido@lemmy.world avatar

Wait, the FBI reports nearly 14k homicides in the US in 2019 and only 1.8k were a man killing a woman? That’s a smaller proportion than I expected.

I got the FBI data here, it only breaks things down by method: ucr.fbi.gov/…/expanded-homicide-data-table-8.xls

Seleni,

Well, if we’re being pedantic you could check to see how many of those homicides were being committed by men vs women…

But also, it’s isn’t just murder that makes women fear men. It’s harassment. It’s rape.

aido,
@aido@lemmy.world avatar

I’m sure those numbers are much higher, I just felt weird looking at the linked study because it felt unnaturally void of context and when I found the context it made the study feel incredibly disingenuous.

I was trying to look up statistics on how many perpetrators of homicides, assault, etc. there were but I didn’t manage to find anything. I was curious to what degree it was a “loud minority” kind of situation, which is the frame my brain goes into when I consider this hypothetical.

Seleni,

According to the CDC, as of 2010 nearly one in five women in the US has been raped. And 1 in 6 have been stalked.

That’s one heck of a loud minority, just saying.

aido,
@aido@lemmy.world avatar

Yes

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