Akin to the Warsaw uprising. People facing extermination rising up hoping to avert ultimate doom at the hands of uncaring monsters.
They knew how outmatched they were, but the alternative is submitting to genocide. Think about the desperation required to take this nearly hopeless fight. The sheer suffering.
Maybe its not the “jews” and the “palestanians” but the israeli government and hamas thats causing the problem. Also israel is a huge weapons testing facility for the us basically.
I have to think Bernie is smart enough to understand this, but American politics requires countless of these sorts of genuflections from those who want to be taken “seriously” by it. Can’t talk about the Cubann blockade without being all “of course their highly popular democratically elected government is evil, but”, etc etc.
They do sadly. The media has repeated Israeli lies again and again even when provided with no proof of their claims. The whole baby beheading thing got spread so much that Joe Biden ended up calling it out and later clarified that they don’t have proof as well.
And Reddit has been banning pro Palestine subs and users from yesterday.
I sincerely doubt they’re banning “pro-palestine” subs and users and are banning the ones supporting Hamas and mindless violence. Reddit is far more anti-zionist than any other social media, for example.
Not to say that the Israeli propaganda machine isn’t running, but there is definitely a portion of antisemitic backing for Hamas (not Palestine) that’s going to get places banned for not following reddit’s sitewide rules about hate (just have to use some dogwhistles to get around it tho).
Assuming that’s referring to hexbear, you’re aware that thousands doesn’t make something widely used right? Like there’s more people than that on just the NYC subreddit lmao.
“Both sides should just stop being mean to each other” is in this case the blandest, most useless take you could possibly have. It does nothing for nobody, it’s just saying something for the sake of saying it.
What are his positions on how to resolve this thing? What should the Palestinians get in his opinion?
Nice job not responding to the well written comment that absolutely eviscerated your ‘point’ hours ago and instead responding to this one where you wouldn’t actually have to acknowledge your cluelessness abt the situation.
I know the rawness of such a vicious terrorist attack will cloud judgment and leave the Israelis furious and wanting blood. For any American who fails to understand this, imagine if 9/11 had been caused by a group of people living in a cordoned off part of New Mexico. We would have carpet bombed the ever loving fuck out of it and killed the majority of the people there. The only reason we didn’t have a swift full force military response after 9/11 is because we had to get assets to the region which took time.
I’ve watched these videos of Israel dropping buildings left and right. I certainly hope these are confirmed terrorist targets but there’s just a whole lot of them and I suspect many of them have civilians inside. I know we are currently in the ‘Israel can do no wrong and we stand by them’ phase but where is the line drawn? Does this terrorist attack justify genocide? Im not inclined to believe so. But I also know after 9/11 I wouldn’t have given a shit if we did genocide an entire group if they were responsible. I would have been wrong, but my point is we lived through that seething rage ourselves and it took us years to collectively calm ourselves.
I don’t know what the answer is. Obviously they have to respond. But what’s the line you draw? It would not surprise me if in a few months the opinions of the global public once again shift back to horror and condemnation of Israel as the reality of this response is made public.
“I supported genocidal rage, tried to psychologize and implicitly justify other ways to genocide, gladly accept and repeat the racist language of double standards that allows Westerners to pretend they don’t already support apartheid and genocide, but don’t you dare call me a Nazi.”
And now @RaincoatsGeorge claims to have a job involving enjoying atrocities. Totally not craving genocide like when he was 14. Not anymore. Now so much more cool calm and collected like in his favorite Prestige TV shows and video games.
I’m curious, what exactly gives a sense of OP being an Israel supporter? I read the post as good pondering about the reasoning for Israel’s reactions and some good analogy for US readers through the 9/11 attacks and reactions for it.
It’s pretty much required that a nation will either defend themselves or even counterattack heavily if someone attacks them or otherwise they won’t stay independent very long (see Ukraine currently or Europe in 1930-1940s) and understanding that doesn’t make someone automatically a supporter of either side. Now, it’s a good thing to discuss about the size of Israel’s reaction because completely destroying another country over a terrorist attack is not going to end up well either. This is something where the 9/11 comparison works well in my mind.
But I also know after 9/11 I wouldn’t have given a shit if we did genocide an entire group if they were responsible.
Wtf.
You assholes DID do that, 3 million dead and millions more refugees.
If the people did 9/11 were Indigenous Americans living in an open air prison beside New York city, facing regular bombings, food shortages, lack of clean water and electricity and a constant encroachment upon their land, yeah little sympathy when they kill a couple settlers for once.
You know the US does have groups of people cordoned off in New Mexico? We have similar situations all over the US. They’re called Indian Reservations and we did regularly massacre the people that lived there (Wounded Knee being the most famous example).
But at least by 1924 we gave Native Americans citizenship and therefore the right of free movement. It only took about 150 years but they at least got basic rights eventually, even if the discrimination and violence continues.
Israel can’t even meet the standards of decency that America, a continuously not-decent country figured out for itself before Israel even existed.
Again, you’re trying to shadow box with a boogey man that doesn’t exist. I’m just sitting here watching you write about how you’re a dumbass.
Cool I guess.
You know I spent ten years wasting my time clowning on trolls on Reddit. You get good at it, as sad as that is to write. There have only been a handful of people on lemmy that have even tried to do all of that here with me.
Do you think that we got addicted to it? I’m honestly just assuming you’re also from Reddit. Who knows maybe you communicate primarily by typewriter…
Again, you’re trying to shadow box with a boogey man that doesn’t exist.
Smug liberals try to disagree with people without ableistic insults challenge. Difficulty level: “you’re trying to shadow box with a boogey man that doesn’t exist.” smuglord
Also, if you’re going to say cryptofascist shit about how you craved genocide and also believed that everyone craved genocide just like you did, therefore those cravings were cool and good and somehow justified, just fuck off with that.
I’m just sitting here watching you write about how you’re a dumbass. Cool I guess.
So? You didn’t do anything different or exceptional here. You’ve done nothing off-script yet and calling out me pointing out your shitty takes doesn’t make your takes any less shitty.
Hilarious. Lol.
You’re so redundant and pretentious that I may as well post this again because that’s all you’re doing and this is all you deserve.
I think one of the main lessons from Nazi Germany (and various old psychological experiments), is that everyday, average, people are capable of horrifying acts. This is especially true for kids who haven’t fully developed empathy yet (this is one reason child soldiers are used, gangs are mostly children, etc).
I was around the same age as the poster when 9/11 happened, and had the same thoughts, and many of the kids I knew had the same thoughts as well. I lived in the “country” outside of an all-white, pretty racist, very small town and had christian fundamentalist parents; which probably shaped my views when I was a child. I remember once in school, we had to do a presentations, and one group of kids did a presentation about turning Afghanistan to glass; which got laughs and no reprimands from the teacher.
The NAFO lanyard liberals are such bloodsoaked clowns that I actually can believe they’d hire and put trust into a smirking tryhard edgelord like @RaincoatsGeorge .
I think my favorite is the guy who has responded to everything I’ve said like 8 times. You guys are great.
Why do you want to know? So you can try and cancel me? Call my boss, or at least what you think is my boss and tell them about me? I mean go nuts. Show them what I’ve said. The thing that makes this all so unbearable for people like you is that I’m the same here as I am in person.
Do you think I am like you? Pretending to be this or that and then sneaking home to don some persona on the internet? It’s embarrassing. I don’t say one fucking word if I don’t mean it. That’s in person, that’s online. It means I don’t have to keep track of all the little half truths you tell, the silly little story you have invented.
I’m an asshole. You’re right about that. But there isn’t anything you can do about that. You know why? Because I made sure I was really Fucking good at something that people like you couldn’t stomach. So there will always be another job for me.
It affords me the liberty to tell the truth. To piss off little shit dicks such as yourself. If you do not like that, too Fucking bad.
Unprompted, you started whining about “cancel culture.” You’re showing your whole ass here.
Do you think I am like you?
We would be bloodthirsty neoliberals, congratulating ourselves on our maturity while expecting praise and awe for our super secret hush hush colonial adventurism jobs if we were like you.
I’m an asshole.
No shit. Unlike what le ironic internet communities otherwise believe, saying you are an asshole doesn’t give you points for internet bravery. You’re an asshole and others here already know and see that.
To piss off little shit dicks such as yourself. If you do not like that, too Fucking bad.
I’m convinced you’re outright LARPing your favorite Prestige TV character(s) with lines like that. cringe
Did you really reply again. And break it all down… Again…
You know what’s funny is memmy shits the bed with imbedded pictures so all your little memes are just url strings with a thumbnail. I guess hopefully other people are enjoying them??
I’ll be around tomorrow and you can keep trying. One time I went back and forth with a guy for 8 hours straight. The only thing I can guarantee out of all of this is that we will both lose no matter what you do. And that is by design.
You’re getting that mad about my replies, and you keep replying.
The difference here is you claim to have a super secret ultra shadow black ops job like in your favorite Prestige TV shows and video games, and if you do and I actually can believe they’d hire someone like you (because they are bloodthirsty clowns), the longer you’re here, the less you’re doing your actual job.
So I’ll be here a while. Replying to you. Watching you claim how “hilarious” everything is while your whole ass is showing and you’re getting more and more mad that the people you hate on the internet aren’t respecting you or holding you in awe.
Either you’re lying about your bloodsoaked colonialist hatchetman job, or you’re not. In the latter case, the longer you’re replying here, desperately seeking validation, the less you’re doing your bloodsoaked colonialist hatchetman job. So that’s good.
You poor thing. Big tough Vincent AdultMan wants respeeeeeect. headpat
I also know after 9/11 I wouldn’t have given a shit if we did genocide an entire group if they were responsible.
I was in my early 20s. I remember that day well. I was caught up in the fear and frenzy of everyone around me as an impressionable young liberal… and I still didn’t wish genocide on anyone.
Did uh, you not live through the same timeline I did? I was 14. I had the mental faculties one would expect from a 14 year old. I probably could have been calmed down and shown the right way of things. But I wasn’t. Because Americans weren’t. The initial response to the attack was shock sorrow and fury. And revenge was a common theme that was happily pushed by literally everyone. That’s why we don’t remember the people who pushed for war. We remember the few people who spoke out against it, even though it cost them their careers in many cases.
Americans can handle the shock and sorrow part of the equation. Americans have always struggled with the last one. We don’t forgive a lot of things. And the fury we can exact on our enemies is unrivaled. We conquered the world, in so many words, when they blew up our boats in the 40s. Go back and we exacted bitter revenge on indigenous people whenever they ambushed our settlers.
What about what I said is unamerican? Honestly the question is what liberal vault did you emerge from that separated you from our timeline?
Don’t confuse me speaking about reality as justifying it. I don’t justify my actions or those who influenced me. It was wrong. And I had to learn that the hard way growing up. But i am speaking about it as it was. You don’t get to change the past, you can only be honest about it and work to correct it when it comes around again.
The Israelis will commit the war crimes we only wish we could have this early after the attack. They will invade and end up fucked in a long term occupation with no real goal but a lot of house to house fighting and innocent civilians dead. Shit who does that sound like.
They’ll only succeed in giving birth to the next generation of even more extreme terrorists. The Middle East is just that much more unstable. We drone on towards unending chaos.
It’s turning out that the golden years of the 50s through tbe 2010s were the high water mark of human civilization. And we spent it bickering and smoking cigarettes.
Biologically, I’m sure that changed. Otherwise, not so much. I think the “adult in the room” emotionally peaked there before being entrusted with the keys to power and being the adult in the room making the hard decisions and getting shit done. fedposting
I don’t think this is going to be a pleasant read if you’re already starting with a Reddit-tier opener like that.
I read the rest. You’re not making a very good case for speaking for everyone, then or now, when you aren’t just discrediting my own lived experience being barely older than you were at the same time but also posting your rage filled nonsense in the other reply chain.
I was waiting for you to post what I said broken into parts where you respond to everything separately.
First off you outed yourself. Hilarious. Second of all. Oh nevermind there isn’t a second part.
Lol.
Being a condescending asshole while trying to speak for an entire population about how wishing for mass murder was cool and good actually instead of at the least learning something from that instead of trying to rationalize it away is apparently beyond you.
And we spent it bickering and smoking cigarettes. Sick.
I’m starting to doubt if you’re even able to comprehend that other people exist with different perspectives and outlooks than you do. Solipsism definitely fits the arrogance you’ve presented in your replies so far.
You have such an important bloodsoaked neoliberal colonial job that you’re replying to each of those replies. Maybe if it means you’re too distracted to drone strike another hospital for a few more hours, I’m pleased to keep it up.
By all means, keep telling us about your Vincent AdultMan tough guy colonialism job.
If you’re going to give internet tough guy speeches, at least wear matching footwear so you don’t trip over your own passive aggressive sarcastic putdowns. The two flavors of internet tryhard don’t mix well.
I know we are currently in the ___ phase but where is the line drawn? Does this ___ justify genocide? Im not inclined to believe so.
The line is genocide, if nothing else. The blanks don’t matter. Your position on genocide should be 110% against it, the extra 10% (ideally more) being proactive measures to fight fascism to ensure genocide never happens again in history.
He denounced specific parts of the attack. The section of international law that explicitly allows violent resistance to a military occupation or blockade doesn’t exempt the resistors from the rest of international law. The IDF/Israel and Hamas have the same obligations under international law(s).
Yeah last I checked shooting up music festivals isn’t tho…
Every Hamas supporter seems to have this same cognitive dissonance.
Is Israel genocidal? Absolutely
Is hamas genocidal? Absolutely
Stop supporting genocide and claiming to be a leftist. You’re really just an extremist pos.
Yes, Israel has the advantage. No, that doesn’t make terrorism any less bad.
Stand with Palestine but denounce Hamas at every single opportunity, just as we should denounce the genocidal government of Israel at every opportunity.
serious question - if Jews in a ghetto during WW2 got together some weapons, revolted, left the ghetto and killed a bunch of German civilians partying right outside the ghetto, would you call it “genocidal” and “terrorism” and say “yes, while Nazi Germany is bad, so are these Jews who committed terrorism”?
Yeah, I’m pretty sure I would. Mindless violence is never a good thing…
Most German citizens were not nazis, just as most Israeli citizens aren’t in favor of genocide. A powerful and motivated political minority is a scary thing indeed, kinda like Repubs in the US, or the current leaders of Israel, or Hamas, or the countless far-right Renaissances happening across Europe rn. Need I go on?
Again, I don’t disagree that Israel is genocidal. That doesn’t mean mindless violence and genocide in return are anywhere near the answer. There’s a reason MLK would leave cities if protesting turned into rioting. Even when you have the right answers, turning to violence isn’t a solution.
Does it suck to take the high road all the time? Yeah. Do you have to do it to not fall to the same level as the opponents? Also yes.
Sitting on the side lines whining about “both sides bad!” during the literal Holocaust is not “taking the high road.” It’s being an unprincipled coward.
And MLK had pretty scathing words for people like you.
It’s almost like Hamas doesn’t actually represent Palestine and won the election by a 40% plurality in the mid 2000s and haven’t run an election since then. It’s almost like this little thing called nuance exists. It’s almost like I can denounce Hamas while also denouncing the IDF without it being anything related to “all sides bad”.
It’s almost like this little thing called nuance exists.
It’s almost like It’s almost like It’s almost like It’s almost like It’s almost like It’s almost like It’s almost like It’s almost like It’s almost like It’s almost like It’s almost like It’s almost like
No thanks I’ll just keep winning arguments against the deluded fools that can’t accept anything outside their echo chamber as valid and moved to hexbear bc of it.
Yeah I don’t really mind arguing with people calling for mindless violence. I do think it’s important to argue with them, regardless of the situation in Palestine, (which I have exactly zero way of affecting either positively or negatively.)
Your fake outrage and inability to think about the larger picture is cute.
it doesn’t suck for you to take the high road, you’re sitting in the west living a comfortable life, it’s super easy for you to ‘condemn’ both sides and go on with your day. what are Gazans supposed to do? they’re living in hell on earth, and the entire world had turned their backs on them.
peacefully protest? they’ve tried that
try to get the word out about how bad their situation is? they’ve tried that
what should they have done instead? just do nothing and let Israel keep building settlements and murdering them and commit a slow genocide? I can’t blame them for violently struggling in whatever means possible. even under international law, occupied populations have the right to engage in armed struggle. it sucks that it came to this, but Israel is responsible for every death that happens because they want to commit genocide against the native population rather than peacefully coexist.
“First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can’t agree with your methods of direct action;” who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a “more convenient season.”
Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.”
Not comparable. The white moderates that King was talking about here intended for time to do the work of social change. I’m not saying Palestinians should just wait around and get genocided, just that acts of violence against civilians aren’t going to do anything meaningful except lead to more loss of life.
Try some reading comprehension on for size btw. In the first sentence of the comment you replied to I say that occupied peoples absolutely have the right to struggle against their oppressor, just not the right to murder civilians indiscriminately.
Saying that Palestinian resistance is only legitimate if it meets the standard of perfect moral purity is exactly saying they should wait around and get genocided.
And you know what? They are getting genocided, right now, at this moment, Isreal is carrying out a campaign of extermination that will make October 2023 a subject of history books for centuries to come, and the hill you’ve chosen to die on is that the Palestinians are also imperfect.
Try some reading comprehension on for size btw.
Try talking like a normal person and not a smugness overdosing reddit shithead.
I say that occupied peoples absolutely have the right to struggle against their oppressor, just not the right to murder civilians indiscriminately.
No occupied person cares what you say they’re allowed to do, you privileged asshole. No resistance in history has ever risen to your standard anyway.
Yes they are absolutely going to be wiped out in response to the horrific recent actions of Hamas. It’s absolutely terrible, but a fourth grader could have seen it coming.
Also, stop painting Palestine and Hamas as the same portrait. They simply aren’t.
The Jews would have been justified in killing every German they could get their hands on if it could help stop the Holocaust.
A genocidal society has no right to claim the mercy of a civilian/soldier distinction. They do not recognize it themselves.
It is a horrible tragedy on a personal level. No one person has any power over the situation they find themselves in, but that is the brutal logic of war. Societies will feel less safe in engaging in targeting civilians if their own are subject to retaliation when they do so.
Sorry, since when did anything other than land invasion end the European theater of wwII? I’m pretty sure it’s not widespread knowledge that Hitler killed himself in response to the bombing of Dresden…
Japanese gov is irrelevant to this argument; don’t change the goalposts. It’s a different situation entirely, as the gov refused to back down after already being beaten in the actual theater of war. Bombing was the only way to avoid an incredibly costly land invasion of Japan.
Seems like you might benefit from opening up a history book.
Look at pictures of Germany after the war and tell me it wasn’t violence against Germany. Are you fucking kidding me? Over 500k German civilians died in the bombing raids.
“It was just collateral damage” - the words of a fucking coward who refuse to admit what they’ve done
It sucks they died but ending the Holocaust and Nazi Germany was a moral necessity.
Sorry, since when did anything other than land invasion end the European theater of wwII? I’m pretty sure it’s not widespread knowledge that Hitler killed himself in response to the bombing of Dresden…
The fact that you can’t tell the difference between a music festival and the kind of infrastructure important to warfare that were bombed during WWII doesn’t surprise me in the slightest, but it does sadden me.
This is so absurdly nitpicky I’m not sure what to say. The bombings of Germany DEFINITELY damaged their industry, which helped end the war.
Are you really implying that no innocent civilians were butchered by the ground invasion of Europe? (Also, hilariously, you left out that Japan was literally defeated without a ground invasion of Japan. Same war, buddy.)
You just seem like you can’t accept wars mean violence against a people, not a military/government. It’s a child’s propaganda understanding of warfare that you have.
What do you mean? Jewish politicians are the only ones allowed to even mildly criticize Israel, because anti-semitism claims against them are taken slightly less seriously.
Spot on. Bernie has been called an anti-Semite before, he will probably be called one again for this and I’m sure it won’t be the last time he is called one.
Sanders also reiterated his prior condemnation of the Hamas attack, calling it a “major setback for any hope of peace and reconciliation in the region – and justice for the Palestinian people.”
There was never any hope of peace and reconciliation and justice. 🙄
Yeah I have no idea how these people don’t get it. Are the Palestinians expected to just accept having their calories counted and reduced, their water limited, and their electricity shut off? Like what sort of peace do you think is possible?
No, not with any knowledge of the last 70 years in the region.
Extremists on both side of this conflict want nothing but the extermination of the other and have been saying so for decades.
The world has been trying to broker any sort of solution for all that time but the political leaders on each side do not believe the other has a right to exist.
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