Bitcoin Core went from 0.20.1 to 0.21 to 0.21.1 to 22.0 in 2021. Even though it was completely functional for over a decade at that point and was handling billions of dollars in transactions
0.x versions allow for breaking changes to be made to configuration (and whatnot), which allows stabilization for 1.x versions (which OTOH shouldn’t allow breaking changes without a major bump).
For example, yes. I use it mainly for the Parametric EQ with my HD650 headphones. But you can boost sound stage wideness as well for example, change sound positioning, etc…
Lol, maybe for you, but definitly not for everyone. I work in audio, it’s my job, so i need to do advanced audio stuff. I have two computer on Linux and neither can properly use 2 out of 3 interfaces I’ve tried. They all work fine under macOS and wndows. Many plugins dont work under linux, others requires a lot of tweaking. Those are just a few examples. I really like Linux but it’s not yet capable to replace the other OS for pro audio work. I wish it was but its not the case rn.
I had to buy new speakers to get Pipewire or Pulseaudio to work with 5.1 speakers as the channels were completely messed up otherwise. Worked perfectly on windows and the speakers work perfectly hooked up to my TV as well.
That would have been pure marketing bollocks then.
Needs a full set of surround speakers, and speakers in your ceiling to anywhere near the full effect, which can be subtle at the best of times.
Basically instead of just 7.1 channels, you get extra channels with positional data in them, and then the system works out which speakers to play them through.
Thanks for the replies. I do some audio production and it’s come up a couple of times but I have been flat out saying I’m not going to support it. Kind of good to hear I maybe able to in the future.
Yeah my first conclusion seems correct, I have no use for it. For whatever reason a band I’m in talks with wanted it but it seems they know about as much as I do about it.
Because it isn’t a proper X12. Because waypipe is an add-on, not treated as the most important and core internal functionality. Because it’s made for gamers who can’t be bothered to stand up for Linux native games. Because dev work left real X to work on a toy and not backport features to X. Because until recently, it punished anyone on nvidia. Wish Wayland would just die and a proper X12 produced.
The whole point of Wayland to be a successor to X11 but not using X, made by the same devs that developed X11 to specifically move away from X. Backporting features would miss the whole point because devs left because adding new features to X was getting too difficult and messy according to them, due to how big and all-encompassing and inter-connected that protocol was.
And being punished for using Nvidia was Nvidia’s fault, not Wayland’s.
The only proper thing to do was to continue X development. It just needed proper funding and for people to quit battling over licences. Throwing it all out and replacing it with something not even based around network displays was madness. Now we have this hodgepodge of kluges taped together to try and barely imitate what we once had. It’s an embarrassing disgrace.
The “just” there is doing a lot of work considering the devs themselves disagreed. Sorry, but, I’m going to trust their judgement.
…also the whole networked displays themselves was what caused a lot of problems, according to the devs. Using it for a modern display stack was like trying to fit a round peg in a square hole. Terminals have fallen out of favor ages ago, and personal computing devices today favour things like high responsiveness, clean images, and high refresh rates instead. And we got enough computing power to just stream a video stream directly if that’s needed now.
The spec was the problem, it was awful, again, none of the devs agree with you. The people who deal with this and are experienced with it ALLL chose to move to Wayland development.
It was more attrition by age. New devs came in and didn’t fully understand it. The XFree86 vs Xorg war only made that problem worse. Those who came later didn’t understand it well enough to continue supporting it. Now you’ve got young devs not understanding why things are important to its design, and of course, they want to rip it all up and start over. They haven’t yet learned the lessons of what made the design choices important.
Don’t you think that if NOBODY understands it and is willing to support it… maybe it’s just fucked?
There are no actual issues going on with wayland development, you’re just being a crybaby about network transparency. It’s not even not there, you just don’t like that it was implemented later…
No, I think the young upstarts didn’t bother to learn. They wanted their own toy. Damn right I don’t like it was added later. It should have been the first thing! Period! Faster boot times, games, and other toys don’t matter. FULL backwards compatibility, stability are all that matters. Pretty doesn’t matter.
You are a very confident person who knows very little about what they’re talking about. All the people who do know what they’re talking about, as evidenced by the fact that they used to MAINTAIN X11, say you’re wrong. Good luck convincing them. Good luck convincing anybody, why don’t you maintain X11?
Of course they do not want to admit they were defeated by something better than they could ever produce themselves, as evidenced by their product, Wayland. They inherited the X11 code from their betters and didn’t know what to do with it. They not only didn’t know how to maintain it, they didn’t understand the WHY behind it doing all that it does. So they went out and decided to make the same roomba like mistakes that were made ages ago all over again, ignoring all the lessons learned by their betters. As for me being it’s maintainer, I know my limits. They didn’t, got in a tiff, and started over and made … that terribly incomplete thing.
…they started over, and then they made a completely functional thing that could actually be improved, that you don’t like because… waypipe wasn’t implemented first?
It’s not X12, and not even half of what X11 was. It was made by people with all the wrong agendas and it still took them over 10 years to come up with something not even half of what X11 was. It (Wayland)… needs… to… die… So that proper resources can be dedicated to making of X12. And if possible, make it forever impossible for any games that aren’t Linux native, or just no games at all, which is even better. So many hours wasted on making that wayland and the same for games, resources that should have always been spent on making a real X12.
Nobody devs x11 because they all hate it, and you think you know better than EVERYBODY who has actually touched the code.
Wayland is currently fine, why not take your own advice and make it work better rather than improve something that is so fundamentally broken that literally nobody who has tried thinks it’s even possible to fix.
You know significantly less than the x11 devs, yet you confidently assert that you have a better solution. Do you honestly think nobody tried to work on x11? Everybody did, and they all gave up, because it’s an unworkable mess.
Why do you think waypipe should be the most important thing? Sure remote graphical sessions are neat but there are only a few people who really need it or not? At least I do not see how this is really that beneficial on linux compared to just basic shell stuff that most people are using when doing something remotely. Maybe it is something that the big businesses are using but then there will probably be a discussion to really add it to the protocol directly (if that is even actually needed, waypipe is a software stack that works (with limitations) with the current protocol; wayvnc for wlroots-based compositors seems to work fine and gnome and weston also implement some kind of RDP)
Also, what do you mean “it is made for gamers who can’t be bothered to stand up for linux native games”? Are there actually that many issues with xwayland for native games until Wayland support is added, just like using the pulseaudio server for pipewire until pipewire is completely supported? I am currently slowly transitioning to wayland so I don’t know if there are actually any so please tell me if it is the case or if I am missing something.
Why do you think waypipe should be the most important thing?
Because it is. Use it every day. Very important feature for work.
only a few people who really need it or not?
Those not using it are playing with their computers.
wayvnc
That you even think that is a solution shows you know nothing about the problem.
Are there actually that many issues with xwayland for native games until Wayland support is added
Please… tell me which games you speak of? What is this list native games for Linux? I hope you don’t mean games running on Wine. That’s another huge problem that the kids all seem to just adore these days, and an entirely other argument.
If you want to game, stick to Windows. Linux is for work and those who like having a UNIX like system at home. Wayland and Wine are not for either of those.
Those not using it are playing with their computers.
What is your definition of playing? I use it to code, access my server for some self-hosted services, do office stuff and sure, also for gaming and watching videos. Am I disallowed to wanting to develop at ease with a minimal setup compared to windows and avoid shit like forced cloud stuff because I am gaming on this os? Isn’t it my choice and compliant to free and open source software to have the freedom to use the OS one has the best experience with?
About the gaming stuff: As I have said, I am just currently converting to wayland, so I don’t know of issues because I haven’t tried linux native games extensively. Wine doesn’t have working wayland support but is still (in my short experience) working with xwayland. Linux native games I will try soon are Cassette Beasts, Stardew Valley and maybe Cross Code at some time, all actually native games.
There’s really no truth to anything you’re saying here, whatsoever.
Linux is fantastic for gaming, I use it exclusively, the steam deck being a real thriving product is evidence of this.
Only core functionality should be the default, everything else SHOULD be an add-on, including remote desktop. Insane bloat is what caused X11 to fail. A fix is in the works: …kde.org/arjen-hiemstra-2023-08-08-remote-desktop…
Unfortunately your usecase is rare, so, there’s little motivation to fix it. This isn’t because everyone else “just plays around” with their computers, it’s that very few people do what you do, and so it isn’t considered the most important usecase, and devs care about more important things. Furthermore there’s NO DOWNSIDE whatsoever to making it an add-on. This can all be worked on later, it being an add-on won’t impede any progress, in fact, it’ll make it EASIER to make progress, because the core protocol will be rather solid in foundation.
Remote desktop is not what I’m talking about. Remote applications. Individual applications. Remote desktop is way too much when you want individual apps and for them to respond to your local window manager and copy & paste buffer.
No, it should be an afterthought. It’s not important at all, it’s a niche weird use case. I care way more about having a functional desktop and everything else. I’m very glad it was treated as an afterthought, because I care more about literally every other feature.
Tell me why it being an afterthought matters exactly?
It’s important to your specific niche usecase, maybe.
I’ve never needed to use network transparency, I don’t know anyone who has ever needed to use network transparency, and even if I did, i’d use waypipe… so…?
Great, you don’t use it. I see it in use all over in my company, and in a couple others. It is an important core functionality. That the wayland devs ignored the use case at all to the point of other devs writing wapipe to overcome their screw up is huge.
Don’t say that. It is not in wayland. That is waypipe, the kluge written to overcome the shortcoming of wayland. They are not the same thing, and it’s disingenuous for you to say so.
Wayland needed that core functionality from the start. They chose not to include it, it was so short sighted. That’s why waypipe was created, to cover the huge gap they created. It came too late, it didn’t support remote windowing, and by the time someone glued that hack onto the side of wayland, it was too late. It was already hated for neglecting the primary use of X windows. That hate doesn’t go away unless they internalize the functionality into wayland itself, and take significant steps toward re-implementing all the features of X they ignored and turn it into a real X12. X12 doesn’t have to be from X11 code base, but it does need to do all X11 did, and more, and fully support X11 apps, natively, inside wayland itself, not through Frankensteinian bolted on the side hacks. I’ve said what’s wrong with waypipe a few times now. It’s an ADD ON. Think Firefox extension or plug-in. Not properly included in the original base product, but added on by others. That will never be as elegant and pure as a fully integrated built in solution. Waypipe only exists because wayland was purposefully made incomplete.
Wayland needed that core functionality from the start.
No it didn’t.
They chose not to include it, it was so short sighted.
They chose to make it an add-on to the protocol, this harms literally nothing except your feelings.
That’s why waypipe was created, to cover the huge gap they created.
…Yes, people made waypipe because waypipe didn’t exist yet, now it exists, and it works fine.
and by the time someone glued that hack onto the side of wayland, it was too late
Too late for… your feelings?
It was already hated for neglecting the primary use of X windows
Nobody but you thinks that’s the primary use of X windows.
That hate doesn’t go away unless they internalize the functionality into wayland itself, and take significant steps toward re-implementing all the features of X they ignored and turn it into a real X12.
…Are you not aware of what the wayland devs have been doing? they add features and implement them, they didn’t do it all instantly from the start because that’s literally impossible. It now has all the missing features.
Think Firefox extension or plug-in. Not properly included in the original base product, but added on by others. That will never be as elegant and pure as a fully integrated built in solution. Waypipe only exists because wayland was purposefully made incomplete.
This is nonsense, give me an actual example of how waypipe is worse, network transparency was sacrificed to work on more important features, and made it easy to extend the protocol to support it later. There’s no downsides to this.
That will never be as elegant and pure as a fully integrated built in solution.
When your games have an issue, don’t blame Linux. Don’t even mention Linux. It’ll be your own fault for using a compatibility layer (Wine/Proton). The games are written for Windows, they shouldn’t get any of your money.
Because it discourages native Linux game development for something ‘good enough’ using a windows compatibility layer that really is just a large hack. That’s why I care. Games for Linux should be made naively for Linux, to bolster the Linux operating system. When wine/proton fails, people confuse it with being the fault of Linux, when it’s not. It is the fault of running software not made for Linux to begin with on a compatibility layer. Those problems unnecessarily tarnish Linux. It’s wrong, it really shouldn’t be allowed, and I’d be happy to see Wine/Proton sued out of existence to prevent it.
Either native or not at all. The way proton sits in the middle leaves Linux with all the complaints when it goes wrong. Not Linux’s fault. It’s people like you that are to blame for putting Linux in a situation it should never have been in. Linux does not need games, anyway. Games are for children.
“linux does not need games anyway, games are for children” says the man crying about a compatibility layer that according to them should not affect them at all.
After years of it sucking, yeah. Would have been much faster if that stumbling block of games was never in the way to start with. It took forever for it to even approach being stable. It’s a hack. It’s not proper. It’s supporting gaming studios writing for Windows, not Linux. That is wrong. Get that through your heads!
If only. Took a long time to trust KDE again after their disaster called KDE 4. Worried as hell now that they intend to remove functionality in KDE 6, as well as making new wayland only features. And if you dare remind them of KDE 4, they get their pants in a twist.
By mentioning KDE3 and GTK2, my goal was to remind you of the emotional trauma KDE4 and GNOME3 came with. I love GNOME 43 on Debian 12, and found KDE5 couple months ago embarrassingly bad at performance and subpar (W10 tier) at polish
Ok, lemmy isn’t showing me the full context of our thread anymore… So I’m with you on the trauma of those terrible creations. Where were you going with it?
Don’t remind KDE of their KDE 4 past in their official communities. @Bro666, one of their mods, is suuuper sensitive about it. He’ll say that mentioning it is rude, and if you dare stick up for factual statements, he’ll ban ya. Don’t give feedback, either. Anything other than praise he calls rude and tells you to go code it yourself. Real piece of work, that one.
I avoid interacting with most portions of Linux community, having had my vitriolic experiences with them. Thanks for the warning, that downvote seems to be attesting your claims.
I can’t speak to most Linux communities, but yeah… that one needs to be defunded, shut down, and that mod never left in charge of anything official for the KDE community ever again. Total gatekeeper.
RandomLegend_dbzer0 that comes with the dbzer0 site. I’ve tried them all, but often I can’t open the sub replies link. In all of them it just spins when you click it, you never get to the comments. Had the same problem on two other lemmy instances and various themes in the past. Only thing I’ve tried that works is Voyager on my phone.
That happens when there is some kind of user or instance blocking on, or some client side bug or internet connection issue. Jerboa is official and has no features conflicting, but even on it sometimes I get that “X replies” not opening, so I just use the browser webapp. It is the only one that will never fail.
Remote full terminals, not just remote shells, are invaluable. Remotely displaying old HP Openview. Remotely displaying tn3270 to access the mainframe payrole system that only allowlisted the bastion host for security. Remote displaying legacy X apps, like my engineers migrating ancient flight control documents from Interleaf to QuickSilver, other Motif applications. There are industries still needing and using this stuff. Hell, there are still Apollo systems around running X11R4 and rlogin running around in server closets on token ring because of data that could never be migrated. Congrats on 42, you’re still young.
I also currently have more problems with Wayland than with Xorg and find a few design decisions highly questionable, but that’s no reason to completely talk it down in the way you do. You don’t have to like it, you can criticize it, but you should stay civil.
You are too sensible. He just said Wayland doesn’t rock, and its just a fact. If Wayland “rocks” why it need much more work to implement a WM ? (please don’t talk me about wlroots, its not part of Wayland), and in the end it fragments Linux desktop ! Wayland will replace X but it is not a brillant project.
True, I only focused on the “Frankenstein” comment. The initial comment wasn’t this condescending. It was quite cynical, but I am not sure that warranted these many downvotes.
Anyway: there was an intesting article recently that explained the architecture, and it makes sense. But it also shows the downsides.
More work to implement a WM without using something like wlroots? That’s a fundamentally flawed argument, you seem to believe there is no X protocol, when in fact, X11 is just an implementation of the X protocol, just like wlroots is an implementation of the wayland protocol.
Have you ever tried implementing the X protocol without X11? Good luck. There’s no other implementations because creating one is awful. Wlroots solved the same problem as X11 did, actually implementing the protocol in a way that other projects can make their own WM’s/whatnot easily.
wlroots IS equivalent to X11, wayland is equivalent to the X protocol. Nobody has reimplemented the X protocol.
wlroots is an implementation, just like x11, so, yes, that is how it works on the x.org side of things.
Ok, my sentence was unfair. What I meant is Wlroots is not standard as Xorg. Wayland has 3 “Xorgs” with eventually their own extensions that can hurt portablity between DEs/WM. Whats the point of a protocol if it doesn’t ensure your app will work on all Wayland ?
This exact thing happened with x11, you clearly have not researched the history of this.
Your app will work across all of Wayland, the reason this happened is because wlroots came out after gnome and kde made their implementations… kde and wlroots have worked together to the point where kde’s compositor is almost identical to wlroots. The only apps I’m aware of that don’t work are display managers but that’s only because the protocol for that hasn’t been stabilized yet.
While I agree with your conclusion, your explanation is not right.
X11 is the 11th version of the X protocol, it is not an implementation. The Xorg server is the only relevant implementation for the server side of things, and for X11 window managers and X11 compositors there’s only libx11 (which is very horrible) or libxcb (slightly less horrible). Both of those are about as high level as libwayland-server + libwayland-scanner - which is to say, nearly as low level as it gets.
wlroots in contrast provides comparatively high level libraries / components, which make the implementation of compositors less of a headache than having to mess around with barely documented xcb functions.
You didn’t criticize it, you simply stated that it was bad, in a clear attempt at baiting a reaction out of people. This is fragile loser behavior and indicative of an unwell mind. Seek healing.
Both Wayland and Pipewire have been the direct cause of unusable VMs. Replacing them with Xorg and Pulse makes all the VMs usable again. This has been the case in VMWare, Virtualbox, and Hyper-V. VMs in Proxmox have been less problematic but still problematic.
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