https://discuss.tchncs.de/pictrs/image/f01a4e9a-35be-4219-a3a9-bf0012dc52e7.jpegTF did I just read? Yes, getting a “no strings attached” ID as an undocumented person or illegal alien is a pain-in-the-ass, but the problem there isn’t any state refusing to document them, its that they don’t want to interact with a given state for fear of being deported, and/or they do NOT WANT to be documented for whatever reason.
Its not their government refusing to issue ID. That’s generally not a thing outside of Alabama (because they closed the places that issue IDs) … and that’s not a “big government” problem, but a state refusing to follow federal law and court orders. Give those last two some MORE teeth and watch what happens.
I’m not sure how they track illegal aliens that they’ve opted not to export just yet, but by definition, once they are in the system by way of intentional interaction with the government, they are “documented”. Becomming identified/identifiable is far from impossible; Its an inconvenient pain though.
All it takes to get a library card is a piece of mail. For that mail, an address. Homeless shelters(among others, but here its free of charge) provide address/mail services(of a sort, and by request). Library card + piece of mail plus some sort of birth certificate(think a foreign one will do) will get you a State ID, generally issued at the DMV/BMV, but you don’t have to pass a driving exam for an ID.
Getting ID alone is not the problem. The problem is all the baggage it un-packs into a mess on the floor. IMHO, someone who takes the initiative to literally tell the government who they are and where they live should be allowed to work, rent an apartment, recieve healthcare, and otherwise be left alone unless they need help or commit a crime … hell, make them citizens after x years “above board” … but that’s not the state we live in.
“Work Permit”/“Visa”/whatever, should come with some guarantees/privileges/obligations(for any party bring an immigrant/potential in), like, thanks for letting us know you’re coming, here’s your job, some necessities/food and a place to stay until you can afford better. Whenever we hit the point that NOT having those things meant illegal/criminal is one of the tipping points where the US became less free. I don’t care what an idividual has done, that damage to our Liberty and the promise of “The American Dream” was worse, no matter your criteria.
Immigmants bring prosperity and good will. Always have and still do(todays immigrants, especially the illegal ones, are more law-abiding than any before), regardless of legal status. There is no reason to treat them as our government does today.
Immigration is a complex issue. I think the problem is no one wants to spend money on those people. You are talking about giving them free stuff with no incentive to work. Sure you could just take it away after a period of time but at the end of the day there is a better solution.
What would be ideal is that companies could have process for legally bring people to work. They could have contracts where a person works for a set period of time and after that time they are a citizen. The key would be to protect the workers rights via OSHA and other labor laws. This would especially be needed as they would be on a contract.
I am absolutely not talking about “free stuff”. They have to prove they have a job lined-up to get a work Visa; Proof they also have housing lined up and the ability to buy groceries should also be a part of that, and on the employer. It’s the would-be employer who is claiming to “need” them, after all.
I agree citizenship should be guaranteed after a set period of time, but I’ll settle for them not breaking the law during that time. There are plenty of legal ways to support onesself and not “be a burden to society” outside of normal employment.
The path to citizenship for people already here should be more straight-forward/much the same as well. I would argue that its harder to sneak into this country than to enter it legally. Seems to me that those people want it more, and have demonstrated they are willing to endure hardship to get here. “Free stuff” for them? Not available legally already, but they shouldn’t be criminalized just for being here and needing food and/or a place to stay. No one chooses to stay in a shelter “to scam the system”.
it equates state and business, they are not the same and business should not be treated as a viable substitute for a state.
it make it look like all places have the same set of problems when it’s more like same places have same of the problems and probably nowhere have all of them.
This article is a not sense. There is not a monopoly of identity: a lot of corporations and big tech have an ID about us or, at least, about me.
Also, in my case, the state have paid most of my education, my healthcare, the street where I live… nor google not other big tech have paid a dime for it.
The critic in the article has his points, but the proposed solution—using capitalist enterprises to issue IDs—is nonsense. We will lose track of people from a fiscal point of view, and it will not solve the problem of the people that not any corporation would issue an ID.
Via the government ID system, the state exerts a monopoly on identity and an obsession with tracking people from “birth certificate” to “death certificate”. Disproportionate KYC regulations actively exclude people without government-issued ID from necessary services, including jobs, housing and healthcare and even everyday things like online shopping, receiving mail, buying a sim card, doing volunteer work, taking classes, or visiting the gym or library.
The author must be American… it is a given an accepted fact** across Europe that you’re required to carry around and show if requested by authorities your govt id. **Nobody consider this a big deal, and yes, it is obvious that if you don’t produce it then you won’t be able to get a job as registering for a job requires the company to enter both your tax ID number and your social security number in at least one govt platform so they can pay your and retain the required amount for taxes and social security you can can later have a retirement…
Americans like to play very loose with identities and then you get tax frauds, identity theft and ultimately SIM swapping attacks that are almost zero in Europe because every single mobile carrier will require your govt id to buy a SIM card in the first place and will also require it if you need a new one.
In an ideal world, people would be judged on their actions and intent, rather than on circumstances of birth and decisions of bureaucrats. For housing, only your ability to pay rent would be relevant. For a job, only your skills and work ethic would be relevant.
Yes… and how you’re expecting to have a pension and prove you’ve worked x years and some place if you don’t provide a govt id?
For healthcare, only your medical condition would be relevant (it would be against the Hippocratic Oath to deny medical treatment to people without ID, especially if they are paying out-of-pocket in cash).
Yes… and how are you expecting the hospital to keep a medical record that contains important information about your health and is required to provide you with decent healthcare without actually requiring a govt id / identification?
You can’t legally work in the US without a Tax ID (generally your social).
Hospitals used to track you by name and address, with no problem. They did for me for decades. Using a government ID number isn’t necessary, organizations just like exerting control.
And no, in the US you don’t need to have ID to go anywhere. You can drive from California to Maine never having to show an ID - why should you?
I just did a 7 hour road trip, never once even opened my wallet.
Also, your social security number is not to be used as an ID - states so right on the card. Let’s think about the implications of that statement, vs what is occurring today.
You would have to show ID if a police officer pulled you over. It’s literally how the previous commenter described. The EU has the schengen area, which is an open boarders agreement that works nearly identically to the open boarders agreement between US states.
The reason the social security card says not to use it for identification is beause it’s really bad at it. But it is used as an ID number anyway. The US doesn’t have a national ID system in theory, but in practice it does. Not having an official national ID number just makes it less secure and convenient.
Hospitals used to track you by name and address, with no problem. They did for me for decades. Using a government ID number isn’t necessary, organizations just like exerting control.
Yes… and then you’ve those same hospital selling your data to insurance companies (or being owned by them) because that’s mostly the way they’ve to keep track of people and have updated medical records across the country.
Meanwhile in Europe what you get is the govt manages your healthcare data and hospital simply access and update the data in a controlled and organized fashion by typing your social security number into a govt provided system. You, as patient, also get an SMS message asking for permission whenever they want to access information / do certain actions or just notifications of data access. Prescriptions use the same system, you walk out of a clinic / hospital without any papers, just go into a pharmacy and they can pull what’s prescribed to you.
And no, in the US you don’t need to have ID to go anywhere. You can drive from California to Maine never having to show an ID - why should you?
Well I can drive across multiple countries in Europe using highways without ever stopping or showing IDs… however if some police officer appears and asks for it I’m required to show it by law.
Also, your social security number is not to be used as an ID - states so right on the card. Let’s think about the implications of that statement, vs what is occurring today.
Yes, because the US doesn’t have the concept of a citizen ID / identity card and people are identified by stuff like a social security number or a driving license (lol)… there’s almost no standardization when it comes to identifying people in the US (especially across states) and social security shouldn’t be used to identify people mostly because in the US there’s no useful central database thus those numbers might not be correct, unique etc.
In Europe countries have way more autonomy and sovereignty than any US state yet there’s a cross-border framework for identifying people. Every country has it’s own citizen card that follows certain rules, usually includes a single (or multiple) numbers that are used as citizen ID, social security ID for taxes. Those cards are also required to contain a chip (smartcard), allowing for the secure digital identification and authentication as well as the digital signatures - you can login into any govt service with your card a PIN and/or sign contracts with it for instance. Some people such as lawyers, doctors and accountants are even required by law to sign documents with those cards instead of handwriting because forging signatures is doable while forging a X.509 digital signature isn’t possible.
Sounds like all you’re saying is Europe doesn’t respect personal privacy or the right to go about your life not being harassed by government officials when you’ve done nothing wrong.
Sounds like all you’re saying is Europe doesn’t respect personal privacy or the right to go about your life not being harassed by government officials when you’ve done nothing wrong.
I’m saying that yes, and also that you can’t benefit from certain things like tax breaks, pensions and proper healthcare without identifying people.
In the case of US gov., they’ve been caught repeatedly selling taxpayer info for money. THAT is the problem.
Yes, this is a problem but I don’t think that you can fix it by making it harder to identify people… Because that also increases identity theft, general criminal behavior, make you unable exert other rights etc.
You can decrease identity theft by actually creating a not-shitty verification system. Things like SSN and DL #s are required too often, then stored insecurely so all that info leaks, THATS what causes ID theft.
I can’t even address “general criminal behavior” because that’s obscenely general description. If your insinuation is something about encrypted communication, the US government has demonstrated why we need things like that time and time again.
Yes, a “non shitty verification system” like what EU countries do. Want to validate your identity? Sure show your ID card with a photo and smart card, insert into a smart card reader and the person can attest your identity against the info there. Same goes for using those cards to make signature forging a thing of the past.
Not quite Europe, but here we have mandatory KYC on simcards too (you can get an illegal anonymous one still, but this is a different story). Guess what, it does nothing to prevent simswapping, it very much still happens.
If you require KYC for buying and changing cards then SIM swapping becomes impossible as nobody can get a new SIM card with your phone number by social engineering the carrier.
Yes, but those things need to have procedures and employee authentication. If someone employee is found to be accepting bribes for SIM swaps then it should be fired on the spot and hold legally liable for all the damages - you can easily add this into a work contract. If a carrier doesn’t do this and doesn’t log those kinds operations then it’s just poor management and people shouldn’t buy services from it.
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