Curiosity of a non-vegan

queermunist, 28 days ago

Why do you make the conscious decision to not eat meat/animal products?

Because someone has to hurt and/or kill an animal for me to give me that product. Statistically, people who work in the industry have higher rates of violent crime, drug addiction, suicide, and domestic abuse. I couldn’t force people to do something like that for me anymore.

Do you have negative feelings towards those who raise their own animals for food, such as those who raise chickens for eggs or cattle for milk, and otherwise treat the animals ethically?

Hypothetically I guess someone with a rescue hen that collects her eggs is fine-ish, as long as they don’t kill her when she’s too old to lay. I wouldn’t partake in chicken period, but I guess it’s whatever.

But for cows, it’s never ethical. They aren’t like chickens, they don’t just produce milk constantly. It requires impregnation, and even if the farmer has a bull (where did the bull come from? was he rented from another farm that’s going to kill him?) and isn’t raping her for insemination purposes, that milk isn’t really for us. It’s for her baby! And she knows!

The process of milking requires that you mess with her instincts and her head by letting the calf feed for a moment, then tying up her calf nearby so that she lets her milk down so the farmer can steal her milk. The farmer will need to keep reintroducing the calf so that she keeps letting her milk down. She’ll probably need to be restrained too because she doesn’t want us to steal her milk!

The rape and molestation of cows is wrong and I look down on anyone that does that shit.

Are there other reasons for not eating meat that I’m not considering?

Back to my reason for being vegan, it’s so important to remember the worker when considering this. Have you ever killed an animal? It’s horrible. A person that has to do that all the time will get seriously psychologically wounded and it’s lethal. If you don’t care about non-human animals, consider the human animal. Someone had to kill that animal for you and that has consequences.

Also, pandemics. Wherever COVID came from (probably bushmeat) we’re staring down the barrel of a bird flu pandemic and it’s spreading among cows right now. It won’t be long before that makes the leap to humans, and it will be 100% because of the animal industry.

When did you choose to switch to a vegan lifestyle, what (if any) was the “catalyst”?

Pandemic, because I was home all the time and finally learned to cook. I was always sympathetic to veganism but ultimately too lazy to really put in any effort, but having those months to myself to pick up cooking as a hobby opened up the gate for me to cut out animal products.

I feel super guilty for procrastinating on that shit for so long, it was not hard at all and I could have done it at any time. Ugh.

What are some challenges that you have dealt with when it comes to this lifestyle?

Gelatin. That’s made from bone marrow, and it’s not listed in the allergens section with milk and/or eggs on the nutrition information.

Why do you believe there is a continued stigma around veganism in many physical/internet communities?

I suspect there are a lot of people who feel attacked by our veganism because they ultimately agree with us, but haven’t committed and feel guilty that they haven’t made that extra step to change their own life. We cause cognitive dissonance, attacking vegans is a cope.

AnEilifintChorcra, 28 days ago (edited 23 days ago)

• I think an animals life is more important than my taste buds. Animal agricultural is immoral, unsustainable and unnecessary. I don’t want to be a part of that and I want to have the least amount of impact on the world as I can while I’m here. Leave it the way you found it etc.

• That depends, if they have the option not to then yeah. Killing when its not necessary is cruel. Hens eat their own eggs for nourishment, so there’s no need to rob them for no reason. Female mammals have to be impregnated before they’ll start lactating. Pregnancy can be very painful, uncomfortable and life threatening, ask any mother. You can’t treat another being ethically if their purpose is to allow you to either murder, rob or forcefully impregnate them.

• Climate change impact. Taxes to subsidise private companies in the industry instead of going to healthcare, housing education etc. The mental health and working conditions of people working in slaughterhouses. Increased prevalence and risk of zoonotic diseases. Inflated land value and underdeveloped areas, probably more specific to my country. Biodiversity loss. Endangered species ending up as bycatch.

• 6 years ago, I was reading a paper on climate change, where it talked about the impact of animal agriculture on the environment, then I watched some videos on animal agriculture and couldn’t make it through 20 minutes of Dominion, I switched over night

• Constantly being asked do I miss meat etc. Basically no restaurants near me have vegan options, but tbh its such a good excuse to get out of going for dinner since I hate eating out lol

• Eating meat is engrained into a lot of people and they have just never questioned it because “that’s just the way it is” so when they’re faced with a moral dilemma that goes against something that has become so normal to them, they get confused and feel guilty which causes a negative reaction. The realities of animal agriculture are an uncomfortable truth that people don’t want to think about and vegans are their reminder.

Thanks for taking the time to ask about this stuff, its not easy to come into a space where you’re the odd one out and start a difficult discussion. Hopefully you see some stuff here that interests you so you can go read about it and who knows, maybe this might be your catalyst!

iiGxC, 28 days ago

Why do you make the conscious decision to not eat meat/animal products?

Compassion for all sentient beings/the original position thought experiment. If I was in their position, what would I want humans to do/how would I want to be treated?

Do you have negative feelings towards those who raise their own animals for food, such as those who raise chickens for eggs or cattle for milk, and otherwise treat the animals ethically?

Yes. They’re treating those animals as a resource to exploit, rather than with compassion. If you can honestly say you’d be fine with being in the position of those other animals yourself, then I probably can’t convince you of why it’s still an issue. As a thought experiment, imagine aliens who, in terms of intelligence, make us look as intelligent as a traditionally farmed animal. Would you be ok with them using their advanced intelligence to manipulate us into being raised as livestock, to eat us or our secretions?

Are there other reasons for not eating meat that I’m not considering?

idk, which ones have you considered? imo the one that stands on it’s own is ethics (e.g. do no harm, treat others as you want to be treated, combined with the fact that humans at all stages of life can thrive on a vegan diet), but the environment is another big one, although for me I care about the environment because of ethics, and lastly health. Most vegan diets are better than the Standard American Diet (SAD), but it’s not the strongest argument imo.

When did you choose to switch to a vegan lifestyle, what (if any) was the “catalyst”?

About 4-5 years ago, after leaving religion. I had to think about ethics for myself instead of “whatever the bible says is right”, and arguing about atheist ethics with my dad he said “wouldn’t that apply to animals too?” and I said yes, and then realized the implications of that, went pescetarian, learned fish feel pain, and went vegan within about a month.

What are some challenges that you have dealt with when it comes to this lifestyle?

realizing people are not as compassionate as I thought, who don’t give a fuck about the atrocities of animal agriculture

Why do you believe there is a continued stigma around veganism in many physical/internet communities?

same reason there’s a stigma about environmentalists among people who love fossil fuels.

People don’t like change, and when people have gotten used to causing harm and oppressing others, they don’t like it when other people demonstrate a better way to live is possible. It shows them that they’ve needlessly caused a lot of harm, and instead of reflecting on that and stopping/changing, or accepting that they’re being selfish, they lash out at the group demonstrating the better way.

when you’re accustomed to privilege, justice feels like oppression. If you’ve been hurting others for personal gain and people tell you to stop, it feels like oppression. The reality is, we’re just asking to end the injustice and oppression of other species.

electric_nan, 28 days ago

The catalyst for me was realizing that vegetarian/vegan food could be delicious. After that, I decided I didn’t have an excuse anymore.

herrcaptain, 28 days ago

My take on it is maybe a little non-traditional. I think we as a species are evolutionary omnivores so it’s technically “normal” for us to eat meat and dairy. However, I also think we’re at a point in our development that we’re able to transcend that as a need. Nature is inherently cruel, and some species are obligate carnivores who must eat meat, but we as humans are in a unique place where we can partially remove ourselves from that cycle.

While I think it’s normal to consume animal products and thus don’t look down on those who do, I’m more critical of (most) people who are so far removed from the process that they can enjoy these products without even comprehending the potential suffering their consumption entails. Thus, I can begrudgingly respect a hunter or farmer who gets their own hands dirty, but people who can enjoy a cheeseburger as if their food never had feelings get less sympathy from me. As such, I made the choice to go vegan at 15 because I know I could never harm an animal outside of self defense. I therefore feel it is unethical for me to outsource the participation in this suffering to someone else on my behalf.

I arrived at these beliefs through exposure from anarchist punk bands and the non-fiction writing of Leo Tolstoy. (A leading figure in Christian Anarchism in addition to his literary fame.)

I’m nearly 40 now and and my wife is also a very long-term vegan so this is a life choice for us. We have a baby on the way who will be raised as such (carefully, of course) until they are old enough to understand and decide for themself.

That all being said, I’m not evangelical about veganism but am happy to guide people toward considering it. Good for you for posing these questions!

NoisyFlake, 28 days ago (edited 23 days ago)

Hi there. For me it’s perfectly fine for non-vegans to post here, as long as they are as respectful as you are. I’m gonna try to answer each of your questions real quick from my own point of view:

Why do you make the conscious decision to not eat meat/animal products?

Because I don’t want animals to suffer just so I can have a specific meal. There’s enough alternatives I can create a delicious meal with that don’t involve exploiting animals.

Do you have negative feelings towards those who raise their own animals for food, such as those who raise chickens for eggs or cattle for milk, and otherwise treat the animals ethically?

That depends, meat is obviously a no-go. Milk is also pretty criticial, since a) you’re taking away the milk the mother produced for it’s child, b) you have to separate mother and child so that the child can’t drink the milk, and c) you have to impregnate the cow against its will continuously to keep up the milk production. Eggs are probably the thing I’d see as most acceptable, as long as the chickens can roam free and are not specifically held for egg production.

Are there other reasons for not eating meat that I’m not considering?

Well, for me it’s mostly ethical. But there’s also a huge environmental aspect, as well as a health aspect.

When did you choose to switch to a vegan lifestyle, what (if any) was the “catalyst”?

About a year ago, I was trying to reduce my meat consumption and somehow found a link to the Dominion documentation. If you haven’t watched it yet, I gotta warn you, it’s absolutely brutal. I couldn’t watch it until the end because I was crying and shaking, and I haven’t touched meat since. I went vegetarian first for about a month, and then switched to a fully vegan lifestyle when I found out that milk and eggs can’t really be produced ethically as well.

What are some challenges that you have dealt with when it comes to this lifestyle?

Acceptance from family, friends and others. Most people are pretty accepting of me being vegan, but there are always people that feel the need to justify their meat consumption without being asked, telling me that my plant-based patty should not be allowed to be called a patty or are simply rude by making jokes about veganism like “if I put tofu around this steak, would you eat it”.

I live in a small town, and ordering food is really annoying. There are basically two places that deliver vegan food, and that’s pizza and Subway. But I guess it’s not all bad, since I cook way more often because of this.

Why do you believe there is a continued stigma around veganism in many physical/internet communities?

The same reason there’s stigma around different religions: people with different beliefs try to convince the other side that they are wrong. Oh, and also because most people only have heard bad things about veganism, like extremists that take the completely wrong approach to convince people to become vegan.

I hope I answered most questions to your satisfaction.