Tokyo bets big on hydrogen with moves to boost commercial fuel cell vehicles - The Mainichi

The Tokyo Metropolitan Government is doubling its budget for hydrogen-related initiatives from fiscal 2024, seeing them as key to combating climate change. While previously supporting fuel cell vehicle (FCV) purchases and the establishment of hydrogen fueling stations, the focus is shifting to promote the adoption of hydrogen fuel cell-powered commercial vehicles including large trucks. Will this be a catalyst for the widespread adoption of hydrogen?

3volver,

Hydrogen fuel cells are ineffective if the energy used to produce them are from fossil fuels. Better to just have battery powered vehicles which get their electricity from hydrogen power plants.

Hypx,
@Hypx@fedia.io avatar

BEVs have the same problem. If the electricity is made from fossil fuels, it is also dirty.

3volver,

That's true, except further more hydrogen fuel cells are unnecessary especially as battery technology gets better. Hydrogen power plants providing electricity to battery electric vehicles is way more logical. There is no need to waste energy storing hydrogen if we can just use raw energy to charge batteries to power vehicles. Hydrogen is also very difficult to store, and if not stored properly can be very dangerous. The biggest hurdle for hydrogen vehicles has mainly been the storage of hydrogen.

Hypx,
@Hypx@fedia.io avatar

This is anti-hydrogen propaganda. Fuel cells are batteries. At least in the fundamental sense. BEV fans and companies are just poisoning the well against any possible alternatives to their product. As a result, they have become silent climate change deniers, whose main goal is now promotion of outdated technology over genuine environmentalism.

Also, there is no evidence that FCEVs are dangerous. There has never been a record incident of a FCEV exploding or even burning severely. If anything, they are safer than BEVs.

3volver,

I literally wrote "Hydrogen power plants providing electricity to battery electric vehicles is way more logical." and "if not stored properly can be very dangerous". That isn't anti-hydrogen propaganda, hydrogen vehicles are more expensive, and it would be better to just have an efficient hydrogen power plant provide electricity to battery powered vehicles.

Hypx,
@Hypx@fedia.io avatar

If it is being generated by hydrogen, why not run the cars on hydrogen directly?

Everything else you said is totally false. Hydrogen cars are much cheaper to manufacture than BEVs. They are safer and much less resource demanding too.

3volver,

Hydrogen cars are much cheaper to manufacture than BEVs. They are safer and much less resource demanding too.

Strong doubt, reliable source?

why not run the cars on hydrogen directly?

I already explained that, it would be better to just have an efficient hydrogen power plant provide electricity to battery powered vehicles.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel_cell_power_plant

Hypx,
@Hypx@fedia.io avatar

A fuel cell is as cheap as an ICE to make: https://www.miningweekly.com/article/new-platinum-based-hydrogen-fuel-cell-as-cheap-to-make-as-conventional-car-engine-2024-04-02

It can easily be demonstrated that BEVs cost much more than ICE cars to make, especially when it is suppose to be long ranged.

A fuel cell in a car is highly efficient. You don't gain significantly more efficiency by use it in a centralized power plant. Especially when you have to take into account losses from the grid and charging losses.

3volver,

You have to factor in the logistics and infrastructure. How much will all the infrastructure cost to install throughout the country? All the logistics to move the hydrogen around? Why can't I buy a hydrogen car for less than $60k? Where would I fuel it?

Hypx,
@Hypx@fedia.io avatar

There is less logistical challenges for moving hydrogen around than trying to expand the grid to handle all cars plus the infrastructure of manufacturing of batteries. People have simply failed to grasp how big of a challenge the latter actually is.

You can buy fuel cell powered toy cars right now. The basic cost of fuel cells is very low. People are merely looking at effect of low manufacturing rates and then ignoring the possibility of mass production. In reality, a mass produced FCEV would cost about the same as a ICE car and have the same range. BEVs are fundamentally inferior idea.

Not to mention that BEVs are close to $60k right now, despite high levels of mass production. This shows that the idea cannot be competitive.

Diplomjodler3,

But they're about three times more efficient so even if the electricity is made from fossil fuels they're better.

Hypx,
@Hypx@fedia.io avatar

This is more anti-hydrogen propaganda. If both are made from fossil fuels, the carbon intensity is basically the same.

Diplomjodler3,

I genuinely don't know what to say. Maybe you should try to develop some basic understanding of the subject matter before embarrassing yourself with such hot takes. If one vehicle is more efficient than another, it obviously requires less fuel to travel a certain distance. That means less carbon emissions because less fuel is being burned. I don't know how I can dumb it down any further.

Hypx, (edited )
@Hypx@fedia.io avatar

Again, straight-up BS. People are blatantly lying to you about this subject. BEV companies are spreading nothing but propaganda. It is a factually false claim.

In fact, it can easily be demonstrated to be the case. You generate 9.3kg of CO2 per kg of hydrogen when made from 100% natural gas. At 70 miles per kg, that is 133 grams per mile.

Meanwhile, electricity from natural gas generated 0.86 pounds, or 0.44 kg, per kWh. At 3.4 miles per kWh, that is 129 grams per mile.

That is within spitting distance of each other.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2020/06/06/estimating-the-carbon-footprint-of-hydrogen-production/
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=74&t=11

Diplomjodler3,

Oh OK. And then the hydrogen is teleported straight to the car's tank, right? Fantastic technology! Ever heard of well to wheel efficiency? For BEVs that's generally accepted to be around 70-75%. Die FCEVs it's more like 25-30%. Go figure.

Hypx,
@Hypx@fedia.io avatar

Hydrogen pipelines are a lot cheaper and simpler to build than high-voltage powerlines.

And you are just ignoring what I just wrote and substitute outright lies from BEV companies. Again, there is no difference in CO2 emissions when both are made from fossil fuels. As a result, BEVs are not any greener and arguably much worse when you look at certain factors related to weight and battery production. The entire argument over efficiency is just a extremely rare scenario which doesn't even apply in this case, and won't apply even in the future. In reality, you will need to store electricity in a 100% renewable grid. That requires large scale and long-duration energy storage solutions. One of which is hydrogen based energy storage. So you will charge your BEV with hydrogen power in the future. This quickly kills the idea that BEVs are anymore efficient.

And that is before you factor future innovation. In the long run, we will make hydrogen directly, such as from photocatalysts or thermal processes that don't use electricity. Fuel cells will increase in efficiency until they are basically the same as conventional batteries. As a result, this entire argument will be totally rejected. It will only be remembered as this BEV propaganda statement from the early 21st century.

Diplomjodler3,

Nice gish gallop, mate. You're really a lost cause.

Hypx,
@Hypx@fedia.io avatar

You are projecting. You are the one spamming BEV propaganda. You are the one repeating lies. People like you are nothing more than climate change deniers and allies of corporate interests.

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