Listen fam I know we need to condemn the war crimes and violence of both sides. But a message we can rally behind was taught to me by The Kavernacle.
Hamas is, like the IRA, an extreme and desperate response to dehumanizing conditions laid out by Israel. Israel has put these people into worse than third world conditions. They use Hamas as a wedge to treat all Gazans worse. Israel has the power in this situation.
Hamas targeted military facilities and personnel, and civilians were caught in the crossfire when Israel fired at them.
Israel specifically targets civilians and massacres them. Even children. They burn them alive and torture them. Hamas is the last group left putting up a fight against this genocide. Hamas is not even a fraction of the concern that Israel is.
You’re surprised that a dance rave that was held 10 minutes outside the border of a concentration camp and active war zone got caught in the cross fire?
It was held in Re’im kibbutz, which is right next to the the Re’im Israeli military base.
The rave had many Israeli military soldiers positioned, and they fired at the Palestinian resistance forces heading to Re’im base and skirmished with them, putting the ravers in the crossfire.
The person I saw desperately hiding behind their car and shot and killed from three feet away by a Hamas fighter did not look to me to be an IDF soldier. They were deliberately targeted, not "caught in a crossfire". Videos don't lie.
Thanks for the link! I assume you’re speaking about the part between 1:30 and 1:40. a person wearing black appeared behind the lines of Palestinian forces. This would be pretty alarming to the fighters, as the person in black could be undercover or off duty soldier. The person was probably yelled at and told to get down, but proceeded to move in the wrong direction (could be language barrier). It seems that this is when someone opened fire, but you can see smoke appears on the ground noticeably far from the person. This means whoever was shooting shot at the ground, to alert the person in black. It was immediately after that that the person in black dropped to the ground.
Most likely, they dropped not because they got shot and killed, but because they complied after being warned with the gunshots. If you’re shooting to kill, you wouldn’t be shooting on the ground far from the person, or even their legs. Moreover, if you look close and zoom in, the person is seen moving after they drop right before the clip ends, indicating they’re probably still alive, and the video clip ends immediately after.
Sorry, justify it and sugarcoat to yourself and speculate however you want, you're not going to convince me both sides aren't evil sick and twisted assholes in this conflict with both Palestinian and Israeli civilians caught in the middle.
This may be true but in order to come to a meaningful solution you cannot be afraid to analyze the situation. By all conclusions the violence and power in this situation is entirely asymmetrical. The IDF have been operating an apartheid state and an open air prison. These conditions led to the violence. The solution is a free Palestine.
No need to apologize. I understand you’ve made up your mind already, but the facts are clear, and others reading my comment can cross what I said with the video to compare and verify me.
“both sides” is a meaningless stance. What are you recommending, other than maintaining the status quo of massacre and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians? Of slow death and suffocation? What are Palestinians to do but resist?
I don't have an answer to that. Nobody has a good answer to that. It doesn't mean I condone targeting civilians, no matter who it is. They both have the right to exist and live in peace.
By supporting the status quo, you are supporting the murder of civilians involved in said status quo. No worries though, its not surprising from westerners. Been doing it for centuries now.
Did I say I support the status quo? No, I did not. But your "solution" is also not acceptable to me. I'd say the same damn thing if I ever found out that people who lived under the holocaust harmed random people in the streets of Germany. That is simply never justifiable. I would take my own life before I ever take the life of a noncombatant civilian who has personally done me no harm. That's something I could never live with, maybe you can.
Did I say I support the status quo? No, I did not.
You have opposed any change to the status quo. What else would that make you?
I’d say the same damn thing if I ever found out that people who lived under the holocaust harmed random people in the streets of Germany.
The resistance against Nazi Germany actually had far far more civilian casualties than Palestine’s resistance against Israel, despite the fact that the Palestinian cause has been ongoing for way longer. Did you really not know this? I must be misunderstanding you, or maybe you misspoke. I thought they teach about this extensively in the US
Gunmen chased fleeing revellers across the desert, shooting and snatching people
They moved people off the battle field and kept them hostage, yes. They did not target and shoot civilians, the IDF put the ravers in crossfire when they engaged the Palestinian resistance. There’s plenty of footage of the incident online, and none of it shows that. I’d be happy to be proven wrong; show me evidence. If all you have is “trust me bro” from the Israeli government and media, who have a proven track record of lying (and already admitted that they lied about this latest Hamas operation), then your claims are to be ignored.
The onus of responsibility lies on Israeli’s leadership and all that support the kinds of rulings and actions that have blurred the lines between combatant and non combatant.
Compulsory military service needs to go. Willing or unwilling, every citizen is forced into this conflict because they are required by law to do what their leadership asks them to, even if it means continuing the cycle of oppression. As we have seen with the Nuremberg trials, “Just following orders” is not an excuse.
There have also been numerous cases of the Israeli military protecting settlers in plains clothes as they commit terrorist acts against the indigenous populations. Doing so allows Israel to further its goal while officially creating plausible deniability for numerous humans rights violations.
These two factors alone heavily blur the lines between combatant and noncombatant, guilty and innocent, and fascist and non-fascist. It is very possible that this was done by design to force every Israeli citizen to have a stake in the conflict regardless of whether they want to. Israel knows Hamas does not have the luxury nor the technology to sift through potential targets to identify the legitimate ones. In a sense, the Zionist leadership is using the entirety of its population as a human-shield, and this placement of a civilian festivity near a military facility in a hot zone was a strategic one, such that when the legitimate target is attacked, others are caught in the cross-fire, and Israel can then use this to justify collectivepunishmentagainstinnocentcivilians.
Just as the reactionary Republicans who accuse the democrats of all sorts of foul play that’s in their playbook, this whole comment looks to me like projection.
Using the population as shields, by hiding weapons and militants in hospitals and schools is what the Palestinian combatants have done for years decades. Etc
You have a few points, the Israeli government has long been gone across any reasonable state of mind.
But the whole mindset you describe did not originate in Israel. This whole situation is waaay less one sided than you make it appear. And it changed significantly last weekend, initiated with a terror attack of unprecedented scale by the Hamas.
It’s crazy how people seem to think they have to take sides in an argument. It’s okay to say both sides are fucked up. There’s plenty of videos showing Israeli kids talking about how they want to kill the Arabs, and there was that whole ass Disney/sesame street knock-off in Palistine that sang about AK-47s.
For transparency, it appears they did eventually cancel the show, but I don’t know if it had to do with the content or the use of a very clearly Mickey Mouse-based character.
Edit: here’s the video. To correct myself, it seems to be a poem and not a song. I should also clarify I don’t speak Arabic, so I am relying on the provided subtitles.
Ok then let’s send better weapons to Hamas. I am sure they will be happy to precise target and hit all military installations. It’s kind of sad to see privileged people pointing out how someone else is supposed to fight the boot on their throat.
I think an apt comparison is Russia and Ukraine right now. I fully support Ukraine in this war, and part of that is not just because they’re the underdog who got unjustifiably invaded, but because they take care to avoid targetting innocent civilians. For example, when they strike Sevastopol, they strike military facilities, never residential areas. Whereas Russia intentionally terrorizes the Ukrainian people, kidnaps Ukrainian children, targets residential areas, and commits so frickin many war crimes.
If the attack by Hamas were against legitimate military targets, I don’t think there would be many people out here questioning it. But they didn’t. They are a fundamentalist religious group that wishes to commit genocide, and they intentionally targeted and mass-murdered civilians. Beyond that, by attacking a music festival, they targeted people who were statistically more likely to be sympathetic to their cause. Clearly their goal is not simply self defense, but genocide.
Also a good comparison is the PLO in West Bank, as they aren’t Hamas and had no hand in this attack. In fact, they and Hamas hate each other. And as far as I’m aware, PLO just wants the two-state solution and haven’t officially sanctioned terrorist attacks in ages. Unfortunately, Hamas has likely managed to discredit the PLO cause, despite them not having any guilt in this.
And as far as I’m aware, PLO just wants the two-state solution and haven’t officially sanctioned terrorist attacks in ages.
That’s… complicated. There is a fund that the PA pays the PLO to administer called the Palestinian Authority Martyrs Fund. It pays out stipends to the family of Palestinians who have been killed, imprisoned, or hurt while attacking Israel. This has been a point of contention for a long time, but it’s apparently very popular among Palestinians so politicians are loath to touch it.
no im not saying that, youre saying that. you are equating what israel has done for 75 years to mere reaction to that. you may not believe that hamas is not killing civilians on purpose and i cannot change that, but that does not change reality.
we have seen just war crimes over war crimes from israel just for the past few days. this is on top of decades of apartheid.
i could accept death for myself, too. but not for my daughter.
I was equating killing innocents with killing innocents, nothing else.
You are justifying mass punishment with …something about your daughter, and with that exposing exactly the attitude that keeps the region in a never ending cycle of death.
“2. Reaffirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for their independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial domination, apartheid and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle;” www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-184195/
war crimes:
Extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly;
Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;
Attacking or bombarding, by whatever means, towns, villages, dwellings or buildings which are undefended and which are not military objectives;
The transfer, directly or indirectly, by the Occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies, or the deportation or transfer of all or parts of the population of the occupied territory within or outside this territory;
Intentionally directing attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected, provided they are not military objectives;
Intentionally using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare by depriving them of objects indispensable to their survival, including wilfully impeding relief supplies as provided for under the Geneva Conventions; www.un.org/en/…/war-crimes.shtml
these are the ones that were committed in just few days.
israel displaced millions of palestinians and replaced them with settlers. the blood is on israel government not hamas. they could easily not replace millions of people and we would not be here today.
i have been saying the same thing from the beginning, but i think your perspective of the situation is holding you back from understanding what im saying.
you can put innocent people anywhere in the world and they dont stop being innocent. but that does not change the fact that they are in someone elses home illegally.
if they did not want to be in someone elses home then it is the fault of the government, if they did want to be in someome elses home then it is their fault.
Again, what’s the justification for killing innocents? Because they walk on land that another claims theirs? That sort of thinking always and everywhere only led to war and war crimes.
As for the Israelis, for those who live there, it’s their home, for many going back three generations. In many cases those ancestors took it it legally under ottoman law. I find that 24-undisputed-hour-rule questionable myself, but your story doesn’t hold up legally in many cases, nor historical. Everyone’s ancestors lived someplace. That doesn’t automatically make that place theirs.
Pointing to an old map and claiming the territory that another currently occupies never leads to peace.
Ok, so before 1918, the Ottomans had that piece of land for about 400 years. I guess that makes a turkish claim is older, and therefore stronger, by your logic, am I right?
Before that there was the Mamluks for 200 years, but that doesn’t seem an ethnicity that’s notable today, so let’s forget that.
Before that, the cruzaders had that land for 200 years, I suppose that means Europe also has an older claim.
Before that, Arabs for 400 years, so I see we’re back to their claim.
But hold on, before that, it was Roman territory for a whopping 700 years. That’s notable. Italia has a really good claim, I’d say.
But even before, there were the Jews there, and for close to a thousand years. So, following your logic the state Israel has all right to be there.
Before that there also lived people, of course, but it’s hard to pinpoint those to ethnicity. Egypt was there shortly. That’s an older claim even, but not very long.
Hmm. Are now all those people justified in killing innocents on some grounds that hasn’t been “theirs” for generations?
Look man, if your options are literally only “do nothing and accept your fate” or “kill a bunch of innocent people who never did anything to you and actually may have supported you” then maybe you should just give up and accept your fate, because we’re literally seeing how many more innocents are dying because of this. They didn’t put a dent in Israel’s defenses. They gave Israel more excuses to the international community to murder even more innocents. Great plan, Hamas. I’m glad it worked out so swimmingly and actually changed things instead of just continuing the same bullshit cycle. /s
If you can point to me out how this is going to result in anything other than more death and destruction, feel free to clue me in. Because fuck nothing has changed. They didn’t take out the people responsible. They didn’t change the power balance, and now even more Palestinians are paying the price because Israel is a fucked up aggressor.
Acting like a bad plan that resulted in more innocents deaths is some great blow against the establishment is dumb as fuck.
Exactly. It’s not a choice between “murder innocent civilians” and “do nothing”; it’s a choice between “murder innocent civilians” and “target legitimate targets such as the military apparatus that actually murders Palestinians regularly or the right-wing political apparatus that pursues a policy of military hyper-aggressiom, apartheid, and settler colonialism”.
If they chose to do the latter, I doubt nearly as many people would take issue with them, they’d receive vastly more sympathy, and they could finally end the systemic murder and oppression of Palestinians faster.
Hamas knows this. And they knew that Israel would respond with disproportionate force. They only care about destroying Israel and the Jews, per their charter, and they aren’t afraid to sacrifice as many Palestinian lives as it takes.
Maybe Russia got Iran to get Hamas to attack Israel knowing that Israel would go full scale, knowing that the USA is all in on Israeli support, thus reducing their aid to Ukraine?
Israel is genociding Palestinians, and Hamas is resisting them.
If innocents are caught in the crossfire of Hamas resisting, then Israel is to blame, not Hamas. Israel targets civilians, Hamas was targeting the military.
You mean the dance rave held at the gates of a concentration camp and active war zone? The one with many Israeli soldiers positioned and decided to skirmish the Palestinian resistance, and put the ravers in crossfire?
Arab Israeli population went from 1.5M to 2M since 2006
That’s because of their high birth rate. 45% of Palestinians are under the age of 15. The genocide numbers are very well documented, but I admire your bravery with genocide denial despite mountains of evidence.
It’s understandable too, how do you convince someone to stop fighting back so their enemy will stop punching them?
Like, remember when your parents told you that the best way to stop arguing with someone was to just stop arguing?
This is the same situation but instead of just arguing they’re literally committing war crimes and terrorist acts against each other.
Hard to say who started it in the moment when both are acting, and when everyone is acting in it frankly the who started it becomes irrelevant when there is only one good solution, for everyone to stop.
how do you convince someone to stop fighting back so their enemy will stop punching them?
Heck, part of it is you have to convince people to stop treating others as a monolith. Even the language of “their enemy will stop punching them” implies the entire populace of Israel is one monolith united in oppressing the Palestinians and that the entire population of Palestine is one monolith united in actively fighting Israel.
People need to be able to take a step back and recognize that their enemies are not the common folk, the innocent civilians. Most people just want to live their lives. Only a small minority is ever actually actively engaged in the fighting, or the political decisions to continue fighting.
Israelis (at least those that support Netanyahu and the apartheid state) need to collectively realize that having an apartheid state is not “fighting back”; it’s just punishing 99% innocents. Likewise, Hamas needs to realize that mass murdering civilians is not “fighting back”; it’s just punishing 99% innocents. True fighting back requires actually finding the people responsible for harming you, not ascribing blame to rando civilians just because they happen to have been born on the same side of the border as your true enemies.
…and you’re treated as culturally insensitive if you point out that it’s partially motivated because of two bullshit ass religions, and the reason they won’t stop is because they’ve each just got to prove their God has the bigger dick, even though they’re technically the same God.
But one side lives in suburbs and the other in an open-air prison, without medical supplies, under permanent drone surveillance, oh and every 5 years all the buildings get flattened.
slight difference here, while Hama’s goal is singular, to kill as many civilians as possible, israels goal is to abolish the hostile militia on it’s border, the civilians killed are a casualty of war, and not the target, once said militia uses civilians as human shields and commits all of these atrocities, you just can’t submit to their shields…
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