If you play ANY mobile-style, free-to-PAY game, you are helping to destroy gaming. That includes any exceptions you think exist.

NIB, 20 days ago (edited 20 days ago)

It seems someone lost their 50/50 gacha pull. Remember, 99% of gamblers stop just before they hit it big. Keep on gambling. You can only lose 100% of what you have but you can win an infinite amount of anime waifus, the math are clear on what you should do.

---

So you want people to play games that they enjoy less, over games that they enjoy more, because of the business model of said games?

Why dont you take it a step further. Why not make all mmorpgs illegal, since they use basic psychology, to make themselves addicting. Why do you like mmorpgs? Because number gets bigger and others can see that and it makes you feel good.

Real gamers play singleplayer games with no rpg elements. Everything else is exploitative and immoral. Paying a monthly subscription is modern day indentured servitude, ie slavery. You dont own the game, the game owns you.

OpenStars, 20 days ago

You might want to not play them then.🙃

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ChillDude69, 20 days ago

You might want to not play them then

Not good enough, in this case. The fact that other people are playing them IS helping to destroy the portion of the gaming industry that I do enjoy.

This is a fact. It is not up for debate.

OpenStars, 20 days ago

As you claim… in a community dedicated to debates 🙃.

ChillDude69, 20 days ago

Debates? Nah. Opinions.

There are exactly two words in the title of this community: “unpopular” and “opinion.”

Are you seeing the word “debate” in there, somewhere?

I mean, sure, I might debate in this community, if I feel like it. But right now, I don’t. And that’s absolutely fine.

dependencyinjection, 20 days ago

The fuck is your problem dude?

boatsnhos931, 20 days ago

What are your thoughts on the high seas?

ChillDude69, 20 days ago

When the purveyors of ocean services act like scurvy dogs, ye surely cannot be blamed for hoisting yer own flag, on the high seas.

Aatube, 20 days ago

I don't think it's possible to pirate live-service games.

Bruncvik, 20 days ago

I helped to destroy gaming by having kids. According to my game launcher, the last time I played a PC game I paid for was 3 years ago, and the game was published in 2011. So, having helped to destroy gaming already, I don’t give a flying fuck what people think of me for playing Crossmath on my phone while taking a dump, during the only opportunity when I’m not being disturbed.

ChillDude69, 20 days ago

I just looked up Crossmath. That’s an actual mobile game, the way mobile games are supposed to be.

You’re not spending your kids’ college fund on gacha pulls, trying to unlock a sexy outfit for the number 18.

So yeah, you carry on. You’re fine.

Godric, 20 days ago

Me enjoying Shattered PixelDungeon:

HubertManne, 20 days ago

thanks. Ive never played but ill give em a go.

mindbleach, 20 days ago

Ban the entire business model. Nothing inside a video game should cost real money.

It’s fundamentally abusive - games make you value arbitrary nonsense. That’s what makes them games. There is no ethical form of monetizing that fiction. The software can steer you toward paying for whatever it can offer. As much money as you’ll tolerate, for the least value. Fake hats priced like real whole games are the example people treat like a defense.

jacodt, 20 days ago

What about people that pre order games? Or people that buy each version of Madden or Fifa? Or people that buy games regardless of rootkits like Denuvo? Are you going to call them all evil for supporting companies with dubious practices? For daring to buy games they like? You don’t get to tell people what they should do with their money or time to be “moral”. In fact, I could just as well argue that to spend any money whatsoever on computer games is evil while there are people starving out there.

ChillDude69, 20 days ago (edited 20 days ago)

What about people that pre order games? Or people that buy each version of Madden or Fifa? Or people that buy games regardless of rootkits like Denuvo? Are you going to call them all evil for supporting companies with dubious practices? For daring to buy games they like?

I have no problem with any of that. You’re putting words in my mouth. I actually think pre-ordering has a really good place in the activist buyer toolkit. Pre-order from companies who haven’t burned you. Stop pre-ordering if they do burn you. It’s a means of incentivizing good behavior. Make companies acutely aware that they have reputations that are either constantly at risk or needing to be mended, and there are always economic consequences for how they maintain those reputations.

Like someone pointed out, the problem with the mobile-style business model is that the developers are forced to put roadblocks in front of your progress through the game and/or invalidate that progress. That’s where I draw the line. When the basic gameplay loop is based around the default setting of “it takes forever to do everything,” and you can buy your way out of that, as long as you keep pumping money into the game…well, that’s not okay.

There can’t be any kind of good or acceptable way to run that model. It’s outrageously harmful. And those “let’s milk the players for a little more, every day” practices have become normalized to the point that they are showing up in games that supposedly aren’t mobile-style pay-for-everything games. Like, look at some racing games, these days. They used to just have all the cars unlocked when you started the game, or maybe you’d unlock them as you progressed through the campaign mode.

But now, there are plenty of racing games where LOTS of the cars are just locked behind microtransaction paywalls. I don’t think I’m out of line for suggesting that we should try and stop this shit, before it gets worse. Remember: at least one game company exec has proposed a future where we have to buy in-game ammunition with real money. Not in mobile-style games. Not in free-to-download games. In real, full-price games.

jacodt, 20 days ago

My issue isn’t really with your argument, though I personally find pre-ordering to be as bad as this pay to win crap. (But I don’t feel passionately enough about that point to debate it - I concede that an activist buyer could leverage that)

However, I do have issue with you calling people who spend money on micro transactions evil. Or immoral. I find that sentiment to be ridiculous and trivialising actual evil behaviour.

I know about the story where some idiot executive suggested paying a dollar to reload or something stupid like that. If you called the companies evil, or the executives… you know what… I might support that allegation. But the players? The customers?

I think I get why you are saying this - you believe the players enable/allow the companies to do this, thereby supporting their evil ways. I just don’t agree that buying a product (especially an entertainment product) from such a company is necessarily (and to use your word: literally) evil.

Say I agree that these players are evil. Should I now stop being friends with people once I learn they play Genshin? Should I shun them? Tell my sister I can no longer visit them because she allows her kids to play Genshin and Fortnite?

What about people paying subscriptions to streaming services that produce crap content? Or people that followed reality tv to the extent that it allowed the Kardashians to exist?

So apologies for this long reply, I guess my only real point is that while I agree with you that the behaviour of these (mobile game) companies is deplorable (to me), if people willingly spend their money on it, that is none of my business. I can vote with my wallet by buying games from studios I like.

Just like I dislike gambling and casinos, I would never call people that frequent those establishments immoral or evil.

ChillDude69, 20 days ago

I think there’s a fundamental misunderstanding, here. I didn’t ever intend to call the customers I disagreed with evil. Maybe I technically said that, at some point. Maybe without intending it, at all.

That’s not what I’m intending to say. I am intending to vehemently state that mobile-style game monetization models are evil. Furthermore, they represent an existential threat to the entire gaming hobby.

There are possible futures where this shit snowballs into another gaming industry crash, like the one back in '83. And this one would be even more preventable. We’re drowning in excellent technology, which has the potential to bring gaming to more people than ever. But that tech is being misused and abused, and so are the players.

jacodt, 20 days ago

So that argument I can support. However, while I do share your dismay with things as things stand, I am somewhat more optimistic. For instance, it is my belief that recent successes from BG3 and Eldenring for instance has shown companies that a significant market still exists for … let’s call it … traditional games where the model is simply you pay money for a complete game that is great.

Now this obviously works for single player games but even there we see the encroachment you refer to. For instance there was some controversy on Dragons Dogma 2 for instance. (Fortunately turns out most of those items can be acquired in game but the micro transactions presence still irritates me).

Personally I think a bigger threat to the industry is exemplified by Bethesda. Starfield was a pathetic game in my opinion. Lazy writing. Bad tech. Overpriced junk. And I believe that the advancement in AI is going to make it 10 times worse - bland AI written plots and NPCs… AI generated textures and models.

Maybe I shouldn’t say threat to the industry. More a threat to the part of the industry I care most about, which is single player RPGs.

So I guess my question would now be… why do you believe that the crappy monetisation practices of these mobile gaming pay to win companies would bring the industry as a whole down?

Would people not just move to the next game? And is this not something we already see with the success of say Eldenring/BG3?

ChillDude69, 20 days ago

why do you believe that the crappy monetisation practices of these mobile gaming pay to win companies would bring the industry as a whole down?

Well, let’s look at Starfield. I don’t hate it nearly as much as you do, but I definitely agree it has flaws. But now imagine that some of these hyper-monetization practices had invaded it, on top of the other problems. Like, if you had to do some horrible grind to get fuel for your ship, unleeeesssssss you wanted to pay for some Bethesda Bux, to make that process go faster.

And now imagine almost every other single player RPG game has similar shit, crammed into it. Say anything you want about Todd Howard, I do think he would fight tooth and nail to prevent such a thing. And so would every other traditional RPG developer. But they don’t really own their companies, anymore. They’ve all had to sell out to bigger entities, to keep putting food on the tables of their employees. And even the ones who remain independent aren’t entirely above the pressures of the publishers.

So imagine that they can’t hold the flood back anymore, and the mobile-style ultra-monetization shit gets into all the RPG games, even more into every online FPS game, into all the single player FPSes and Boomer Shooters, even somehow into sidescrolling platformers and Metroidvanias. And adventure games. And every other genre you can think of.

If all the major releases become completely overburdened with this shit, people might just decide “welp, I’m out. I’m leaving the hobby.”

That could cause a crash. Hopefully, true indie games could pull us out of the spiral, but I’m not sure of that. Especially in a scenario like I’m talking about. If there was a real exodus of millions of players, away from gaming, the industry would have to contract massively. Then all those devs who are currently employed by major studios would found a bunch of little indie studios. Some people would applaud that as an unalloyed benefit, but they would all be competing for a much smaller pool of money, and maybe none of them would be able to remain solvent.

So, again, you get the potential for a devastating crash.

jacodt, 20 days ago

Ok. So if I understand your argument correctly you are saying that the financial success of Genshin et al would prompt other publishers to force the studios they own to implement these monetisation strategies.

And this leads to players like you and me leaving the hobby. (Not that I know what else I would do… but anyways) But who knows… maybe people growing up with this sort of thing is fine with it… which might not then crash the industry but just leaves us with shitty games.

Maybe we are in the minority. Maybe millions won’t leave it and it is just you and me taking up stamp collecting or something.

Other than CDPR… I wouldn’t be very upset if a crash in the industry causes some AAA studios to cease to be. The scenario you sketched with more indie studios rising sounds kinda nice actually.

Nature dislikes a vacuum. If the industry crashes because of overzealous monetisation practices I am sure studios with somewhat more competent executives (like say Larian) would jump on the chance to produce content players want.

Then again… it is not like the rise of reality tv lead to the sudden generation of lots of great tv shows from indie studios. So I guess you have a point.

ChillDude69, 20 days ago

The TV industry is a great parallel example. Like it or not, TV also needs the large money investors to keep the entire thing afloat. Sure, if the proliferation of ludicrously high streaming service prices continues and causes a contraction in that industry, a lot of actors and writers and production crew could try and get together to make YouTube content, but it would be a similar splitting of everyone into little channels, where none of them actually have enough revenue to really sustain true TV-style production.

I think the “nature abhors a vacuum” principle could work beneficially, in terms of another reset, after a crash. But if we had to restart the console market from scratch, that would be much more difficult now than it was back in the 80s.

mindbleach, 20 days ago

Are you going to call them all evil for supporting companies with dubious practices?

Yeah.

For daring to buy games they like?

For funding rootkits, you dishonest fuck. ‘You just don’t like it!’ is intolerable trolling, in nearly any context, but you’re using it to ignore your own reasons. You just described the problem - two sentences prior.

You absolutely get to judge whether people act morally. Telling people what they should do is what morality fucking means! Go right ahead and ply your children-in-Africa argument; that was always allowed. But why the hell do you type words on the internet if you don’t know that arguments are an effort to compel change?

lakemalcom10, 20 days ago

This thread is so fascinating. I agree with the OP 100% and it’s so strange to me to see the arguments against them.

Like, games as designed now are predatory. My kids get a game and are bombarded with shiny ways to extract more money.

OP’s point on MMOs is that they provide servers and that means a monthly subscription and the only way (originally) to get stuff was to grind.

ChillDude69, 20 days ago (edited 20 days ago)

To expand on that last point, the original MMO grind was also supposed to be fun and interesting, in and of itself. It wasn’t everyone’s cup of tea, but the original grind wasn’t a roadblock in the way of progress. It WAS the progress.

As someone else very eloquently pointed out, the problem with the new mobile-style model is that “the developers ARE REQUIRED TO INVALIDATE your progress in some way.”

That’s exactly the center of the point that I’m making. That shit isn’t fixable. There is no way for there to be a good or acceptable game that uses that model.

And I think that’s why I’ve bristled so much, when people are like “uhh, could you cite some examples?”

Like I said in that other comment: that’s like if I said “being hit in the hand with a sledgehammer causes injury” and people were like “hmmm, could you supply some evidence for this claim?”

Saying “fuck off” to that request isn’t ME being intellectually dishonest. It’s THEM being trollish for even asking some shit like that. It’s some Elon Musk level shit.

Mobile-style free-to-pay monetization models are simply harmful. Period. Exactly like a sledgehammer to the knuckles.

Some people might be legit masochists and like being whacked on the hands with hammers, but that doesn’t change the basic facts.

Daxtron2, 20 days ago

There’s a lot less overlap between mobile and non-mobile than you think. I agree that these are trash business practices and we shouldn’t support it.

Eric5949, 20 days ago

Then learn how to make good games.

Raffster, 20 days ago

Again I find myself on your side ChillDude… 100% with you on this one.

Chadus_Maximus, 20 days ago

The biggest issue with this monetization model is that the developers ARE REQUIRED TO INVALIDATE your progress in some way. When a person buys everything they need and still plays the game, their only contribution is literally stealing bandwidth. Unless they’re contributing to some external resource.

Being treated like that is extremely dehumanizing so I can’t in good conscience put any money in these kinds of games.

ChillDude69, 20 days ago

The biggest issue with this monetization model is that the developers ARE REQUIRED TO INVALIDATE your progress in some way

THIS IS EXACTLY THE POINT THAT I SHOULD HAVE BEEN MAKING.

This is why it’s categorically impossible for there to be any “good” examples of these games. As long as they’re following this model, they can’t be okay and they must be boycotted by anyone who gives a shit about games.

I think this is why I was so frustrated, when people were asking me for examples of this model fucking shit up. It’s not about specific examples. Examples aren’t needed. There simply isn’t any way for this shit to be anything other than harmful.

It’s like if I said “getting whacked on the thumb with a sledgehammer will cause injury” and people were like “uhhh, could you cite some examples of this claim being true?”

Like, no. Just no. It’s fucking obvious. Asking for citations to prove that obvious harm is harmful is intellectually dishonest.

Good_morning, 20 days ago

I’ve got a great example of what you described (not to be confused with good) There’s a mobile game called “Hooked inc.” I installed it on a whim while looking for something to similar to an old PC game I used to play. I played until things slowed down and to really progress in a timely manner you needed to spend the paid currency, but you can acquire it slowly by watching ads. So I did for a bit. Had the idea of an auto clicker macro so it could accumulate while I sleep, put an android emu on my laptop and did that until I discovered that the creator hadn’t anticipated keyboard access and had left in some shortcuts (presumably for testing). One button , i, u, or l maybe, gave you a skill point to spend, another gave a spin of the wheel without watching any ads. I maxed out the skill points and set a macro to constantly spin the wheel. Bought all the passive bonus characters and leveled them up, got tons of the rare items and leveled them. Made it significantly farther. Did a little math to see how long it would take to finish grinding out passive bonus levels and experience to get further. It would take days or weeks of spinning. Made me really feel bad for those watching ads thinking it’ll help them make some progress. Uninstalled the game a couple years, reinstalled to see if my “progress” has been wiped. Nope, but with all of the additions it felt rather insignificant. They’d added more grindy ad mechanics.

Sorry for the novel, Tldr for these games you can watch ads nonstop for weeks and have nothing to show for it. Better off uninstalling.

ChillDude69, 20 days ago

This is exactly what I’m talking about. And honestly, if it had just remained on the mobile platform, I could dismiss it. Like, “well, people are free to waste their time and/or money.”

But these new games like “Honky Stair Rail” and “Getshit Implants” are available on PC and consoles. They’re moving into territory that has traditionally been occupied by less hyper-monetized games. That means the developers of traditional games will be feeling more and more pressure to add hyper-monetization features into their games.

It’s scary. As I’ve mentioned, that could eventually lead to a second video game industry crash.

Good_morning, 20 days ago

Right, it’s invaded games in a big way, all the big shooters like COD & Fortnite are basically cosmetic stores pushing micro transactions and battle passes. Now games are built with features paywalled and the only updates after launch are adding paid cosmetics.

dependencyinjection, 20 days ago

OP spent their wages on Genshin and is pissed.

Skyline969, 20 days ago

My guy, you are the antithesis of your own username. If you wanna change minds you need to change your angle. Facts. Data. Not just “I’m right and you’re wrong, no I will not explain further.” All that’s gonna do is make people cling to their beliefs even stronger. So really, you’re making the problem worse without playing the games yourself. Congratulations.

Shadowedcross, 20 days ago

I feel like this guy must have some mental health issues or a disorder, and they either haven’t been diagnosed or they aren’t being treated properly. He doesn’t seem like a troll because he’s putting way too much effort into it, but his behaviour’s way too strange for a mentally stable, neurotypical person.

Skyline969, 20 days ago

You’re absolutely right. This screams autism to me as a ND person myself.

Shadowedcross, 20 days ago

That was my initial thought as well. I’m not sure about my own neurotypicality since I haven’t started the process of diagnosis yet, but my partner has autism and I couldn’t help but see some similarities between her past behaviour and this guy’s current behaviour. I can only hope he gets the help he needs, if he does indeed need it.

GreenAlex, 20 days ago

I mean for sure these games are bad for the industry but I don't think it's a moral failing for people to play them. The reality is that companies have learned how to manipulate and ease worse practices into games over time. It sucks that a notable number of people have fallen for it but accusing individuals of being at fault (especially here) isn't going to change the industry.

ChillDude69, 20 days ago

for sure these games are bad for the industry

Yes. I’m glad you agree.

I don’t think it’s a moral failing for people to play them.

No, it DEFINITELY is. Willingly helping to pervert and destroy a formerly constructive industry is immoral. Players and developers will all suffer, if this shit isn’t stopped.

Also, the industry is already changing. You haven’t noticed the price of traditional non-free-to-pay games rising, recently? You think that’s entirely unrelated to this shit? The dollars that are going into the gacha hole are being sucked out of the traditional model. That’s pressuring the traditional publishers to raise unit prices.

GreenAlex, 20 days ago

I'm not about to tell anybody they're evil for playing a game like this and not knowing any better. If you really wanna change people's habits, you'd be better off showing them what a better game can be. Even then, they could legitimately prefer their gachas or be addicted. I think that's pretty crazy but there's only so much one can do.

The AAA price increase was mostly just wanting more money and using inflation as an excuse. They're not necessarily hurting because of f2p games. Well made traditional games still sell but often times the big publishers put out unfinished crap or overload their full-price games with monetization anyways. Those may be hurt financially. Meanwhile, games like Elden Ring and BG3 have done extremely well.

The pressure to change needs to be put on the companies, not the individuals. What the individual mostly needs is awareness.

FfaerieOxide, 20 days ago

I'm not about to tell anybody they're evil for playing a game like this and not knowing any better.

But once you've told them they're evil, they know better.

The pressure to change needs to be put on the companies

I'd call whittling away their player base pressure on the company.

ChillDude69, 20 days ago

What the individual mostly needs is awareness.

Awareness, you say?

Like people making posts about this situation?

I mean, there are several people in this thread who didn’t realize how popular and widespread these recent mobile-style games had become.

Yeah. Awareness. Kinda makes sense, now that YOU MENTION IT.

EDIT: maybe you need some awareness, yourself. One of the things that radicalized me enough to make this post is a survey I saw, where one of the anime bitches from these games was being voted as one of the most influential female video game characters of the current century.

These games are now major influences, in the world. They are raking in vast amounts of money and huge portions of mindshare. I’m not being hyperbolic.

GreenAlex, 20 days ago

Awareness is good but berating your average Joe is not the way to make any kind of systemic change. It will make them not listen to you or even actively work against you.

ChillDude69, 20 days ago

I get what you’re saying. I haven’t been exactly displaying ideal form, here.

I think what set me off is how some of these people responding are just being intellectually dishonest. The industry-harming, anti-consuming practices I’m talking about ARE definitely harmful. But people are like “hmm, could you cite some examples?”

It’s like if I said “being hit on the hand with a sledgehammer causes injury,” and jackasses came crawling out of the woodwork, doing their best smug-ass Elon Musk impressions: “hmmm. Interesting, if true. Can you cite some examples of this phenomenon?”

It’s bloody fucking obvious that a hammer to the knuckles is bad for you. It’s equally obvious that mobile-style milk-the-customer-for-everything-and-fuck-the-actual-gameplay software development practices are harmful.

Playing along with intellectually dishonest people isn’t something ANYBODY should feel obligated to do. It’s arguably something to be avoided.

GreenAlex, 20 days ago

Makes sense. I definitely feel the same frustration sometimes and think it's insane when people actively defend practices like these or try to sweep the problem under the rug.

ChillDude69, 20 days ago

I really find it disturbing that a couple of the comments have an “okay, Boomer” flavor to them.

Well, yeah, no shit. This IS coming from a place of “back in my day…”

Yeah, I do remember a time when games weren’t as horrifically monetized as they are becoming. But the difference between me and the average pathological Boomer is that I AM ON THE SIDE OF THE YOUNGER PEOPLE. I’m advocating for them to have the good experiences that I have had.

I don’t want them to be fucked over, stripped of their money, and abused by the corporate fuck-machine. It’s disheartening to basically get a response that feel like: “whatever, old guy. I’m happy paying hundreds of dollars for a handful of .png files of anime tiddies.”