Weekly General Discussion - July 02, 2023 <-> July 09, 2023

_treebeard_, 9 months ago (edited 9 months ago)

For the weekly doots livestream today (Friday, July 7) we'll be joined by Frisson from Tally, an on-chain DAO framework. To listen in and participate, join the EVMavericks Discord at 12pm EST (4pm UTC+0) in the #public-voice channel, or follow along on YouTube!

If you want to help support the work being done to make these livestreams a reality, consider minting the POAP for this week. All proceeds go to those helping out with the stream.

anon, 10 months ago (edited 10 months ago)

I thought today (July 5) might be the day we break $2K, but we didn’t and we seem to be receding right now.

Which leads me to ask, having lost sight of the /r/ethfinance pulse:

What’s this community’s sentiment with regard to the next few months? Are we still stuck in a foreseeably long bear? Are we at the cusp of a crypto spring? Are there trigger points (such as the Blackrock ETF’s approval, or the XRP verdict) that you think must happen before this is even decidable?

spez: thank you for the replies. I love that among four replies, one says surge up, one says crab sideways, and one says drop back down to the local low.

refugeddit, 10 months ago

Spring/bull is imminent IMO. Price action seems to support it. I am not saying that we won't get another major leg down, but I think we have bottomed for now. We can range here until most people reach apathy (I'm mostly here) and then slowly surge upwards (I think we're near here)

fiah, 10 months ago

I think we’ll be going sideways for a while still, but without anything tangible to base that on

haddockseyes, 10 months ago

If I'm remembering right, @kbrot believes the Nasdaq is likely to correct around 10% in the next few months following its huge gains in the first half of the year, and eth could retest $1400 or lower around October.

LaughingMime, 10 months ago (edited 10 months ago)

Slow grind up still, but most of the volume are existing holders playing musical chairs with their holdings.

When the music stops, don’t get caught holding the wrong narrative. Right now the right thing is defi, it changes with the wind.

There isn’t enough retail yet imo for a bull market this year, hope I’m wrong 😅

kbrot, 9 months ago

Echoing @laughingmime... it's gotta come with volume. There's just nothing there right now. It can be a pump or a dump, but something's gotta give. No one outside the holders cares about crypto right now sadly. It'll return though. It always does.

concernedcustomer33, 10 months ago

Should I EigenLayer?

I'm having a hard time deciding if I should point one of my validators at an EigenPod, and I'd appreciate some input.

I've been thinking about this for weeks. I went through all the documentation, created a pod, and have a json file ready to set my withdrawal address for a single validator (I still have 0x00 credentials, because I don't want to declare my reward income yet, and the process of changing credentials is frankly terrifying).

In contrast to LST restaking, native restaking on EigenLayer has been slow to gain traction. As of this writing, 134 validators have signed up, out of an expected initial cohort of approximately 300. Based on Sreeram's recent Bankless panel participation, I believe those fewer than 300 brave (stupid?) souls will receive a significant airdrop in the future, and may have privileged access to lucrative opportunities.

I'm honestly torn. If there's a problem with the BeaconProxy contract, losing a validator would suck, but it wouldn't significantly damage my crypto prospects. Part of me thinks EigenLayer is a grave threat to Ethereum, and should be shunned. Another part of me is excited about the possibility of being among the first to participate in something genuinely innovative.

What say you, fam? I'm leaning toward broadcasting the message. It should be an interesting journey, even if it ends in disaster

anon, 10 months ago

I’m personally sitting this one out. I’ve watched Sreeram’s lectures and I share some excitement about the innovative concept of Eigenlayer. I can see that the additional degree of abstraction that it brings creates novel use cases that cleverly leverage Ethereum’s consensus protocol.

But I’ve also chosen to forego some yield by solo-staking instead of playing the LST game because I want what’s best not just for myself, but for the Ethereum network of which I consider myself a modest but principled steward.

For now, I’m applying the same cautious logic to Eigenlayer. I may be foregoing some hypothetical future airdrops and extra yield, but I won’t rush into something so fresh that its impact is not yet fully understood. Like you, the risk of slashing my own node is not even my main concern; the risk of subverting the network is.

The most neutral advice I can give is to read Vitalik’s post on the topic if you haven’t done so already (https://vitalik.ca/general/2023/05/21/dont_overload.html) and decide how much risk the restaking use case you’re considering brings to Ethereum.

refugeddit, 10 months ago

I have the exact same viewpoint. Hopefully the coredevs design the protocol such that this behaviour is discouraged if it really does bring a net negative effect to the network. Can't expect all participants to be foregoing yields in the long run.

fiah, 10 months ago

if you’re already apprehensive about changing the credentials at all, then I don’t get why you’re even considering pointing them at the eigenlayer smart contract which should be infinitely more scary. But if it interests you and losing a validator wouldn’t completely sink you, then why not do it for 1 validator? It won’t expose the rest of your stack

personally I’m too risk averse to deal with eigenlayer at this time, I like the idea of restaking but the way it works right now feels a bit to wonky and thorny

anon, 10 months ago

Here’s an interesting thread (on Twitter, unfortunately) about the centralization risks of restaking: https://twitter.com/0xidanlevin/status/1675866647800709127

fiah, 9 months ago

dba.mirror.xyz/LYUb_Y2huJhNUw_z8ltqui2d6KY8Fc3t_c…

some light sunday morning reading about how what you thought you knew about rollups is probably not entirely true

Diligent-Mouse3679, 9 months ago

The author makes a lot of points that have little practical impact.

I mean, sure, a rollup could hardfork. But it would wipe out the value of any assets that were bridged into the old version of the rollup from the parent chain. What would Optimism or Arbitrum be if all the previously bridged eth and usdc was now stuck on a version of the rollup that was dead? There's no point.

The same thing is true regarding his point about 'rollups' that don't do any on chain validation (zk or optimistic fault proofs). Sure, you could post all your rollup blocks into 4844 blobs and only verify them off chain if you want. But if you want to bridge any assets back and forth, having on chain validation or fault proving of the rollup adds a ton of extra security to that process.

The other thing that he misses on is the idea of one way bridges that burn the asset in the original chain. Such an approach just makes for worthless assets on the rollup. If the original asset can't ever be withdrawn and redeemed, it is effectively worthless. So, again, it would be pointless.

Anyway, I found myself realizing about 1/3 of the way through that the author isn't technically wrong about anything, but is still really missing the point.

btoast777, 10 months ago

Sorry for the rant-y doomer post, so feel free to skip, but amidst the recent "Threads" news (as well as some other things like the whole Reddit debacle, and some dumb AI stuff), I've given up trying to advocate anything on the open or decentralized front to my peers. They only care about UX and literally nothing else.

It actually has me pretty bearish on what we try to do here in Ethereum-land as well. If normal people are only ever going to flock to centralized services (especially those who've been known to cause harm historically) because it "just works on their iPhone" or "is 100% free no matter what", and they've already been conditioned to hate (and I mean hate from what I've seen from my peers) crypto by all of the scammers and the media, how can we possibly win people over at this point? If the answer is "with the tech" like we've been saying for the past X years, will the UX ever be genuinely good enough to get people to care?

We've all been conditioned over the past couple of decades to be used to the amenities of unsustainable services, and are so used to consuming content in general, that the only viable "alternatives" on the internet for the vast majority of people is to go back and forth amongst the tech giants who can afford to subsidize their free services via their other offerings, or sell and feed users' data to the ever-growing array of AI modals, who will in turn consistently churn out "content" that displaces all of the creators, writers, artists, video editors, etc. who need these social services in the first place to get work in the online gig economy.

Unsustainable service then implodes, people flock to the next fancy unsustainable giant-controlled service, and then we repeat again.

And GOOD LUCK trying to get any of these people to conceptually understand DeFi and the like in 2023, let alone feel empowered enough to use it to the extent they do with what they're used to today. Sign in with Ethereum? Nah, Apple lets me sign in to every site now with just my iPhone; it's wayyyyy easier than that. And crypto wallets? Nahhhh, Venmo is super easy AND I can send things with silly funny emojis!

Idk, times like these make me feel silly for doubling-down and validating on Ethereum instead of just selling back in 2021; heck, I could've retired 30 years early, lol. I like to think I'm trying to help make the world a better, and more open + equitable place by helping keep the proverbial lights on as the bigger brains build, but it feels like the time to do anything with massive impact past niche market segments has passed, and I genuinely don't know, with the current state of things + tech, what the online world is going to look like in 20, or even 10 years. At this rate, it's not looking good.

/end rant. I'm just so tired. :P

newtosh, 9 months ago

Good rant!

permissionless, 10 months ago

You're not wrong. I agree that public sentiment is abysmal and trying to talk to somebody about the merits of decentralization suddenly makes you a crypto bro. On the other hand, the bar is so, so low, that small improvements over time, such as UX development, can be really valuable. And large improvements, like the Merge, are a great way to combat misinformation if you find yourself in a conversation with a crypto hater.

fiah, 10 months ago

solid rant. Ethereum is just the base layer, nobody has to ask permission to build on top of it, so if a killer app does get built on Ethereum there’s no telling what it will be (unless you’re a visionary like that). Like you said though, it’ll probably be something corporate/VC sponsored with a slick UX that hides its Ethereum roots, and it’ll probably implode and be replaced by the next similar thing in a few years. It won’t do anything for the privacy or self sufficiency its users, but it will boost the value of the Ethereum base layer so that’s fine I guess. But actually open and decentralized applications that can properly take advantage of the security of Ethereum, I don’t think that will ever get mainstream adoption unless said corporate giants think it’s to their advantage to facilitate access to it and create a slick UX for it. And given the open / decentralized nature of what we wish would happen, that’s very unlikely

thanksbrother, 9 months ago

Agreed across the board. Good friends of mine that would ideologically align on most issues could not give less of a shit about any of this.

NFTs are a joke to almost everybody, Crypto is just FTX and/or a pyramid scheme to them and a source of some of the most annoying people on Twitter. There is no value in any of this for anybody but the most stubbornly ideological / anti-bank nerds. When it was easy money, it pulled in some normies. Now nobody cares. People are happy to use threads, Instagram, Facebook, Wells Fargo, etc. and I’m not arguing with any of them.

jbm, 9 months ago

Me too homie. I'm so damn tired. If only a long time member of this community made something with a good UX and sign in with Ethereum just for this community, just for those reasons. sigh...

Veltoss, 10 months ago

You’re not wrong. This push to decentralize gives me some hope, but even many of the pro-decentralization people mindlessly hate blockchain technology because it’s what they were conditioned to do. They can’t even begin to argue their belief but god damn do they believe it strongly.

I don’t have a lot of faith in the future of the internet or social media. I think it’s going to continue to fracture. We’ll have the centralized internet, and the decentralized internet on the fringes that the rest of us live on.

The people on the centralized services will spend all day complaining about all the awful things the centralized services do while hating on the decentralized services that fix all the things they want fixed, because that’s what they’re going to be conditioned/brainwashed to think. People are too easily tricked and misinformed, and not educated against it, for modern social media. It’s just too fucking easy to manipulate people.

Diligent-Mouse3679, 9 months ago

I get the feeling. I've been a linux desktop user for 20 years now, waiting for people to see the light. But, sadly they don't, for all kinds of reasons.

And I've made peace with that.

Because things like linux, or ethereum, or the fediverse don't need huge, widespread adoption to succeed. They need a core of serious, dedicated folks willing to keep pushing it forward while it's presence in the market acts as a very real check on the centralized and walled off ecosystems.

And eventually, the core of what's been built will end in up in consumers hands and running their servers in the background, and will gain billions of oblivious users.

hanniabu, 9 months ago

The 3 thing's that keep me from using ubuntu as my every day machine is there's like 3 or 4 different ways to install app and only one of them is easy but apps are rarely distributed that way, the directory structure makes it difficult to find app files, and the UI feels unpolished like most open source apps/websites.

anon, 10 months ago (edited 9 months ago)

I guess two things need to happen so we can get out of this rut in the technology cycle.

One, the Web3 developers and contributors need to shed their engineering mindset and start getting preoccupied with UX and ease of adoption. As you mentioned, we’re not going to convert the market to embrace the tech for tech’s sake; the onus is on us to adapt to the market’s expectations that “it just works”. That’s the Apple model and there’s a ton of money to be made for those who crack that magic formula.

Second, but related to the first point, is that the tech needs to take a backseat and become an invisible layer. No mass market user needs to even know that their next-gen Venmo or SSO is settled on, or powered by, the Ethereum network. We as a community want our champion L1 network to get the name recognition we think it deserves, but the reality is that just like no average user cares about TCP/IP or even knows about it, our own tech needs to efface itself and be a silent enabler of higher-level apps and use cases.

haddockseyes, 10 months ago

Finally!! https://www.coindesk.com/business/2023/06/29/canadian-etf-issuer-3iq-to-work-with-coinbase-to-offer-eth-staking-in-its-funds/

T0Bii, 10 months ago

Is anyone visiting from a lemmy instance, if yes which one?

I've found some very interesting UIs for lemmy, but on the instances that I checked, ethfinance@kbin.social couldn't be found.

Old reddit Ui for lemmy: https://mlmym.org/lemmy.world/
Apollo Ui for lemmy: https://wefwef.app/posts/lemmy.world/all

Apparently there are some issues with the ddos protection of kbin.social that hinders federation.

Veltoss, 10 months ago

I’m just using lemmy.world’s default website UI and it seems alright, haven’t had any trouble with it from the apps I’ve tried either.

fiah, 10 months ago

yep, I’m visiting from discuss.tchncs.de

It took quite a while for the federation to be as reliable as it is now

oxyeth, 10 months ago

What's everybody using for gasprices nowadays? It looks like gasprice.io has joined the long list of now dead gas prediction tools.

cryptOwOcurrency, 10 months ago

https://etherscan.io/gastracker

oxyeth, 10 months ago

What I liked was being able to see the history of the gas price. That helped me to decide on a price for transactions that were not time sensitive. It's nice to now that the low price now is 24 gwei, but if it's been 12 all week, then why pay 24?

I'm cheap like that..

fiah, 10 months ago

scary to see how many people are willingly signing up for another Meta privacy nightmare. And then there are even people defending it in the fediverse, like as if Meta isn’t gunning to destroy us ASAP

SilentJohn, 10 months ago

People don't care. They just want to scroll their friends feeds.

anon, 10 months ago

I think embracing and valuing the principles of FOSS, decentralization, anonymity, privacy, ownership of one’s digital identity and data, online security, etc. requires a degree of technological literacy that most people don’t possess. For most online citizens today who’ve only ever known the current centralized Web 2.0 through the glass of a mobile device, convenience trumps those principles even when you explain their value to them.

The Meta crowd and the Fediverse crowd are not two perfect distinct sets - more like a Venn diagram with some inevitable overlap.

fiah, 10 months ago

yep, agreed. I think there should be a public education effort (like billboards / PSAs) to impress upon the general public what kinds of dangers there are in handing their information and social media presence over to large corporations. We’ve already seen a bit of that in response to tiktok

anon, 10 months ago (edited 10 months ago)

A bit meta, but in parallel to migrating to Kbin, I also started playing with the news aggregator https://news.kiwistand.com/, which is a Hacker News clone for Web3.

As I understand it, a key difference from HN, though, is that Kiwi is an open protocol for submitting and upvoting links. It does not contain identity management features nor the ability to store comments and replies. All you can do, as a user, is connect your Ethereum address to post and upvote links. You also need one ERC-721 Kiwi NFT in your wallet to have the ability to post.

Clients are then free to build their own commenting system (similar to Kbin or Lemmy) on top of the Kiwi protocol. Those clients may store comments data on the blockchain (e.g., an L2) or on a traditional server instance (federated or otherwise), and they may use Web3 authentication, e.g. Metamask or SIWE.

I thought this community might be interested given the Web3 focus and the openness of the protocol. Read more at https://paragraph.xyz/@kanfa/what-is-kiwi (disclaimer: I have zero affiliation to this project).

SilentJohn, 10 months ago

interesting. I never quite liked HN (honestly I didn't even know it still existed), but this seems interesting. No comments/discussion though, just link aggregation...

anon, 10 months ago

Since it’s Web3 related, we could post the most relevant links in this community for discussion!

SilentJohn, 10 months ago

Wonder why they call it kiwi news. Makes it seem like some local New Zealand news outlet lol

haddockseyes, 10 months ago

Could be interesting in the long term: https://phys.org/news/2023-07-quantum-physicists-unconditionally-digital-payments.html

refugeddit, 10 months ago

Any idea what this VMPX token that's picking up activity in the network?

https://etherscan.io/token/0xb48eb8368c9c6e9b0734de1ef4ceb9f484b80b9c

permissionless, 10 months ago

As fireworks explode around me, I'm dreaming about a time in the future when Ethereum itself will rocket upwards and bring me one step closer to FIRE. Happy 4th. 🎆

LaughingMime, 10 months ago

Adding a new trading rule for myself. Never re-buy something I’ve sold in the same day. What a moron 🤦‍♂️.

anon, 10 months ago

Don’t kick yourself. Perfect trading discipline is incredibly hard for everyone. It matters more to keep a cool head when the trade goes against you. You’ll make it back!

LaughingMime, 10 months ago

Thanks anon ❤️

fiah, 10 months ago

did you cut yourself on a falling knife?

LaughingMime, 10 months ago

Right through the hand, live and learn 🫡

Veltoss, 10 months ago

If you can learn new rules from a single mistake and stick to them, you’ll be ahead of many, so don’t feel bad.

Ahead of me lately for sure, I’ve had a string of committing the same mistakes repeatedly. It can be an easy thing to do when the fomo hits.

18boro, 10 months ago

Hi all, finally made it through. Nice little community here, from what I've seen the signal to noise ratio is even better than on r/ethfinance. I'll probably be posting/reading both here and reddit for a while. So, a newbie question: Is there a way to use this on a cellphone, or an android app so I don't have to go to my desktop every time?

fiah, 10 months ago

have you tried going to the site with your phone and installing it as a web app? Chrome asked me immediately the first time, or if it didn’t I’m sure you can go to settings in Chrome and use “add to homescreen”. I haven’t tried this with kbin as I’m here from a lemmy instance, but the lemmy interface is really quite good when installed as an app

T0Bii, 10 months ago

Works for kbin as well.

anon, 10 months ago (edited 10 months ago)

Not the parent, but that’s also what I did with Kbin on iOS and it works well.

Kbin was struggling to display properly in Chrome iOS but works smoothly in Safari iOS, so I used Safari’s “Add to Home Screen” option and the icon took the place of the recently-departed and much-regretted Apollo app.

Eventually I’m waiting for the Artemis app to come of age, though I believe that’s just for iOS and not Android.