Users need an option to block instances

browsing through All has so much pro-fascist posts coming from lemmygrad that it drowns out all the other instances. I'm surprised they're even federated by default but we should have an option to block instances from All if lemmy is deadset on federating with them just because they are fascists with a red and yellow flag...

(before the Tankies start posting about how they aren't pro-fascism "Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the good of the nation and race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy" which all describe the Z movement in Russia they gleefully support in multiple posts)

10_0,

This comment section makes my phone lag lol

krolden,
@krolden@lemmy.ml avatar

147 (now 148) comments on this crap. Why is it we can't seem to get a liveley discussion like this but on a topic that isn't some crybaby infighting?

Really feels like some reactionary bait that lemmygrad users are swallowing whole.

Catradora_Stalinism,
@Catradora_Stalinism@lemmy.ml avatar

Really feels like some reactionary bait that lemmygrad users are swalling whole.

I think so too, but the alternative would be to let their message stand. What do you suggest otherwise?

krolden,
@krolden@lemmy.ml avatar

Ban their instance? :P

But seriously how about just dont take the bait

Catradora_Stalinism,
@Catradora_Stalinism@lemmy.ml avatar

bahhhhhhhh fine I won't comment here anymore

gun,
@gun@lemmy.ml avatar

I support this feature. But Wikipedia is not an authority on what fascism is. The dictionary attempts to describe the usage of a word in this case as it relates to an objective phenomenon. Before we can attempt this description, an understanding of the objective phenomenon must be had. We can rely on definitions for understood phenomena like water, jogging, or birds. But what exactly fascism is is a hotly debated topic, not a well understood phenomenon that we hold absolute knowledge and certainty of. Even your dictionary source admits it is a characterization of fascism, not exactly a definition.

A conservative will reason discursively that Hitler was a leftist, because the Left can be defined as more government, so Fascism is far left. In the same way, that buzzfeed employee could argue their own view of what misogyny is. To them, when a man spreads their legs in public, this is the sexist act of manspreading.

What these people (and you) are doing is taking a word that has a strongly negative connotation, arguing for an expanded categorization of this word in an attempt to rub off that connotation on something else. But all this succeeds in doing is devaluing said word.

Fascism has a negative connotation because its consequence was the death of 60-100 million people. That has nothing to do with Bernie supporters wanting to give people free healthcare. The "more government" connection (what even does 'more government' mean?) has to be proven more than circumstantial. Likewise, sexism has a negative connotation because of rape, women in the past not having basic rights like the right to vote, etc. But a man letting his balls get some air has nothing to do with that, even if people find it a little rude.

They have algebraically replaced a world phenomenon with a term, much like a mathematician replaces a quantity with the letter 'X' on paper. Then they have discursively reasoned using the term, not the phenomenon. You can find the length of a square's side from the root of the area. We have a square that is 4 cm^2^. So what is √4? Math tells us that it is ±2. So a square in real life can have a negative length? This is the lunacy that you will accept with analytical reasoning if you do not understand its premises.

So instead of lazily giving us a definition full of nebulous terms, why not prove to me that any similarities between modern Russia and the Fascist countries are more than circumstantial? What is the unity behind these particular examples? All states are militaristic. All states suppress real opposition. Authoritarianism is no realer than the boogeyman. Russia does not have a "strong regimentation of society" so you're just flat out wrong there.

krolden,
@krolden@lemmy.ml avatar

All states are militaristic. All states suppress real opposition. Authoritarianism is no realer than the boogeyman. Russia does not have a "strong regimentation of society" so you're just flat out wrong there.

What? Are you saying authoritarianism is not a real thing?

gun,
@gun@lemmy.ml avatar

That is correct

krolden,
@krolden@lemmy.ml avatar

Please explain

https://psychology.fandom.com/wiki/Authoritarianism

Random link but seems to explain it well.

Catradora_Stalinism,
@Catradora_Stalinism@lemmy.ml avatar

you think china is fascist, opinion ignored

krolden,
@krolden@lemmy.ml avatar

When did I say that?

Catradora_Stalinism,
@Catradora_Stalinism@lemmy.ml avatar

someone downvoted your post before there was even time to read it lol

frippa,
@frippa@lemmy.ml avatar

Libs gonna lib

Catradora_Stalinism,
@Catradora_Stalinism@lemmy.ml avatar

You are an even worse one than the others...

where did you come from?

Catradora_Stalinism,
@Catradora_Stalinism@lemmy.ml avatar

Oh, you little fed. You have to be a fed. No one is this intentionally ignorant

gun,
@gun@lemmy.ml avatar

Sadly some people do this without getting good pay and a cool badge.

Catradora_Stalinism,
@Catradora_Stalinism@lemmy.ml avatar

And people ask me why I'm cynical...

YouWillNeverBeAWoman,

Even though I don't particularly like or agree with the attitude or points of lemmygrad users, I still think there should be no blocking/defederation on instance level.

IMHO it's a fundamental design flaw of lemmy, that the instance administrators have the ability to prevent their users from accessing content from certain other instances just because of their different (political/ideological) orientation. Being exposed to other opinions, even though you don't like or agree with them, is very important. Yet this seems to become an increasingly rare phenomenon. Even if an instance doesn't want to promote the posts of another, the users should still be able to decide on their own, which community to subscribe or block. I'd love to see more features for that.

From reading the comments in this or other threads, I can see that it wont take long until lemmy will go the same echo chambered and biased way reddit went and ultimately this will be its demise. Alienating everyone who questions the current development with "Just go somewhere else" or "Get lost and host your own instance" is certainly the best way to go for ensuring only the right people stay for the infinite circle jerk...

nxlemmy,
@nxlemmy@lemmy.ml avatar

sounds like a great way to have lemmy overun with spam and fascist propaganda...

Catradora_Stalinism,
@Catradora_Stalinism@lemmy.ml avatar

We get enough of that from you

Supermuff,

Says the stalinist

sexy_peach,

IMHO it’s a fundamental design flaw of lemmy, that the instance administrators have the ability to prevent their users from accessing content from certain other instances just because of their different (political/ideological) orientation.

This is called moderation... It's basically the same thing as deleting individual comments that don't fit the rules.

YouWillNeverBeAWoman,

I'm not saying there shouldn't be any moderation. But there's a difference between deleting a post and preventing whole communities to be accessed because of a subjective sense of what is the correct viewpoint on [topic], be it political, ideological or else.

I could imagine a setting where other instances' posts/communities aren't shown on the All page, but could still be subscribed / viewed by the user if he requests it.

liwott,

See this related idea by @roko , where admins can block instances, but the user can unblock them for themself

YouWillNeverBeAWoman,

Very interesting blog post! Thanks for sharing.

Catradora_Stalinism,
@Catradora_Stalinism@lemmy.ml avatar

what does your name mean?

sexy_peach,

how should admins deal with malicious servers? Like some that post illegal stuff or whatever.

YouWillNeverBeAWoman,

This is indeed a difficult problem. Especially as laws and their interpretation are highly dependent on the hosting location.

Hiding posts behind warnings or only showing them only on user request are on the top of my head.

sexy_peach,

Hiding posts behind warnings or only showing them only on user request are on the top of my head.

That’s not a solution for illegal content.

gun,
@gun@lemmy.ml avatar

I think the instances should be fully connected as possible, but this isn't a design flaw that admins can block instances. It is their resources going into hosting, so they should be able to decide how they want to run their own instances. Having the software prevent them from doing this would be developer overreach.

Awoo,
@Awoo@lemmy.ml avatar

(before the Tankies start posting about how they aren’t pro-fascism “Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the good of the nation and race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy” which all describe the Z movement in Russia they gleefully support in multiple posts)

This would also describe America.

So unless you want to ban all liberals and supporters of America (which would mean you) you need to tighten your funtionally useless definition of fascism. You should start by reading an actual book and learning the history of fascism.

When you misuse the word fascism to describe things that are not fascism you mis-educate huge wide swathes of people on what fascism actually is. In doing so you HELP actual fascists rehabilitate their ideology. You are helping fascists by calling something that is not fascism, fascism.

nxlemmy,
@nxlemmy@lemmy.ml avatar

no one on any instance is cheering on anything the US does especially not its occupation or invasion of any country....

Awoo,
@Awoo@lemmy.ml avatar

I'm not cheering it on either. Some elements of the left are, some aren't. That's ok. I can understand some of our younger marxist-leninists getting caught up in it. The vast majority of MLs are quite critical and reflect a position closer to Cuba's official statement on the matter.

What I critically support is what brings the fastest end to the bloodshed of the people. That right now is a swift victory because clearly the west wants Ukraine to sacrifice the entire population in a war that it can not win, for the interests of the US. I would much prefer for negotiations to happen immediately and for things to stop right now but that clearly is impossible as the political opposition to the war within Ukraine has been entirely suppressed by the far right, all anti-war parties have been banned, and all tv channels that do not push a pro-war position have been closed. The only narrative that exists is the drums of war, and this makes it completely impossible to negotiate an end to the war.

nxlemmy,
@nxlemmy@lemmy.ml avatar

weird that you think ukraine should just accept "swift victory" by the fascist Z army but dont think cuba should just accept "swift victory" by the US or Palestine by Israel etc...

none of the countries should accept "swift victory" by those invading and trying to commit genocide against them. You should unequivocally stand against imperialism but you dont because right now the ones invading wave a flag you like.

uthredii,

The views on lemmygrad are very much outside the general acceptable norms for the English speaking internet.

Even if you agree with their views, you must admit that it is very off putting for most people who come to Lemmy.ml.

I think the purpose of a default instance should be to showcase the software, not to showcase the current community (which is dominated by lemmygrad users right now)..

I think either:

  1. We should have a new default instance.
  2. Have no default instance.
  3. Lemmy.ml should stop federating with lemmygrad.

Personally I have been using and promoting Lemmy less because I find the lemmygrad content off putting. I feel a similar way about this content as I did about place like r/thedonald in 2016.

thervingi,

Yes please! I have nothing against Lemmygrad, but I also don't want them to overwhelm everything else from my All feed. Please let us block entire instances, not just communities.

thursday_j,

The easiest solution for now is to join us at beehaw.org or our friends at sopuli.xyz or midwest.social. We block lemmygrad and put much care in moderation

kvjxq,

I think the point is that this shouldn't be necessary. Individual users should be able to filter out entire instances without having to jump to an entirely new account.

pingveno,

At least for now, there are really just a small number of communities on lemmygrad that contain the most obnoxious material. I found that it worked to block:

10_0,

Tbh this is basically my problem, too much political content, I've blocked all the sublemmies I can but seeing that the default user experience isn't this streamlined is a big problem I have for not recommending Lemmy to anyone.

I see it as a divide between people who want to enjoy tech/privacy version of Reddit, and people who want it to be Twitter but their own tribe, this goes for Wolfballs, and Lemmygrad.

lisko,
@lisko@sopuli.xyz avatar

Imagine, lemmy.ml claims to be about privacy but supports the PRC, which is like the most anti-privacy organization on the planet.

Awoo,
@Awoo@lemmy.ml avatar

which is like the most anti-privacy organization on the planet.

China passed new data privacy laws that are as strong as Europe's GDPR at the end of last year, when is the last time America improved data privacy instead of harming it? Their data protection is much much stronger than America's and much like europe they dump fines in the millions on companies that break it now. It's arguably stronger than europe.

lisko,
@lisko@sopuli.xyz avatar

I don't see how that stops the state's mass surveillance programs

Awoo,
@Awoo@lemmy.ml avatar

The US government has backdoors into every single US-based tech platform (which is basically all of them) and you're concerned about China doing mass surveillance?

You are under mass surveillance. Five Eyes and other intelligence sharing alliances are a means of circumventing national privacy laws, the US has Britain do mass surveillance on US citizens and then that data is shared to the NSA and stored, the US does mass surveillance on British, NZ, Aus citizens and then that data is shared to them and stored by their intelligence services. The collective west has the largest and most comprehensive global mass surveillance apparatus in the world and yet you're utterly obsessed with China. Why? Five Eyes, Nine Eyes and it's now all the way up to Fourteen Eyes.

Take off the propaganda goggles and look at the immense proportions of the western apparatus first. You seem to be utterly blind to the fact everything you see about China is MASSIVE projection from the west who are 20-30 years ahead of China in terms of this apparatus.

And to answer your question, China's law does not exempt the government. They require a warrant to access that data unlike in america and parts of europe.

lisko,
@lisko@sopuli.xyz avatar

Your whataboutism is pretty useless. China also uses its tech companies for spying. China's mass surveillance program is larger and more ambitious. If anyone has been duped by propaganda it's you.

Awoo,
@Awoo@lemmy.ml avatar

“Whataboutism”. Bruh.

If you say something is bad you are INHERENTLY making a comparison to other things. You can not call one thing bad without benchmarking it against other things and gauging a comparison of a range of good to bad.

It is important to benchmark this because it highlights unexamined chauvinism, sinophobia and internal hypocrisy that you have. You have an extreme emotional reaction to anything Chinese and make the claim they’re horrific but you don’t actually compare the reality of the west with what China is. You claim they are the worst, you have done this multiple times in the thread, this is YOU making the comparison to others so OF COURSE I’m going to examine whether your comparison is remotely accurate.

I will end this interaction by pointing you to this list of US atrocities, managed by Dessalines himself.

Tell me again how China is the worst one here.

Do you spend this much time attacking America? Or the rest of the west? No you don’t. Despite the fact they are objectively and measurably worse. Because you’re a chauvinist that has never done one ounce of self crit or examined your own contradictions.

m532,

No, that would be the NSA

lisko,
@lisko@sopuli.xyz avatar

They're #2

m532,

No. Google, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft, ...

lisko,
@lisko@sopuli.xyz avatar

That's all tied under US surveillance. The PRC has its social media operations and tech companies too. Basically everything you hate about the USA, they are doing it too

m532,

They are not flying over half the globe to murder people there. They do not murder the poor. They do not create neonazis. They do not exempt the rich from laws. They do not let people die from covid. They do not force people to have a car. They have a no first strike nuclear policy. They do not have school shootings. They do not have police that protects school shooters. They do not have hollywood. They do not have melon husk. They do not have a history of genociding a whole continent. They banned bitcoin mining. They did not create facebook. They do not have 100s of military bases. They did not privatize their space sector.

lisko,
@lisko@sopuli.xyz avatar

This is not entirely accurate, but you are right that they haven't developed to that stage yet of invading countries on the other side of the world, but if the power level gets high enough that's exactly what will happen. USA was also where China is at now and it took a while to get to that point. China has its own version of some of the things you mentioned, and some other things that are not pleasant. Your optimism that China will be a better hegemon than past ones in history is sadly naive.

Awoo,
@Awoo@lemmy.ml avatar

USA was also where China is at now and it took a while to get to that point.

What are you talking about? USA didn't get to this point the same way China did at all. China got to where it is without doing anything to anyone, without using slavery, without using foreign exploitation, with entirely their own means.

The US was built by literal slaves, and the mass exploitation of the entire world. How the fuck can you say the US wasn't built on foreign exploitation when MILLIONS of actual literal slaves were exploited to construct it? What the fuck kind of white western chauvinism is this?

It's utterly nonsensical to compare the rise of the two. One has clearly risen on its own means without being remotely like any other rising power that has ever existed in history while the other is one of the biggest monsters to have ever existed.

lisko,
@lisko@sopuli.xyz avatar

Actually according to the UN China is still using slavery. I agree China didn't do all the bad things America has done yet, but does some and will do more. It's the nature of power and wealth. China is already exploiting foreign lands, as I live in one of them. There are other inaccuracies in what you wrote but this much suffices.

I did not claim anywhere what you wrote in your second paragraph. Just throwing out "white western chauvinism" is absurd. What kind of nonsense is this?

Stop fetishizing and othering China by claiming it's exceptional and angelic. It's just a normal country like any other and the issue is not China's rise, it is what its politicians will do after the rise that's important.

Awoo,
@Awoo@lemmy.ml avatar

Actually according to the UN China is still using slavery.

No it isn't, no such resolution has taken place and no body of the UN has made that claim, you are literally talking complete and utter bullshit. You should stop getting your information from reddit comment sections and start actually fucking reading.

The fact that you would make this claim when UN High Commissioner for Human Rights visited Xinjiang just a few weeks ago and gave a glowing report is utterly hilarious. Do you actually pay attention to any official sources at all or do you only get your information from what other white people vote into your sphere of visibility?

Islamic envoys from 30 countries all disagree with you. Why do you believe white people on the topic of muslims instead of listening to what muslims actually have to say? Are you going to dismiss them in favour of your US propaganda? You'd be dismissing the ENTIRE muslim world on the topic of muslims which would be yet another incredible demonstration of white western chauvinism and racism.

China is already exploiting foreign lands, as I live in one of them.

And lmao @ this. China just announced that it has fully cancelled 23 loans to 17 African countries. Such exploitation! Such debt trap!

lisko,
@lisko@sopuli.xyz avatar

It was in fact reported by the UN. As for the claim that Muslims approve of the treatment of Uyghurs in China that is false. The envoys you mentioned are not Islamic and do not represent Muslims.

graphito,
@graphito@beehaw.org avatar

The easiest solution for now is to join us at beehaw.org or our friends at sopuli.xyz. We block lemmygrad and put much care in moderation

YSU,

Yeah, I just browsed all for the first time in a while, and its just lemmygrad. First post is about how Russia is "liberating" Ukraine. Literal fascists.

nxlemmy,
@nxlemmy@lemmy.ml avatar

they also have a community dedicated to brigading other websites which seems like it should violate TOS https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/c1b70896-8173-4c6b-a6a6-ce58920a67d0.pngif it werent for all the stars on their instance it would be difficult to tell them apart from a MAGA forum

m532,

Violate which TOS? Reddit TOS? This is lemmy.

nxlemmy,
@nxlemmy@lemmy.ml avatar

I’m saying it should probably be against lemmy TOS to brigade other websites

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