Indiana Jones and Flash flopped hard. Could this be the beginning of the end for franchise films?

For the last few years franchise movies like star wars, marvel, etc. made money regardless of quality. However now it seems like audiences are being choosier when it comes to these kinds of tentpole releases. I’ve seen some people online say that the movie/theater industry is losing people in general but I don’t think that’s the case.

Super Mario and spiderverse made a lot of money. And Oppenheimer, Barbie, and Dune seem to be tracking well. I think the problem is that people are getting sick of the same old stuff and need more than just a brand name to go to the theater. What do you you think?

kingmongoose7877,

Could this be the beginning of the end for franchise films?

We can only hope.

‘The Flash’ and Other Mediocre Movies Won’t Stop Superhero Fatigue - Variety. Fifteen years (since Iron Man), for the love of Stan! As Scorsese said, “…that’s not cinema…the closest I can think of them…is theme parks.”

Fun fact: did you know that the (then) new distribution strategy invented for the iconic film The Godfather gave rise of the Blockbuster (and thus “franchise movies”) and the near-death of auteur cinema?

!moviesnob

Prouvaire,
Prouvaire avatar

@kingmongoose7877 Of course Scorsese's mastery, knowledge and love of movies is matched by few and surpassed by none. But I do find it amusing that the he criticises lowbrow superhero genre movies when every third film he makes has a bunch of Irish or Italian guys telling each other to fuhgeddaboudit, then shooting each other in the head. (Yes, I'm exaggerating, but not by that much.)

My point? There are bad, mediocre and good superhero movies, just as there are bad, mediocre and good gangster movies. And every so often there are great genre movies, like The Godfather, or - for my money - Logan (which I think deserved Oscar nominations for picture, director, adapted screenplay, actor, supporting actor and supporting actress).

And, basically, you just need a lot of movies to be made before a masterpiece is produced. For how many decades were westerns a popular genre? Were directors complaining about the guns'n'horses theme parks in the 1950s? Most westerns that were made over that time have been forgotten, but the great ones like Shane or Unforgiven live on. In fifty years most superheroes will have been forgotten, but a handful will live on.

To address @chickenwing 's post more directly: I remember reading articles a few years ago about how the age of the movie star was dead (Tom Cruise being cited as one of a few exceptions), and that the age of the franchise/brand (Marvel, Star Wars, Pixar) had arrived. If the age of the franchise is dying, what will rise to take its place?

chickenwing,

My hope is that like in the 70’s American New Wave the studios panic and start doing weird experimental stuff with young directors. That’s where a lot of the big name directors came from today. Back then US directors copied what the French were doing and it got people back in theaters. If I were a director I’d look at South Korean films there has been a ton of great films come out of there in the last 20 years or so.

Prouvaire,
Prouvaire avatar

@chickenwing Interestingly, one of the things I respect the execs behind the MCU for (Feige I suppose, although even those behind some of the very early decisions before the rise of Feige) is that they have a history of hiring relatively "indie" directors.

Starting with Jon Favreau, then Joss Whedon, the Russos, James Gunn, Peyton Reed, Taika Waititi, Ryan Coogler, Cate Shortland, Destin Daniel Cretton and Chloé Zhao and others I'm probably forgetting. These are not the sort of names you would have expected to head $100M-$250M popcorn movies with their prior experience mostly being in smaller budget movies and/or TV work. It would have been an understandable decision to hire directors with a more proven big budget epic track record, a "safe pair of hands" (ala Ron Howard who replaced Lord & Miller on Solo because they were seen to be too quirky for Lucasfilm).

Yes you could argue that Marvel homogenises their styles with a "house" look & feel wrt to cinematography, soundtrack, action scenes etc, but nevertheless, the sensibility these directors is generally infused into even their big budget MCU films. And, I'd argue, that accounts for some of their commercial success.

the studios panic and start doing weird experimental stuff with young directors.

I wonder if this is possible given the changes in distribution channel over the years. One of the reasons why theatrical releases are dominated by big-budget four-quadrant movies is because smaller, weirder stuff by younger film makers gets released on streaming. Going to the movies is starting to become expensive. Where I live (not in the US) a movie typically costs $20-$30, and premium formats (eg imax or luxurious seating, table service for food & drink etc) can run up to $50 just for the movie ticket. I'm more likely to see a movie that benefits from an enormous screen and enormous sound (ie "theme park rides") at the movies, because I know I can get 90% of the experience of a smaller film at home at a fraction of the cost, and a fraction of the annoyance (given the inconsiderate behaviour of many people who go to see a movie these days).

I’d look at South Korean films there has been a ton of great films come out of there in the last 20 years or so.

True. Although, based on the ones I've seen (basically the well known Korean films and TV shows), they're generally pretty full-on wrt violence, language and general tone. Not a bad thing by itself (I like dark and gritty), but this sensibility could limit the mainstream success of a movement inspired by South Korean films.

Speaking of foreign films and superhero franchises - I'd love to see the team behind RRR tackle a Marvel or DC movie.

kingmongoose7877,

…when every third film he makes has a bunch of…

…there are great genre movies, like The Godfather, or - for my money - Logan (which I think deserved Oscar nominations…

See, right there that makes me question your ability to discern the difference between gummy bears and filet mignon or, like my post here, pop art and highway billboards. The Godfather and Logan in the same sentence? Really?

Prouvaire,
Prouvaire avatar

@kingmongoose7877 Yup. Really. Objectively in terms of craft The Godfather probably is a bit better (note that I said Logan deserved to be nominated for a bunch of Oscars), but personally of the two I prefer Logan. And yes I put them in the same sentence. Deal with it.

kingmongoose7877,

Dealt with, many many times before you came along. And like the others, you will remain with me for as long as it takes to write this reply. I’ll keep separating the pearls from the dreck and you keep enjoying movies about muscular men with claws.

rikudou,

If the age of the franchise is dying, what will rise to take its place?

The age of good writing! Or am I too optimistic?

BobQuasit,

It's not superhero fatigue or franchise fatigue. It's bad writing fatigue. Seriously, I don't know why Hollywood keeps choosing terrible writers for huge projects, but as long as they are doing that they are going to keep getting what they deserve.

And speaking of huge projects, from what I've heard Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny cost $295 million to make rather than 250. And that's not counting publicity and marketing, which brings it to 400 million if not more. That means they need to make at least $800 million to break even. No matter how you slice their opening weekend, they are in huge trouble. And given that Elementals and The Little Mermaid both bombed hard along with most other Disney movies of the last few years, I'd say that Disney is in serious trouble too!

On the other hand, Guardians of the Galaxy 3 was rather well written, and from what I've heard it did rather well at the box office. Which is just more evidence that if you have a decently-written film the public WILL go and see it. We're just avoiding crap, that's all.

I'll go out on a limb and say that hauling poor old Harrison Ford away from his bong and forcing him at the age of 80 to make shitty movies is tantamount to elder abuse. As for The Flash, coddling wannabe cult leader and mental defective Ezra Miller was just the icing on the cake. The movie was just badly written.

Frantic last minute reshoots and rewrites are a dead giveaway that something is seriously wrong with a production. But that that is happening so often in Hollywood in the last several years is clear evidence that Hollywood itself has completely lost their way. I don't know if they can right that ship, and to be honest I don't much care. If they won't provide people with the good entertainment that they want, eventually somewhere else will. Maybe Bollywood or China.

basic_spud,

Speak for yourself. I've been majorly burned out on super hero movies.

LemmySoloHer,
@LemmySoloHer@lemmy.world avatar

This was the revelation I was waiting to unfold. The best indicator that good writing has legs and bad writing flops regardless of genre or franchise these days is definitely the recent Marvel box office runs.

Ant-Man: Quantamania was mediocre and as people saw it and relayed this sentiment it lost audiences and the box office intake dropped hard – no one wanted to spend money or time on it once word got out.

Guardians of the Galaxy: Vol 3 had the opposite happen with good writing and a rare occurrence where Disney let James Gunn do pretty much whatever he wanted. As people saw it and relayed the sentiment that it was well written and worth seeing in theaters, people flocked to it and gave it some of the strongest legs that continued to make box office money well after opening week.

Guardians 3 even got me into a theater for the first time in years because so many people said it was the one movie they recommended experiencing there instead of waiting for a Disney+ release. Well written movies are refreshing. We’re bored enough with the schlock regardless of genre, but give us something with real substance and it still has a chance to excite audiences to spread the word and make money.

Prouvaire,
Prouvaire avatar

Seriously, I don't know why Hollywood keeps choosing terrible writers for huge projects

Don't worry, soon Hollywood won't be choosing writers at all. (Thanks ChatGPT!)

(Obviously I agree that good writing is fundamental to the success of a movie, with few exceptions.)

Granite,
Granite avatar

As someone in the industry, the tentpole execs do not give a shit about writing or even quality. They just imagine $$$ and hate risk, so they double down on what they already know. It’s a dumb decision from the outside looking in, but they literally can’t see that. Also, in the last 10-15 years, screenwriting has developed more into a gig economy than a FT job, so even finding good writers and keeping them around is tough as hell.

WytchStar,
WytchStar avatar

Every time a sequel or a comic book movie lands on its face, someone rewrites an article about franchise/superhero fatigue. And that's been going on for over a decade.

People will show up to watch a good movie. Guardians 3 did really well. Spider-Man is the "same old stuff." This is all cherry picking examples. Movies don't do well when they're bad or the star is unappealing somehow.

Hollywood will stop making these movies when people stop paying to see them.

chickenwing,

I think Guardians 3 and Spiderverse may be exceptions though. Spiderverse has a cool visual style that makes it stand out and is riding of the goodwill of the last film. Guardians 3 is the last guardians film and I’ve seen a lot of people say it was the last marvel film they were interested in. I think audiences might need more motivation than just a marvel logo now. Captain Marvel got over a billion dollars while marvel was on the hype train but I doubt the sequel does that well.

AlternativeEmphasis,

Maybe, I honestly love going to the movies but it seems the age of the generic blockbuster is done really. It's nearly all sequels or franchises. I want to wathc something not particulary groundbreaking but still interesting and not need to watch it's five previous movies.

The last movie I felt scratched that itch for me was the DnD movie which was relatively detached. I like movies like that and I wish there were more. Don't get me wrong I like a good franchise but when everything is a franchise it's maddening.

lloram239,

Indiana Jones is not really a franchise film in the modern sense. It's a sequel, sure, but it comes many years after the last one and is mostly a self contained adventure. It's not like the MCU where everything builds up on what came before or teases what comes next to try to build up a larger universe. Whatever attempt there might have been to make Phoebe Waller-Bridge into the next Indiana Jones, didn't make it into the final movie.

Same for Flash, the DCU is a mess and already scheduled for a reboot. Nobody really cares about the DCU anymore, since nobody really even knows what the state of that universe is. It's just random cameos without a clear continuity and it all will be blinked out of existence in a bit anyway.

What the MCU is doing is much more interesting, as they used to have that shared universe and it was working. But what they have done in the last few years was a mess. They introduced multiverses, time travel and gods and basically ruined the own continuity they worked so hard to build up over the years. The power levels are completely out of control and it's hard to care about what is happening when everything can be multiverse'ed in and out of existence at will.

I don't think anybody will give up on franchises, the latest Batman already has a TV spinoff with The Penguin. But they hopefully will scale it back a bit and focus on making good movies first, not just endless teases of what will come next and trying to cram every cameo into the film they can think of.

ryanspeck,
ryanspeck avatar

You're making the assumption that, since the pandemic ended, people actually want to go to the theater to see movies. They demonstrably do not. People will not go to see a movie they're interested in in the theater; they will only go to the theater to see a movie they are absolutely driven to see immediately. It has to have huge visual spectacle and be truly worthy of their time to waste the time and money to sit in a theater, which no one seems to want to do anymore. It has to be something that needs to be seen on a large screen.

I'm sure Dune will do well later this year and there's been plenty of movies recently that did fine in theaters. But there's going to be plenty more along the way that fall by the wayside despite the fact that they would have been tent pole pictures with guaranteed box office in past years. But people aren't going to show up for things like Indiana Jones or Flash after major failures previously in both of those series.

TruthButtCharioteer,
TruthButtCharioteer avatar

super mario is like 40 years old and spiderman is even older, so I'm not sure they really count as "something new" as far as franchises go.

TrippyHippyDan,

Sadly, no. However, it dose (hopefully) show that people are starting to show it has to be at least mediocre.

The state of creativity is so shit now. It feels like all they do is;

grab a random book or video game and hope it works out.

Make the 10000th in a series beating whatever dead horse they can.

“Live action”

Remake something less than 10 years old

I hope the writers strike does something to stop the death spiral.

june,

I think Flash and Indiana Jones flopped because they’re garbage. Spider-Verse was a masterpiece and clearly a part of the shared universe franchise. Guardians 3 is nearing a billion dollars at the box office.

People aren’t tired of franchises, franchises are just generally getting worse. MCU is a mixed bag with some outliers still doing really well. We’ll see if the new phase can keep up with the introduction of new characters that most people don’t know. But I’m honestly not terribly hopeful.

wolfteeth,

i would love to see revivals of old franchises go the way of the dodo. i am as nostalgic as any millennial but if i want to see indiana jones or ghostbusters or whatever, i’ll just watch the originals.

i don’t think the superhero franchises are going anywhere, unfortunately. they are still reliable, even with some people losing interest over time. it seems like a good moneymaking bet for disney at least. and all the studios seem really risk-averse lately, more than they used to be.

Deed,

I’d more interested in MCU stuff if they tried something new with them. It’s why guardians as a franchise did so well. The cracks really started showing id argue with captain marvel.

wolfteeth,

I’m just bored of superheroes in general, I think. I watched up to the first Avengers movie as they came out, and kind of lost interest after that. GotG was fun, and I liked the first Black Panther. Loved Thor: Ragnarok. There’s just probably a limit to how much someone can do with that set of concepts without getting repetitive.

Deed,

It’s more to me because of the studios interfering. Its worse with wb and DC but like cause it’s a overarching universe each individual projects suffers creatively because of it.

wolfteeth,

I haven’t bothered with DC movies since Wonder Woman (2017). It was an OK movie, and then I stepped outside and forgot about it. So I can’t speak to how bad those movies are, haha. With Marvel, I do think the quality is good, it’s just that I’m not interested anymore. I have a hard time understanding how anyone is still excited after 15 continuous years of the same stuff.

ABCDE,

I heard bad things about the last Indiana Jones, so I won’t see the latest one as I would feel like I was missing out on something. Same goes with the Flash… the films don’t come across as independent from each other so I won’t bother if it seems like I need to have followed the franchise until that point.

Apollonius_Cone,

I don’t understand the apathy for Indiana Jones. It was a great film. Very entertaining and fun and was dedicated to the previous films. Some very touching moments. Maybe people want to wait until it comes out on a streaming service rather than watch it on the big screen. The big screen experience was worth it with lots of action scenes and Harrison being de-aged and fighting Nazi’s, what’s not to love.

yankeegiant185,

It’s because 4 was bad and it’s hard to believe that 80yr old Indy is still doing anything. Throw in the wonkiness of de aging and it’s not exactly an attractive use of time.

Apollonius_Cone,

The traction that films with older actors such as Grumpy Old Men have limited appeal due to the age of the actual actor. I guess as I get older I just want to see my favourite actor in anything regardless of age. However, the expectation and delivery of entertainment is still there. I guess what George Lucas and Steven Speilberg have always tried to accomplish with their movie making is to grasp some of the anticipatory excitement that they garnered as children watching serials at the Bijou. Sure its campy and all in all mildly unbelievable, but the action delivers and so does the entertainment. The ability to escape was there.

jimmeth,
@jimmeth@lemmy.ml avatar

Also a really really stupid name imo

jordanlund,

Indy is failing not because it’s a franchise, but because the audience for an 80 year old Harrison Ford is not going to the theater.

Flash failed for reasons other than it being part of a franchise. It failed because that franchise is not well liked, and in fact is in the process of being replaced.

Also, Ezra Miller is apparently a giant dick bag, turning off audiences.

I expect Blue Beetle will do worse due to featuring a character 90% of the movie going audience is unaware of, based on characters 99.9% are unaware of. At best people will go “So it’s an Iron Man / Spider-Man ripoff?”

Aquaman is the last of this generation of DC movies, hard to tell how it will turn out. The first one was the ONLY ONE of the DC films to hit the big $Billion mark.

Man of Steel - $668M
www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt0770828/?ref_=bo_se…

Batman V Superman - $873M
www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt2975590/?ref_=bo_se…

Suicide Squad - $746M
www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt1386697/?ref_=bo_se…

Wonder Woman - $822M
www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt0451279/?ref_=bo_se…

Justice League - $657M
www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt0974015/?ref_=bo_se…

Aquaman - $1.148B
www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt1477834/?ref_=bo_se…

Shazam - $367M
www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt0448115/?ref_=bo_se…

Birds of Prey - $205M
www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt7713068/?ref_=bo_se…

Wonder Woman 1984 - $169M
www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt7126948/?ref_=bo_se…

The Suicide Squad - $168M
www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt6334354/?ref_=bo_se…

Black Adam - $393M
www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt6443346/?ref_=bo_se…

Shazam: Fury of the Gods - $133M
www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt10151854/?ref_=bo_s…

The Flash - $245M and counting:
www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt0439572/?ref_=bo_se…

Edit I should say, both Birds of Prey and the Suicide Squad deserved better. Victims of covid and day/date streaming.

WW84 can die in a fire though.

regeya,

I want to see Indiana Jones but I’ve had stuff to do every day since it came out. I might bite the bullet and go tomorrow.

driving_crooner,
@driving_crooner@lemmy.eco.br avatar

I think Ezra Miller is a great actor, but in small indie films, where he can act the problematic individual he’s outside the screen. Whorever decided to cast him off for big budget summer blockbusters should be fired.

jordanlund,

They actually did a decent job in the Flash. It’s tricky playing an 18/19 year old version of the main adult character on screen at the same time.

chickenwing,

Fair point about DC and Indy but Disney has had a few flops recently as well. Pixar isn’t a franchise but it was definitely a brand that normally would bring people to the theaters with just the name alone. Now they are struggling to get people to come to the theaters.

MonitorZero,

Nah movies are too expensive now. I’m super excited for indy. He’s my hero but the theater is a horrible money waste.

They need to learn to release straight to streaming instead of Theatre only. Because I spent a while lot of money on a 5.1, 65in 4k TV and awesome lighting to go blow $100 every time I want to see a new release? Hell no. The threater is just more irrelevant then ever when I can be super comfy and watch or be packed in with 100 strangers.

sixpercent,

2 x 3D Atmos = $45

XL Popcorn and pop = $20

???

$100

manapropos,

I saw the movie last weekend and paid about $10USD for 2 tickets, sodas and popcorn. Mexico is a beautiful place

theUnlikely,

How expensive are those tickets?!

kemsat,

No, it’s just more expensive than ever to go watch a movie. I like going to this one theater because it has comfy seats, they serve beer, and have good sound. The tickets are like $12-18, but I also have to pay for parking (about $30 for a 2-3 hour movie), and they up charge the beers too. So, going to watch a movie ends up being around $60-70 for two, and the only reason to go is to be part of the social experience happening around the movie, because if you wait like 90 days, you can buy the movie on iTunes or YouTube for less than $60.

So I pretty much only go to Marvel movies since the cgi action scenes are better on the huge screen.

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