"Karashta, you don't want kids? You'd make a great dad."
I've been asked this several times by close friends since my early 20s. My response has always been about what I feel is the irresponsibility of bringing a child I will desperately love into a world that I've seen crumbling around me since my teens.
People called me stupid for believing in things like the oncoming ecological and societal collapses, despite me trying to show them what I'd seen and read.
Somehow, "I told you so," doesn't, in any way, make me feel better about the situation.
Most of the apocalyptic things people imagine are not supported by science at this point, and those that are possible can still be averted. But I also think that our children will find a way to adapt despite our problems. Will it be easy? No, but life is not easy even without the climate going haywire, and we find a way to live anyway. Our descendants will do the same.
This is completely unrelated to anything I said. I have personally dedicated my life to working to solve this and other environmental issues so calling me a bystander is hilariously wrong. In fact, doomerism is a big reason many people don’t act which is what I’m arguing against. Feeling some optimism the future will help you take real action in your community instead of doom-scrolling. And as I said there is no scientific basis to believe that climate change will kill all of us.
Life finds a way is one of the top ten anti climate change propaganda myths. Life doesn’t always find a way. Sometimes life gets blasted in the face and goes through a mass extinction event. Saying you think our kids will find a way to adapt is taking the passive bystander approach.
No it isn’t. That’s a nonsensical statement that is at odds with both human nature and climate science. People need to believe that there is hope or they will not act.
So far, there are always survivors of the mass extinctions. No indication that this one will be different.
Because saying things like, “I trust our kids” is part of how climate denialism was sold to Boomers and Gen X. We tried the low pressure approach. It’s time to panic people.
But this is not and has never been part of climate denialism messaging. In fact, the type of false statements you have been making (e.g. 99% of people dying—there is absolutely no scientific basis for this idea) are increasingly amplified by denialists to convince everyone that it’s too late to do anything.
Research on this topic supports that a hopeful outlook not only does not reduce climate action, it helps to encourage it by reducing a sense that actions won’t have any real effect: conbio.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/…/cobi.14020
We found that hope and optimism did not undermine perceptions about serious of the threat or likelihood of action. In fact, hope was associated with stronger threat appraisal and indicators of action. These findings provide important support for proponents of hope and optimism and a counter to those who suggest that positive states undermine recognition of conservation challenges.
So the science supports neither the idea that our children are doomed nor that holding a realistic but hopeful view of the future will prevent people from acting. In fact it is the exact thing people need to empower them to act.
There's been a documented decline of about 70% in animal populations, the amount of weather and climate related destruction has demonstrably increased, there's traces of plastic and forever chemicals almost literally all over, Australia was on fire for half a year, wildfires are increasing in frequency in the western US, hurricanes are coming with increasing frequency and intensity from the gulf up the Atlantic.
There's also the fires that tore across Greece, the tornadoes forming in states in the US that have seemingly never had them before, the massive loss of ice from Arctic and Antarctic areas of the world.
This is just a small smattering of the things I remember from recently.
I'm not saying that next year everything is going to immediately collapse. But I can see the stability of the ecosphere dissolving in front of me and there are quite a few nations that seem like they are leaning towards collapse if history is any judge of things.
And yet people continue to live their lives and create joy and meaning despite these problems. You underestimate the resilience of humanity.
Most governments and economic systems are harmful and have created these problems in the first place, so their collapse could be an important part of solving these problems and creating something new and better.
My mom is desperate for grandchildren and she is so upset that our branch of the family will end with me. I’m not ever having a child or adopting. Shit is way too fucked for that and is only getting worse. I’m 26, and I fully expect to see society as we know it collapse within my lifetime. My hope is that humanity falling due to its own hubris will allow the planet to finally heal.
As much as being someone outside the US, who enjoys the waning US hegemony over the 3rd world countries thanks to Trump’s fuckery all around, and strongly disliking how Joe has rightfully earned the “Genocide” nick these last months despite all his awesome domestic policies, I’d still urge you without any doubt to vote for Biden this election.
Orange jello may have weakened the iron grip of the US in exploitation of the 3rd world countries, but not without aims to replace them with other entities as sinister as the current ones.
3rd party alternatives you have will not amount to a solidified support for anything you want. Conservatives and right wingers are always extremely consolidated on their voting habits, no matter what they complain about or whom they dislike, never make mistakes about that. They are not borderline fascists without a reason.
Don’t make the mistakes that we did in Turkey in last years election. Left, as always, bickered about most things among themselves, rightfully so but in the worst timing, and right just said “We’ll vote for whatever secondary right-wing shell parties there are but we’ll support Erdoğan no matter what including the horribly foreseen earthquake disaster shortly before the elections.”.
Your voting system forces you to this choice, sadly. Antics, rebellious voting, forcing ideals without having proper steps in place will not help you achieve what you want, unless by force, which the civil systems of administration are there to put bloodless alternative.
You are free to spend your vote one whatever makes more sense for you, but consider what people closer to your views have been urging for your sense to work better.
Market Capitalism requires infinite growth/metastasis on a finite world of finite resources. Its very nature is as impossible as one pulling themselves up by their bootstraps.
IF humanity cared about its own future, it doesn’t btw, we’d be focused on shrinking humanity’s footprint significantly over the next few generations to find homeostasis/equilibrium with this world, the only world we will ever encounter as a species that is naturally hospitable to us.
But that’s a non starter. Not only will we not do that, but we will refuse to so much as temper our reckless growth/metastasis, even in the face of oblivion.
It’s darkly hilarious how many unwashed peasants, losers of this rigged global economy, still RAGE against the concept of an economy that focuses on having everyone’s basic needs met sustainably, because there would be no room for the super yachts and private jets they would never be allowed aboard anyway under such an economy.
We’re literally gambling with our own extinction, and losing, in the name of “but someday I might be rich. And then people like me better watch their step!” It’s the height of pathetic.
I largely agree with you but I also think advocates of radical change like this need to create a working model of what this actually looks like and implement it somewhere before people will trust that these ideas can help them. Obviously this is very difficult within the context of modern society but I don’t think it’s surprising that most people are wary of radical political and economic change.
I don’t think people are as worried about one day being rich as they are about utopian charlatans wrecking the economy and dropping them into poverty. There is a lot of propaganda that works to heighten this fear as well.
I hear you, but It’s impossible to create a working model. The US literally toppled South American governments to make its resource markets open to our market capitalists. Look what we’ve inflicted on Cuba for half a century, and I look to their survival in the face of it as inspirational.
The global market capitalists endeavor to exploit and enshittify every national economy that dares to serve its citizens over private shareholders at every turn, to dehumanize societies for profit.
You may be right, that if all we can do is make claims in our appeal for radical action, the market capitalists will maintain power. To that I say, that is probably what will happen. This isn’t a fairy tale or a movie where everything will work out in the end, the trajectory we’re on leads to hell for our species, and we will in all likelihood arrive to that hell. If we’re too comfortable or too afraid to do otherwise in spite of the evidence and increasingly our experience of the consequences, this only ends one way.
Market capitalism has been tested, run its course, and imho, it takes a fool not to declare it a complete failure and danger to the species. But I’m just a random perceptive asshole, so that doesn’t change anything.
Difficult but I disagree that it is impossible. All things end eventually, even capitalism. The question is how can we best move towards that inevitable end? I think practicing what we preach in an organized collective manner is a key element that has been missing.
We all could put money together and go start some intentional communities out in Oregon or something.
This sort of thing was attempted many times in the 60s and 70s. They tended to devolve into the kind of petty authoritarianism you see in homeowners associations, then chaos, then nothing.
Hell, we can look at the Amish to see what works and what doesn’t.
This sort of thing was attempted many times in the 60s and 70s. They tended to devolve into the kind of petty authoritarianism you see in homeowners associations, then chaos, then nothing.
So we need to build an economic model that allows people to truly be independent of one another, so we’re not dependent on one another to survive anymore. 🤔 That could be doable with today’s technology, certainly with near-future stuff
I highly recommend the documentary series All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace by Adam Curtis. He outlines connections between applications of computer technology, Rand’s Objectivism, Alan Greenspan’s influence on economics, and techno-utopian ideas, especially through the 70s, 80s and 90s. A lot of it is the groundwork for today’s big tech companies and the current state of the economy. Episode 2 addresses the attempts at intentional communities directly.
So we need to build an economic model that allows people to truly be independent of one another, so we’re not dependent on one another to survive anymore.
This is functionally impossible. We are all interdependent and the direction of technology development and international trade has made this ever more true. A great example is Thomas Thwaites’ attempt to build a toaster from scratch (a relatively simple, inexpensive consumer product requires a very complex trade and manufacturing infrastructure to bring into existence).
And personally, I would argue that it is the wrong direction, and the wrong intention. Rather than trying to divest ourselves of interdependence, we should be acknowledging it and recognizing cooperation and mutual assistance as the true power of human society. We are all in this thing together.
Ultimately, you can’t solve social problems with technology.
People have done this but what I’m envisioning is something in more direct contact and dialogue with broader society. Rural ICs are cool but they are a bit isolated. Not to mention, most people live in cities and probably won’t want to move to the country. So I think this idea would work better as embedded in an urban area.
advocates of radical change like this need to create a working model of what this actually looks like and implement it somewhere before people will trust that these ideas can help them
Thank you, sometimes I feel like the only person who thinks like this and it’s refreshing to be reminded I’m not.
Similarly, I don’t understand the human obsession with constantly increasing the world population… as if that isn’t inherently a bad thing. Isn’t it obvious a finite pizza of fixed size cut into more slices means less pizza per person?
Yep. Have fun while you can. I mean I’m going to still do what I can do, vote for the right people but… At this point… It’s like we are a person still diligently showing up to all his chemotherapy appointments despite the fact he’s resigned to it not working in the end.
Yep. The people in power are the people in power precisely because they only think about what’s in it for them. That is what humanity rewards and elevates: selfishness. Oh I’m sorry, they rebranded selfishness into a positive trait: “rational self-interest.” what a lovely Orwellian flourish.
Humans that consider how their actions may negatively effect others are not. Only practicing sociopaths are permitted to steer this ship, and wouldn’t you know it, they’re steering us right into oblivion for short term ego score returns.
Will it be hell? Yeah. But every 0.1 degrees we prevent will help. We can’t stop fighting because we are not the only people suffering. There are way way way more people that are terrified and are fighting really damn hard. We should never abandon those people. Then we are just bending over to the big polluting corporations. Every 0.1 degrees can save so many damn lives. Humanity WILL survive. Most of is in the west will. Giving up and letting the people in the worst parts of the world rot and burn is not something we should do.
Sorry but i really fucking hate the doomer comments here about giving up.
Add comment