flatpak is bloated mess. It basically installs a whole distro onto your existing distro.
That person is also lying very badly by saying that appimages bloat the system… they are actually even smaller than native packages due to their compression (like for example the entire libreoffice suite being 300 MiB while a native package is 600 MiB).
This is the space that flatpak takes to install firefox, just firefox: imgur.com/a/WRcRWIL
While this is 15 appimages, that includes libreoffice, kdenlive and two web browsers: imgur.com/a/YxjUYdt
EDIT: After being accused of misleading people by@BananaTrifleViolinI decided to install firefox, libreoffice and kdenlive to flatpak, just those 3 applications, because I was told sure the deduplication was going to do miracles:
Sorry for misleading people, turns out flatpak doesn’t use near 3X as much as 15 AppImages when it just has firefox installed (which once again those 15 AppImages use 1.2 GIB). It just uses 1.35GiB when it has a single app kek.
On top of that flatpak is not terminal friendly, you have to start everything with flatpak run org.etc.etc (this also breaks scripts that expect the simple binary name in PATH).
This person is complaining that appimages suck because you have to put the desktop entry yourself, when apps like am or zap and appimagelauncher do it for you lmao. (And at least am also makes a symlink in PATH so it fully integrates the appimage unlike flatpak ever will)
EDIT: That github link is really bad, it even links this article for saying that sanboxing with appimages isn’t secure:
Appimages also install another distro onto your system. May be small,
Would you say portable builds (like deadbeef) also install another distro onto your system? This is what appimages primary replace…
If they use compression, you replace disk space with CPU power.
You can also extract the appimage and run the AppRun script, comes with the downside that it increases the size of the appimage but you don’t have that trade off anymore if that is a problem. And yeah you will have to umcompress a lot of appimages before the space usage is comparable to that of flatpak lol.
And that on a 1TB drive is just not important.
Yeah but there is a big difference in saying that appimages bloat the system when they DO NOT, and now dismissing? flatpack usage it as “is just not important” wtf.
Yes they break that strange XDG idea, and that makes sense
Is it strange idea to not want my home cluttered by a bunch of useless top level dotfiles?
Appimages can be placed in ~/.local/bin/ which makes them kinda okay for terminal use. But none of the formats is terminal friendly
Package managers like AM automatically place the appimage in /opt and make symlinks to /usr/.local/bin (it also keeps the appimage up to date by comparing the version from that of the repo). I use it for terminal apps like amdgpu_top, which ships as an appimage by the creator themselves.
It also has a portable mode called ‘appman’, I use this one and I drop my appimages in ~/.local/opt and it automatically makes symlinks to ~/.local/bin (this last one is also a XDG location btw).
Both also automatically install the desktop entry to the appimage, something that seems to be too hard for the person that made that github thing. There is also zap and appimagelauncher for that. And even gearlever for the flatpak users that want to use appimages.
CLI stuff is not covered but that is also okay.
It is not ok at all, flatpak could be much better but they don’t want to fix it, that is the issue, and I haven’t gone into the performance issues you can have with flatpak because like in the case of yuzu, the flatpak was compiled for x86-64 generic while the appimage was x86-64 v2, and it also had a bunch of issues because flatpak ships its own version of mesa iirc. Honestly if I’m forced to choose one thing out of everything, it would likely have to be nix, and nix has the small issue of not being FHS compliant lol. So yeah it really sucks.
appimages could also be much better, if the runtime statically linked glibc they would also work on musl distros which is a shame they don’t.
The first app installed may seem big but often the next app will use many of the same libraries rather than redownload/reinstall them.
Do you want me to repeat the flatpak test as see if I install libreoffice along side firefox that the install size wont go from 3 GiB to 3.3GiB or more?
needs to be decompressed which causes further overhead
You don’t have to do this, you can run the decompressed appimage at the cost of increasing its size, which yeah you will have to decompress a lot of appimages before the space usage is comparable to that of flatpak.
Simple apps with few dependencies will be small, but big apps can bloat massively particularly
kdenlive is 200 MiB, is that too big for such application?
I wouldn’t want to run a web browser using a poorly maintained appimage for example
Good thing librewolf releases their appimage officially.
while every AppImage is crudely it’s own distro.
Do you think portable apps are also their own distro?
Alright do you want to install those 15 application on flatpak and compare the space usage again? Are you 100% sure that it wont be over 4GiB if I do that? (while the appimages was 1.2 GiB I remind you).
EDIT: also, that 3GiB doesn’t include that dependencies that flatpak installed in my system lol. It is only the var dir but it doesn’t include the other stuff that flatpak pulled when it installed on my system lol.
EDIT2: I JUST INSTALLED flatpak, firefox and libreoffice, AND THE THING IS 4.4GiB NOW, HOW THE FUCK DOES LIBREOFFICE FLATPAK CAN EVEN DO THIS WTF.
Will you still say that I’m trying to mislead?
And don’t get me started on stuff like theming, lack of app updates, and downloading programs via a browser like on a Windows system.
Asif flatpak never had theming issues or lack of updates, I can tell you for example that the suyu flatpak is outdated right now while the appimage isn’t.
Also you don’t have to download appimages via a browser… why do you even bother replying if you don’t know this? I mentioned several appimage package managers in this very thread.
How the fuck did libreoffice even increase the size by 1.4 GiB? the libreoffice appimage that is “its own distro” is 860 MiB uncompressed (it is 323 MiB when it is an appimage btw) , the flatpak added 1.4 GiB somehow kek.
There is nothing gained here
I use appimages because they have a lot of features that I really like, from having portable homes, taking less space than native packages, etc.
They also allow easy version control, did I run into a regresion from certain application? let me try the older appimage (this happened with ferdium to me btw).
Why use an appimage when they also have official RPM or DEB repos?
What if I’m using (I am btw) archlinux, and not that means that I need to rely on aur packages which I can’t even compile right now because my system ran into a weird bug in cmake and haven’t even been able to report because I can’t register in the cmake gitlab lol.
Also I used voidlinux for a few weeks and that really opened my eyes on how much I relied upon the aur and I made the change to switch to appimages.
and update mechanism.
I use appimages with the AM packages manager that installs them, adds a symlink to PATH, adds the desktop entry, and keeps them up to date as well.
Yes I will give you that flatpaks are safer than appimages, aur or even native packages, but from there everything else is just downsides, including performance regressions, and I don’t know about you, I don’t like that so I don’t use it, as simple as that. And it really made me mad when I saw that github thing of the other user lying that appimages bloat the system, that shit even links an article saying that firejail isn’t safe as argument against appimages, when that very article even mentions that flatpaks sandbox isn’t safe either kek.
There is actually a workaround for firefox, but for flatpak you would essentially have to make flatpak have its own home dir, and that is just too much of a hack for such application. As every app being called in flatpak would be under this fakehome as well.
I guess you cannot update an app anymore when doing that.
I could make a script for am that does it btw. I’ve never had the need to do this but it is possible.
The script would run ./*.AppImage --appimage-extract the newly installed appimage, rm ./*.AppImage && ln -s ./squashfs-root/AppRun nameof.AppImage and that is it, it will work with the old desktop entry and symlink in PATH and every time the appimage gets updated it does the same thing like a pacmanhook would.
as Balena Etcher or whatever dont supply .desktop files.
I moved it to a different partition because I had already noticed that my Btrfs filesystem level compression was makiing the size different much smaller (the root filesystem actually grew by about 3 GiB but my file manager was reporting over 6 GIB on the flatpak dir).
EDIT: Also that tool reports the flatpak size as 3.5 GiB while fastfetch reports the flatpak partition as 3.4 GIB.
EDIT2: This is after installing yuzu:
<span style="color:#323232;">~/ ./flatpak-dedup-checker
</span><span style="color:#323232;">Directories: /var/lib/flatpak/{runtime,app}
</span><span style="color:#323232;">Size without deduplication: 5.70 GB
</span><span style="color:#323232;">Size with deduplication: 4.03 GB (70% of 5.70 GB)
</span>
It actually grew considerably for yuzu, yuzu appimage itself is 60 MiB compressed 170 MiB uncompressed.
My point was that flatpaks don’t have a mechanism for updating, unless the developer builds an updater service into the program, like apps do in Windows.
Freudian slip eh.
That isn’t the amount of space it’s using. This has been explained to you. Stop intentionally misleading people.
Alright, you were right, flatpaks don’t use 6GIB for 6 applications, I am very sorry, they use 4 GIB KEK.
<span style="color:#323232;">~/ ./flatpak-dedup-checker
</span><span style="color:#323232;">Directories: /var/lib/flatpak/{runtime,app}
</span><span style="color:#323232;">Size without deduplication: 5.70 GB
</span><span style="color:#323232;">Size with deduplication: 4.03 GB (70% of 5.70 GB)
</span>
That vid is actually good, it exposes lots of issues that regular users run into when switching to linux, in fact debian changed apt to make it harder to remove essential packages like linus did.
On Arch to remove essential package you will not be prompted with confirmation to remove them, you will have to add --nodeps --nodeps twice to the command to be able to do so, no idea how long this has been the case on arch or if it was implemented after linus vid as well, but that is something that should have been that way a decades ago, I still see on reddit posts of people that accidentally delete grub or remove important directories from their system.
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We need something like this for home, I hate that programs like steam and firefox place themselves directly into home instead of ~/.config and ~/.llocal.
I even move my personal themes to /usr/share/themes because not everything works with ~/.local/share/themes and needs a ~/themes directory instead.
Thanks, I just went down this rabbit hole and discovered xdg ninja and managed to clean most of my home, I even found a useful script that launches steam on a fake home directory on .local.
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Use Btrfs partition with compression, my entire arch install takes less than 6GiB on disk space, and I have gimp, inkscape and kdenlive installed: imgur.com/HofMHUJ.png
In fact I have the OS partition limited to 35GIB. And it should have been 25GIB or less.
There was a lot of misinformation about manjaro regarding the “Aur DDOS” and their finances that people still repeat to this day.
The person maintaining the manjarno repo which was a very popular site where all the critism of manjaro was recently corrected all those mistakes and then later took the website down.
the package is not there and so the AUR grabs it from the AUR as well. Perhaps it is even the Git version with an unclear version number
You will see that the aur package will use a git version and you will also be asked to remove the conflicting package when you are installing a git version.
And once again, this isn’t unique to manjaro, on my arch install yuzu broke because they were using dynarmic from the aur instead of using the one provided by yuzu itself.
Also gimp and gegl are already on both the arch and manjaro official repos, If you are using git packages and you don’t update them lots of things will break regardless if you are on any arch distro.
Now I wonder if pamac checks for updates of git packages by default, because your git packages will not be updated unless you explicitly tell yay to do so (yay --devel) I think paru every does it automatically with every update but then again most people will use yay instead.
Suffice it to say, when I used Manjaro, I got the impression that the AUR broke all the time and that using the AUR broke my install from time to time. Now that I use Arch, I do not have those issues and I realize that it was Manjaro all along.
My experience has been quite the opposite, a few months ago my install broke to the point that I could not update the system, turns out it was because of the arch migration and my system wasn’t incorporating the new pacman.conf.new.
It has no problems running, however I also wanted to do the same with i3 when I press the volume keys on my keyboard and i3 can’t do it, I had to make it a script file and point i3 to it for it to work.
But why do you want it in one line in the first place? Multiline scripts have no performance drop, and they are more readable.
I prefer to have all i3 settings on one config file, that is easier for me, it is just one file that I need to backup and also one file that I need to edit when changing things.
On ther other hand if the scripts are their on individual files, I have to make sure that the script has the permission to run, put the script on its place, etc.
I also have a keybind to open my i3config so I can do quick changes to it on the fly, while if every script had its own file I would need to navigate thru each one individually.
For example I recently began testing voidlinux and on void my monitors have different names than on arch, so my i3config didn’t work by just being dropped in I had to edit the file.
To do so I just told mousepad to find all instances where the name DP-1 is and replace it for DisplayPort-0, same for DP-2 to Display-Port-1, etc, etc.
If my monitor settings had been its own script file that i3 ran, I would have also needed to open it and edit it.
That is why I would prefer to have the scripts on the i3config, not a big deal but if it is possible I would like to know for the cases where it doesn’t work.
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