Reminds me of the Chinese issue: you run over someone, but they are likely not dead. Will you save their life but accept having to pay for whatever healthcare costs they have until they are recovered? Or will you run over them again, to make sure they die and your punishment will be a lot lighter?
Strange to assume that swerving will definitely kill one of them. What if you swerve off the road, or slam on the brakes? The reason the trolley problem works is that it’s on rails and you’re not operating it.
That’s because it’s a Tesla car, silly. It only allows for minimalization of victims down to a minimum of one. I’ve heard that newer models have a perdiction module, that will deploy a rear mounted gun and shot down any survivors in case of narrowly avoided car crash. The seat still does devour the driver if that happens though, for some legacy backwards compatibility reasons. As for the disembodied Voice that recites all your sins and threatens you to reveal them to the public should you NOT take the wheel and kill those people yourself, it’s apparently in spanish as well now. Such an age of wonders.
Who’s to say that will be immediate? Many people won’t be quick to abandon their guaranteed-available vehicle, especially while every house and employer has parking.
Ok so ten years then. In that time nearly all average family cars will be smart. They will have self-driving (they can come pick you up). Will have a few years of insurance claims and premiums showing they are not responsible for 99% of crashes and insurance will react accordingly pushing up the insurance of the last holdouts so far that it becomes uneconomical for the average person to drive “manual”.
It sounds like we’re assuming a similar adoption curve and are just using terms differently. In those intermediate years while insurance is reacting, if the driverless car kills someone, who’s to blame?
It’s not the same. When you have a dog you use a leash and, if needed, you can restrain the mouth.
In this case you are not in control. And you can’t be. You are just a passenger. And you should have the same responsibility as a passenger in a train: none.
I didn’t know about your parameters. I would think your example pushes it home, no car should ever be fully autonomous and should have a “leash” that a human could “restrain” the car with if necessary. Is no good?
If someone steals your car and kills someone with it, then disappears without ever being identified, the car owner doesn’t assume liability. Liability falls on whoever was operating it at the time. If software was driving, then the software company assumes the liability.
Doubt it. I mean, any self driving car is going to make the driver agree to responsibility for what the car does and ensure the user has a manual override available just in case.
No company is going to ship fully autonomous driving software (for example to have fully autonomous driverless taxis) without contractually making the fleet owner responsible for their fleet cars.
But you bought the driverless car and turned it on. You never agreed to the thief’s joyride. Where do you draw the line for “operation” - like operating a steering-assist car, or operating a Roomba?
Even with autopilot I feel it’s unlikely that driver would not be liable. We didn’t have a case yet but once this happens and goes higher to courts it’ll immediatly establish a liability precedence.
You’re still in control of the vehicle, therefore you’re still liable. Like plopping a 5 year old on your lap to drive while you nap, if they hit people it’s still your fault for handing over the control to something incapable of driving safely while you were responsible for the vehicle.
But a reasonable person would not consider a child capable of driving. An “extremeley advanced algorithm that is better and safer than humans and everyone should use it” is very different in this case. Aftet hearing all the stupid fluff, it is not unreasonable to think that selfdrivong is good.
Teslas own warnings and guidance assert that drivers should remain ready to take control when using the features. They do not claim it is infallible. Oversight and judgement still need to be used, which is why this argument wouldn’t hold up at all.
I think an argument can be made that a moving vehicle is no different than a lethal weapon, and the autopilot, nothing more than a safety mechanism on said weapon. Which is to say the person in the driver’s seat is responsible for the safe operation of that device at all times, in all but the most compromised of circumstances (e.g. unconscious, heart attack, taken hostage, etc.).
Ruling otherwise would open up a transportation hellscape where violent acts are simply passed off to insurance and manufacturer as a bill. No doubt those parties would rush to close that window, but it would be open for a time.
Cynically, a corrupt government in bed with big monied interests would never allow the common man to have this much power to commit violence. Especially at their expense, fiscal or otherwise.
So just or unjust, I think we can expect the gavel to swing in favor of pushing all liability to the driver.
Making that argument completely closes the door for fully autonomous cars though, which is sort of the Holy grail of vehicle automation.
Fully autonomous doesn’t really exist yet, aside from some pilot projects, but give it a decade or two and it will be there. Truly being a passenger in your own vehicle is a huge selling point, you’d be able to do something else while moving, like reading, working or sleeping.
These systems can probably be better drivers than humans, because humans suck at multitasking and staying focused. But they will never be 100% perfect, because the world is sometimes wildly unpredictable and unavoidable accidents are a thing. There will be some interesting questions about liability though.
They’re most likely liable. “FSD” is not full self driving, it’s still a test product, and I guarantee the conditions for using it include paying attention and keeping your hands on the wheel. The legal team at tesla definitely made sure they weren’t on the hook.
Now where there might be a case for liability is Elon and his stupid Twitter posts and false claims about FSD. Many people have been mislead and it’s probably contributed to a few of the autopilot crashes.
Immagino having a car that doesn’t pretend to drive herself but it’s enjoyable to drive, a car that doesn’t pretend to be a fucking movie because it’s just a car, a car without two thousands different policies to accept in wich you will never know what’s written but a car that you will be able to drive even though you decided to wear a red shirt on a Thursday morning which in you distorted future society is a political insult to some shithead CEO, a car that you own not a subscription based loan ,a car that keeps very slowly polluting the environment instead of polluting it with heavy chemicals dig up from childrens while still managing to pollute in CO2 exactly the same as the next 20 years of the slow polluting one not to mention where the current comes from, a car that will run forever if you treat it well and with minor fixes with relative minor environment impact and doesn’t need periodic battery replacement which btw is like building a new vehicle … This are not only a critical thoughts about green washing but are meant to make you reflect on the different meanings of ownership in different time periods
And yes I will always think that all environmentalists that absolutely needs a car should drive a 1990s car, fix it, save it from the dump fields and drive it till it crashes into a wall …
I would expect that that 90’s car would eventually be able to be converted to hydrogen combustion. That would save on pumping up petrol (if the hydrogen is not generated with petrol) and it would not cost yet another car to be created.
I’m not aware of a single jurisdiction on the planet that makes Tesla liable for what the vehicle does when autopilot is enabled. In order to activate autopilot you have to accept about 3 different disclaimers on the car’s screen that state VERY clearly how you are still responsible for the vehicle and you must intervene if it starts behaving dangerously.
I’ve been driving with autopilot for over 2 years, and while it has done some stupid stuff before (taking wrong turns, getting in the wrong lane, etc.), it has NEVER come close to hitting another vehicle or person. Any time something out of the ordinary happens, I disengage autopilot and take over.
Bro bought a Tesla just 2 years ago. Long after it was very widely known just how much of an arsehole Musk was, and after many other excellent EVs were on the market.
I’ll let you draw the conclusions from those facts.
Yeah and while Elon is the fucking worst I assume not everyone knows that he is the Tesla man. It’s incredible actually how much he’s intertwined with the brand. I would totally buy a Toyota or whatever and I couldn’t tell you the name of their CEO, nor of any other car manufacturer, nor would I look up who they are beforehand.
Granted the poster above is on Lemmy so I assume he knows more about musky boy than he would like.
When I bought my car, there were no widespread plans for other manufactures to adopt NACS, you couldn’t get your hands on a Rivian for less than $100k, and I was commonly driving long distances for work so I needed a vehicle with long range that I could charge quickly on trips. Tesla checked all the boxes.
I haven’t experienced any of these super widespread quality or reliability issues people on the internet talk about. It was delivered with no issues, has needed very little maintenance (just tire rotations basically), and it’s not falling apart like some would lead you to believe. I don’t know what to say other than that my personal experience with the vehicle has been great, and that’s what I really care about in a vehicle. I don’t buy cars based off what the CEO says on Twitter.
You can think whatever you want, but my experience driving it has been perfectly fine. Range is great, the car is not falling apart like some people claim, it was not delivered with any issues, and chargers are plentiful where I live. Those are the main things I (and many others) care about in a vehicle. I don’t care what the CEO does or says online. I have a Ford as well and couldn’t even tell you who the CEO of Ford is.
If someone is injured or killed by a Tesla car, they can sue the company directly, regardless of any legal agreements you may have as the owner. Whether they win is a different question, but they might win if they could show that Tesla was negligent, and especially if Tesla was willfully negligent.
Just because you think you’re responsible, even if you agreed in triplicate that you’re responsible, doesn’t necessarily make you legally responsible, depending on the circumstances. And that’s the way it should be.
TL;DR: General Motors was selling customer driving data to LexisNexis which provided them to insurance companies. Hard braking also contributed to a higher risk factor.
Nah bro if it’s the choice between raising insurance cost vs killing people + jail time for manslaughter + eating the guilt for the rest of my life, i’ll take the insurance.
Also wth america your capitalism and your priority is wack.
I don’t like the spying aspect but it is unironically true that if you slam your brakes at every red light you are driving in a dangerous fashion. It’s more so about the pattern than a one off event though.
I mean without getting into the privacy nightmare piece, frequent hard braking probably means you have a habit of following too closely, or not paying attention to potential hazards and covering a brake. So I don’t think the car manufacturer should supply it but also think it would be good to let the person with the habit know so that they can learn to be a safer driver?
Add comment