Unpopular opinion: if you require disenfranchised voters to stave off a fascist dictatorship then you’re already a failed state and are only kicking the can down the road.
People acting like if Biden wins, Trump will magically disappear and another even more insane republican won’t immediately take his place and threaten democracy again.
I honestly think this is the closest to perfect time for the DNC to split and make a new party. They can easily start with at least 30-40 house members and maybe a few senators. The majority of young voters would probably opt to vote for them.
Suddenly they’d be forced to do coalitions to keep doing things, and republicans would lose voter base so fast they might even split themselves.
Yes and in many of them when one whole side of the political spectrum is united , the other side loses badly. The American right wing has abysmally low expectations from their politicians and they fall in line anyways. It’ll happen again.
There are probably a lot of people you love who require healthcare who are depending on that can being kicked further down the road until you have an alternative.
I personally think we can support Palestine without throwing our trans and gay populations, our immigrants, and our leftists to the wolves.
That’s the thing. We aren’t getting an alternative. We’re getting fascism. Whether we slowly slide into it with the Democrats or speed run it with the Republicans we will have to deal with the issue.
“And the other thing is I hate, they put out tapes all the time. Every night, they’re releasing tapes of a building falling down. They shouldn’t be releasing tapes like that. They’re doing, that’s why they’re losing the PR war. They, Israel is absolutely losing the PR war,” Trump said.
obviously a slow slide gives people time to leave and it offers more chances for the fascist factions to cannibalize each other. From a strategic perspective you never go with the quick option unless you think you can win the fight quickly.
At this point I despair of winning this fight at all. As long as Amazon Prime Video keeps it’s ads short enough, most people aren’t even going to notice the cops turning ever more into a paramilitary force. The list of rights SCOTUS has broken for the cops during my lifetime is frankly amazing. Not one right from the 1st to the 8th is enforceable in our courts. You can’t even protest without getting beat by the police. That fact alone should have the entire country in the streets.
We’re already hemmed in, the alarms are already going off and the collective response is to just vote for the guy who lets the fascists organize for a few more years. We’re already fucked, the goose was cooked in 2020 and we couldn’t see it because Obama did actually try and none of us imagined Biden would just… not.
That doesn’t mean roll over, it means get angry, get in the streets, demand your rights, demand a government that does more than rule by cruelty or rule by coin.
No. This isn’t what we have, this is what the wealthy elite have. We’re not making do, we’re drowning. We’ve been drowning. But everyone ignored the warnings so here we are.
humans have been making do with much less than what you have for hundreds of thousands of years. making do also does not necessarily exclude political action
That’s right up there with, “better clean that plate, there’s starving kids in China!”
It’s that very history you mention that tells me it’s time to stop supporting weak Democrats. Either we get someone strong enough to pull us back from the abyss or we’re already fucked. This story has played out time and again from the Roman Empire to Post Colonial Africa. The compromise guy is put in charge and the authoritarian runs him over.
Right. So maybe you should look at everything else they have done as president and realize there’s a lot more at stake in this election.
you mean like voting against gay marriage; lgbt in the military & federal service and then only changing his mind LONG after lgbt people fought against him and now their issues have popular support?
or maybe it’s forcing permanent student loan debt; disabling bankruptcy protections and imprisoning immigrants fleeing persecution that you like?
No he’s right. Biden has had to be dragged kicking and screaming into doing the right thing his entire career. As for what’s happening right now, he’s not reformed student loans, he’s screwed over Unions and climate change, and he didn’t effectively deal with an attempted coup.
Now he wants us to vote for him again to protect us from the guy that’s still free because Biden failed to do his most basic job. All while he’s supporting a genocide.
I would love to see you support those claims with proof that doesn’t come from Fox News. lol
What are you reading? He increased the cost to lease an oil site, increased taxes on the oil industry, created a 13 million acre oil-free reserve in Alaska, subsidized EVs and solar panels, and created an environmental task force.
Solar panels and EVs were subsidized by Obama. Biden actually rolled the EV subsidies back to protect Ford and GM who weren’t ready for EVs that weren’t luxury vehicles. They then proceeded to immediately shit the bed. NYT in April of 2023 reports that just 11 vehicles qualified after the rule changes. That list is now 12 vehicles long according to Consumer Reports.
The environmental task force… is a meeting. I’m not joking. They aren’t new agencies or new authorities. It’s just a memo requiring certain agencies to talk to each other. Which they already did.
Oh but he taxed oil, and re-closed the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. So the next guy just reverses that. If oil is even that relevant by then. He scored a point in the 50 year old argument about oil drilling. whoopdedoo. Can you tell me what he’s doing to make sure we don’t strip mine the west for Lithium and other minerals need for the future of our infrastructure? Or are we only allowed to talk about the mining that’s already winding down on the timescale?
It’s faster to repeal legislation than it is to enact it. Trump repealed 112 environmental regulations in one term, setting us back over a decade in progress. It could take 10 year to undo that damage.
I’m not here to talk about Trump. He’s a human dumpster fire.
From your own IRS help article-
The Inflation Reduction Act of 2022 changed the rules for this credit for vehicles purchased from 2023 to 2032.
It’s not a new credit. They changed the rules for an existing credit to favor domestic production down into the supply chain. Which is only met by (currently) 12 vehicles. And for 2024 it looks like Nissan and Honda both managed to get a vehicle back into compliance. (Leaf and Prologue)
And the EPA solar program is just bringing over what DoE has been doing for a decade already. It’s great that it got funding, but it’s hardly novel and we’re already saturated for solar power in many places.
That’s part of what’s soured me about Biden. He keeps taking victory laps on things we already won or that he misrepresents to the people. It started with him trying to claim a victory on immigration by making Asylum even more dangerous than it already is. It’s like watching George Bush all over again, just without the hating on minorities.
He was handed a nation in decline, with massive holes poked by Trump’s rapid repeals. It’s going to be slow to repair. Granted, I’m not a big fan of Biden either. He’s only got my anti-Trump vote.
SCOTUS repealed Affirmative Action, overturned Roe vs. Wade, and left protest law up to the states due to the heavily conservative appointments made by Trump.
Trump’s tax cuts expired for the low and middle classes in 2022, but the larger tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations continue through 2024. Biden’s tax proposal begins in 2025, with cuts for the low and middle class, and heavily increased taxes on the wealthy and corporations.
Russia will succeed in their invasion of Ukraine if the US fails to provide support, which is Trump’s position.
years ago, i lived in a community where someone had spray-painted the dumpster. it said something like “tear it all down and start over.” i endorsed that at the time.
now i am way too invested in way too many people to see it go down like that.
Honestly not sure the situation for immigrants is that much better under Biden. Especially with the immigration bill from earlier in the year they tried to pass and the It Could Happen Here episodes about the border conditions under Biden. At least during Trump’s term there were news reports and people were more active giving aid.
Really? Deporting adults and keeping their children in ICE detention centers only to physically and sexually abuse them is better? Trump was a monster to immigrants. We had nations around the world criticizing the crisis and crimes against humanity at our border.
I’m glad Biden ended family separation and has increased electronic monitoring over detention. Unfortunately, tons of people are still in abusive privately run immigration prisons. Many are dying during border crossings. Plenty of kids who immigrated are laboring in meat packing plants.
Biden continues many of Trump’s awful policies, but because he does it in a quieter, more respectable tone he receives less backlash. The lack of support people get from us is stark and the abolish ICE movement has withering away.
Both these situations are bad. I think my point is less about the election and more that we collectively should do something about these conditions. Mutual aid, volunteer, harass a representative, just something.
You’re forgetting about the year and a half long open border policy after Biden repealed Title 42, while pressing Congress to do their job and enact immigration reform. The only reason he restricted immigration was after receiving pressure from sanctuary cities. The president shouldn’t be enacting Executive Orders to control the border. That is a direct result of the failure of Congress.
They’ll have plenty of opportunities for pithy comments when Trump helps eradicate Palestine and Ukraine while tailoring the US for straight, rich, white, Christian Americans.
And the people who voted for Biden in the 2020 primary will have plenty of opportunities to claim there was nothing wrong with knowingly voting for a candidate they knew would be unpopular with people they were depending on in the general election.
I considered America a failed state 25 years ago, based on nothing but the last century of modern history, from textbooks — before 9/11, 20 years and trillions of dollars bombing the middle east to ((surrender)), the GFC, surveillance capitalism, citizens united, the rise of Trump and unadulterated fascism, etc, etc.
Guess what the last 25 years has taught me? A majority of humanity are entirely incapable of seeing beyond what’s directly and immediately in front of them! But sure… The people who saw this happening in slow motion, decades ago, are the problem! Whatever helps you sleep at night is all that matters.
“If I’m talking about electric vehicles and climate change, and then (a student) asks me, ‘What about all the emissions caused by the bombing of Gaza?’ I’m like, well, you know, can’t help you there,”
It’s such a dumb simplification and false question, what’s he supposed to do? Pull out charts demonstrating that unchecked hamas bombimg canmpaigns against Isreal would be less carbon friendly?
What the person is saying is I don’t care about the environment or any other issue so I’m going to disrupt you talking about anything else
I’d love to see them locked in a room with the just stop oil protestors that pour oil on the road trying to cause accidents - battle of the delusional egomaniac single issue voters.
How about “We’re not going to agree on every issue, or support everything that Biden does, because this isn’t a cult. Biden is imperfect, and we need to speak loud so that he hears our concerns. But it won’t matter at all if Biden loses the election. He won’t be able to do anything about anything if Trump wins, and you can be damn sure that everything you care about will be worse if that happens.
So yes, we are all of us concerned about what Israel is doing in Gaza. And we are concerned about climate change. And we are concerned about equal rights, the rule of law, foreign interference, immigration, the economy, water, food, energy, and housing, and a vote for anyone but Biden is a vote for catastrophe.”
SCOTUS repealed Affirmative Action, overturned Roe vs. Wade, and left protest law up to the states due to the heavily conservative appointments made by Trump.
Trump’s tax cuts expired for the low and middle classes in 2022, but the larger tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations continue through 2024. Biden’s tax proposal begins in 2025, with cuts for the low and middle class, and heavily increased taxes on the wealthy and corporations.
Russia will succeed in their invasion of Ukraine if the US fails to provide support, which is Trump’s position.
Well that’s the most frustrating part of the campaign. Biden is making all of the same mistakes Hillary did when it comes to motivating the base and young people. It’s like watching your grandma try to check her email. What should be a simple thing turns into an exercise in patience, but if you try to help, she gets belligerent and acts like you can’t possibly know anything she doesn’t.
Biden is bad at articulating his message. That trickles down to his volunteers. There’s never been a more important election in our lifetimes, and Biden is making unforced errors.
Biden, his administration, and the bulk of the Democratic Party deserve every bit of blowback that they are going to get from their racist, bloodthirsty, gaslighting-filled stance on Gaza. The immorality of it all is bad enough, but it’s also just politically stupid given how so much of the electorate feels. I am painfully aware of the existential threat to democracy that this election poses. For Democrats to gamble US democracy itself on their desire to fuel a genocide is unforgivable. If this godforsaken country actually elects trump, it will be entirely the result of Joe Biden and the sclerotic Democratic Party leadership. We deserve much better.
You do understand that if Biden came down hard that that would result in him losing votes from independents and that he's doing what he can with an unwinnable situation...?
Independents are not automatically centrists. They are simply people who don’t identify with either party. Chasing the mythological centrist voter is how we got here.
Edited because Auto Correct really doesn’t like independents?
They didn’t say they are excusing the genocide. They said that the Democrats and their candidate are excusing the genocide, while the GOP and their candidate, are actively frothing at the mouth to speed it up.
Why is all the pressure to compromise or accept bad candidates focused on the left? Why aren’t you encouraging the main stream Democrats and “independents” to agree to stop aiding Israel’s genocide to prevent Trump’s winning? Why is it only progressive or the left that are required to vote against their conscience to save democracy when the center could just as easily compromise to prevent fascism?
Cuz that’s how it’s always worked. The center’s never saved anyone in their lives from anything. That’s why they’re in the center. They don’t take a stand. They don’t fight for justice or equality or plurality. They’re in the center. They’re complacent. They’re easily steered. You can’t lead by never taking a stance in the first place. You can’t want to be led by somebody who’s never first.
That’s why they’re in the center. They don’t take a stand.
The center is taking a stand right now. In favor of genocide. I didn’t know they could, either. Guess they were just looking for a cause that they firmly believe in that excites them.
Sorry, I’m not going to pretend that centrist Democrats are benignly bungling into this. They’re enthusiastically supporting genocide because it’s all they’ve ever wanted.
But why can't I impose my own beliefs on people who have no beliefs!? It's not fair!
Yeah of course it's not fair, but refusing to vote for the least bad available option is insanity when the stakes are this high. These people are beyond children and will lead our entire species to its end.
of course it’s not fair, but refusing to vote for the least bad available option is insanity when the stakes are this high
That is literally the only way to get politicians to support the policies and issues that you want them to. The only thing you have that they want is your vote, they only way you will move them on an issue is if you convince them they won’t get it otherwise.
If you think the pro-genocide orange man is going to care more about your desires than Biden, I have bad news for you…
Nobody thinks that, but he is not going to make it worse. Israel is running their pogrom at the exact speed they want, Biden, and therefore the US, are not doing anything to slow them down. He gives some minor admonishment and his staff leaks to the press the he is “frustrated with Netenyahu” as if that matters. They say they will sanction some of the illegal colonizers in the West Bank, but then a couple weeks later decide not to. We continue to give Israel bombs and missiles and any other help they need in their mass murder. We are building a pier in Gaza so we can get aid past the Israeli blockade but then Biden says it will be under the control of Israel, so it will not be any more effective than any other crossing. Netenyahu wants the war to continue as it is preventing his corruption charges and the longer he can continue the better chance he has of getting his judicial and government reform in place to further consolidate his power and eventually quash any chance he will be held to account. Forcing the Democrats to actually make policy and take action to resolve the apartheid in Palestine is the only potential path in our broken political system. If you are so concerned this is going to hand Trump victory then start pressuring the centrist Dems to enforce a ceasefire now. Gain the youth vote, gain the anti genocide vote.
I mean that’d be true even with a single voter who decided not to vote. I was just wondering how many would’ve voted to begin with. It’s not usually that many
Eh kids learn to vote over time. Older people weren’t huge voters as kids either. It just means nobody really listen to kids’ voices because they don’t matter but it is what it is
Yep. Boomers voted to mortgage everybody’s futures and continue to do so. Nothing we can do about that but hope they don’t burn down the planet on their way out.
The phrase “there are 3 bad choices for president” is true, but is so hilariously reductionist. I’m not saying you, in particular, are evaluating it through this lense, just that there is a difference between the “bad” here, and it’s really, really obvious.
There’s a difference between being okay with something and begrudgingly working with circumstances while simultaneously criticizing people who give up because things aren’t perfect.
I’m not okay with Biden being the best candidate, but that doesn’t make abstention a viable voting strategy.
Begrudgingly working with circumstances and giving up because things aren’t perfect can easily be the same thing. That criticism has got to come with some cognitive dissonance.
Well yeah, but that’s a pretty broad spectrum. Giving up by not participating at all is a higher degree of apathy than “giving up” by realistically evaluating your situation and recognizing that participating in a deeply flawed system will still have a chance of moving the needle in the direction you want it to go, or at least stopping it from moving the other direction.
Right, so I wouldn’t equivocate students protesting staunch support for a genocide as ‘giving up’. These are specifically people trying to move the needle of a deeply flawed system.
To quote old song, they’re ‘young people speaking their minds getting so much resistance from behind.’
Your only acceptable measure of that is if I vote for Biden which makes me unable to realistically evaluate my situation by definition. There’s no point in making this argument. We aren’t going to see things the same way. One of us has to compromise. If you can’t see it’s moderates and liberals turn to make some serious and material compromises leftwards then you never will.
No, that’s not what I’m saying at all. The situation is that you will realistically have two choices for president. Voting for anything other than one of those two choices is effectively pointless as it will have no impact on the outcome except to withhold a vote from one of the two candidates that are going to win.
Anything else that you choose is symbolic at best but effectively meaningless.
If there’s a plan for a better outcome I can white knuckle my way through a lot of situations in life. Sure, shit happens and sometimes we just gotta deal with it but if I feel like this isn’t something we’re going to be able to avoid in the future I want to opt out entirely. Think of a camping trip where the tent is leaking. If we’re not planning on replacing the tent I don’t want to go camping again.
So with Biden sure I can white knuckle through it if I think 2028 primaries are going to produce someone better but they won’t. You can blame “young voters” if you want. Personally I point to the fact that nobody is apologizing for voting for Biden in the 2020 primaries. If they’re not apologizing that means they don’t see how their decisions negatively impacted me or don’t see a problem with negatively impacting me so they’re going to repeat the behavior.
I’m not interested in white knuckling through that. People are free to keep camping with a leaky tent I won’t stop them but I won’t be participating any more than I can control.
Please don’t respond with some kind of counter comparative example or taking my made up comparison to some kind of scientific degree. It’s just a conceptual tool for the purposes of the conversation. Telling me it doesn’t apply isn’t going to change the way I view the situation or my decisions.
If I get the sense that 2028 would somehow be better I’d reconsider.
Even though you preemptively asked people not to provide a counterpoint, I feel the need to highlight a problem with your analogy that you seen to already be aware of.
Your position of “I don’t want to go camping anymore” is a fantasy. The only way to achieve that is to emigrate to another country. The real situation is: you’re going to sleep outside. Do you want a leaky tent or a ragged old tarp? Those are your only two choices. If you do not make a choice, then you are leaving the choice up to everyone else.
If you’re okay with that, then sobeit. It is your right to opt out of participating in the political process, but that doesn’t change which tent you’re going to end up sleeping in. If you’re an American, you’re along for the ride whether you like it or not. Your choice to opt out does not change the outcome, it merely cedes control to everyone else.
I tend to agree with your main point though. I’m pretty exhausted with everyone around me selecting the same deteriorated tents that we’ve been using for the last 50 years because “that’s the only way enough people will select it over the moldy tarp” instead of considering a new one that actually works, or at least has fewer leaks.
I’d like us to just remember the Iran hostage crisis and the Carter/Reagan Election. Carter negotiated in good faith to try to get the US hostages released. It didn’t work because Reagan had paid the Iranians some $40 million through Earl Brian to keep the hostages until after the election. Just an hour or so after Reagan was sworn into office, the hostages were released. This tipped the scales of the election.
Why do I bring this up now? Because the situation with Israel and Gaza is bad for Biden. He knows it and seems to be trying to do something to stop it. However, it is really in Trump’s interest, and even seems to be Israel’s plan anyway, to keep the war going as long as possible. For all we know, Trump is paying off Israel to not agree to a ceasefire.
So, just keep in mind who is being hurt by the situation and who has more to gain from the war going on indefinitely.
I guess the people pushing this don’t understand elections because Russia hasn’t had real ones in so long? Or is it just the new wave of idealistic anti intellectualism? ‘I have a moral cause so I don’t need to meaningfully interact with reality!’
Here’s a take… it would be infinitely worse under the GOP. At least Biden and Blinken have attempted to cool tensions and persuade Bibi to stop. They have, at a minimum, delayed some violence.
This is Biden pressuring Netanyahu to stop killing American employees of a celebrity chef, after Israel had already killed all 7 of them. I’m glad Biden has a line, I guess?
lol that happened 3 hours ago. I hadn’t heard about it yet.
Good. If Biden holds it until the election I’ll vote for him. I’d prefer he hold it after the election too but I suspect he’ll resume immediately following the results.
EDIT: Kinda ridiculous to say “Biden never did anything” and reference an article 3 hours old. Yeah, up until 3 hours ago he hadn’t done anything.
The argument isn’t “don’t vote for biden” it’s “stop deflecting the harm your candidate is actively doing by pointing at someone else”. Why is that so hard to understand? The fact the democrats want to die on the hill of commiting genocide and squashing student protests against it is their own fault, no one elses.
Is it the fact that many people consider it the strongest motivation for not voting for biden?
Is it the fact that people are putting in a lot of time and effort to change the position of one of the candidates before the election?
Is it the fact that people protesting against this around election time makes you unhappy the reason you think it isn’t an election issue.
Shut the fuck up. Stop talking and stop spreading this braindead take that is begging to remain at the pro-genocide status quo. You don’t get to decide whether or not it is an election issue for everyone.
I’ve seen and been at protests against my congressmen, mayors, state houses, and governors. People have been doing these types of protests since October. Just because the current wave of protests is campus occupations.
Also, if you think this is solely a congressional issue, you fundamentally do not understand what the president can do in a situation like this.
No, it’s because of the truth that continued support of genocide will cause Biden to lose Michigan and other states as well. Which means Trump wins.
To prevent that, Biden needs to change policy immediately
If people are mad at a government then they will not vote to re-elect that government. Which is how democracy is supposed to work. Not that it matters, because our democracy is not long for this world anyway
We’re going in circles. Anyone who abstains from voting in protest of Israel support will be allowing someone to win that supports Israel more. It’s that simple.
If Biden’s support of genocide makes him unacceptable, then people will not vote for him. They will not vote for trump either. Which means they will either vote 3rd party, vote uncommitted, or not vote at all.
All of which certainly increases the likelihood that Trump wins. Which is Netanyahu’s goal.
Biden should change US policy on Israel to mitigate these losses. Otherwise he will lose Michigan, and likely the election.
The point is that, for many people, Never Again actually meant Never Again. Funding a genocide is a nonstarter for many who were taught that the Holocaust must never again occur
You’re just steeped in buzzwords aren’t you. No wonder wrong think is unacceptable among young liberals, you all operate on the same bullshit, and call anyone who disagrees even a little bit a right winger, even if they’re so far left of you that they left you in the dust
Did I say you were a right winger? I said you were trying to deflect from defending Biden because you don’t have anything to defend him with. That rather presumes you’re a Democrat at least.
No, you’re allowed an opinion, but you’re starting to realize your opinion means Jack shit in your system unless you have lobbyists with deep pockets. Don’t get mad at me bro, I didn’t create the system
That anyone would use Trump’s non-theoretical fascism to goad a vote for Biden is offensive. These are the stakes and Biden still won’t listen. That’s on him.
No, that is one of the stakes. Single-issue voting is extremely narrow-minded, and Trump would undoubtedly make things worse in the single issue you’re emphasizing.
And yet single issue voters exist. Pretending they don’t isn’t going to work. Scolding them isn’t going to work. The Democratic party and Biden in particular need to adapt.
These people would prefer for Biden to lose, and I’m quite convinced that they don’t really care why or how. Genocide is the buzzword of the year, but if Israel and Gaza make peace tomorrow, all of these people will all have new reasons why Democratic voters should stay home or burn their ballots.
Oh make no mistake, I’m voting for Joe no matter what. The only alternative is Donald Trump, and Donald Trump wants to destroy the Republic. Joe could send American troops into Rafah to glass it today, and I’d hold my nose and go vote for him in November. That’s just facing reality.
Would I prefer things were different? Of course, but however much legitimate criticism might be laid at Biden’s feet for not doing more to stop the genocide in Gaza, Trump has already wholly endorsed completely annihilating the Palestinian people, and he wants genocide in the US besides.
You’re just as disingenuous with your argument as you are with your position. Anybody who wants to know what I legitimately said can read it.
Entertaining a terrible hypothetical to make a point is not the same as being okay with it–and I think you know that already. For example, I still engaged with you lot because I think there might be some benefit for someone reading this exchange to realize that these issues are complicated and nuanced, and they deserve critical thinking. That doesn’t mean I’m okay with you. Fortunately, unlike with global politics, the consequences of ending this engagement are nonexistent.
Not a binary proposition. Support Israel and lose voters, abandon Israel and lose more and different voters. Diplomacy is hard. Politics is hard.
Part of the reason it’s hard in this particular situation is bad actors pretending that geopolitics can be reduced to a soundbyte and that the problem is simple and easy.
Support Israel and lose voters, abandon Israel and lose more and different voters.
So just making sure I’ve got this right. When potential voters say, “This policy of enabling genocide is a deal-breaker for me, I won’t vote for you if you don’t change this stance,” they’re being naïve about the complexity of politics and the current situation in Palestine, if not actually just bad actors, but when other voters say “I won’t vote for you if you stop enabling genocide,” they’re playing 5d chess that us simpletons with morals just can’t keep up with, right? Because that’s basically what you’ve just wrote.
It’s always the left who are being unreasonable for refusing to compromise, but when center-right genocide sympathizers refuse to compromise on their stance, tough luck, kid, that’s just politics. The enlightened centrists here are shrieking about the end of democracy if you don’t fall in line with them, as all the while they happily march down the path to the end of democracy.
Exactly. And nothing illustrates this better than the fact that nobody is apologizing for electing Biden in the 2020 primaries. Their political viewpoints are sacrosanct. Ours are petty and childish.
Then you’re okay with the alternative? That’s fine, you are entitled to your opinion. The reality is we have a first past the post system. Wild to me that people are okay with another Trump term
Man don’t bother. These people aren’t against genocide. They all have no problem with Ukrainian genocide or any genocide the Chinese want to carry out.
Good Lord buddy, learn to read. Nobody said Ukraine was committing a genocide. Ukrainian genocide clearly means of the Ukrainian people. Or you under the impression that The Armenian Genocide was a genocide carried out by the Armenians?
Oh. Ok. Is the US supporting Russia in their genocide of Ukraine? Are we supporting China’s genocide?
Because we’re supporting Netanyahu’s genocide. You love it and want it to continue, and that’s the only reason you decided to ignore the rest of my comment.
That is correct. The options at the polls for Palestinians are bad or worse. Better is just not on the table. All the more reason that protests should happen elsewhere.
You make it seem like they’re the same on Israel. We both know they’re not.
Despite your contempt for Biden, he has been far better than Trump in every other area of running this nation, unless you’re a rich white industrialist.
You make it seem like they’re the same on Israel. We both know they’re not.
I didn’t say they were. It’s why I’m voting for Biden.
Unlike you, I’m unhappy to vote for the continuation of genocide, and I bitterly resent being manipulated into doing so by people who are just happy it’s happening.
I want people to understand that protesting genocide should happen in the street, and not at the polls. You seem to want to create friction rather than provide information.
This is a post about supporting Biden in the face of genocide. Did you not read the article that spurred the conversation? No one here is supporting genocide. It’s a conversation about voting. By commenting that Biden needs to change his stance on genocide, you imply a lack of support unless he does. How is that not clear? It’s contextual.
Even in the single issue of genocide, Trump is worse.
He is, yes. Why are you trying to convince me? I’m already voting for Biden. Do you suppose your scolding and utter inability to listen is gonna convince single-issue voters to vote for the genocide you support?
Biden must adapt to the political reality. There are people who won’t vote for him because he supports genocide.
I’m not one of them. but since you don’t want Biden to abandon support for genocide, you’ll keep ignoring that and lecturing me for pointing out what Biden needs to do.
I never said that. You repeatedly misrepresent my stance in an attempt to escalate the discussion. It won’t work with me. I would love Biden to take the unprecedented steps to withdraw all support from Israel. I don’t expect it to happen at all, let alone by November. Every time you comment to equate that action to votes for Biden, you will see my corrective reply.
Biden must adapt if he wants the votes of PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT ME but won’t vote like you want them to because for them, the genocide you do nothing but support is a dealbreaker.
Now ignore the all-caps portion and act like I’m a trumpist some more, since you can’t defend genocide.
US has been supporting genocide for more than 50 years. Glad you’ve become enlightened lol. Stop denigrating Biden for US policy dating back a century.
Okay, then I guess those votes aren’t on the table either. Democrats have a tough choice to make: do they want to support genocide and lose votes or do they want to stop supporting genocide and gain votes? Why are voters being attacked for exercising their democratic right to vote (or not vote) as they please, but politicians whose entire job is to gain votes are excused for not appealing to voters?
You’re not punishing Democrats by abstaining. You’re punishing yourself to make a point that won’t be conveyed. I’m also not attacking. I’m making sure you are fully aware of the consequences you’re accepting by making whatever choice you choose to make. You do you. Just don’t pretend you don’t know what’s going to happen if you abstain.
I agree. Protest this abomination. Just don’t dilute yourself into thinking that allowing Trump back into the White House would improve the chances of Palestinian survival.
The point is getting conveyed a hell of a lot more than by guaranteeing votes to democrats for their “greater boogeyman” strategy. If democrats are hellbent on keeping things terrible, then voting for them isn’t really a solution. My plan is to vote democrats to give them as much of a majority as possible so they can have as little excuse as possible for when they don’t do what they claim they want to do, but I can understand people who don’t want to vote for them.
I’m not judging people who don’t want to vote. I’m commenting to ensure they have the knowledge that abstaining will lead to another Trump presidency, and what the last one looked like under the noise shield of his antics. If he’s their second choice, then they should absolutely abstain or vote third-party.
Everyone is well aware of this, democrats make sure to tell everyone this because it’s their only strategy instead of listening to voters and actually improving things.
Where has Biden verbally supported Israel or their actions? What power do you think that he has that he can just stop everything? Do you think that he can just unilaterally end years of agreement and contracts for weapons? Do you think that any other President could have actually done anything different to change what’s happening? The answer is likely no. No single President can control Congress, or make laws, or directly control another country’s actions. Bernie could have won, and screamed until he was blue in the face, like he is now, and all of those weapons still would have shipped out this year.
We are not living in a distopia, so we’re definitely not living in a total distopia. Maybe if you live in Ukraine or Gaza you could make that argument, but if you’re in the US, it sure isn’t distopia yet.
So the kids are left with the following options: vote for Biden and genocide is permitted or let Trump win and even more genocide is permitted.
Faced with a shit sandwich, they chose an option that no one saw on the board: demand that the genocide end. I think that’s pretty rad, but maybe others don’t see it the same way. I admire the protesters.
I agree with protesting, just not at the polls. You would be choosing a worse fate for Palestinians, Ukrainians, and Americans in an attempt to make a point that won’t be made.
Explain to me how boycotting an election and allowing Trump to win will improve the situation in Gaza. You’re either ignorant to Trump’s support of Netanyahu, or putting ego in front of principle and would rather let more Palestinians die just so you can say you abstained.
So you make claims but can’t back them up? Maybe you should keep your comments to yourself if you can’t substantiate them, and take some time to learn some more about the topic.
Don’t get me wrong; I’ll vote for genocidal-Joe, despite my extreme dislike of his policy toward Israel. I’m not stupid and neither are the kids. But the kids are still trying to force his hand and they should. I hope they vote for him too. But to threaten not to in an attempt to save Palestinian lives is a solid move. I hope they vote against fascism when the time comes. And I hope Brandon feels the pressure and changes his policy in the meantime.
I agree. Protest everywhere but the polls. The posted article, as well as the topic, is voting. That’s the only reason there’s such a disconnect in the comments.
I believe they’re talking about Democrat electors, like Schumer and Bernie. No one here is against speaking out or protesting. The topic is voting. If people abstain, Trump will win. His unwavering base will make sure of that.
Also, you said you’re not a democrat. Which is it? Or do you just manipulate your stance to fit the narrative you’re selling?
I thought you had written that you left the party years ago. My mistake. Also, accusing people of loving genocide is despicable and further discrediting to you. Of course I’m passionately against killing of any kind, especially when targeting a specific group.
I’m not defending Biden’s support of Israel. This post is about voting, and yes, I’m absolutely reluctantly voting for him to keep Trump from a second term. You are either completely ignorant to the implications of your comments or you are actively trying to get Trump into office.
I’m not angry. In fact, I’m quite well adjusted. You should consider paying more attention to your well being and less attention to opportunities to attack and misrepresent others online.
Yeah, they’re speaking out against the protests. Biden even got in on it with his short speech recently finger wagging the student protests, in case you were wondering how much democrats care about acting against genocide.
What is the answer? People are commenting like they can just abstain and everything will work out. I’m commenting as an anti-Trump voter. Provide a suggestion that isn’t whining about bad choices and I’ll listen.
The answer is to continue to pressure democrats, known as “the good party”, to actually do good things they claim they want to do but refuse to actually do.
I completely agree. I’m only commenting against the inaccuracy of protesting at the polls. The topic of this thread and post is supporting Biden in the election, not in his support of Israel.
The answer is for people who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries to apologize for putting us in this position. Otherwise they’re just gonna do it again in 2028.
It would demonstrate some self awareness from the people who created this situation. If they plan on behaving differently in the next primaries then it’s worth it to hold my nose and vote for Biden again in the hopes of having someone substantially better in 2028.
The fact that there is no apology means whoever is elected in the 2028 primaries won’t be any better. It’s probably going to be HRC.
Are you talking about the DNC providing limited options in the primary, or those who voted in the primary? You can vote in any primary just by changing your registration. I’ve done it several times. I have no party loyalty. I’m loyal to my ideals and will vote in any primary that looks to benefit my ideals best.
He talked about these elements as if they were the entirety of the movement. It doesn’t matter how much you police the movement, any jackass can make the movement look bad with the help of biden and the media pretending like they represent the movement.
Sure I get that, but I would also point out that you aren’t personally getting food into Gaza. Trump is going to tear down the humanitarian aid for Palestinians that Biden and the Democrats are working through the diplomatic process.
When Trump is elected and this genocide becomes a success, make no mistake, you will have had a hand in that, and I think you would lose that ability to criticize Biden.
the humanitarian aid for Palestinians that Biden and the Democrats are working through the diplomatic process.
This is not happening. It’s a fairy tale
this genocide becomes a success
Already is.
I think you would lose that ability to criticize Biden.
I think everyone who voted for Biden in 2020, which includes me, is culpable for this genocide.
Unfortunately, the United States is not a democracy. It is a dictatorship of the oligarchs. Which means there is no way to influence policy on which the oligarchs agree. This Zionist genocide is one such example. Another is single payer healthcare. And workplace democracy.
This country is a hellhole whose living conditions will continue to deteriorate for the rest of our lives, much like they have since 1968. Voting for Biden or for trump will not change that.
Moving to somewhere like Denmark is the best possible option. No American should have any hope for this country. It is naive to think that Biden and The Democrats will do anything to meaningfully improve the country or the world. They are owned by the oligarchs - they just don’t actively hate guys or women.
You are privileged enough to go to Denmark, that’s great.
They aren’t accepting over 300 million migrants. Just because you won’t be paying the repurcussions for your helping the Trump campaign doesn’t make you the moral beacon you pretend to be.
No, I can’t go to Denmark, actually. Everyone who can go, should go.
This country is fucked regardless of who wins. Neoliberals like the Democrats have destroyed the United States and killed the New Deal. Which is inevitably going to cause this country to elect a fascist. If not Trump in 2024, then someone else in 2028 or 2032. There is no way out of this except for socialism, or, at the least, social democracy. Which is impossible, because our oligarchs will never allow such a thing.
You and I are on the Titanic. Neither of us are getting a lifeboat. Accept that.
I gotta say this message has a pretty big red flag for me. The American movement is referred to as Democratic Socialism.
I don’t think an American leftist would make that mistake, nor be unaware that our movement is actively infiltrating the democratic party, nor that our relevance within the Democratic Party has never been greater.
I’m sorry, but I think you are almost certainly astroturfing.
Sanders is a self-proclaimed democratic socialist. But so what? You think the average person under 40 is actually afraid of socialism? You think that’s a bad word? What are you, a boomer?
Also, considering that you’re defending American oligarchy and genocide, it’s pretty clear that you’re astroturfing
The term you used “social democracy” is not what the movement is called in the US. That’s a European thing. democratic socialism is the movement Americans Americans are fighting for.
It’s curious that when I pointed this out to you, you immediately accused me of being a boomer in the air force afraid of Democratic socialism despite just being told I am one.
The term you used “social democracy” is not what the movement is called in the US
Social democracy and democratic socialism are two completely different things. The former is liberalism (with an enormous welfare state - which is what the Nordic countries have and what the US has never actually had and have diminished since 1968.) The latter is socialism. Please do not correct anyone about misuse of terms unless you actually understand what you’re talking about. Log off and read before spreading ignorance - unless you enjoy being accused of astroturfing.
We all know of his support. What you don’t seem to recognize is that Trump will be worse. Protest Biden’s support of Israel. Just don’t pretend that things will be get better by supporting Trump. We all know that’s a lie.
Also, the Republicans tried to pass Israel aid independent of Ukraine and Taiwan aid. Don’t pretend for a second that the Democrats in Congress are morally inferior to the Republicans.
What are the elements of the crime of genocide, and how were they all present in Iraq?
Gaza is worse than that abomination because of Israels clear intent to exterminate a people. Which is what makes it genocide. This isn’t a war with an unacceptably large amount of deaths - its a targeted extermination campaign that is also engaging in ethnic cleansing and collective punishment
If you can’t see the vilification and indiscriminate killing of Arabs as genocidal, and you’d rather argue semantics, then technically speaking Netanyahu’s horrific actions in Gaza are not genocide until determined by the ICC. Saying “Bush wouldn’t even do this” is absurd.
Genocide is a crime. Crimes have elements. Tell me how Iraq meets all of those elements
Its why Maos great leap forward isn’t genocide. Did millions of people die? Yes. Did the CCP intend for those people to die? No. As opposed to the holocaust wherein the deaths of 9 million people were the clear intent.
Here, Netanyahu wants to exterminate the gazans and is doing so. Which makes it genocide
Mens rea/mental intent is a necessary and critical element of all criminal law. It’s the distinguishing factor between murder and manslaughter. Or between genocide and neoconservative “nation building”. It isn’t semantics
It is determined when the elements of a crime are satisfied.
A murderer has committed murder even if they are never arrested by law enforcement. Shoplifting has still occurred even if the thief is never prosecuted. Israel is committing genocide even if the ICC and ICJ (which are overwhelmingly funded by the United States and the West) never obtain a conviction.
Great, so we can either call killing 35,000 Palestinians and 900,000+ Arabs genocide, or agree it’s not by law. Semantics doesn’t change what happened in 2002, just like it doesn’t change what’s happening in Gaza now. Wrong is wrong, and saying Bush wouldn’t do this is wildly ignorant.
Bush didn’t do this. War crimes may have been committed at Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib relating to torture and unlawful treatment of prisoners. And murder certainly occurred via Blackwater’s massacres. But no targeted extermination of Iraqis as a group occurred.
During the Iraq War under the George W. Bush administration, there were significant allegations and documented instances of war crimes, particularly concerning the treatment of prisoners and the use of torture. However, the term “genocide” is specific and typically refers to acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group. There is no consensus or legal finding that genocide occurred during the Iraq War under these definitions.
Regarding war crimes:
Treatment of Prisoners and Torture The most notorious example was the abuse and torture of detainees at Abu Ghraib prison, which came to light in 2004. Photographs showing U.S. military personnel abusing and humiliating Iraqi prisoners sparked global outrage. Investigations revealed that the abuses included physical and sexual abuse, torture, rape, sodomy, and murder. These acts were violations of the Geneva Conventions, which protect detainees from inhumane treatment.
Legal Consequences: Some soldiers involved in the Abu Ghraib scandal were court-martialed, convicted, and sentenced to varying terms. However, higher-ranking officials and policymakers were largely not held accountable, leading to widespread criticism and allegations of impunity.
The broader context of the Iraq War includes other allegations of war crimes, such as the use of disproportionate force and illegal weapons.
However, genocide has a precise definition.
The crime of genocide is defined under international law by specific elements that must be present for an act to be legally recognized as genocide. These elements are outlined primarily in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948) and are further refined in the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (1998). Here are the critical elements:
Intent to Destroy: The perpetrator must have intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group, as such. This is known as the “special intent” or “dolus specialis”.
Protected Groups: The targeted group must be identifiable and protected under the Convention, specifically as a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group.
Prohibited Acts: The Convention specifies the following acts, when committed with intent to destroy a protected group:
Killing members of the group.
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group.
Deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about the group’s physical destruction.
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group.
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
The Rome Statute also includes the forcible transfer of a group as an act of genocide when it is intended to destroy the group’s identity.
These elements combine to form the legal framework that courts and international bodies use to determine whether acts constitute genocide, focusing heavily on the perpetrator’s intent alongside the nature of the acts committed.
You’re getting all the representation you can get from Senate and House Democrats. Schumer spoke against this in January. Bernie repeated last month, and so on. Congress is now divided on this as a partisan issue, but ignorance puts it all on the president, whose office has been in support of Israel in this conflict since it began under Reagan. A Republican in office would only escalate this into a war with Iran after Palestine is eradicated.
I didn’t see that. Thank you for the link. That was in December, before Netanyahu began indiscriminately killing Palestinians in Gaza, during the early stages of defense after the Iron Dome breach in October.
I’m not painting a narrative. I’m simply aware that Republicans have historically emboldened Israel with the goal of an active war with Iran. They leverage Hamas, Hezbollah, and Houthis as justification to go hot with Iran. I’m still in stark disagreement that things would be better with Bush, or any other Republican in the presidency.
Maga assholes are having a grand time twisting the knife in this wound trying to drive a wedge in the voting block. It’s clearly working.
The people who are drawing the line at genocide in Gaza are being disingenuous at best. Foreign policy is, believe it or not, far more complicated than people make it out to seem. Making every effort to de-escalate the conflict at the negotiating table comes before burning bridges with arguably our last and only stalwart ally in the middle east.
Here’s some nuance then: Why would people listen to all the finger wagging assholes telling us to shut the fuck up for Biden while refusing to apologize for electing him in the 2020 primaries?
They created this problem and now they’re expecting us to hold our noses and deal with it without so much as acknowledging that’s what they’re doing.
That’s voting for Trump. We all know his base is delusional and unwavering. With that knowledge we are charged with the responsibility to stop him. It’s not like sitting out will result in a third option.
Of course they can. I’m just providing factual information to help them understand the results of abstaining from the vote. If they want to vote for Trump, they can vote for him, abstain, or vote third-party and achieve the same result.
That’s the “complicated foreign policy” that OP is taking about. There are a ton of reasons to have allies all over the world, which surprisingly includes the Middle East. It could be for military, economic, informational, or other reasons.
That’s just pure bullshit. Under the Leahy amendment they’re not even allowed to send weapons to countries credibly accused of human rights abuses, and the state department’s just sitting on those reports instead of following the law.
You could literally impeach the President over this, but obviously the majority of Congress is ok with the president breaking that law.
They’re right. The weapons agreement was already in place and paid for by Israel prior to any criminal accusations by the ICC. The subsequent aid was unnecessary, but it was the only leverage to get the Republicans in Congress to pass Ukraine aid.
You could literally impeach the President over this
You’re telling me that the Republicans who have been grasping at straws for four years to come up with an excuse to impeach Biden are letting this impeachable offense pass them by? Sorry, but I don’t believe you.
Republicans are overwhelmingly Zionists who would never criticize a Democrat for supporting Israel. If anything, they would impeach Biden for not sending Israel enough bombs and guns to use to murder innocent Gazans
So you don’t want Biden, but you don’t want Trump either, but you can’t have it both ways. No matter if you turn out to vote or not, you are getting one of those two choices. That’s a fact. We’re stuck in the Prisoner’s Dilemma Election, and it’s time to decide if we’re going to play the game to win or not.
There’s far more at stake this year than just the fate of Gaza, but shortsightedness is going to kill us.
Saying that there’s far more at stake than an ongoing genocide minimizes genocide.
My solution is to protest as loudly as possible and donate my time, money, and energy to stopping genocide, and not waste anyone’s time by trying to inhumanly minimize genocide.
More than one thing can be true at the same time. Stopping the genocide in Gaza is important. Stopping the rise of fascism in America is important. Stopping the erosion of civil liberties in America is important. Minimizing genocide would be me saying “It’s not that bad”, which I don’t believe is true. It is that bad. I just disagree with the apparent strategy that the nascent leftists have embraced, which is to cut off the nose to spite the face, a strategy that will ultimately end up with a continuation of the status quo at best and risks a rapid acceleration of all of the problems I mentioned above in the worst case scenario.
By all means, protest and donate your money and time to the effort. That seems to be making an impact to some degree.
None of that is going to stop by voting for Biden, lol. We are seeing a rise in fascism, an erosion of civil liberties, and genocide, under Biden. Yes, Trump would probably be worse on some of these aspects, or even all, but we are already well beyond what should be unacceptable.
Protesting and donating is doing far more for gazans than sucking up to Biden and minimizing his atrocities ever will, and I say that as someone that will likely still vote for him.
“According to the IHRA, that definition also encompasses the “targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity”.
The group also includes certain examples in its definition to illustrate anti-Semitism. Saying, for instance, that “the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor” would be deemed anti-Semitic under its terms. The definition also bars any comparison between “contemporary Israeli policy” and “that of the Nazis”.”
Also the tiktok ban is because of its contributions to anti-Israeli sentiment among young people.
That’s not true. It’s because of it’s ties to China. if it were just about Anti-Israeli sentiment, they wouldn’t allow the platform to exist by allowing Bytedance to sell it to an American company. I also don’t agree with the TikTok ban, for the record, but I’m not making up bullshit about what the ban is actually about.
The antisemitism bill was passed with veto proof majorities.
The anti-BDS laws are currently in effect in many states, and have been for years
Tik Tok is only able to blast anti-Israeli content onto the screens of Americans because it is owned by China. This is because China wants to destroy western international institutions such as the ICC ICJ UN etc. They plan to do this, in part, by eroding all of our moral credibility by pointing out that we have no interest in stopping genocide when it is perpetrated by our (white, settler colonialist) allies. This is designed to contribute to their longterm plan of destroying the Bretton Woods system and the western rules based world order that was created after WWII. Which is also the goal of BRICS, which is to replace the dollar as the world’s currency.
Highlighting Israel’s war crimes, and the West’s support of such, is one of the many steps to achieve those longterm goals - and tiktok helps them achieve that result.
“Order must prevail” - Biden to protestors calling him out for genocide. Violent crackdowns on student protestors.
Allowing Roe V Wade to be overturned and no plan to reinstate abortion protections. Refusing to pack the courts or play hardball, just letting everything increasingly slip away.
Literal genocide actively funded by Biden.
This is well beyond the point of no return. If Biden had an R next to his name with the same amount of fascism, Blue MAGA might actually give a damn about the lives of Palestinians, instead of trying to pretend Biden is some great hero and shitting on protestors for daring to call him out.
Biden to protestors calling him out for genocide. Violent crackdowns on student protestors.
Last I checked, the executive is not in control of state or local police departments. He did not command them to crack down on protests. He’s doing what a president is supposed to do, which is be the voice of reason. He has never said that the protests were wrong. In fact, he is on record saying that everybody has the right to protest, but they must do so legally. Trespassing and destruction of property are not legal. Sorry if that hurts your feelings. I’m sure you’d feel different about it if people broke into your house and wrecked your shit and then tried to argue that they shouldn’t be arrested because it’s their first amendment right to protest.
Allowing Roe V Wade to be overturned
Who appointed the conservative majority that led to that decision? Trump. Yeah, let’s blame the guy sitting in the chair now for the shit his predecessor got rolling last term. Real intelligent take there.
Refusing to pack the courts or play hardball,
If he packed the courts, you’d be saying he’s undemocratic for that. Give me a break. FYI, Biden is pushing for stronger federal protections on abortion rights, so he is doing everything in his power to change things within the framework of his authority in the government. The president is not a king. Congress and the Judicial have to play ball as well.
By the way, packing the courts won’t get Roe v Wade reinstates because they could always decide to not hear the case again. That’s going to take a legislative effort to fix the problem that the courts created in the first place.
Literal genocide actively funded by Biden.
Didn’t ask about that, because the answer was obvious, but thanks for volunteering the information again.
Ah yes, the “voice of reason” is telling students to accept getting absolutely blasted by Zionist fascists and cops for protesting against his genocide. It’s telling that you consider police brutality “the voice of reason,” lmao.
If Biden packed the courts, I would be happy that he took a stance against Conservatives. He would actually be representing the will of the people if he did that, the fact that you have to invent my position for me proves just how little you understand leftists.
I am fully aware that packing the courts won’t get Roe back, lol. What it would do is prevent similar far-right bullshit, but Joe is okay with it so he won’t.
You’re doing a great job illustrating how you are okay with fascism.
Wow, talk about inventing positions. Biden saying “please don’t violate the law when you protest” is the same as “telling students to accept getting absolutely blasted by Zionist fascists and cops for protesting against his genocide”?
You know what? I’ve got a lot better things to be doing with my weekend than arguing with you about this. I live in reality, so it’ll be impossible for us to ever see eye to eye on things. Sounds like you’ve got a really busy schedule of protesting and donating your time and money in a single-minded fervor, so why don’t you get back to doing that, sport? You’re just wasting words on me.
Yes, it is, actually. The protests have been peaceful, with more violence coming from the fascist Zionists. Biden is okay with that, he’s a self-admitted Zionist, and is trying to frame civil disobediance as violent.
You don’t live in reality, you live in your own privledged bubble, which is why you are batting for a fascist committing genocide.
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