“We as American Jews believe that ‘never again’ means never again for anyone, and that includes Palestinians,” said JVP, referring to the refrain repeated by the Jewish American community regarding the need to prevent genocide. “‘Never again’ is this very moment.”
Something so common sense will surely fall on deaf ears.
I asked once why the law (Jewish religious law) said don’t kill, steal etc then said of Amallites not to leave one alive, man, woman or child. The answer? “Jewish law doesn’t apply to gentiles.”
Thinking about this some more, I have a feeling you misinterpreted what “Jewish law doesn’t apply to gentiles” means. If I, a Jew, eat bacon, it’s considered a sin. If a non-Jew eats bacon, it’s not considered a sin. Jewish laws (restrictions, observances, etc) don’t apply to non-Jews. It doesn’t mean that Jews are allowed to treat non-Jews however they want with no repercussions.
This isn’t quite true. First of all, I’m guessing you mean the Amalekites. The reason they are singled out is because they followed the Israelites during the Exodus from Egypt. They attacked from the rear to target the slowest people - the elderly and children. This gave them a “special status” so to speak with a commandment to wipe them out.
That being said, there are no Amalekites nowadays. There might be spiritual successors of them - people who want to wipe out all Jews no matter what and who will start with the elderly and children - but these people don’t get “Amalekite treatment.”
Apart from this exception (which, again, has no relevance in the modern world), Jewish law absolutely applies to how we treat non-Jews.
This is not genocide. The Israeli army has a massive amount of weapons with which it could commit genocide if it truly wanted to. The situation is horrible and the loss of civilians lives is also horrible but this is not genocide. Misusing that term risks it losing all meaning.
They are doing that. They are bombing an area after making it impossible for people to evacuate by giving an impossible deadline. They are bombing the areas people are told to take on the way to evacuate. The people they are bombing have no defenses or way to escape. Israel’s own government officials have referred to Palestinians as animals and said there are no innocents among them. That’s what genocide looks like before having the benefit of hindsight.
This is not genocide. The German army has a massive amount of weapons with which it could commit genocide if it truly wanted to. The situation is horrible and the loss of civilians lives is also horrible but this is not genocide. Misusing that term risks it losing all meaning.
Nobody serious is proposing that. Israel has some crazy right wingers but there’s no chance they do that. Unlike Hamas who, if given the opportunity, would eagerly do that to Israelis.
Israel has nuclear weapons and f16s. If they tried to commit genocide they would succeed. If Palestinians had those weapons, they would literally commit genocide immediately as it is stated in Hamas’ founding charter.
Israel is dependent on foreign aid, do you think their allies wouldn’t notice if they bombed and killed millions of people at once? There would be a response from other countries in the area as well. Even the Nazis took a lot of effort to hide the holocaust during the execution of it. Where in Hamas’ founding charter does it state “we will commit genocide if we have the power.”? And even if it did, Hamas is not the Palestinian people, they haven’t had an election since 2006 and there are several other militant groups within Palestine.
“After some general explanatory language about Hamas’s religious foundation and noble intentions, the covenant comes to the Islamic Resistance Movement’s raison d’être: the slaughter of Jews. “The Day of Judgement will not come about,” it proclaims, “until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.””
yes, for the last 18 years Palestinians haven’t had anything to do, and had such horrid conditions that they had a population boom and over 50% of the people in the Gaza Strip are under 18 years old, but interestingly these population booms only happen when a group of people hits on extremely bad circumstances for a longer period of time
The UN has issued countless human rights notices against Israel, and how many against Hamas or Saudi Arabia?
It’s a clearly biased organization that people alternatively take as gospel when it suits their needs or ignore when it doesn’t.
It’s obviously not a genocide. If it were, Gaza wouldn’t have a growing population. It’s really that fucking simple, you can’t redefine something to suit your bullshit narrative.
Israel isn’t trying to destroy a people or a nation. The millions of Arabs living peacefully in Israel are proof of that. They’re GOING to destroy a terrorist organization that’s holding a territory hostage though.
People calling out Israel’s crimes isn’t being antisemitic. Israelis forcing Palestinians from their homes, creating illegal settlements, running an apartheid state, having a large open air prison were half the population are children, and constantly killing Palestinian children is fucking abhorrent. Fuck Israel and fuck anyone that supports their crimes against humanity.
You’re here supporting terrorists who explicitly call for the extermination of the Jewish people. You’re holding Israel to a standard you refuse to hold others in the region too. They’re stuck in the sandbox with terrorists, they’re just playing by the same rules they’re being subjected to.
I’m not supporting the Israeli government, I’m supporting Israelis right to live in Peace. Prior to last week, I was one of that governments vocal critics. Now, like so many around the world, we can see the existential threat against the people of that country and I fully support the elimination of Hamas.
Once that’s done, and while it’s happening I can still champion the exiting of the West Bank and the promotion of a two state solution.
Hamas needs to be removed for Palestinians to have Peace. Their purpose as clearly laid out in their founding Charter is the destruction of the Jewish people, which means the destruction of the state of Israel which makes it pretty difficult to get a Peace deal in place.
so it’s fine for apartheid Israel to run an open air prison and support Hamas to weaken the PA’s push towards a 2-state solution for YEARS, but the second it backfires and there are Israeli deaths, then you need to take sides because suddenly the side with power actually experienced the reality of the ethnic conflict they have been pushing
You clearly don’t understand the history of the region. Israel has given back the Golan to the Lebanese, the Sinai to the Egyptians and Gaza to the Palestinians.
If you leave them alone, they’ll leave you alone. If you fuck with them, they’ve shown they will grind your bones into dust indistinguishable from the rubble of the buildings you’re hiding your missiles in.
That’s what history tells us. Hamas is about to get a history lesson.
so, again: Golan: under Israeli occupation right now, this very second, as i type this comment.
Sinai: Israel was forced to give this land back by an international coalition that threatened to send their own military to do it instead, this was the solution to the Suez Crisis and ironically one of the few things the USA and the Soviets actually did together, thwarting the French and British neocolonial aims for Africa.
Now aside from that, you seem to have a different definition of “being attacked”, you see I don’t view the side that strikes first as “being attacked” but rather “attacking”, I know this is a common myth spread by American conservative groups and think tanks like PraugerU, but it’s just factually incorrect, just like your assertion about Golan.
So you’re admitting to redefining terms based on how they benefit you. That you’re trying to position Israel being attacked by five different countries at the same time as if Israel’s the aggressor really puts a point on your anti-semitism. Israel didn’t throw the first punch there, or in the yk war. The record is clear on those fronts.
Israel gave backland in the Golan. They’ve maintained a position there for their defense which has proven to be necessary and valuable over the past 75 years. That doesn’t negate the fact that they gave backland in the Golan. Egypt lost the war. Israel held the land and gave it back. That proves they will give back land in order to move the peace process forward. Your blind Jew hate makes you unable to admit this reality.
You’re really working hard to spin facts in an anti-semitic way. You’ve admitted that you will redefine reality to suit your purposes and you’ve demonstrated that you have no issues doing it. Different definitions, alternative facts, it’s all just lies dude.
All we have here is you lying and spreading propaganda. At least we have you’re admitting to it though.
my god, Israel started the 6-day war, this is a fact, the fucking Israeli government even said it did!
and Israel returned Golan so hard Trump formerly had the US recognize it as Israeli territory, and just like the west bank the Israeli supreme court literally confirmed that it is under belligerent occupation.
You are literally repeating American Conservative propaganda not even Israel agrees with!
Good gracious, they’ve been attacked on multiple fronts on a half dozen occasions including the 6 day war. Nasser loaded up the border and rattled his Saber too damn hard giving up his plans. Israel defended itself from being attacked. That’s not starting a war, that’s responding to your neighbor starting one. That time they were attacked by what? 6 countries? They didn’t invade those countries, they pushed the front forward after being attacked. That you’d even attempt to claim they’re the aggressor in a 6:1 fight just proves your Jew hate is blinding.
Again, your misinformation is just spreading lies. They returned land in the Golan. That’s undeniable. They maintain land for security purposes, that’s a necessity as we’ve seen this week. Conflating that with the West Bank is about as intellectually dishonest as the rest of your attempted propaganda.
I’m repeating history, which is ironic because yet again Israel has been attacked and forced to defend itself.
When they turn Gaza back over to the Egyptians this time, hopefully they can do something positive with it this time. They’re going to have a blank canvas.
Every time you respond, you just shift your lie hahaha. What a joke. An Army was sitting on the border, the national leaders said war was imminent. Israel defended itself as it has the right to. Nasser was hardly looking for peace proactively mobilizing troops. That’s as laughable as claiming Hamas are freedom fighters rather than terrorists.
Gaza was Egyptian after the Arab Israeli war. It remained under their control for nearly twenty years. That you’re unaware of this fact I guess isn’t surprising given your lack of education on this topic. It’s just endless propaganda from the likes of you people, but you’ve been indoctrinated so it makes sense you don’t have a basis of facts to work from.
I’m supporting the two million Palestinian children that Israel has not only stolen the future of, but also kills and maims on a regular basis. I hold Israel to a higher standard than Hamas because Israel has the power and my tax dollars. Hamas is largely a problem of Israel’s own creation. I don’t just mean through their crimes they’ve created animus. They have directly funded Hamas and helped destroy their opposition in Gaza. Really, stop conflating Israel with the Jewish ethnicity and Judaism. It’s a really sorry attempt to hide behind the antisemitic claim to escape being called out for crimes against humanity.
Interesting how 2 million Arabs can live peacefully in Israel without fear of daily violence. The 2 million Arabs living in Gaza under Hamas’ control, though that’s another story, isn’t it.
If you are on the side of the Palestinian children, then you would be in favor of Israel taking complete control of the territory. That’s how those children will be safe. You don’t actually care about those kids though. If you did, you wouldn’t be so fucking ignorant about this.
I’m ignorant? Let Israel, the government who is on record calling all Palestinians animals and stating there are no innocents in Palestine, take over is best for those kids? You’re just a supporter of genocide, point blank.
Israel is actively bombing truck loads of women and children taking the so-called “safe route” out of Gaza City. Israelis are forcing Palestinians from their homes in Jerusalem, building illegal settlements, and launching terror attacks from said settlements to further encroach on the Palestinians.
You clearly don’t understand what the term genocide means. As noted, there are millions of Arabs living peacefully in Israel. Palestine has a growing population not a diminishing one. Terrorism is being suppressed. There is no genocide.
The corridor was struck by missiles… smaller than Israel uses. Unless you’re only reading Al Jazeera then you should be seeing the pictures showing the wreckage that bomb experts are saying is potentially Hamas caused. That’s exactly the sort of thing that they’re known to do in order to drum up PR. You fell for it. I agree. Genocide is ignorant and disgusting. Hamas’ founding charter calls for the genocide of Jews. Interesting how you ignore that. Only one side here is calling for the murder of the other one.
Genocide doesn’t have to be completed before you call it genocide. Also, only 24% of the Palestinians in Israeli territory have the right to vote. Additionally, only 64% of the people directly under the control of the Israeli government have the right to vote, the majority of those excluded being Palestinian. So don’t give me that shit about “living peacefully,” Israel is a goddamn apartheid state.
Israeli officials in the government and the IDF are calling for the genocide of the Palestinians, you’re the one ignoring this fact. And again, Israel actually had the ability to carry this out.
I swear, far right zealots like yourself are exhausting, regardless of which flavor you come in.
You’re redefining the term to suit your narrative. The population is growing, it’s growing faster than it’s regional neighbors.
I’m not ignoring the awful comments coming from the victims of terrorism. They’re going to destroy their enemies, and they’re going to treat them the same way they have been and would be treated. After last week, they’ve shown there’s no other option.
You’re holding them to different standards which among you left wing Anti Semites is standard practice. Of course it’s exhausting excusing terrorists like you’ve been doing. I can’t imagine being emotionally and intellectually broken enough to do what you do.
All you have is personal attacks, excuses for crimes against humanity by a apartheid religious ethnostate, and outright ignoring legitimate criticism. I’m not an antisemite or racist of any flavor, but you? You’re an absolute racist and the worst humanity has to offer. But your behavior is typical of fascists: playing the victim and declaring the enemy to be both overwhelmingly powerful and simultaneously weak as well as subhuman. You are absolutely disgusting.
There’s nothing personal about this, you’re a bigot. You’re holding two groups to different standards and the only difference is one of those groups is Jewish.
You’re a disgusting Anti Semite, and the worst part is that you’re so blind to it you think you’re actually doing good by spreading your bullshit.
I’m not saying all of these commenters are anti semites but many of them have been conditioned to basically think that whatever Hamas does is a legitimate way of responding to grievances (some certainly with merit) and whatever Israel does respond to that is genocide.
If Al qaeda was based in Canada what would the U.S. have done after 9/11? Let them just continue to operate?
I have asked several posters on here to give me some better options for Israel than to destroy Hamas. So far not a single one has obliged.
They can’t engage because then they’ll need to admit their hypocrisy and bias.
Israel’s being held to a standard different than everyone else in the region. They understand better than most western nations what it’s like to live in that sandbox. They’re playing by the same rules as their neighbors and after last week the people blaming them don’t have a leg to stand on…
Whether or not it’s true if the population is increasing in spite of all of these things isn’t relevant. What’s relevant is that Israel is attempting several of them (only need 1 for it to be genocide), and they have been for several decades.
False dichotomy. There are more options than “do nothing” and “force the evacuation of an entire populated area before bombing the entire region to the stone age”. It doesn’t take a political genius to see that.
Actually, I believe in a one-state solution where it’s renamed back to Palestine (you know, to return the culture Israel tried to erase) with a single government of both Palestinians and Jews where everyone has full rights and gets to vote. All the former Israelis can stay. Those who have committed war crimes (weather from Israel’s side or otherwise) would be tried.
Jewish people should not have to be kicked out of their homes like they did to the Palestinians. “Never again” applies to everyone. They should be allowed to stay, but not settlers who have physically stolen homes from Palestinians in the past few years (and injured or killed many of them), those can fuck off to jail.
What you are calling for is a fantasy. The second Israelis did that they would be wiped out.
I live in reality - and we all need to - if we want this situation to finally come to a peaceful conclusion.
By the way I agree with you regarding the settlements. They are a provocation and moderate Israelis need to stop them and hopefully will once Netanyahu and his rightwing cronies are thrown out of office.
The onus is not on this random internet commenter to produce an alternative. Can you really not think of one thing Israel could do that doesn’t involve glassing what’s left of a country?
Let’s see what they propose. Or you for that matter?
If Al qaeda was based in Canada and constantly attacking New York what would the U.S. have done post 9/11? Just leave them alone?
The truth is there no good option here. Elimination of Hamas is the only option and it will be bloody for both sides, partially due to Hamas use of Palestinian citizens as human shields. Hopefully after Hamas is removed from power Palestinians can elect leaders who don’t call for the complete annihilation of Israel and Israelis can elect moderates who are open to negotiations as well.
Unless you are among those who think Israel should be dissolved in which case you are not actually interested in a peaceful solution for all sides.
Even if “eliminate Hamas” is the response, forcing the entire population out and bombing the whole fucking place is not the only way.
Doubly so, because if you kill and/or displace hundreds of thousands of civilians, how many of those do you think will remain civilians, and how many will subsequently be bolstering the numbers of Hamas?
Seems like absolutely no one has a problem with that. It’s just when Israel bombs hospitals and shit and then says Hamas was doing whatever there, that’s where people are drawing the line.
More like launch missles into civilian areas intentionally. You’re really understating the situation.
Also by the way your solution is to just let Hamas continue intentionally attacking civilian targets? What country on the planet would allow their neighbor to do that?
Also by the way your solution is to just let Hamas continue intentionally attacking civilian targets?
Hmmm… and yet nowhere did I say that. I’m seriously asking…
If you were in the IDF, Hamas fired from inside a hospital full of children, do you shoot at the hospital knowing that at least a few children will be hit?
Do you shoot at the hospital and say these kids were killed by your enemy even though it was your own bullet that hit them?
Or do you say, “oh shit yeah these kids are just like my own, I can’t shoot this hospital, there needs to be another way around this that I could come up with as a highly trained combatant”
Because Israel goes with the first one almost always.
You still didn’t answer my question. What is the other option here for Israel? Hamas backed them into a corner by launching missles from hospitals, schools, mosques, etc.
Hamas wants Palestinians to be killed more than anyone else in this situation. They’re basically daring Israel to attack civilian areas. They are trying to elicit a reaction exactly like the one you are exhibiting. Meanwhile Iran is laughing as they use Palestinians as cannon fodder in order to get people pissed at Israel and the west.
What other option is there for Israel other than just surrendering to Hamas?
You clearly don’t want to be gentle. What is the solution here? If Israel doesn’t defend itself than its residents will continue to be the subject of attacks by Hamas. What other option is there?
What country do you live in that would tolerate constant rocket attacks as well as now terrorist raids from their neighboring territory?
Defend itself against what? It, the UK, and the US started it and refused to relent. Yeah I expect Israel to give the illegal settlements back entirely. They intentionally encouraged too many people to move in in order to justify illegal expansion. So yeah send them back, pay the immigrants for Israel’s fraud and con, and give the Palestinian’s their land back.
You steal someone’s car, and you make it right by giving it back and covering any damages. Just because Israel stole a really big “car” doesn’t change how right and wrong works. You give it back and apologize whether you’re a 3 year old or Netanyahu.
Well they could start doing the thing that would’ve prevented the attack in the first place, treat Palestinians like human beings. The main reason Hamas is in power is because Israel treats Palestinians like subhumans. Hamas wouldn’t be a thing if Israel and Palestine made peace and found a way to co-exist.
Is this some fucking joke to you? You think this is a mother fucking Video game?
This is war. It’s not supposed to be fair. It’s no more fair than when America steam rolled Iraq or Afghanistan. No more fair than when the Hamas terrorists with guns pulled those kids out of bed and shot them last week.
Hamas are terrorists. They need to be destroyed, that’s why the US pulled its forces into the region. If you think that’s for anything other reason than to ensure this threat is eliminated, you’re fucking crazy.
War sucks. Hamas is going to be eliminated. The sooner they stop with the human shields, the better for the people of Gaza.
Let me quote some portions of the Hamas Covenant to you, and you tell me if you can find anything this insane in Israeli founding documents. Like it or not, Hamas has clearly stated its opposition to peace and its genocidal intent.
Intent is the difference.
Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will abolish it, just as it abolished others before it
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.
There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.
[The Jews] were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there.
You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.
[The Zionist invasion] relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions. They aim at undermining societies, destroying values, corrupting consciences, deteriorating character and annihilating Islam. It is behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds so as to facilitate its control and expansion.
Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Muslim people. “May the cowards never sleep.”
It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region, because the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror.
And you are assuming I support Hamas. Could you please explain what led you to believe that? Because I don’t.
I posted that image to show how Israel doesn’t criticize itself when it commits genocide or ethnic cleansing but is quick to jump into conclusions and condemn their own enemy even though they are committing the same act.
I’m not assuming anything, I’m explaining that intent matters when considering whether genocide is happening. Hamas clearly has intent, Israel on the other hand? I’m willing to be convinced of course; certainly some officials have made genocidal statements, but I’m not aware of the official policy or stated aims of Israel being specifically genocidal the way Hamas is. Apartheid? Absolutely, and that’s bad enough.
Israel has attempted peace multiple times; I respect Arafat & the PLO for compromising and it’s a shame what happened with that process. Hamas considers these efforts a “contradiction to its principles” and a “waste of time”.
I agree. But to be honest your comment came out as sarcastic. Hamas don’t take issue in being clear about their own agendas. Israel does everything to hide it. You don’t need to find words like these in internal Israeli government documents. Their actions are enough. Nakba was ethnic cleansing. Today in Gaza is ethnic cleansing. Genocide is finally being used in the media as a word to describe the situation with accuracy.
You may be right about Netanyahu & Likud, anyway, and I’m certainly not saying the Palestinians don’t have every right to resist. I expect Israel’s stated aim, to destroy Hamas, is an honest one. I expect Gaza will be returned to the Palestinians when that goal is achieved, because again, I don’t see Israel as intentionally genocidal. I can’t say I’m not concerned that my expectations won’t be met, though.
What I said isn’t new or controversial. Common Dreams is quite literally a propaganda website. They don’t cover things fairly, they intentionally only portray a single side of an issue, they have an agenda to push. This is literally all on their website. Common Dreams is in the same tier as the Daily Wire or The Blaze. Trying to pass any of these as legitimate news source is stupid, they’re not.
I wasn’t defending Common Dreams. Just pointing out, in this case, it seems that they’re backing their claims up with links to actual trustworthy sources.
Not commenting on the actual crisis going on but who cares what the American Jews think? They aren’t in Israel and have never lived a day over there. It’s almost like American Irish giving their opinion of Brexit. Yes we know what is going on is wrong, but the audience voicing their opinion barely has more relevance than the average person. It must be exhausting on boths sides to have foreigners voice their opinions on what is an actual war zone right now.
Not commenting on the actual protest going on but who cares what the random Fedi thinks? They aren’t in the protest and have never participated a minute over there.
This is a social forum. It’s made for comments? You don’t have to care what I think and I’m fine with being wrong, but I hope you aren’t on Lemmy just for an echo chamber.
Wow, so, a public space is appropriate for public comment, like, perhaps a protest is a legitimate expression of opinion?
betz24, I’m about to exercise my freedom of expression on a social forum made for comments, but, your comment (not you, I don’t know you. Big distinction) is very stupid. With high emphasis on both “very” and “stupid”. It also displays an absolute lack of self-awareness which I think would be personally enriching for you to start practicing.
Dusty thanks for the feedback. Clearly a lot of people are upset at the comment I made. As a person with several friends in Israel, I felt this article wasnt doing the people justice.
When a common refrain of pro-Israel propaganda is "All criticism is antisemitism", you bet your fucking ass that the opinion of American Jews is important.
Literally nobody thinks except actual antisemites who want to mask their hatred of Jews by hiding behind “akchually it’s anti-zionism”. I saw a guy on Instagram defend muslims in Europe literally fucking drawing stars on the houses of Jews as “anti-zionism”. Like no, that’s just straight up nazi shit.
You have fun with those incidents of antisemitism? I don't know where I implied that antisemitism didn't exist, or how that's in any way a rebuttal to the assertion I made, but go off, I guess.
So you saw one dumbass Nazi on the internet, and now you think that’s how anyone who is “anti-zionist” believes? Fuck off with that.
Not only is it completely logically unsound, it’s insulting to people who are capable of understanding nuance.
But no, you? You know this already don’t you? You’re not actually this dumb. Maybe you were even briefed about this exact conversation tree by a superior officer. But I’m not even sure you deserve that benefit of the doubt.
People see through this shit now. It’s not working anymore as a smoke screen for the disgusting war crimes and atrocities committed on the Palestinian people that you aren’t allowed to admit have been happening for 60+ years.
There’s no nuance to antisemitism. You either are or aren’t. The thing is that a lot of antisemites understand that their views, at least in the West aren’t welcomed, and so they hide behind alternatives to push their hatred.
This is a very small sample of antisemitic instances. These aren’t instance of criticizing Israel or Zionism as ideology or Netenyahu or even Judaism as a religion. This is literally straight anti-Jewish hatred.
Maybe, just maybe, the pro-Palestinian/anti-Israeli crowd DOES have actual antisemies who just found another convenient excuse to spread their hate. How can you possibly and deny this is happening when the evidence is right there? You speak of nuance, but fail to see it when it’s in front you.
But I’m sure you know there a lot of groups and individuals who are exploiting the conflict to push their vile views against Jews, you just don’t care.
Nobody cares that you can find racist pieces of shit all over the internet. We all know about these people already. The problem comes when any criticism of the Israeli GOVERNMENT, no matter how valid, is responded to with claims of anti-semitism.
Comparing the Jewish diaspora to the American Irish isn’t even apples and oranges, it’s apples and ice cream trucks. They’re not even in the same category.
People with Jewish ancestry are born with a “birthright” to become a citizen of Israel (including the option for dual citizenship, of course). It’s just a completely different and unique situation.
I might have a “birthright” to become a citizen of Israel, but that doesn’t mean that I, as an American Jew, have a strong connection to Israel. It definitely doesn’t mean that I have influence over what Israel does or am somehow responsible for Israel’s actions.
I’ve recently seen people celebrating attacks on a Jewish temple and bakery in America because “they are a symbol of Zionist aggression.” The person was justifying anti-semitic attacks on American Jews because “Israel did X.” I expect this antisemitism from the right, but this was coming from someone on the left. As an American Jew, it’s scary to suddenly face antisemitism for something I have no influence over from both sides of the aisle.
I’ve recently seen people celebrating attacks on a Jewish temple and bakery in America because “they are a symbol of Zionist aggression.
Got a link? Because a lot of those videos have been proven to be disinformation, and videos from years ago completely unrelated to the conflict. One of them was people celebrating after a soccer game.
It was posted by Adam Schiff on Threads. This is one of the replies (with the name crossed out because I don’t want it to seem like I’m doxxing the user):
Since Israel has already killed at least twice the number of Palestine civilians than the number of Israeli citizen that were killed by Hamas, this is absolutely true.
I think it’s very confused and polarized. Neither side is even remotely in the right at this point, and those who suffer have almost no agency. The only third rail here is the Israeli people. They can make the madness stop.
I find it so crazy that people can pick sides in this conflict. I don’t know if there’s a nation, military or people in the middle east that doesn’t have the blood of thousands of innocent civilians on their hands. With how brutal every single conflict is its no wonder that the survivors feel the need to pick up arms and continue the cycle of pain and suffering
The civilians on both sides aren’t in the right? I misunderstand you, and am being genuine here. Morality/ethics of a conflict can’t just be measured and analyzed by the actions and consequences of the combatants. The people caught in the middle, whether Palestinian or Jewish are the real losers in this. War has no real victor…
They’re saying the powers at play, the big boys, on both sides are fucked. The people in the middle, the civilians on either side, have no real say in what’s going on, they just get slaughtered.
Every single time this type of shit plays out the same way. Outrage at whichever Palestinian group did whatever. Outrage at Israel’s response. Then people taking what they think are reasonable sides in a religious war, then finally things calm back down to the fucked up status quo. I see no reason this will be any different.
People have this bright idea that the horrible status quo will somehow change by diplomatic means. It never will when the whole conflict is based on the ideology which sole goal is the genocide of the Jews.
Bro it almost changed three times in the past thirty years (1995, 2008 and 2012). Guess who ruined all three: Yes, Netnyahu. The conflict isn't as unsolvable as you think; it just needs a sane government not headed by a far-right genocidal maniac.
It will never end as long as the Israeli government keeps treating the Palestinians as subhuman. That’s what creates more terrorists every day. Hamas is a response to Israel’s continued occupation and oppression. The Nakba has been going on for over 50 years and people still out here acting like Palestine started all this.
I think there are four factors at play here. They’re mixed together in an extremely messy fashion and overlap quite a bit, but they are:
The people on both sides fear for their safety. The Palestinians fear the Israeli government and military taking action against them. The Israeli people fear rocket attacks and raids like the one that just happened. When a populace lives in fear, it leads to -
Extremist groups are in charge. You have Hamas on one side whose stated goal is to kill all Jews. (Not just in Israel, but across the world.) You have the right wing Israeli government on the other side who push for horrible actions against the Palestinians in the name of “safety.”
Foreign interference. Iran on one side is arming/helping Hamas. On the other side, evangelical Christians help the settlers and push the Israeli government because they think Jesus will come back if Israel suffers a big enough attack. (Peace would prevent that attack and stop Jesus from returning.)
A long and bloody history. Both sides remember when they were killed by the other side. Both sides refuse to leave the past in the past and intend on making the other side pay. The problem here is that the cycle of violence never breaks. If you always have to attack because “they did X to us” then they will feel like they always need to attack because you did Y to them. It goes around and around and never changes no matter how much everyone suffers.
How do you untangle this mess? If I knew that, I’d have the Nobel Peace Prize. I wish I did know. I’d set the peace prize aside in a second, tell the world what to do, and stop it all. Unfortunately, I’m no diplomat. (Some of the best diplomats have failed in this arena.) I can see what’s going on, but I have no clue how to stop it.
The best I can think of is that perhaps UN security forces need to move in. Not to attack one side or another, but to keep both sides away from each other. Sort of like the national version of putting two kids who were fighting in time out until things cool down. But again, I’m no diplomat so for all I know that would make things worse.
UN created this quagmire so let them sort it. Reset borders to the original plan, Jerusalem becomes its own city state, administered by the UN. It will anger everyone but let the UN take responsibility and clean up the mess they made (sort of).
That’s definitely a start. Unfortunately, just swapping Netenyahu out with someone less extreme wouldn’t get Hamas to stop their attacks. It wouldn’t cause the people on both sides to feel safe enough to trust in a peace process and to forgive past actions.
There are a lot of factors in play and the solution to this, if there is one, is going to be very complicated and difficult to achieve. It will be worth it, but it won’t be easy.
That’s definitely a start. Unfortunately, just swapping Netenyahu out with someone less extreme wouldn’t get Hamas to stop their attacks.
I mean Hamas already agreed to stop their attacks in ceasefires before (see: 2008 and 2012 ceasefires). It was then Netenyahu who didn't lift the blockade, therefore not holding Israel's end of the agreements. It was also Netenyahu who stopped the peace process in 1995 because he's Netenyahu.
This is what I meant by just needs someone who isn't Netenyahu. Hamas has proven that they're willing to engage in dialogue, despite what's written in their charter. It's Netenyahu who doesn't want that, so he's basically acting as a barrier between both sides and peace.
You are defending a group who as part of their founding charter calls for the extermination of all Jews on earth not just in Israel. You are at best wildly ignorant on this subject if not dishonest.
You would also need someone on the Palestinian side that the Israelis would trust to keep their word and not attack. That trust just isn’t there and will be difficult to rebuild.
I’m not completely disagreeing with you. The illegal settlements need to go. I’d like to see any illegal settlements responded to by having a special group of Israeli police, working with Palestinian authorities and not just moving in on their own, arresting the settlers instead of the military moving in to protect them.
There’s also the outside influence to consider. Evangelical Christians love the settlers. They help them and any politicians who would protect them. They’d work against a politician who promised to arrest them.
There are a lot of factors in play and the solution won’t be an easy one.
My bad for my tone. I was tired and didn’t noticed how sassy I came off.
I don’t think my suggestion will ever happen, but I think it’s what needs to happen.
I don’t think Palestinians would trust IDF soldiers to be escorts to be honest, but I suppose white police/soldiers played a role in integration in the US.
As far as implementing solutions, I think the Palestinians should decide that for themselves. I don’t think the international community will allow that for MANY reasons, Christians being just one. And until we can stop the ethnic cleansing policy from its current implementation, there is no room to even try anything.
But yes, the evangelical Christian relationship with Israel is VERY different than the relationship of Israel to Jews. I understand the propaganda I see in the Jewish community, and I understand how it’s harder to see this issue clearly when you’re more likely to have family members, friends, and memories made in a region.
Christian fantasize about Israel being theirs or seeing themselves as the true Israel already, and that it’s a metaphor for them and not Jews.
that’s not even getting into how all the neighboring countries feel and how all their allies and enemies feel. It’s a lot.
Not to simplify your points and overall message because I really appreciate your words and thoughts, but game theory would do a lot to explain point 4 pretty tidily. The fucked up thing about that, though is that the hate and division is so entrenched that the fact that these people have to deal with one another all the time, has no effect in how they treat each other.
Then again, this gets into some anthropological territory of how culture begats culture, and a culture of violence can never be anything else (me adlibbing here on theoretical anthro), but I digress… The people that perpetrate the attacks are so far removed from the rank and file and every day experiences, and have so much to gain from continuing it, that why on Earth would they stop? To rational and reasonable people, it seems absurd, but so does how the Fossil Fuel industry persists in plunging us into extinction, so it all bears out, if you ask me.
I completely agree. Hamas’ leadership isn’t based in Gaza. Attacks on Gaza don’t affect them because they’re living in luxury (in Qatar IIRC). Meanwhile, they’ve cancelled all elections so the Palestinians can’t just choose a new government.
And this applies to the outside influence as well. Iranians and evangelical Christians don’t need to live with the chaos they help to thrive. They get to sit back, thousands of miles away, safe from any consequences. Since they don’t suffer any consequences, why would they stop? And if they don’t stop, it makes it that much harder to achieve peace.
They are not. Israel is an apartheid state. Palestinians are legally deprived of human rights and restricted to ghettos. Hamas is merely an extremist group that offers Palestinians something, even if its something they cannot deliver on and have no legitimate means of achieving. Palestinians have been massacred by Israel since its inception. Israelis have occasionally died in comparatively small numbers from Hamas attacks. Hamas is not Palestine though. And hamas has no legal power within the Israeli state. The Israeli state is entirely responsible for the current state of affairs and for the ongoing violence.
Palestinians have no state. They have no home. They are kept in ghettos. They are currently facing one of the largest humanitarian crises of the 21st century. The Israeli state could stop it all tomorrow. They could stop it all right now. Unconditionally grant equal citizenship to all Palestinians, return them their homes, give them 50% representation in the Israeli government, and formally condemn the racism and genocidal rhetoric of the Netanyahu administration and the many war crimes committed both by him and the IDF and the Israeli police force.
Its entirely up to Israel. Palestinians can do none of these things. Their only available recourse is extremism.
I agree with one caveat: the Palestinians can help themselves the same way India, South Africa, and other colonial peoples have. Non-violent resistance gets really good results in democracies. It’s not easy, but it’s less dangerous than attacking a modern military.
The hardest step is getting rid of Hamas, which is more like a mafia than a government. They’re more interested in keeping their power and position with help from Iran. In South Africa, Nelson Mandela was a violent terrorist before he turned to 100% non-violence.
Here’s an interesting article that no one will read:
Doesn’t help when most of the “offers” they get are basically, “you give up at least half of your land (including most of the Mediterranean Coast) and in return, we’ll stop genociding you.”
I can only think to part of a response Orwell had for pacifists:
I am not interested in pacifism as a ‘moral phenomenon’. If Mr Savage and others imagine that one can somehow ‘overcome’ the German army by lying on one’s back, let them go on imagining it, but let them also wonder occasionally whether this is not an illusion due to security, too much money and a simple ignorance of the way in which things actually happen. As an ex-Indian civil servant, it always makes me shout with laughter to hear, for instance, Gandhi named as an example of the success of non-violence. As long as twenty years ago it was cynically admitted in Anglo-Indian circles that Gandhi was very useful to the British government. So he will be to the Japanese if they get there. Despotic governments can stand ‘moral force’ till the cows come home; what they fear is physical force.
Despotic governments can stand ‘moral force’ till the cows come home; what they fear is physical force.
That’s why I said democracies are vulnerable to non-violent resistance.
Democracies, like Israel, are the opposite of authoritarian governments. Developed democracies can withstand all the force you send at them because they rule with the consent of the governed and have much larger resources at their disposal.
They are more vulnerable to soft power. Hamas already has broadcast abilities. They should literally get rid of most weapons, and start broadcasting 24/7 about the hardships of living in the West Bank and Gaza. They have an unlimited amount of ammo because Israel genuinely makes people’s lives terrible.
just because a place calls its self or even is a democracy doesn’t mean it can’t be despotic.
there is no inherent “democracy is not despotic” we have seen plenty of despotic democratic governments, almost all of them only toppled due to outside influence.
and a side point Democracies aren’t more resistant to force, they are just a little less likely to collapse due to a general trust in the standing government, nothing to do with resources.
I agree with one caveat: the Palestinians can help themselves the same way India, South Africa, and other colonial peoples have. Non-violent resistance gets really good results in democracies.
They tried. They tried a lot (well the first intifada also had a violent element but yk). The result was the Oslo accords, which were almost there until the then-PM was assassinated and Netenyahu who succeeded him just called the whole thing off. Since you mentioned India, the situation in Palestine is more like the troubles in Northern Ireland. You need people who actually care about human rights (many Israelis do, but enough don't that Netenyahu was/has been PM for a total of 16+ years).
The hardest step is getting rid of Hamas, which is more like a mafia than a government.
Hamas aren't actually 100% opposed to peace. They've already made three good faith efforts (2008 ceasefire, 2012 ceasefire, 2012-2013 united government), but in all three Israel actively rejected peace.
Edit: I know it's weird that a terrorist organization is being the (slightly) reasonable side here, but yeah the fact that the conflict went on for so long is on Israel's far-right party and Netenyahu specifically for rejecting peace time and time again. As soon as peace comes Hamas will either mellow out into an Islamist government or die off.
The result was the Oslo accords, which were almost there until the then-PM was assassinated and Netenyahu who succeeded him just called the whole thing off.
The reason why israeli people became more conservative during that time was due to Hamas executing several terrorist strikes during the Oslo Accords. Not surprisingly, the extremists on all sides hate peace – prime minister Rabin was murdered by a Jewish extremist.
You are so delusional about this situation that you think somehow a one state solution could work at this point. A two state solution is the only answer but unfortunately the leadership on both sides right now would never let that happen and the leadership on one side in particular (Hamas) is set on full extermination of the other party.
They colonize but everyone fights back. That’s precisely my point. It’s normal and natural to fight back against that. It’s delusional to think it’s not.
Hamas is an extremist group, they are only considered a reasonable thing to support because Palestinians do not have human rights and are confined to ghettos. One party in this situation is actively genociding the other, and quite understandably Palestinians are more inclined to listen to extremists than the Israeli state genociding them. Israel has actively sabotaged every single attempt at negotiations since the mid 90s. Netanyahu can be thanked for that. Him and the racists who support him.
Hamas is nothing if Palestinians had rights. Palestinians are just people, they are not an army they are not a militia. They deserve human rights. Israel could do that today. They deserve their homes back. Israel could do that today. Hamas has nothing to do with it. There’s never an excuse to deprive a race of people their rights and freedoms. Genocide is never acceptable. Apartheid is never acceptable.
The Palestinians in Gaza, at this point, can’t choose to vote Hamas out of office if they wanted to. Hamas won with a plurality (not a majority) in 2006 and has cancelled all future elections. They’ve used aid meant to support the Palestinian people to make rockets to attack Israel. There’s no trust in the Israeli side that Hamas would stick to their word. Netenyahu needs to go, but so does Hamas.
Hamas cannot change the apartheid state. They have tried repeatedly since the mid 90s and every time America and Israel have sabotaged negotiations and refused to give Palestinians equal rights.
Hamas was elected once and there have been no elections since. They also have no actual political power in Israel so it doesn’t really make a difference who is elected. Netanyahu wants to commit genocide, he has no interest in changing anything.
I never said Israeli citizens were the Israeli state. The Israeli state is in fact a state. That state has legal power over all Palestinians. That state is denying Palestinians human rights. That state is orchestrating an attempt at genocide.
Do you not understand how genocide works? They literally cut off all food water and electricity to the entire gaza ghetto like 3 days ago. They are about to launch the largest land invasion in the history of the state of Israel. They called Palestinians “human animals” on international TV. Theyve murdered men women and children indiscriminately in both gaza and the west bank. They’ve been emboldening racist Israeli citizens to launch attacks of their own on Palestinian citizens in the west bank.
If Al qaeda was based in Canada and they attacked the U.S. should the U.S. continue providing water and electricity to them? What other country bites the hand that feeds and then expects the status quo to remain. Think about that for a minute.
Why didn’t Hamas, instead of building rockets, build a new power plant and water treatment facilities with the millions of not billions of aid that the international community has given in aid to Gaza?
You’re missing the part where Israel’s reaction to an attack (often on the IDF) ends up with casualties at least one or two orders of magnitude higher. Nearly all civilians who are already living an oppressed life and being illegally displaced from their homes and their land.
One has unquestionable support by the most powerful military that has ever existed.
It has never been tit-for-tat at any point during this conflict. Unless you’re going back to the fucking crusades or something.
Since ww2, no. The Palestinians aren’t even close to being capable of going tit-for-tat against the US Military Industrial Complex (aka Israel’s military).
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