They got a pass for taking pot shots at Israel, because that’s an internal regional conflict. Shooting at civilian trade ships in one of the most important shipping lanes on the planet is a completely different thing. We’re not watching gas prices skyrocket, a resurgent Russia, a global economic downturn, etc. just because some religious fanatics are throwing a temper tantrum.
The Houthis were warned repeatedly to cut that shit out, and they didn’t listen. These are the consequences.
Ansar Allah have said explicitly that they are attempting to enforce a Naval blockade in the Red Sea against Israel. They have also stated that they believe under international law they are obligated to do whatever they can to prevent genocide.
I don’t see any reason why they can’t be negotiated with. Calling them “religious fanatics” that are “throwing a temper tantrum” is just a silly way to dismiss non violent solutions to the conflict.
Biden’s decision to threaten and subsequently bomb them is just plain arrogant belligerence. The US backed campaign to bomb and starve out the Houthis didn’t work previously so why does Biden think it’ll work now?
The Houthis are the ones attacking civilians and American warships alike. The international community tried to get them to stop for months before resorting to retaliation.
A blockade is an act of War. As is firing upon military and civilian ships. Whine about almost certain consequences all you like, they've no one to blame but themselves.
Yes a blockade is an act of war. Ansar Allah declared war on Israel. What’s your point? The US is still solely responsible when it decides to bomb a country instead of negotiating.
And they got War in return as they were repeatedly warned would happen. What's your point? And the US has bombed crap tons of people into the stone age for being threats to its monied interests. Why would anyone be stupid enough to think a different outcome would occur? Why would anyone be stupid enough to think after all the people the US has had killed, killing these really really self important fools would be a bridge to far?
Do you really think Ansar Allah thought the US wouldn’t retaliate militarily? Of course they did. The US has been complicit in committing war crimes against Yemen for the better part of the last decade. Frankly that’s probably a significant reason why they felt the need to do whatever they could to stop the US backed genocide in Gaza. Maybe just maybe bombing them isn’t the answer here.
The US never negotiated, and they probably wouldn’t listen considering we tried to genocide them by blockade since 2015 until Saudi Arabia decided they wanted to keep their oil refineries.
The only silly person here is the one that expects a people we tried, and failed, to genocide would be afraid of the people that did it.
So how does bombing them change any of that? Their immediate demands are that Israel ends their genocidal campaign against Palestinians in Gaza. If Israel complies and the Houthis continue their attacks the world is still better off so why not try that before resorting to violence?
It’s a simple case of “they started it”. The Houthis are the ones who resorted to violence, against innocent civilians who had nothing to do with the conflict in any way.
Just because we have so far successfully shot down their missiles doesn’t change the intent behind the attacks, to kill civilians and cripple international shipping.
You don’t negotiate with a madman shooting wildly into a crowd, you take him down. And they did so in the most humane way they could, targeting only missile sites, basically they are trying to take the gun away from a violent idiot.
Which civilians? The retaliatory strike targeted military targets only, and was intentionally telegraphed to destroy weapons with minimal loss of life.
If you’re talking about previous conflicts in Yemen, those are completely irrelevant to the recent attacks on commercial shipping.
Firstly, the Houthi flag includes the words, “Death to America.” These are not rational actors. They are fanatic jihadis and all attempts to reason with them have failed. Acting like the Houthis are the same as a regular nation state is borderline intellectually dishonest.
If they have a problem with Israel, keep firing at Israel. If they want a problem with the rest of the world, keep firing at our CIVILIAN ships. Firing at those ships is an act of war, and it was going to provoke a response.
Biden waited a very long time to act, which emboldened Iran to take an oil tanker. That move virtually guaranteed a response, and it’s good that the response was limited to Yemen. Biden is playing the cards he’s been dealt, and he’s playing them reasonably.
Also, it should be mentioned that the Houthis themselves said the casualties were ~5 dead and 6 wounded. Warming was given far in advance so they could evacuate and minimize casualties. If Biden had wanted to play dirtier, he could have. A deliberate decision was made to minimize civilian casualties. If the positions were reversed, the Houthis would nuke Tel Aviv, DC, and every other major city in both the US and Israel.
You do realize that the US supported a campaign of bombing and a blockade against Yemen for the better part of the past decade? It’s not irrational of them to hate the US. They certainly aren’t more or less religious fanatics than Israel or the Christian Zionists in the US that support Israel.
I explained why the Houthis have reason to hate the US after their hate was cited as a reason why they must be irrational. That’s not a pivot. It’s a very direct response. You should work on your reading comprehension.
Surely that would only make sense if America had a history of funding coups, arming terrorists, overthrowing governments and indiscriminately bombing the region right?
Fortunately that’s not the case so the Houthis are clearly just insane. That is a much easier explanation.
20 years of bombing as the title of this thread implies is probably the cause they are angry with america. Ironically by taking position against israel genocide they are doing more than the west at preventing fanaticism as it has been said over and over that the indiscriminate bombing of gaza can only breed more terrorists. Whoever leads them is probably a scummy individual but just as much as Biden or the other 3 presidents that bombed them.
Sovereignty carries with it responsibilities, these include exerting conrol over territory claimed, and maintaining territorial integrity. If some external or internal force operates with impunity in your territory, you lose sovereignty over that territory. It doesnt nessecarily mean they gain sovereignty though, although that can be one posdible outcome.
It should be a no-brainer to support the continuation of cheap and efficient global trade regardless of your politics. Houthis should have kept their missiles on land if they didn’t want the US navy showing up
At the end of this next year, there will be more Palestinians on this planet than there were last year. That’s the reality of the situation. We’re about to have the world’s first genocide where the population grew… The people of Gaza are a large portion of Palestinians, they have genocidal leadership who are clearly intent on attacking their neighbors until they’re all dead. They’ve said so recently, yet it’s not really working out for them it appears.
Gazans should join their brothers in Jordan, they’ll be better off under a kingdom that doesn’t want them than they are in the democratic society they’ve built for themselves. They don’t really seem capable of self government given they are overwhelmingly in support of their current ‘leaders’ who openly say they are not responsible for the well being of the citizens.
All natives resist colonialism, the only genocidal maniacs are the Zionist invaders. You are suggesting removing Palestinians to Jordan instead of removing the illegal settlements in the West Bank.
So, a genocide doesn’t count unless it’s complete, and if the Palestinians in Gaza knew what was good for them they’d self-ethnic-cleanse?
they have genocidal leadership who are clearly intent on attacking their neighbors until they’re all dead.
What you’re implying is that Hamas is bringing down genocide on their own people via the IDF. Since Hamas is in control of, and responsible for the IDF, why don’t they use it to attack Israel? Are they stupid?
How many of the attacked cargo ships were transporting weapons? And what, cargo ships transporting Russian oil are just fair game for NATO to blow up now because they’re funding genocide?
yes, but the Russians have nukes so actually no. If you have nukes you basically get to do what you want and the other great powers don’t get to attack you. If you don’t have nukes you don’t get that privilege
Hundreds to thousands of nukes, mostly yes. one to tens of, not so much. People don’t want nukes to be used, but having a supply of 20 nukes or so would not get the world to let you do whatever you wanted.
And at a certain point, even the hundreds to thousands may still lead to war, if pressing too hard.
Oh people tried to do something about the Houthis. In fact, they starved Yemeni children to death to hurt the Houthis. Turns out that only made them more popular.
The Houthis do not care about Palestine. They are incited by Iran and Russia to disrupt global trade, but are saying they’re defending Palestine just for PR points.
Yeah sure bro. It’s all a giant PR stunt. In fact the Houthis are the ones orchestrating israel to commit genocide on the Palestinians. Most of those kids beneath the rubble are just photoshopped in there. They have Michael Bay on the special effects!
Actions speak louder than words. While you pay lip service to Palestine the Houthis actually undertake action.
“Yemen has been targeted by U.S. military action and bombings over the last four American presidencies — of George W. Bush, Barack Obama, Donald Trump, now Joe Biden.”
Red and blue are the same party, stop voting for them.
This thread is about a blue president doing exactly what the 3 presidents before him have done and two of them were red. How exactly is keeping vote for either red or blue going to change anything? If you want anything to change at all the best option to do it within the system is to vote for a third party or to not vote at all, the more votes red and blue lose the more they will have to adapt and change their policies. Voting for fascists or genocide supporters who are pushing the window right by increasing military spending and enriching the rich is not pushing the window anywhere toward justice.
Because the American political system is a joke and there is more chance of an American President making a positive impact in the middle East than there is of one being unaffiliated with one of the two major parties.
So change who comprises the parties, the Republicans already did it to theirs and have successfully moved the Overton Window further right.
I think you’re probably right. But he didn’t win, Biden did and the libs told us that he’d be good and we had to “save the democracy” etc. Now you’re standing here still spewing bullshit even though you’ve been proven wrong by history.
I don’t understand this bizarre false dichotomy you have going on, it’s not like biden’s voters are thrilled about him. But if they had voted for anyone else, or not voted, the chronically online keyboard warriors would be standing here blaming them for trump getting elected- and he probably would be 100x worse for Palestine, not to even mention ukraine.
It’s kinda victim blamey, everyone is being held hostage by the same system here, and all you(and a lot of Lemmygrad and .ml seem to do) are bitch and moan about Biden without every having any semblance of an actual solution.
I don’t know, that sounds like hard, thankless work that will take years of consistent effort, dealing with countless setbacks and losses but not giving up, before finally achieving our goals of making real and meaningful change. What if instead if that I just don’t buy Starbucks, will that work?
Both red and blue wants people in the middle east dead. Instead of picking a group of dead people over another what about voting for someone that isn’t a fucking murderer?
I feel bad for American voters. The last time military action was taken without congressional approval it led to a 20 year war resulting in a million dead Iraqis and the Taliban government back in power in Afghanistan (among other completely preventable atrocities, like this).
The hypnotism of American exceptionalism is requiring an almost lethal dose of ignorance to continue to work.
Edit: Wrong. Congress approved military action against Afghanistan and Iraq. They were lied to by the Bush administration but they did in fact approve both.
Not edgy at all, I’m a very simple man. I see people mocking our way of life and siding with those who threaten us. I like to see them get a nice helping of freedom.
Who is arguing that Israel fighting back is wrong? Almost everyone recognizes that Israel has the right to self defense, but most people who think that also believes their response is at least disproportionate.
Who is arguing that Israel fighting back is wrong?
Most of the world thinks that. They would also take issue with you characterizing what Israel is doing as “fighting back” and “self defense”. Self-defense is when you steal land, ethnically cleanse the inhabitants, force them into a small area, then besiege them there for decades, and then blow the whole place up. Because some of them dared take up arms and broke out. You know, self defense!
What a wild distortion of history here. You seem to be completely ignoring the many times the Arab Nations have attacked Israel, and lost. You’re also ignoring the land Israel has returned when peace agreements have been made or their various attempts to negotiate peace based on the borders established when the mandate was lifted.
I guess the fact that numerous neighbors of theirs have spent decades calling for the death of Jews and acting on it doesn’t really mean much in the grand scheme of things when it comes to a country defending itself…
You also seem to have overlooked the nearly 1 million Jews who had their homes stolen and were forced out of their countries of residents in the 40s and 50s when they were told to go to Israel where they belong. Let’s not let history or facts get in the way of a good oppressor narrative.
Saree also identified the first vessel as the Unity Explorer, which is owned by a British firm that includes Dan David Ungar, who lives in Israel, as one of its officers. The Number 9 is linked to Bernhard Schulte Shipmanagement. Managers for the two vessels could not be immediately reached for comment.
Israeli media identified Ungar as being the son of Israeli shipping billionaire Abraham “Rami” Ungar.
However, ownership details in public shipping databases associated the ship’s owners with Ray Car Carriers, which was founded by Abraham “Rami” Ungar, who is known as one of the richest men in Israel.
Just from a quick search. Where did you get your info from? Or did you think that all Barbados flagged ships are owned by people that live full time in Barbados?
So the ships aren’t linked to Israel but companies that own the ships have Israeli citizens somewhere in their higher structure? Or are in some nebulous and unspecified way linked to Israeli citizens? Like neither of those sources even tried to claim the ships even did business in Israel.
What’s next? Shaking hands with a Israeli will get you attacked by pirates?
Instead of using all the logical fallacies you do to avoid learning something that violates your bias, just be intellectualy honest and say “I believe Israel is above the law and they need to be protected at all costs. No other lives are as valuable as Israeli lives” cuz bruh, Yemen attacking a ship owned by the firm of Israel’s richest person is a long shot from
What’s next? Shaking hands with a Israeli will get you attacked by pirates?
and you know this. Quit playing yourself. Who are you fighting for, anyway?
If you read your own source that ship wasn’t owned by that Israeli guy, it’s affiliated with him somehow according to the houthies but I can’t find any connection to the guy when looking around online.
The first source just straight up said it wasn’t an Israeli ship but a British one but one officer was Israeli.
I’m not sure what fallacies you are talking about but I think Israel should absolutely be sanctioned and pressured however possible to stop their genocide. The houthies are only doing piracy on random ship and doing nothing to stop Israel, just using the distraction to justify piracy.
The “shaking hands with an Israeli” thing is called reductio ad absurdum.
I totally agree that Israel should get the same level on sanctions as Russia did after invading Ukraine.
What I think you and a lot of other commenters are unaware of is how convoluted ship ownership is, for tax avoidance purposes. It seems like many people assume that Israeli ships are the ones with Israeli flags and for some reason Bahamas people have a shit ton of ships, probably because there’s a lot of water around there, right? This ignorance fuels the acceptance of the narrative that Houthis are rebel scum or pirates that are so dumb they keep attacking the wrong ships, but the truth actually speaks to their sophistication and intent.
Plus so many Israelis are dual citizens, like Dan David Ungar from the article I linked, who is also a British citizen and lives in Israel and is the son of the richest man is Israel, so saying “owned by a British citizen” is not untrue but it is a disingenuous service to the truth.
Even if he owns that ship and no one else does it’s still a random ship, if the houthies were actually trying to blockade Israel this would be very different. So far they have attacked 2 Russian oil tankers with no connection to Israel, that alone is enough to see they arent targeting their attacks in any way and it’s just piracy with using the troubles inflicted on the Palestinians as a shield. It’s literally genocide profiteering.
Ambrey assessed that the vessel was mistakenly targeted based on outdated publicly available information linking the vessel to the United Kingdom.
“This appeared to be five months old but was still listed as UK-affiliated on a public maritime database,” the report said.
So maybe it was the same situation as the other UK-affiliated ship we were talking about, not sure. I still don’t understand how you don’t equate Houthi action to American sanctions on Russian oligarch ships in the hopes that they convince Putin to stop his war in Ukraine.
Because they haven’t yet targeted a ship supplying Israel. They are raiding ships that are vulnerable and not much else by the look of these attacks, most non-military ships are coming from Saudi Arabia and most are heading to India, not a single one coming or going to Israel.
Powerful nations almost inevitably sponsor terrorist groups to be a thorn in the side for other nations. These terrorists target civilians to ensure a disproportionate response. There is no end to these conflicts because the primary fighters have no desire to negotiate and are willing to sacrifice any civilians around them as meat shields.
The U.S. does it (Taliban v1, many coups). Israel does it (Hamas). Iran does it (Hamas, Hezbolla and Yemen). Russia does it (Taliban v2, many coups).
Can’t remember hearing about China or India doing it though? But they care about a different part of the world and so I’m not sure I hear about it as much in western media.
China supports and backs the MNDAA, which is nominally a terrorist organization but really (like Hamas, Hezbollah, and Ansarallah) probably does a better job of governance than the Myanmar government.
Yes, and even within a country there are often various factions taking action at the same time but with different aims, like when American president JFK wouldn’t send reinforcements for the Bay of Pigs invasion and the coup was foiled.
I think you misunderstand. People are responsible for their own actions, broadly speaking. The only people at fault for the US dropping bombs on Yemen are the people who chose to do so, and every military member “just following orders” beneath them who actually executed it.
The responsible parties acted responsibly by blowing the hell out of the irrational idiots. So, yup 100% responsible for keeping the shipping lanes safe. Glad you understand. Now go explain it to the idiots and such totally expectable results may be avoided.
Can someone explain to me how this is “A Breach of Yemeni Sovereignty”? It seems like these actions are supported by the internationally recognized government in Yemen. (I’m not asking about the validity of these actions, or the horrendous effects of them. Just the sovereignty question)
Also, is this the interviewee? It appears she is a language and literacy assistant professor who happens to be Yemeni American, not an expert on the Yemen war, international law, or anything else relevant to these events.
This is the same “international recognition” that doesn’t consider Taiwan to be a legitimate government?
International recognition isn’t worth shit. Ansarallah has de facto control over the vast majority of Yemen’s territory. Just as the ROC is the government of Taiwan, Ansarallah is the government of Yemen.
Thank you for providing a good example! I’m really not sure what the status of Taiwan’s Sovereignty would be, but it’s definitely something to think about.
I have seen this level of argumentation by an anonymous Scottish Nazi (yes, actual English NatSoc) while talking to me. Sounds about correct for your ilk.
LMAO you are so stupid. ROC is not a fucking government, it is the official name of Taiwan, Republic of China. The government in ROC province is a ruling party DPP, that is a US stooge, and is falling out of favour with the Taiwanese locals, as both Kuomintang and the Taiwanese people are wanting to reunite with the mainland, free of US/NATO interference. They have seen what happened to Ukraine, and they do not want Taiwan to become another used condom for American superimperialist war fetishes.
Delusion is peaking, beware. Formosa no longer wants to stay away from their true brethren, Chinese people, which they themselves are too. America and white/English people will never be friends or their own people.
I wonder if you ever noticed that Taiwan never launched their own currency, or declared independence and asked for dejure sovereign status. There must be a reason for that. Try to look at it critically.
The internationally recognized government does not have control over the populated regions of the country. It’s a farce to pretend they represent the Yemeni people.
That’s not really an answer to my question. “Control” does not get you sovereignty, and neither does “representing the people”. It comes down to governance and international recognition. Mexican cartels control large areas of the country, but no one is arguing they have sovereignty. Similarly, there are many repressive regimes in the world that do not represent their people, but they maintain their sovereignty.
The issue is that the sovereignty of nation states is a somewhat nonsensical idea that has little to no solid philosophical backing. Nations aren’t living things and shouldn’t have rights in the same way people have. They are imaginary constructs, and the consequences of this are inevitable debates over what is or is not a nation. But there is no clear dividing line or definition—and in this ambiguity, powerful nations are free to recognize or ignore nations as they choose.
If you support the US action, you can claim that the Houthis are not a sovereign nation, the action was at the invitation of the legitimate government of this region against an terrorist organization, and was entirely legal and justified.
If you oppose the action, you claim that Houthis are a group of freedom fighters who have established a new separate nation that should be recognized, and this action was an illegal violation of that newfound sovereignty.
Neither can be said to be completely correct or incorrect because there is no solid basis for this idea of sovereignty.
That doesn’t answer my question either. I wasn’t the one who brought up sovereignty, it was the article. It seems to ridiculous to say, this is “A Breach of Yemeni Sovereignty” but no one seems to able to assert the Houthis have sovereignty to start with.
If you treat the Houthis as a non-sovereign entity, they can be attacked freely under international law by the international community as pirates.
If you treat the Houthis as a sovereign entity, they can be attacked under international law by affected nations as the attacks can be interpreted as an act of war.
So it doesn’t really matter if they are sovereign or not.
It matters because if the Houthis are a non-sovereign entity, then POTUS can order an attack under prior congressional approvals. However, if they are a Sovereign State, then attacking them would be an act of war, requiring congressional approval.
If the issue is with American law instead of international law, then you need to use the American list of recognized sovereign nations. Does the USA recognize the Houthis as leading a sovereign nation?
Your analogy falls flat because, while powerful, cartels are rarely looking to supplant state control. Instead they seek state complicity which is a different thing altogether.
Ansar Allah on the other hand has set up its own governance structures. As I said, most of the populated regions of Yemen are governed under these structures. That’s despite a US backed campaign to bomb and starve them out over most of the last decade.
If the US doesn’t want to recognize the sovereignty of the Ansar Allah led Yemeni government then the US concept of sovereignty is effectively meaningless.
Your analogy falls flat because while powerful cartels are rarely looking to supplant state control. Instead they seek state complicity which is a different thing altogether.
Okay, what about IS? Did they have Sovereignty?
If the US doesn’t want to recognize the sovereignty of the Ansar Allah led Yemeni government then the US concept of sovereignty is effectively meaningless.
If you/anyone else thinks sovereignty is meaningless, that’s fine but it’s not what I asked about. My original question was how is this “A breach of sovereignty”? You don’t seem to be arguing why it is a breach of sovereignty.
Again that’s a terrible analogy. ISIS was an international insurgency that went so far as to explicitly reject the very concept of modern day nation states. Of course they didn’t deserve to be treated as a sovereign power.
Conversely Ansar Allah is a domestic organization. It’s commonly referred to as the Houthi movement because it has many leaders who are Houthis, a Yemeni tribe. They rose to power after the previous Yemeni government faced a crisis of legitimacy during the Arab spring.
I’m not? The US is using an incoherent notion of sovereignty that just so happens to align with their geopolitical interests. Sorry if that’s a hard truth for you to accept.
Even if you are right, which doesn’t look like you are, then the Yemeni “government” started war with the US and other countries by attacking their ships.
I think you meant Saudi Arabia. There’s nothing interesting there in Yemen for the US government. They only decided to provide a response after one of Iranian/Houthi rockets was fired at their ship.
It is in no way a breach of Yemeni authority. th government has no control over the territory in question, and it is being used to make repeated military strikes against US military and international civilian targets. This is entirely legal and justified under both US and international law. I’m just surprised it took this long.
There are plenty of legitimate governments - and to be clear, by “legitimate” we usually mean the government recognized by the international community, whether or not any given people think they’re good guys or whatever - who do not control all of the territory they claim.
The point is that if a territory is under control of a foreign or rebel group and is attacking international civilian or military assets, then the international community can respond if the country that has claims to the territory cannot. I’m not even sure that the Yemeni government is in a position to coordinate strikes at this point, but that would be the standard approach otherwise.
If the Proud Boys took over south Texas and started launching military attacks against Mexican military facilities, and the US government was unable to stop them, Mexico and the international community would be within their legal rights to stop them.
It’s the US and the UK that are carrying out the bombings here. They alone do not constitute the international community. They do not have the right to determine what entities are sovereign or not.
As far as Ansar Allah goes, they control most of Yemen including the capital. It’s a farce to pretend they’re some breakaway rebel group and not the de facto government.
The US and Saudi Arabia tried to just that for the last decade and failed while killing thousands of civilians in the process. Maybe it’s time to try actually negotiating.
The civilian shipping lines that were attacked without provocation were and are part of the international community, so I have no idea what you’re talking about. In addition, US military vessels were directly and repeatedly attacked, which international law permits as deserving of a military response. The US would be within its rights to start an attack using tomahawks as well as loitering drones over the territory to hit vehicles and personnel.
Which would be perfectly apt for Ansarallah and Yemen’s allies to carpet bomb too. USA needs some of that treatment they did to North Korea in the 1980s.
The alternative is to first pressure Israel to end the genocide they’re carrying out in Gaza. Second, negotiate with Ansar Allah to ensure shipping not associated with Israel can safely pass through the Red Sea.
I believe a majority of ships actually fly “flags of convenience” which is where the owner of the ship registers it in a different country than the one they are from. It’s done as a way for owners to avoid regulations and taxes.
Did not check other ships, but the very first ship they hijacked did not dock in Israel, it wasn’t registered in Israel and it did not have an Israeli crew.
Yeah and they knew that from miles away that the company who owns that ship is owned by another company where Israeli businessesman have some ownership.
The Russian tanker they recently hit must have been owned by Netanyahu himself, and the US Navy they targeted earlier must be owned by Larry David. /s
Yeah and they knew that from miles away that the company who owns that ship is owned by another company where Israeli businessesman have some ownership.
I mean these things probably have schedules to them so yeah? You only need to look up the ship's name to know who owns it.
The Russian tanker they recently hit must have been owned by Netanyahu himself, and the US Navy they targeted earlier must be owned by Larry David. /s
As they themselves admitted, the Russian tanker was a mistake. And the US navy has been helping Saudi Arabia blockade Yemen for 9 years, not to mention they're helping blockade violators and actively bombing Yemen. The Houthis are well within their rights to shoot them.
Israeli officials insisted the ship was British-owned and Japanese-operated. However, ownership details in public shipping databases associated the ship’s owners with Ray Car Carriers, founded by Abraham “Rami” Ungar, who is known as one of the richest men in Israel.
There was also the bio fuel tanker, initially claimed to not go to israel but Italy so everyone said that the Houthis failed again. But then it came out that after the stop in Italy, it had a stop in israel planned.
From the article I linked above:
All ships belonging to the Israeli enemy or that deal with it will become legitimate targets,” the Houthis said.
yeah I’m sure the group who’s motto is effectively “fuck the jews” are people that can be reasoned with. maybe focus on the genocide that’s actually happening, not the one that tik tok influencers told you to whine about
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