siin

siin, 6 months ago

@khthoniaa I definitely agree with you, and others who have mentioned that this discourse seems to bypass disabled experiences entirely (or, as VI aptly pointed out, even cheer for their demise).

As I've pondered this, I've been going through sources of information on these ideologies and you're right: I find that in nearly everything I've read (and come on, I mean, I'm not acting like I'm an expert, I've spent 30 minutes online skimming, but it's the beginning of learning) disabled people are just... not mentioned at all.

Whilst I'm finding I agree with some aspects of the ideology, this seems like a glaring ethical issue that's difficult to rectify. I said this elsewhere on this thread, but I generally would say I agree with anti-civ/anti-tech as a personal framework rather than an ideology. As an ideology, I think it fails most critical analysis.

siin, 6 months ago

@Julian_Invictus I don't disagree with you whatsoever.

I think? (and as I just mentioned elsewhere, I'm just starting to dig into this and try to learn about it, so like, I'm certainly trying to be open about my current ignorance as I type this) most people espousing this ideology are either, as @lannan brought up, considering a future in which civilization is wrenched from us by some kind of cataclysmic collapse (which doesn't seem far fetched, all great civilizations have collapsed, it seems like pride and denial to claim ours won't) and how to move forward in that space, or are using it as a personal framework and an attempt to distance themselves from aspects of civilization or technology that they find alienating, oppressive, or so on.

But you're right: if there are those (and I'm sure there are) that are actively advocating for causing such collapse in order to return to primitivism in the name of some misunderstood nostalgia, I think that they're thinking illogically. It's a valid thought experiment or ideological discussion to consider the "what ifs" of "if civilization never happened" and to consider how things were better in a distant past (and I think that in some ways there were things that were better and are things we can learn from our ancestors) in order to learn from them, but it doesn't feel like a valid discussion to claim that from the standpoint of today that we could implement that, say, tomorrow, and have it be anything but total shit.

siin, 6 months ago

@lannan @Julian_Invictus I hear your idea, and I appreciate you sharing it. I personally don't see a hyper-urbanized future that doesn't rely on infrastructure that causes exactly the same kinds of economic exploitation and ecological destruction that we see in our current state of existence. I'm open to being wrong, but I've lived in cities my entire life and have seen the quality of life that exists when many people with different goals and needs are held in one place and lack all sovereignty over how to meet those needs. I can't imagine a utopian future where we somehow manage hyper-urbanization without a lot of the same quality of life issues that we have today.

Additionally, it's a fallacy that nature will just "rewild" if only we leave it alone. Indigenous peoples tended the land for tens of thousands of years, (and probably much longer). And in lieu of the species that used to tend the land: the bison that used to trample the grass and leave manure, the beavers that used to dam water and create floodplains, for example, "nature" does not have the tools to just "heal itself" the way that Muir and others believed/believe that it would or will.

But again, I appreciate the thought. We all have to share our ideas and be open about the potential roadblocks if we're ever to find solutions that our right for our communities. And I think that that's the best approach, right? I'm not looking for global solutions, but moreso considering ways in which my own little corner of the world and my own little slice of the billions of people on this planet can live in a way that honors our bodies & the land around us. Our answer might be different from yours, and I think that's really wonderful. I don't think that there is any one global solution that will just "work".

@SpiritBearDreaming just posted a reply in this thread that brings up a lot of really wonderful logistical questions about the anti-civ ideology, and I think that a lot of the questions posed would apply to any specific global solution we could try to pose, such as how to overcome ancestral trauma & deeply held conceptions or misconceptions about right and wrong? How to get everyone to agree on a solution and organize to move towards it? How to balance resources, and so on. It's these kinds of questions that send me looking more for a personal or community applicable framework, and not a global solution.

siin, 6 months ago

@SpiritBearDreaming You bring up wonderful questions and make a wonderful point. I've said this, kind of, elsewhere in this thread, but I find these issues with nearly every self-confirming ideology that I find:

it's great in theory, but doesn't logically work when applied to scale or just generally this moment in time & human history.

I'm not exactly sure what all of the anti-civ/anti-tech anarchists out there are looking for. As I've mentioned, I think that most of them are either considering future after collapse, or are considering personal frameworks for life. Although, I do think that there probably are some folks out there who genuinely believe that on a global scale we would be better off if only we threw off the shackles of civilization... and then what?

I don't think that any single ideology works at the scale of 11 billion people (or even our current 7.4 billion, or even at the scale of the US population of 330 million, for that, or the scale of the Los Angeles basin's population of 14 million, for that matter). I think that's one of the things that makes finding meaningful solutions to these very complex global problems SO difficult. We all have somewhat different values, goals, beliefs, connections, experiences, perspectives, access needs, and so on. It might work for my partner & I to go off & live in tipis in the desert with a solar powered "online" hut that we use to access the internet once in a while, but to otherwise spend our days caring for animals & the land. But it would be foolish to assume that would work for everyone, or that from our current modern position we could get everyone to assemble themselves into small egalitarian groups and to not war with one another. You're absolutely right: there is no serious proposition that includes that result.

I do think, however, as @lannan mentions also in this thread, that it can be interesting or necessary to consider which ways we can distance ourselves from reliance on some of the institutional structures that we're reliant on today. Industrial agriculture, industrial pharma, corporatocratic governmental systems, and so on. Modern life has stripped us of sovereignty and control over our own lives and health in so many ways, and I think that it's valuable to consider how we could organize (on a community basis, where there is interest in this) systems that could replace these large institutions whilst still meeting some or most of the needs of the community. Ultimately, people are dying because of a lack of access, and because of a lack of sovereignty, and there seem to be small ways in which this harm can be combated, if we're willing to think outside of what we're taught about blindly trusting the institutions we live within.

siin, 6 months ago

@SpiritBearDreaming I also just want to quickly acknowledge what you mentioned about ancestral trauma, and ancestral work, and the question you posed of how we can possibly go beyond this kind of trauma and actually build something without the ghosts of the past (so to speak) influencing our choices, our behavior, and its outcome.

I don't think that we can, at scale. Again, I don't think that we could realistically propose going from our current modern state to some primitive utopia where we suddenly are transcending our socialization and all of the trauma and learned behaviors that come with that.

But personally, on an individual and potentially small community level? I think it's worth trying to unpack our trauma, to move past it, and to do the work of evaluating our choices, behaviors, conceptions, and so on. For whatever that's worth :)

siin, 6 months ago

@khthoniaa Thank you so much! I'm really pleased and grateful to be hearing everyone's unique perspectives and critiques. I feel like I've already learned so much from everyone's shared experience, and plan on really more deeply processing all that's been shared here to try to figure out how I feel about this framework in general.

I would love to see this theory expanded to include more of the most marginalized and vulnerable populations, and especially I'd love to see individuals doing the work of considering what aspects of civilization are necessary, and which we perhaps need to move away from our reliance on. I've mentioned this in a way elsewhere in the thread and probably will again, but community sovereignty is probably the number one way to ensure access and security for members of that community. If we control our food production, we're less vulnerable to the whims of despots at war, we're less vulnerable to being poisoned by corporations, we reduce our ecological footprint in some small way, and so on (and that's just one example). But this looks different for everyone, and should always consider the different and diverse access needs present in each of our own communities.

Thank you for this comment! I'm grateful for your time and energy in sharing your perspectives & joining in this discussion.

siin, 6 months ago

@Julian_Invictus Being a human amongst other humans is always so hard. We're all so frail with our defensiveness and other psychological nonsense. Glad you have a couple beings that you feel a deeper connection with, that makes a world of difference.

siin, 6 months ago

@Julian_Invictus You're right. We're learning every day, seeking guides, and doing what feels connected & true. Thank you for this, I appreciate you.

siin, 6 months ago

When I shifted away from calling my practice "chaos magick", because it had shifted away from being that, I was wary of ever adopting the term "witch", despite the fact that the textbook definition was semi-accurate and that it's a common descriptor. But quite honestly, the way that I used to describe my practice most recently, as ancestral cultural practices, wasn't accurate either.

There are aspects of our practice that are very loosely and tangentially related to pre-Catholic Mexican practices (and for me more personally, Sicilian beliefs or practices, although my scholarship is lacking here and it's kind of hard to explain why I even say this, but I'll try later), but to say that our practice is ultimately based on these is inaccurate.

I think that what I've been trying to convey, or to honor, is that I've been following a complex set of experiences which have left me with impressions of these practices, but not necessarily the practices themselves. That the embeddings I've had into various kinds of spirituality amongst groups or people I've been involved with have opened the door to a kind of connection and a kind of openness to the wisdom kept closely within their practices. However, I think that I've miscommunicated and inadvertently conflated this impression with the real thing.

Meanwhile, my practice has developed along a different trajectory as experiences with guides and teachers continue to occur. Based on the actual, tangible actions within this practice, there is more than just worship occurring. The practice of magick itself has been a central part of my practice for years now, and for this reason I plan on re-introducing my practice and using the term "witch" as a descriptor.

That still feels strange, and I can't quite put my finger on why. By definition, it is accurate: a practitioner of magick, the tangible practice of which is usually rooted in pagan or neo-pagan systems.

But it's complicated, because much of the education, especially in the last year and a half, on these systems has come from guides and not books, from intuitive action and not grimoires.

This path has been complicated, but perhaps that's normal. Perhaps many of us here have found that once we open the door to wisdom, to spirits, to gods, to guides ancestral and not, that we find ourselves exploring a little, feeling out our own intuition and learning little by little what the right direction is, like someone groping about in the dark with the tiniest candle flame to guide them.

#Paganism #Pagan #Witch #Witchcraft #Meditations

siin, 6 months ago

@REEL Yes! To say that 'purity' is the goal would be to detract from the power of all syncretic belief systems, and beyond that: the reality of syncretic belief systems oozing and bleeding their way across cultural lines, taught in half, talked about, used as inspiration, molded and remolded, and so on. One of the things I found so inspiring about the Psychic Bible (my first real introduction into magick or the occult) was the "use what you have, use what makes sense to you" mentality. Levi says to forge a blade under Jupiter using iron! I don't have a forge! I didn't know when Jupiter was out! Where does one get iron? But, I have paper and a pen, I have candles and wax, I have flowers and incense, I have stones and shattered mirrors.

Christians have had the privilege of not being concerned about the degradation of their culture and therefore have had the foresight and understanding that adaptation of their practice is crucial to their survival. Why did the new Jesus movement happen at all? Why do progressive Christian churches hang LGBTQ+ flags? Evolution, adaptation. The Church wants to survive, it wants to be fed.

Sometimes I think we can learn from that: sometimes our practices, too, need to evolve and adapt. Remembering the old ways, passing them down, but letting go of control, for once the old ways were the new ones, too.

There's a conflict between getting in touch with ancestral practice and day to day reality, sometimes. And it isn't to say that one can't attain to their ancestral practice 100%, I think that it is possible depending on your access to teachers, materials, information, language, etc. But purity becomes harder and harder as bloodlines become blurred, as affiliation becomes confusing, as assimilation makes this or that no longer resonant, as we adapt practice to legailty and social norms (one example that comes to mind is of modern Santerias who no longer practice animal sacrifice but who adapt and create substitutions instead).

And I agree with you that the blend IS the magick! Such power comes from adaptation, autonomy, agency, sovereignty, taking control of your own practice, learning from many teachers, listening to many guides, and so on.

siin, 6 months ago

@lifewithtrees @iraantlers @nathanlovestrees I second this! Foraging for meaningful totems is how I built up my first altar. It gave me something to connect to, and helped me create a regular practice (that waxed and waned over the years, as things do)

siin, 6 months ago

@Cat_LeFey we're glad you're here! Thank you for sticking with us 😋

siin, 6 months ago

@SpiritBearDreaming This is absolutely beautiful. Thank you for sharing this wonderful ritual.

I think it's quite amazing that you also found that friends & family members felt comfortable joining in. I'll definitely be considering ways in which we could bring family together into our Solstice rituals.

Thank you again, hearing how your circle used to celebrate the Solstice feels very inspiring.

siin, 7 months ago

@Cat_LeFey Oh what a brilliant idea, I must do this immediately while we have blustery weather but not too much dust blowing around!

siin, 7 months ago

The tattoo that I received/gave myself in ritual, a commemoration of spiritual attainment.

I have plans to extend the ceremony, to add to this and even it out with handwork when it heals: to turn it into a long lasting sigil, an earned adornment.

This tattoo was done using a cutting technique that I do not offer to clients for many (kind of obvious) reasons.

#Siin #Inkwork #SacredTattoo #RitualTattoo #MagickTattoo #Handwork #Tattoo

siin, 7 months ago

@khthoniaa Thank you so much. I'm so grateful that it's meaningful to others, that I share these little ramblings about my work. 🖤