@mattwilcox to me that sounds a lot like someone saying: "you could write so much more efficient and faster code using assembly (or C/Rust for that matter)!"
Yes that‘s totally true, but learning assembly is way harder than using $myProgrammingLanguageOfChoice and I‘m way faster that way.
@fluffel The perception that many tailwind users have is that CSS is very hard and complicated. Tailwind feels more familiar.
Thing is, CSS is much more powerful, is actually easy when you understand the principles, does not entangle style with template (leading to DRY benefits), and at the end of the day - tailwind is nothing more than one type of css used over and over. It’s just inline styles.
@mattwilcox still sounds a lot like someone trying to convince me to use Assembly, C or Rust - instead one of my high level languages.
All your arguments are technically correct (which is the best kind of correct), but would cost me months or years of learning, when the alternative just works without me doing anything different.
@mattwilcox I think I’m starting to understand. Some people who really like and know CSS get a little irritated or angry, because others like to use abstractions? Like someone using Wordpress (or any other "default CMS") for their website, instead of writing their own blogging engine?
@fluffel Your abstraction thing is sort-of right, but for that analogy to hold here's the rule:
Instead of <?php wp_header() ?> you had to write something like <?php wordpress(helpers(layout(box('header')))) && wordpress(helpers(colouring(text('red')))) && wordpress(helpers(animation('header','fade-in'))) ?> and you also couldn't use includes - so you had to do it on every template that uses a header.
It's nonsense gibberish and fragile, slow, and a total pain in the ass to change later.
@mattwilcox I think you forget about all those projects who simply don‘t have a designer (yet) and still want or need to ship.
Again to me this sounds exactly like: Yes you can use CraftCMS or something for internal prototypes, but because it‘s not custom and hand written by a backend developer in your team you should never ship it.
@fluffel You're massively devaluing an entire branch of web stuff (that you admit you don't know) and massively elevating another (that you do).
Sure, if you want to ship tailwind ship tailwind. But, it's also got its costs - which you yourself aren't paying and so don't care about.
If clients are ok paying the price then that's on them - but there are ways that perform better, and are easier to maintain, that do that same thing and more - if you're able to learn, or hire for that skillset.
@mattwilcox it was not my intention to devalue anything and if I came across like this I am sorry.
I‘m just trying to understand if there is any substance to this whole Tailwind disliking or not. Because to me this all sounds like „abstractions are bad, because if you‘re an expert of the low-level stuff underneath it can be better!“ - which would be true for almost anything and therefore a nonsense discussion I can ignore.
@fluffel If you're trying to decide that, shouldn't the increased frequency you're seeing it - along with who you're seeing it from aid with that?
Tailwind is a tool to produce visual design; and experts in that field are telling you Tailwind sucks. Should we not be trusting experts in the fields of their expertise, rather than thinking because we can dabble in it we know just as much and have just as valid a viewpoint?
that's what I mean about devaluing things. It's such a common issue.
@fluffel (The issue of someone who knows a little bit not valuing the opinions - or emerging concensus - of experts in the field. The devaluing of expert opinion in the face of casual personal experience. It's exactly this reason why so much crap in politics goes the way it does. Not recognising the limitations of one's own knowledge and not valuing that knowledge in others)
@fluffel As said - there is nothing wrong with Tailwind for the right use cases.
But if you demand to fully understand the the criticism so you don't toss it out-of-hand, it would require you to become an expert in design and CSS - or to trust those that are. You aren't, and you choose not to.
@mattwilcox I still don’t get what gives you the impression of me not trusting experts? The whole point of me asking for a TLDR was to get the opinions of exactly those experts so I don‘t have to dig too deep into these particular trenches myself.
@fluffel You don’t want to dig deep? That means trusting what’s said. Not dismissing it because experts can’t explain in a sufficiently basic manner and you like using it.
@fluffel No, you're good - its just a specific conversation that repeats and repeats, and I'm seeing the same sort of behaviour ... well, everywhere.
Use tailwind if it suits your needs. But don't believe that because it suits your needs that it suits all needs. Or many needs.
And I wish, in general, people wouldn't ask to "be convinced" without realising the gulf of things that'd need to be mutually understood for that to happen. Complex topics can't be boiled down into persuasive points..
@mattwilcox Oh I see! I never thought a single tool suits all or most needs, it never does and how could it?
All I want(ed) to figure out is whether the problems frontend people have with it are something I need to worry about for what I use it for. So far I think it‘s still good enough :)
@fluffel Of course, no worries - and I'm sorry if I wasn't being clear and if I was off-base with where you're coming from.
Back to specifics - Tailwind does a good job for prototyping. But it's a tool most appropriate for prototyping. Should you worry about using it for end products? Depends on your client; but in general... it's not a good tool for that if your client values future upkeep, longevity, ease of design changes over time, etc.
@fluffel ..unless there's sufficient shared understanding. And, usually, there isn't.
So what feels like a responsible take - to ask for a more detailed explanation - "persuade me" ... just isn't. It ends up missing the mark, and then the person seeking persuasion ends up convinced of the opposite. That because they couldn't be made to understand in a moment or two, then the expert's wrong.
Asking to be persuaded when there's too much ignorance is actually counter productive.
@fluffel And all of that's not a value judgement, or accusation. We are all ignorant of most things. And recognising when we are is hard. It's also why I value broad but shallow knowledge - enough to know when we don't know enough to have a meaningful position, or point of reference, or rebuttal, or base to proceed from.
@fluffel And yet you have multiple times argued about a tangential thing you are knowledgable about and then said what you are being told doesn’t make sense in that context. No. It won’t. It’s not a good comparison. And you have multiple times said because of that, you aren’t convinced. You won’t be.
@fluffel Yes and no. There's nothing wrong with Tailwind - it has its place. Like you say, it's great for people like yourself.
But. The reason people who know how to design and style dislike it is because it's a poor tool for them and because the end result - the actual code it enforces and generates - is janky as hell.
Imagine if using "an abstraction" like wordpress also meant you had to litter the code you wrote with a ton of otherwise pointless code. It'd have code smell to you.
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