Why I left Startrek.website, created TenForward, and the admin abuse I've suffered from ST.W since then
cross-posted from: lemmy.world/post/11959024
tl;dr The admins of Startrek.website are censoring users, have been harassing me across multiple websites, and have tried to convince the admins of other instances to ban me because I didn’t remove comments that were critical of them on TenForward which I only made in turn because the mod of Risa was doing whatever he wanted despite it saying “No rules”.
Hey. So when creating TenForward, this information was being kept out of the loop for a very good reason. We didn’t want the community to be based off of drama or bad vibes or bad feelings in any way. When we made the post saying that we had created it for the explicit reason of wanting to have a place with more robust mods and with more rules, that was 100% true. However the reason as to why I came to this conclusion?
I started posting on Startrek.website back in August. Within a week or two I had gone to their Patreon and immediately subscribed, even sending a message of support and saying that if I was causing any issues to please let me know immediately. Over time I started posting more and more across different communities and instances, mostly taking inspiration from the one and only Picard Maneuver. Anyone who gives me praise should really just be giving it all to him.
Things kept going perfectly fine until a couple of months ago when I noticed some weird things in the modlog of /c/Risa. A friend of mine had made a post and it got removed within an hour. It was the same type of post that I would have made but got taken down and with no reason given. Looking at the modlog of the community, I noticed that a lot of posts were being removed for strange reasons. Either the explanation was simply “Does not inspire Jamaharon” or something super dismissive. This really left a bad taste in my mouth considering Risa’s sidebar explicitly stated at the time (and does today) “there are no real rules”. I contacted the admins (on my startrek.website account) and asked what the deal with the moderation and questioned the behavior of one moderator in particular as being extremely aggressive. They said that they didn’t really get involved in moderation of Risa unless it was against the instance rules entirely, they just let the mods do their thing.
At this point there were two mods on the log. USS Burrito Truck and Carrot. GuyFleegman had previously left and I’d never seen Carrot active. USS BT on the other hand was the only one who was actively posting content and comments. I had a couple of run ins with BT. First was when I was making the Car Talk with Martok posts. I accidentally double posted and deleted one of them. The one left up was removed. When I asked if they could be reinstated, BT said that the double posting was suspicious. That’s why for the longest time there were two posts saying “Image Only” and not linking to the full posts. BTs behavior as well was just questionable. All of his comments with people are incredibly aggressive, needlessly so, and abrasive in an unwarranted way.
The last time I encountered him was on one of my posts on Risa. I genuinely don’t remember what the post was or what the situation was but a user was being quite aggressive and troll-y. Stuff like “This is why all left wing people” or something along those lines. Just silly shit. But they also said something that I personally found transphobic. I genuinely don’t remember what it was and due to my deleting my Startrek.website account (I’ll get to that), I can’t check the post themselves.
I said that it was disgustingly transphobic and it had no place belonging in the Star Trek community as a whole, nevermind the community or instance. I then reported it. Sometime later, BT came in and said that it wasn’t my place to say what did and didn’t belong. Fair enough. That is totally true. But then he left the comment up and banned the person for 2 weeks for saying “This is my biggest problem with the left.” Sidenote here but this user in question? They’re a self admitted alt account of someone who was banned from lemmy.world, startrek.website, lemmy.ml and even hexbear for transphobic and bigoted behavior.
So I messaged the admins of StarTrek.website, SysAdmin and ValueSubtracted, again about the situation and asked what they thought. SysAdmin reiterated that they didn’t want to get involved with community moderation and only stay at an admin level (slightly hypocritical as they’re both moderators of /c/StarTrek, /c/Quarks and /c/StarTrekOnline, the biggest communities outside of /c/Risa). I thanked them for their time then and said I was leaving and heading over to lemmy.world. I was also going to set up my own community that was not meant to compete with but meant to be an alternate to. SysAdmin wished me luck (I’m not sure Value Subtracted ever messaged me again, although he could have) and I left. I created /c/StarTrekMemes on lemmy.world.
Some stuff personally happened and I got fairly depressed and took a break from lemmy entirely. StarTrekMemes had died on arrival due to me not bothering to put any effort in or really try, just leaving out of frustration. After about a month or so I go back to look at /c/Risa and see what the deal is and if things have gotten better. First place I check is BTs profile to see if he’s cooled off at all. No. He’s in the comments of someones post being very heavy handed and with a really harsh tone. So I check the post itself. It was one by NegativeNull that was openly questioning the removal of a Star Trek Shitpost and saying that it didn’t compute. Various people were in the comments questioning it. Out of frustration I made a few comments elaborating that this was precisely the reason that I left Risa and set up /c/StarTrekMemes. I also elaborated on the transphobic comment thing and that I wasn’t comfortable with it. I deleted it not long later because I didn’t want to cause headaches for the admins of StarTrek.website. Oh did I get over that frame of mind very quickly.
Upon realizing that more and more people were growing frustrated with this, I reached out to a few people to see if they would be interested in making a new community together, ignoring the extremely bland/uninspired name of StarTrekMemes and building something fresh. We explicitly decided to not call out Risa by name or USS Burrito Truck. We wanted to build the community off of what it is and not base it off of a public disagreement. TenForward is now pretty heavily established which is why I have no issue making this post at this point. We made our point. We built TenForward for what it is. What it is is just a community with a robust community team and with a pinned and clear rule set so users can know what’s going on and what to expect.
We announced the community and how fast we gained subscribers was a shock to us all. There are messages between us mods being genuinely surprised at how quickly people filtered in. On the announcement post we got a comment that surprised the hell out of me. It was from GuyFleegman. You may remember that name from earlier as being a moderator of Risa. What I didn’t know was that he was the creator of original Risa on Reddit and the one who came over and created Risa on Startrek.website. He said that TenForward was his original choice of name for Risa which was a really great boost for us but he also said this:
“No real rules” worked just fine for years, in practice I enforced the same self-evident conduct boundaries that you have outlined here. If you have to tell someone to be civil and tolerant then that person was going to ignore the rules even if they had been communicated.
Which honestly makes sense. Totally see where he was coming from. But he also said this…
But since I stopped modding, the mod there seems to have moved beyond these boundaries without committing to any actual rules. This is totally unsurprising given the way that group of mods runs their communities, so I’m glad to see this place pop up.
Group of mods? USS Burrito Truck (mod of Risa), Value Subtracted (mod of /r/StarTrek) and Corgana (creator and mod of /r/StarTrek). Corgana being the public facing account of SysAdmin. ValueSubtracted was a heavily active mod and the top mod outside of Corgana. If you ever wondered why Reddit had so many different Star Trek communities, that was because of Value. If you ever wondered why /r/StarTrek had the reputation of banning anyone who spoke critically of Discovery, that was because of Value. Any criticism was taken as abuse towards the show itself and was immediately acted upon with bans. /r/StarTrekDiscovery was created with the specific intention of distancing themselves from Value and allowing people to discuss the show without fear of mod retribution.
So the announcement post carries on. People who start questioning the Risa stuff we start steering away. All of us were openly saying what I did before because it’s the truth. We had a different mod philosophy and wanted to make a different community to reflect that and have more clear rules. When I said that Risa didn’t have a blatant rule against Bigotry, Corgana responded saying the entire instance did. GuyFleegman said that he took some slight offense to the way I was wording things and suggesting that he or Risa allowed bigotry, which is not what I meant but my language didn’t properly reflect that. I apologized and even said I’d take that more into account with how I was phrasing things. Guy said it wasn’t a problem but I even explicitly said that I was not trying to cause problems with anyone.
Some people started going through the modlogs of Risa and through that, the previous post questioning moderation, or my deleted comments were able to piece it together. They started answering people questioning it. One such comment was one saying:
Fun hatin, power trippin mod got butthurt abt sumthin and can’t abide. IDK it’s pretty early.
This comment will be relevant in a moment.
One of the people who answered was Corgana, an admin of Startrek.website. He left a comment, got a response, and then tried to edit it after the fact to make it look like something else. Here is a screenshot of the conversation:
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dfd2fe07-2fe4-4a2f-813c-58b56b065175.png
The refresh at the bottom was a comment Corgana made where he said that the mod at Risa was just doing what he thought was best for the community and making sure that it wasn’t ‘unfun’. It got downvoted into the negative. Someone responded saying “Then make a rule about it and don’t just say that there are “no rules”” that was upvoted into the double digits. Corgana deleted his comment. I then sent a private message to Teft specifically saying thank you for laying it out correctly.
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/5fcc20f6-dd5b-427f-ba6a-7f288362a89d.png
Remember that comment I mentioned earlier about a power trippin mod? Well that comment was actually reported. By whom? ValueSubtracted. I can’t even tell what the entire report was as he appears to have written a small novel.
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/b371a159-c17a-4944-a869-a0791cda2a7f.png
In response, I sent a message to Value with the screenshot of that comment. What follows is a series of back and forth messages. Lemmy lists the messages from top to bottom which is why I’m making these individual screenshots but I will leave a section to prove that it does carry on from that point.
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/840087e3-04e6-4316-9833-cba3cf0b0ce2.png
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/6dbd2b47-aaa4-4d1d-9566-ee13af183be7.png
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/86fefff8-4c73-4d72-9725-4416723f803a.png
At this point I sent a message to Corgana.
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/66b698d8-ce18-43a2-978a-43dc97c50de7.png
He never responded. Value continued to message.
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/4db362b0-59c6-4674-b399-d609854cae3c.png
(Unrelated message to another friend about TenForward rules has been blurred)
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/92e92fe3-12b4-4c17-a9ab-e1378cb57872.png
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/e4c537ff-6777-483e-b305-0a8e0a8c4d4a.png
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/650667d8-c000-4ce2-99f6-2d702ac50714.png
I was absolutely floored by this. I had talked to Value a bunch across Mastodon and Lemmy about Star Trek, especially Discovery. It’s not exactly a secret that I’m a fan of the show so it was nice being able to chat with someone who shared similar perspectives on the show. There was also a user who had joined and was commenting on every single person who responded to my posts on Risa and was calling me a transphobe. Everyone asked for evidence and they couldn’t provide any but I messaged Value about it and he stepped in and took care of it. Like I never saw this coming in any way, shape, or form.
So I reached out to people who may have worked with him in the past. This was the response one gave.
So, VT has one of the most insane “fight” instincts I have ever encountered, online or off. Catch him on a good day and he is a perfectly reasonable individual, pleasant to talk to with clever insights about Star Trek. Catch him on a bad day, and oh man you’re fucked. Shields up red alert, you are going to be dismissed at best and belittled and insulted at worst. If you intend to direct any criticism or doubt in his direction, you need to walk on the most delicate of eggshells for the conversation to be even remotely productive. He’s a uniquely bad choice to lead an online community, and /r/StarTrek’s “no criticizing Discovery” reputation is squarely on him: he loves Discovery and interprets all but the most saccharine and qualified criticism of that show to be an uncivil attack.
He’s not actually a bad person, and I can guarantee there was no bigoted intent in whatever dust-up you had with him: you said something that made him mad and then it was over, he decided to not do what you were asking because you were asking. At the end of the day he’s just very sensitive and a bad fit for community moderation because of his paranoid and combative nature. Elevating him to admin has made it that much worse.
I kept this in mind but didn’t take things further. I wanted things to just chill out. I only ever started posting memes to post memes and make people laugh. I didn’t want to be a moderator or get involved in stuff like this but I just felt enraged by the fact that someone was abusing that position. Power Corrupts, right? I’m always terrified that I’ll step over that line and there have been times I’ve probably come real close. That’s another reason why I wanted a team of us at TenForward. We generally run things by one another, when we rarely need to, and come to a consensus. Things run kinda great in that fashion honestly. We don’t always agree either which is even better. You never want to have everyone come to the same conclusion immediately. You want people to have different perspectives. You want criticism of your opinions and actions to know how to improve them.
I don’t know if it was hours later or the next day but Value made another report that was unfounded and overly dramatic.
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/a5ba7490-9a2b-4ec0-92ad-8fe01ad569a4.png
I sent another message to Value. While I was sending the message, another message coming through at the same time from a random person on lemmy. They came to me completely unprompted but are directly questioning Values behavior explicitly. They’re on bottom.
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/3259e02f-100a-44ed-b970-3e0ed272e121.png
I responded to that person which is in the next screenshot. I’ve kept that in to demonstrate that I was going out of my way to not cause drama and not direct harassment towards anyone, even in private.
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/aa64cf77-deb1-4570-9828-340ec9fef6ca.png
From here on is just the conversation with Value.
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/35622c65-0b13-4868-84d0-3eab4a707317.png
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/506d560f-f054-483b-ab0f-52f39fdb25e6.png
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/7090d82e-a7a1-4009-85bb-f6a412f50afc.png
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/fca8b22e-bcfe-40e4-b45c-a1cb5caafcb0.png
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/777ae933-0c3a-4c19-a3b8-76b3006ae84b.png
My response is on the next page so there’s nothing below to back it up and no real reason to screenshot it. That being said…
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/c7f2baba-6f91-4c94-8400-59357f483192.png
Was that petty? Yeah. But I was so frustrated with having to deal with this. I respected this dude a lot and now he was being monumentally petty and abusing the report function?
That was the last report that he made. I thought it was over. Until I got a message from an admin asking what the hell was going on. I asked why. He showed me this
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/199342d9-7bb9-4e8b-9028-2aa455ec885b.png
I showed him the above screenshots and he said okay and carried on. When I asked later what happened he said
He basically wanted to avoid inter-instance drama and asked what Lemmy World’s stance was on this. I said we are hands-off and inter-instance drama is something I deal with daily. It’s part of the gig. And if we try to mute people we get flack for it and they will just create new accounts. I also pointed out that you were supported by the original creator of the subreddit/community. Then I told him I don’t have time for this as I’m at work.
I realized how absolutely unhinged with power Value Subtracted was and at that point I deleted my Startrek.website account and cancelled my Patreon subscription. I didn’t want him having access to my information in any way shape or form because I just couldn’t trust that he wouldn’t take it too far.
Flash forward to a couple of days ago.
I noticed that I was subscribed to /c/StarTrek@startrek.website still due to a post saying Congratulations to us! In the comment was Corgana, the alternate account of an admin, saying “Thank you guys for all the work you do.” It was at this point I realized he had done this several times in the past. There were other comments where he said people should add stuff to the website, that the admins were doing a great job, or thanking the admins. Honestly this is kinda gross behavior so I openly asked “Why are you using an alternate account to thank yourself?” The comment got downvoted. A day past. Everyone forgot about it. I forgot about it. Then I got a message from the automod.
The comment was removed for ‘drama’. By who? Value Subtracted.
So I made the comment again. Removed this time for “being a diva” within less than a minute.
I made a third comment this time. I was fucking annoyed. The comment had been forgotten about by everyone and no one cared but Value couldn’t let it go in any way, shape or form. So yeah. This is a bit bitchy and dramatic.
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/378aaedf-ce61-49a3-993e-f189dc954534.png
The comment was removed but this time it took much longer. As I found later, it was because Value had messaged an admin trying to get them to take action using multiple different reasonings. They interpreted those comments as harassment and the admin disagreed with the assessment.
In response to this information, I went to my personal Mastodon account where I sent out a toot:
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/d5cda4a6-2b28-45b8-9ee4-132559c673f9.png
Within an hour and a half, I got an email ‘Warning’ from Mastodon. The Admin of my Mastodon instance was asking what my relationship with Startrek.website was. I then elaborated on everything that has happened thus far and provided the same screenshots, although not edited/placed nearly as well. In the email I asked the Mastodon Admin about the report. I said I was concerned that it was a particular person. After providing all this information, the Mastodon Admin replied with this:
[…] your post regarding startrek.website was reported to me. I will not disclose who reported it as per our instance policy. I take all reports seriously so I reached out using the “warning” system Mastodon provides (it also sends an email and I wanted to make sure you received my question via email.). I asked for elaboration so I understood the situation regarding you and startrek.website better. After reviewing your response I don’t think any further action is needed on my part.
Now I am 100% assuming this but who else is filing reports as a super complaint button and trying to get admins to take action on any criticism I say? Yeah. I am fairly sure it was Value Subtracted. After the reported was dismissed, I carried on until today when someone on Mastodon posted this
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/18851fa0-3edb-4734-b3ef-bbabd85ac594.png
The ban is timed to be around the same time as my toot recommending people look into a different instance.
Value Subtracted has harassed multiple admins across multiple different federation instances trying to get them to take action on my posts or my account simply because I do not agree with him. He is petty and vindictive and is taking things to an extreme that I find beyond abhorrent. If he just wanted to get angry and whine to admins, fine. There is a reason I did nothing in response to any of his reports or when the admins reported back saying what he had done. Personally I thought they were the actions of a narcissist who was terrified of criticism and couldn’t handle the concept of anyone ever seeing that criticism of him but I kept it to myself. I didn’t post anything other than just suggesting people look elsewhere. Not even move. Not saying they had to. SUGGESTING.
Value Subtracted has been harassing me for a month across multiple websites and going through multiple admins. He is banning people he disagrees with personally and abusing the position he has as an admin. He is abusing that privlidge and authority by silencing a slew of people (check the modlog of /c/StarTrek where he’s the active mod) and generally acting like such an abrasive person that people openly question his behavior. Whenever anyone pushes against it, the other admin hides behind an alternate account and supports him while pretending to be just a subscriber and a friend.
I have no goals in making this post. I have no goals in airing this. I am just fucking tired of being harassed by this person because any ounce of criticism thrown their way, whether it be to them or a friend, is tantamount to harassment and abuse.
TenForward was created explicitly because the moderator of that community was abusing their position and silencing whoever they wanted. Why in the hell, for even a moment, did I think that the admins would be anything different?
Like I said on Mastodon. I highly encourage and suggest anyone with a Startrek.website (Who won’t see this because they’ve banned me) to leave their instance. Not because they banned me and because I want revenge. But because they’ve proven that they have wildly inconsistent administration and condone cross website abuse and harassment.
I need a fucking drink. Considering I’m an alcoholic, that’s saying probably not that much.
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