That’s not true at all. I’m a nonbinary femme attracted to nonbinary femmes, and I have a similar sense of beauty to many lesbians, when it comes to pretty women. When I see an image of a woman that’s framed to appeal to male sexuality, I feel a sense of revulsion. Sapphic porn is way more respectful, more humanising, and way more hot to myself and lesbians than porn made for straight men.
Women have similar taste in men to gay men, because both are sexually attracted to men. When I say beauty standards for men focus on what men find attractive, I’m talking about the average man. A straight one. Movie stars like The Rock appeal to a straight male power fantasy, rather than to sexual desire. Beauty standards for women are about sex. Beauty standards for men are about power.
It’s almost like humans in general prefer looking at people who appear healthy and conventionally attractive.
The fact that so many people have let themselves become fat and slovenly, doesn’t really impact our evolutionary desire to mate with healthy specimens… And being fit generally demostrates reproductive readiness.
These bodies are exemplary of course,but looking closer to that compared to the fupas and gunts waddling around bitching and moaning isn’t that difficult. Put the fork down and take a walk.
Except for the fact that basically every leading man who takes his shirt off in 99% of mainstream movies have physiques much closer to this than those of most regular people.
If i knew how to use AI to create images i would love to see what Viking_Hippie images are created. But also for real artists i would love to see what they come up with!
I’m actually just Scandinavian (apart from the historical berserkers, it’s also just a colloquial term for Scandinavian people) bleeding heart pacifist with some very left wing politics and more soft spots than hard ones who has big beard, sometimes long hair and thinks Queen and Creedence are two of the best bands ever 😁
That being said, the other probably lends itself to visual presentation better, so I’m all for that artistic licence 😁
So you should know that male bodies are often decidedly average or below average, while female bodies are almost always absurdly high standards. The fact that you’re trying to suggest it’s not a trope to have a really average guy with an unbelievably attractive woman is bonkers. You people are either blind or knowingly just lying. I don’t think you’re this dense so I have to assume that there is a reason you would try to lie like this, the only reason I can come up with for that is that you’re male supremacists of some sort, you’re lying just as naturally as the white supremacists do when it comes to oppression in the area they care about maintaining supremacy over.
Wow… That’s an IMPRESSIVE army of strawmen and other completely unearned vilification you’ve got there.
I’d refute all of it, but based on the speed with which you’re jumping to patently absurd conclusions, I very much doubt that anything short of divine intervention would change your mind and unlike you, I’m not in the mood for conjuring fictional beings to aid an argument based on a misunderstanding.
Anyone else who might be interested can read my comment history both in this thread and in general if they’re curious to see whether I might be the Andrew Tate style maniacally misogynistic creep liar in wilful denial that you have concluded me to be.
Even if I wanted to, there would be a 50/50 risk of eating your mouth in stead, since that’s the end that’s currently gushing a fountain of nothing but shit 🤦
I’m not a supremacist of any kind.
Viking is in this case a regional colloquialism for Scandinavian as in inhabitant of Scandinavia, not some weird racist bullshit.
According to any definition of that terminally online expression, if either of us is “debatebroing” or however you prefer to mangle the English language, it’s definitely you with your wild assertions based on nothing but strawmen.
Modern action movies are like this, but if you go back into the early 80s, and especially 70s, leading men in action movies had normal bodies. Tbh it kind of went down the tube with Stallone and Arnold.
True! The point I’m trying to get at is that male bodies in drama and comedy are all extremely normal, whereas female bodies in absolutely everything all conform to one particular beauty standard. The male protagonist in any comedy movie is usually extremely normal or even below average while the woman is some absurd standard. There is a very clear difference and the people trying to pretend there isn’t in this thread are either blind or willfully and knowingly lying.
Very few as well. I was addressing the unrealistic male bodies, not dismissing the fact that the same problem exists (arguably to a much worse degree) with regards to women like the OP seems to do.
But OP was very likely referring to the fact that women discuss how female bodies are depicted unrealistically in almost every piece of media. The meme makes fun of women talking about that issue, presenting that men are also depicted unrealistically. That’s the whole punch line.
Yeah I know, that’s why I made sure to point out that I was NOT doing that. No matter the OP, you can and should acknowledge both rather than pretend that they’re mutually exclusive.
Men do not experience body policing in even remotely similar ways to women. If that fact offends you you probably don’t actually understand how misogyny functions.
And both cis men and cis women don’t experience body policing in even remotely similar ways to nonbinary people. Most women don’t need a letter from a psychiatrist costing thousands of dollars to get permission to have a body they can enjoy.
Unfortunately there are too many “open-minded” and “open-minded”-adjacent people who have huge blindspots to their own hypocrisy and philosophical paradoxes. I’ve met so many IRL and net-folk who are lefty “activists” who are huge fucking racists and douchebag misogynists. Extinction Rebellion for example is full of them. I get a bad taste in my mouth whenever I remember certain interactions with them.
I think that might be related to whether someone sees people as good and bad, or as being capable of doing good and bad things.
From how I see it, classifying people as just good and bad is very reductive in that you assume that bad people do bad things with bad intentions and the opposite for good people. That means that if you’re certain that you’re a good person, you don’t need to question your own actions or motives because you can’t do bad.
If you however see people as capable of making good or bad actions with good or bad intentions, you should realize that people you see as good can do bad things and vice versa. That means you should always examine your own motivations and your own decisions to make sure you’re doing the right things for the right reasons.
I personally believe this is why it is so common among certain activist groups to harbor some absolutely atrocious beliefs that seem contrary to what they’re working for.
That makes a lot of sense. I guess it’s always a matter of education in the home and otherwise. Critical thinking and self-analysis seem to be difficult to engender when there’s a culture of accepted vertical hierarchy. I don’t think it’s wrong to say capitalist philosophical leanings create emotionally and philiosophically lazy individuals. The true laziness is always in the opposite direction of the espoused morals of work culture.
It's absolutely the tone. You're not allowed to complain because we women have it worse. That's the message that's being sent across right now.
Men do not experience body policing in even remotely similar ways to women.
That is combative, dismissive, and by the way totally wrong. If the feminists in this thread actually gave a shit about men, they'd be listening, not lecturing. They came here to pick a fight.
No, people in this thread were saying that men and women suffer the same from body image policing. Which isn’t true. Like I said in my initial comment, if that offends you then you don’t understand how misogyny works.
You can read through the thread yourself, there was a massive comment chain already here when I made my initial comment. I’m not going to read and summarize it for you lol.
I think I’ve already more than explained how women’s body image issues are attached to systemic institutional issues that exist across society in my other comments. Feel free to debate against any points I’ve made, but I’m not going to continue reiterating myself.
I came here to respond to anti feminist takes in the thread and to provide a counter to them.
You’re talking like you have some kind of group authority or like this is specifically an anti feminist space that I’m disrupting. I’m allowed to comment here and will if I want to.
It's not an anti-feminist space that you're disrupting. It's also not a feminist space where the topic of discussion is women's problems. It's a neutral space that happened to talk about men's issues right now and y'all came in here with the "BUT WOMEN!!!!" stuff and that really bothers me. Men really don't have any safe spaces to talk about our issues, and as you can see it's also difficult to even bring them up in neutral spaces without being shut down by people like you.
I never shut anyone down. You can talk about men’s issues. This is not a space exclusively for men. This is an open forum, and I am allowed to counter misinformation I read here. I’m an equal member of this board, and misinformation about women here affects me. I have every single right to say something here when I come upon such things. You are free to make a community excluding the voices of women if you so choose, this is not your community and how it works here is not up to you.
Men do not experience body policing in even remotely similar ways to women.
This is you, coming into a thread, belittling and shutting down conversation about men's issues.
You claim you're here to refute certain other posts but I don't see any posts claiming what you say, and even if they do exist you absolutely failed to even acknowledge that men do have similar problems here.
Not "I understand, I just want to contextualize this"
Not "I sympathize, because this is how women feel"
Just "fuck your problems, women have it worse"
So yeah, you have the right to say bullshit, and I have the right to call you out on it.
You’ve been aggressive towards me from your first comment to me. I have only ever responded to you fairly and bluntly. To say that I’m coming here and saying “f*** your problems” is rich given all the rest of the things you’ve said to me. I have never once denied that men have problems, I have stated several times my belief that body positivity and better representation for diverse body types in media would go a long way to helping men and boys with body issues. You haven’t even mentioned one thing you think could help men and boys with body issues.
Acknowledging the reality of misogyny does not diminish the suffering of any individual man. Trying to equate them is wrong however, and its misinformation about the nature of misogyny. All women I know have suffered from misogyny. It makes me very uncomfortable seeing misinformation be spread about women, and I’m not going to stay silent when I see it.
Acknowledging the reality of misogyny does not diminish the suffering of any individual man.
Theoretically yeah, but if you go to every single place where any men talk about any issues they have and start "acknowledging" all over the place it drowns out the original male problems. Especially if you don't even preface your comment with an acknowledgement of the issues men face, of the "lived experience" of men, to borrow a feminist term. You just go straight into "fuck everything y'all are saying, let's talk about women".
It's endemic in the greater social discussion, that's why I'm being so aggressive with pushing back against you. Men don't even have safe spaces to talk about this stuff because they get taken over by alt right misogynists. And whenever we're in a neutral space you people show up like moths to a light. The effect is to silence us.
I have stated several times my belief that body positivity and better representation for diverse body types in media would go a long way to helping men and boys with body issues
Yeah, as a fucking qualifier. As a footnote. It does not sound sincere, and even if it is it's a severe afterthought. And it's still drowned out by the bulk of your message: How Bad Women Have It.
I’m going to respond in short terms because we’re reiterating a lot.
I did not start the discussion surrounding women’s experiences here, other commenters were already talking about it when I first viewed the thread.
I sincerely believe body positivity and better representation in media will be greatly beneficial to body image for men and boys. That goes along with greater tolerance of femininity in men, combating social stigma against men, and addressing power structures like heteronormativity and racism that affect queer men and black men. You have never responded to my proposed solutions, when I am responding to you I have been responding to what you say.
I was responding to misinformation. I have no obligation to counter these narratives with “i know your lives are hard too but can you stop spreading misinformation about women”. I came to this thread, I saw misinformation, I replied to that misinformation. That’s all.
This space is equally for me as it is for you. This is not a men’s space. I am imposing on nobody by being here and commenting.
It's not a men's space but it's a men's topic. So yes, you're imposing.
And the problem is, it's not just you with a one off comment. Most discussions, that's perfectly fine. Come in, refute misinfo, leave. Great. No harm done.
When men in neutral spaces bring up any problems they have, there are HORDES of people coming in wanting to talk about How Bad Women Have It. It downs out the initial conversation. And often there's some of those people who go so far as saying men don't have it bad at all, ever.
And again, I can't emphasize this enough: we don't have safe spaces. This is the only type of place where we can actually talk about this kind of stuff.
So, if you want to not be an asshole, you should take some time to acknowledge the central issue here. Just a couple of sentences. BEFORE being called out about it.
I don’t even know how to respond to your first comment, considering I have done nothing comparable to that. I continue to be misrepresented by you and accused of things I haven’t done. I’m not going to engage with this further.
Nah, men can and do have problems. This post is an example of a man problem. There are people on this post trying to claim that men and women suffer equally in this regard and arguing with people who are pointing out that this is wrong.
Men suffer from toxic body standards and would greatly benefit from body positivity and better representation in media. But men aren’t (as an entire class of people) getting harassed as 10 year olds by 40 year old men making comments about their bodies. Men aren’t (as an entire class of people) having relatives make open comments about the size of their secondary sex characteristics and their bodies in general. As a class you don’t experience this. Some individuals might, I’ve rarely met women who did not experience body policing from their earliest memories, ive rarely met women who have never experienced sexual harassment. The statistics are crystal clear in this regard.
Again, body positivity and better representation for diverse body types would be great for men too. No one is saying otherwise. Even that isn’t enough for women, because institutional misogyny exists at all levels of society and in nearly all people in society. Even well meaning and otherwise progressive people can and are misogynist. Even your family and friends are. Its impossible to simply change one thing. It requires a society wide change in tolerance for bigotry.
That phrase is meaningless lol, what part of my comment are you saying that to? The horrifying things that women experience every single day? Is the lived experiences of women and girls “oppression olympics” to you?
Is the lived experiences of women and girls “oppression olympics” to you?
Yes! Literally yes! You're close to getting it!
"Women have it worse" is participating in oppression Olympics and it's belittling men's problems. I am not disputing the facts of how bad women have it. I don't think anyone in this thread is.
I'm saying it's irrelevant to the conversation at hand, and at BEST it's a distraction.
This isn’t a men’s space. This is a public forum. I’m allowed to respond to anti feminism here and I will. That’s your own problem if you do not like it. And you’re openly using anti feminist nonsense yourself, shocking you didn’t like my initial comment.
I’m not picking a fight. I have been patient and fair in all my responses. I’ve already said this many times, but people were already talking about the way women suffer from body policing when I first viewed this post.
My first comment was that men do not experience body policing the same ways women do. That if you disagree you probably don’t understand misogyny. I never said that men’s issues don’t matter.
That's absolutely what you implied. And it's the result of this line of conversation.
You can't just say "I never said men's issues didn't matter". That's an "I'm not touching you, I'm not touching you" level of technicality. If you're going to bring up women's issues, the very least you can do if you're discussing in good faith is to acknowledge and legitimize the issues that prompted this post in the first place - the unrealistic body standards of men.
By not even mentioning it until called out, you're being dismissive.
Only if you read it as "women's issues don't matter because men also have issues" which is honestly a problematic place for your mind to go. And clearly not the intent.
I am pretty sure that’s the punchline of the meme. “Women say they are unrealistically portraited in media, but look at how men are shown!”. That’s the oppresion olympics you pretend to be against, is it not?
No, it's pointing out that no one ever talks about how men are unrealistically portrayed. It's not saying men have it worse. It's that no one ever mentions men at all.
Have you ever heard of “two for flinching”? That was (I hope) a thing back in my school days, whereby another boy would mime a physical attack, like a punch to the face, or body slam. When you instinctually recoiled, the other boy would delightedly proclaim, “two for flinching,” and punch you hard in the arm, twice. The message was clear.
Men as a class certainly do get policed by boys, girls, and adults about affect, height, weight, voice change, et cetera. I say this not to dismiss or downplay what girls experience, but to say that certainly happens. In fact, I’m certain that it’s two sides of the same coin, and it all needs to go away.
But men aren’t (as an entire class of people) getting harassed as 10 year olds by 40 year old men making comments about their bodies. Men aren’t (as an entire class of people) having relatives make open comments about the size of their secondary sex characteristics and their bodies in general
/*Pokes circumcised dick.
/*Looks at the countless men living their lives recieving no emotional support.
/*Looks at male suicide rates.
/*Looks at male domestic abuse rates.
/*Looks at history of men getting lynched.
/*Looks at what happens when a man wears a bun, has long hair, has piercings, has any sort of distinguishing features.
/*Looks at classic stereotypes of “fat stupid man”
/*Looks at people casually calling men fat.
/*Looks at stats showing men are more then twice as likely to face assault in public, are twice as likely to experience assault causing bodily injuries, are twice as likely recieve major injuries…
Like how you can look at the male suicide rates and just “nah there’s nothing deeper here” is beyond me.
I never said that men do not suffer in any way, I said that women’s body image issues are systemic ones that affect us for all our lives and from nearly everyone in our lives. It happens to every woman. Men’s body image issues are not systemic ones. Body shaming is a thing, but its not a social institution to severely sexually harass and assault men and boys. Almost every woman will experience sexual harassment and assault to some degree. It affects the entire class of women.
So a bunch of men experience the same thing completely independently from each other, and you’re here just assuming there aren’t systemic processes at play? Like do you just think men have some biological affinity for suits and ties? or Jeans and T-shirts? Or it’s just a coincidence or what? Like we live in a world of cause and effect, everything you see in society is a matter of systemic influences.
There are systemic problems for men as well. This conversation has gone largely beyond its scope, that being the way that body image issues for women are unique and particularly abhorrent. Misogyny is a system that also affects the lives of men by devaluing specific activities, clothes, opinions, personality traits etc. that society associates with women and girls. It reinforces misogynistic principles and affects the lives of women too. Men should be allowed to dress how they want to (so should women), work what jobs they want to, present themselves however they want to, and so on. All those things also affect women and the majority of them are based around discrimination towards women. “Pink is girly and therefore boys shouldn’t like pink” only functions if you think that being girly is bad or worse or lesser.
But there’s lots of systemic issues in society. Misogyny affects the entire class of women directly and the entire class of men indirectly. There are other systems that devalue men such the prison industrial complex, the military industrial complex, rape culture that discourages male victims from coming forward, and the wage slavery of late stage capitalism. Those things also affect women. And intersectional feminism examines the way that those systems interact and build upon one another. Misogyny is one of the most abhorrent things man has ever created, and me and all my friends live with and struggle against misogyny every single day. I think the scale of the problem is hard to understand if you don’t talk to a lot of women about their struggles. And when we do speak up more often than not we’re barely acknowledged at all, look at the backlash to misogyny in video games or the backlash to the epidemic of rape on college campuses. Those problems have never adequately been addressed in any capacity. When its women’s issues a quarter of society listens and cares enough to acknowledge the problems we face, half of society is ambivalent and does not react at all, and the remaining quarter actively believe in misogyny.
A hypothetical system of discrimination against directly and specifically men. I do not agree that this system exists. Our ruling class is patriarchal and men hold significantly disproportionate amounts of power in society. There is no system of discrimination that affects all men as a class. There exists biases and discrimination against men, but nothing that does so using the structure of a system and through institutional power.
What would you call an individual's feeling of hatred of or superiority to women? That's the popular definition of misogyny, not the systemic issues. Usually the system itself is called the patriarchy.
Likewise, an individual's feelings of hatred or superiority to men is popularly called misandry, which absolutely exists. I don't think there's any such thing as a "matriarchy" systemically oppressing men anywhere in the world.
Youre fundamentally misunderstanding what a power structure is. It’s not merely a group of individuals who are misogynistic (that is commiting acts of: violence against women, discriminating against women, subjugation women, and perpetuating hatred and prejudice against women) its a pervasive continuous problem across all levels of society and perpetuated by all functions of society. Misogyny exists so universally in our society that every single woman experiences it throughout their lives beginning as very young children. Our own parents teach us misogyny, our education system reinforces misogyny, our media shows us misogyny and so on. There’s no woman who doesn’t experience it, it affects all women as a class.
No such system exists that discriminates against men as a class.
I know, I get that, I'm asking about terminology. So what would you call a single person who hates women? Not the power structure, just that one person.
A misogynist, assuming you mean someone who is reinforcing or using the power structure of misogyny. To call it hatred is reductive, someone can be misogynistic and not think of themselves as a misogynist. They can have misogynistic opinions, commit misogynistic acts, or spread misogynistic misinformation without seeing themselves as someone who hates women.
Well that's a problem then, because you're using the same term to refer to two different but related things. Well, it becomes a problem when you consider misandry. Sure, there's no systemic oppression of men (except collateral damage from the patriarchy). But there are absolutely individuals and groups of individuals who hate or are dismissive of men. We need a word for that.
I think the popular definitions here are more useful than yours, because it prevents misunderstandings when someone says something like "misandry is a thing that exists". They're not saying it exists in a systemic, structural way. Just that there are individuals who feel like that.
I never said the word wasn’t a real word, I’m saying that in the context of systemic discrimination against men there is no such system of misandry. That it is not true that body policing and control are not equal issues for men and for women. The thing I’ve been talking about the entire time.
Nouns can be applied in 2 different ways dependent on context, English works just fine that way. When we talk about misogyny in intersectional feminist discourse we are talking about the power structure of hatred and violence against women.
There exists biases and discrimination against men, but nothing that does so using the structure of a system and through institutional power.
So you wouldn’t actually consider societal pressures against men as misandry? You wouldn’t consider the structures that force men to disregard their own emotions to take on provider roles as misandry. You don’t see men commiting sucide at 3 times the rate of women significant enough of a qualifier? You don’t see how influences like these connect back to men having to be “hard”. You don’t see how men are used and disregarded by society? Like I am literally missing a piece of my body, and it’s just socially accepted.
Like men aren’t just in power, men are pushed towards power.
And… I just realized you acknowledge toxic masculinity. So toxic masculinity does effect all men, on societial and institutional levels, which fits your definition of misandry.
[…] biases and discrimination against men […] using the structure of a system and through institutional power.
Its not that I don’t consider it to be misandry its that its not systemic against men as a class. It is not a power structure. There is no woman ruling class enforcing hatred and discrimination against men across all levels of society. Gender roles are a big part of misogyny, specifically the relegation of women to a breeding and mating class that must care for and dedicate themselves to men who leave the home for work every day. Just because it’s misogynistic doesn’t mean it doesn’t have negative effects for men too, it’s because it affects women as a class that it is different. Its because its systemic. Which is the difference between misogyny and forms of non systemic violence and discrimination.
I don’t understand how you could think that being “pushed into power” could somehow be indicative of a power structure oppressing men as a class across society. That’s a key part of it, the ruling class the most powerful people in society are patriarchal men.
Toxic masculinity is a system that benefits the ruling class of men, who are misogynistic and homophobic and weaponize those structures against men perceived to be weak or effeminate or girly. Not all men suffer due to toxic masculinity, many benefit from it. Toxic masculinity enables men to assault women physically and sexually by promoting anger and lack of responsibility for the actions of men. Toxic masculinity promotes the concept of women as subservient to men who are naturally aggressive and ‘manly’. Toxic masculinity does not affect men as a class, though it is related to several power structures in society.
Its not that I don’t consider it to be misandry its that its not systemic against men as a class. It is not a power structure
But… toxic toxic masculinity is systemic against men as a class, and it does operate on the level of societial and institutional pressures. That fits the critia for a power structure.
And 99% of men are not “the ruling class”, so I just don’t see why you would even make that generalization. Especially when the vast majority of issues we talk about are dependent on societial norms, not institutional structures.
Is that the crux of your argument? Until women hold the balance of leadership roles systemic misandry isn’t a thing?
Well ideally misandry would never be allowed to exist even in a post patriarchal society. But it doesn’t exist now, it is hypothetical.
The ruling class is only men, it is exclusive to men, the ruling class holds disproportionate power in society. The ruling class is the principle group that benefits from power structures, like misogyny racism and homophobia. The ruling class is not disadvantaged as a class in any way, they are the apex of social economic and political power. They have supported institutions like slavery and patriarchy as means of reinforcing their power by stratifing society to benefit themselves. The ruling class has no power structure targeting men as a class.
Toxic masculinity largely functions by excusing the violence caused by men against women and minorities. It does not exist as a system that commits acts of violence and discrimination against men as a class. It has a side effect of discouraging men from being things that are deemed effeminate, like emotional intelligence and empathy. Which is absolutely a real problem that is important to talk about. It promotes men as being free from the consequences of comitting acts of violence against women and minorities. It does have side effects for men, but it exists as a means for men to hurt those other groups and not be held accountable for it. Rape culture is a significant part of toxic masculinity. And the ruling class benefits the most from this.
I’m getting tired of reiterating the same points to the same inquiries though, so please feel free to read what I’ve already said if you’re curious how I think.
I’m really disappointed in your inability to confront your own biases. You set definitions, I meet them, and then you just move the goal posts.
How you call Bob at the hardware store “the ruling class” is BEYOND me. 99% of men don’t have any sort of ruling authority. So you’ve created a term that holds men to a level of responsibility they don’t have, and then you use that to disqualify the actuality of misandry in society… Fuuuck…
Thank you for taking the time to lay out your biases for me. You’ve really helped me breakdown this shit, and I appreciate that. Sorry for any anxiety I’ve given you, but seriously… you need to expand your perspective outside of feminist rhetoric.
I never called Bob at the hardware store ruling class 🙃 but the ruling class is patriarchal and composed of men. The ruling class benefits from men being treated as superior to women. They are the apex of social power structures. There is no social power structure that disadvantages specifically them, there is no social power structure against men as a class.
You still don’t understand what misogyny is or how it is different from any social pressure against men. I’m sorry guy, you and everyone man you know did not get sexually harassed by men on the street when you were 12. Every woman experiences misogyny. Every woman suffers misogynistic violence. It affects all of us as a class of people at every level across society. Time for you to ask yourself what is preventing you from listening to the experiences of women who are suffering differently from you. I have expressed concern for men’s issues throughout my comments, just because there is no power structure creating those issues systemically and through institutions does not mean that they’re not important. Its false equivalence over and over again.
It’s not my job to convince you of the way women are suffering and how that suffering is condoned and perpetuated by society. It’s your job to educate yourself on the way the marginalized suffer. With that said, I’m done answering questions and engaging with you. I’ve more than explained intersectionality to you already.
I never called Bob at the hardware store ruling class 🙃 but the ruling class is patriarchal and composed of men.
Okay… So previously in our discussion you dismissed systemic misandry, because “it’s not a power structure”.
If Bob isn’t considered apart of the ruling class, then the oppression of Bob, and other men by the ruling class IS a power structure, and fits your definition of systemic misandry.
And by all means you don’t have to engage with me. The only thing I’m really expecting you to teach me is the biases in your rhetoric, so no pressure.
Nah like… I get what you’re saying, you just don’t seem to want to acknowledge the obvious bias and contradictions.
Basically from what you’re saying is the ONLY way you’d acknowledge systemic misandry is if women were in charge… But the fucking gender of the person imposing themselves is irrelevant to the status of victimization. Misandry is about persecution of men, not about who’s persecuting, and when you see systemic instances of misandry, how do you not acknowledge that? How do you just ignore your own biases?
There are no systemic instances of misandry, because the ruling class is not discriminated against in any way and they are men. Men suffer, but not from an institution that commits acts of violence and discrimination against men as a class. Last 3 words are key there.
Dear confused men (hashtag: not all men): You have lots of problems. The vast majority are not caused by women. One of your problems is trying to blame us for many of the harmful things you do to yourselves, or that patriarchy/toxic masculinity does to you. Another problem is loathing it when women try to help you by explaining this to you but it isn’t what you want to hear bc it isn’t stroking your ego (or other bits). So there really isn’t much else to be done - your problems are yours to solve, and all we can do is try some damage control for ourselves while you guys bang your heads against the floor.
Sincerely - Feminists, who care about men, but not to the point of our own destruction any longer.
One of your problems is trying to blame us for many of the harmful things you do to yourselves, or that patriarchy/toxic masculinity does to you.
Ummm… First of all men are not a collective, but aside from that…
Women are complicit in toxic masculinity, and patriarchy, you are aware of that right? Like women have the same ingrained societal baises.
It drives me insane that the academics that created the concept of toxic masculinity would be so friggen sexist in their connotations. That seems like a basic ethical consideration for someone studing gender, but apparently not!
(Proceeds to watch the subject bang his head repeatedly, injuring himself with the very same arguments he thinks he is making. Pointing out failure to read comprehensively might help, but more likely only increase the intensity by which he injures himself. It is a sad sight, one of many. She must move on.)
Feminists are perfectly capable of recognising toxic femininity and toxic androgyny. The difference between those and toxic masculinity is that toxic femininity encourages violence against women and enbies, toxic androgyny encourages violence against enbies, and toxic masculinity encourages violence against everyone. Violence against everyone is a big deal, maybe a bigger deal than lateral violence. I personally am less able to withstand lateral violence than indiscriminate violence, so I personally have more trouble with toxic femininity. But I understand why some have more of a problem with toxic masculinity.
Thanks for pointing this out. I’m trans and I got sexually harassed for being asexual when I was presenting as a man. Ain’t never happened as a woman. On the other hand, the people who harassed me in the first place were men. It was horrible, but it wasn’t gender warfare, it was just the patriarchy being horrible for men. As a woman, there’s no pressure to enjoy sex. Instead, you’re expected to marry a man you aren’t sexually attracted to and have his kids. It’s a whole different kind of awful, and both kinds of awful are caused by the heteropatriarchy.
The meme is belittling feminism and/or women’s issues. If you don’t want to start a discussion, do not post provocative memes. Otherwise live with the discussion that will ensue.
So you feel like whenever people talk about how there are unrealistic body standards for women they also have to mention and talk about unrealistic body standards for men.
But at the same time you complain about feminists allegedly talking about feminist issues in discussions about men’s issues.
I feel like something doesn’t sound right with that logic…
So you feel like whenever people talk about how there are unrealistic body standards for women they also have to mention and talk about unrealistic body standards for men.
Sigh
Me: "no one ever talks about pancakes, they literally always talk about waffles."
You: "so you're saying that every single time someone mentions pancakes they should also be required to mention waffles?"
Me: "actually no, that's not at all what I'm saying, not even close, what the fuck"
Come on, you're not that stupid. This is like page 1 of the Big Book of Stupid Internet Argument Tactics.
The standard of “very good body” is higher for women, sure, but the standard of “good enough body” for women is much, much lower than the one for men.
The first one is useful if you want to be an actor or model, the second if you want to find a partner for life. Guess which of the two is more relevant for the average person.
I mean, in a relationship, what else do you need a body for? The main thing that keeps two people interested in each other is the personality, as long as the bodies are “good enough” to sexually stimulate your partner there’s not much more they’re needed for. Hell, for some that isn’t even a requirement.
But it doesn’t make sense to complain about women supposedly having higher standards when men and women seem to have, on average, different expectations towards a relationship? I would rather be alone than being with a person who just finds my body good enough. For many men this seems to be different.
I always thought the “different expectations” prejudice about relationships was more about average men wanting a “body to fuck” that’s also a pleasant person and average women wanting a pleasant person that’s also a “body to fuck” (you know, the old adage about push-up bras and lies).
I don’t know if it’s also about how much is your body attractive to your partner, to me it seems like an unnecessary requirement and kind of “objectifying yourself”. Like, if a person is in love with your personality and finds your body simply “attractive”, is that not good enough for a relationship to you? That situation is like hitting a jackpot for most men I know.
It is objectifying towards yourself. And it stems from the fact that in media and our society in general women are valued by their looks. There are very few examples for likeable female characters, for example, who aren’t also beautiful and young. It’s a complex issues and that’s why it is especially questionable to produce such a meme.
Then why would you do that? If you recognize it’s not right to expect that, why would you specifically want a partner that absolutely loves your body?
There are very few examples for likeable female characters, for example, who aren’t also beautiful and young.
Because, as we’ve been saying, most characters (whether males or females) in fiction are beautiful. There’s also very few examples of likeable male characters that aren’t also beautiful.
You might have a point with the age but I’d attribute that to historical Hollywood stars being mostly male, as more popular actresses get old we’ll definitely see more likeable old women.
You would do that because that’s how you are socialised as a woman growing up. Your value is your youth and how beautiful you are. That’s it.
It is not easy to just rid yourself from socialising. As a man this can be hard to get when it’s about beauty standards because beauty standards imposed onto men are not even close as restrictive as those imposed onto women.
There are many examples for unattractive, funny looking, old, chubby, etc. male characters in media. For female characters that’s the exception.
I don’t know, I really don’t get the reasoning. I can understand being conditioned so that your subconscious gives a higher importance to your body than what it should be, and that can be hard to completely get rid of, but you consciously typed “I would rather be alone than being with a person who just finds my body good enough”. That doesn’t seem like something egodystonic you’re actively trying to fight.
And as for representation in media, are all those funny looking/chubby characters actual, three-dimensional characters or are they just the comic relief whose main point of their personality is “he’s a nerd/fat/ugly”? Because for fat kids that’s exactly the opposite of body positivity, and the only reason why there’s so many males and little females in that trope is because making fun of a woman for her appearance is generally something frowned upon (meanwhile for men it’s totally ok, at least until recently)
Because you said it’s objectifying yourself? And that’s not a good thing? And saying you’re not that interested in romance is very different from “I would rather be alone than being with a person who just finds my body good enough“. That means you’re interested, as long as the other person finds your body very attractive.
Again, define “not attractive”. Because ugly and fat characters are almost always made fun of. If “not ugly, but not gorgeous” characters count as “not attractive” I can find a lot of female ones too.
I feel like you really try to twist what my point is or I am not good at explaining it in English. When you have been told your whole life that all you have as value is how physically attractive you are, the way you approach relationships is different.
While a man perhaps can still believe the other person likes them, even though they only find their body ok or good enough, for many women this is much harder. That has a lot of consequences for our society, including the difference in behaviour in online dating apps, why women are less likely to buy sex, dead bedrooms, etc.
It’s just a matter of what feels worse for me. And for me it feels much worse to be with a man who settled for me, than to be single.
Regarding representation in media, I won’t argue with someone who seriously tries to say female characters have a diverse representation just as male characters. That’s frankly a ridiculous take. Arguing with someone who seems to live in a different reality doesn’t make sense.
It’s just a matter of what feels worse for me. And for me it feels much worse to be with a man who settled for me, than to be single.
I’m not talking about “settling for”, I’m talking about someone loving you for your personality and not really caring too much about how attractive you are. Isn’t knowing your partner loves you for who you are and not for how you look like a better situation? Again, relationships are something that’s ideally supposed to last for decades, a beautiful body isn’t.
Regarding representation in media, I won’t argue with someone who seriously tries to say female characters have a diverse representation just as male characters. That’s frankly a ridiculous take. Arguing with someone who seems to live in a different reality doesn’t make sense.
There’s a lot of beautiful men and women in media, and there’s a lot of average-looking men and women in media. I already explained why I think there’s way more “ugly” males than females but you’re saying it isn’t true because there’s plenty of male characters that “aren’t attractive” and aren’t made fun of, so I asked for your definition of “not attractive”, as if you mean definitely-less-than-average I really can’t think of many.
Your body affects your life in many more ways when you’re a woman. My body affects my employment, it affects me whenever I go anywhere in public, it affects my relationships with friends with family and with coworkers. It’s open season to make comments about my body, regardless of if I’ve got a “very good body” or not. Harassment of women is the norm. It’s not attached to perceived attractiveness, at least not in that only those deemed very attractive suffer sexual harassment and assault. We all suffer in this, and over a lifetime starting as a literal child it totally dehumanizes you. Being lesser is a woman’s place, because all society will ever focus on is our bodies and how they relate to men. We don’t even get to be people, just game pieces surrounding men only relevant in whatever use we have to them. Misogyny is a cornerstone of our society itself. It’s baked into our politics, our tradition, our history, our legal system, our families, It’s everywhere. And thats why comparing the way men and women experience body standards and policing doesn’t work. The scale isn’t even close to the same, nor is the severity.
Being lesser is a woman’s place, because all society will ever focus on is our bodies and how they relate to men. We don’t even get to be people, just game pieces surrounding men only relevant in whatever use we have to them.
Ok, now this is just plain overdramatizing. We’re not in the 19th century anymore, on paper women have every right men have in the whole first world, plenty of corporations are built with the main purpose of providing pleasant experiences to women and a lot of women have been in very high positions of power. Women ARE people just as much as men according to the huge majority of people, and those who don’t think so are usually unlikeable by men and women alike.
Misogyny is very much an issue in the modern society because its roots were in misogyny and you don’t change thousands of years in a century, but we’re moving very fast. I can get that your physical appearance can make a difference in whether you get hired in some companies (and if it does, you probably dodged a bullet), but to say that in modern society women “don’t get to be people” is insulting to all the progress humanity has done.
I’ve lived it myself, listen to women and read the studies and surveys on these things. On paper means nothing, especially when women are unequal in ways the law does not even account for. In my hometown nearly half of all women have been sexually assaulted. I rarely meet a woman who hasn’t experienced any sexual harassment or assault, many experience it before they’re even adults. Girls and women are still suffering, in many ways things have barely changed at all. Yes we can work jobs now, yes we can vote. But even people who think it’s wrong continue to perpetuate misogyny anyway, misogyny exists everywhere in everyone across society. We all get indoctrinated as children into it, and it takes a lot to deconstruct all the propaganda we’re fed.
Society has made some progress, but honestly not very much. Women don’t even have human rights in the US. In terms of culture, in terms of actual people and their actual beliefs, we have actually changed very little in the last 50 years. People have always hated women and that has not changed as much as you seem to think it has. Again, I’d encourage you to listen to the stories of women when they talk about the way society continues to discriminate against them. I’d encourage you to frequent women’s forums online and read what we talk about and what horrifying realities we live in.
As a woman and my friend group being mostly women anything that affects women I hear about. I have listened plenty of times to men talking about the problems they face. I’m aware of the challenges imposed on men by society, many of which are directly related to and affected by misogyny and toxic masculinity. I’m not a sociology researcher by any means, I see studies I come across and listen to people talk about problems they face. I have my own personal experiences with men and those of my friends family and partners past and present.
I don’t take issue with discussion of men’s issues, thats objectively good. It does not have to be to the dismissal of misogyny though.
As a woman and my friend group being mostly women anything that affects women I hear about. I have listened plenty of times to men talking about the problems they face.
Could you put a number on it? Like… for every 10 studies/articles on women’s issues you read, how many men’s issues studies would you be reading? 10 to 10? 10 to 5? 10 to 2?
Or let’s say you’ve spent idk… 200 hours looking into women’s issues, talking to women, etc… How many hours have you listened to men, or researched their issues? 200:200, 200:100, 200:50? (not counting debates) Your best ballpark.
I cannot adequately answer that question, and its complicated by many studies I’ve read being surveys of both men and women. I also am a woman, so I have my own first hand experiences of misogyny.
I’m subscribed to forums that are about things that affect both men and women, but as I have less to contribute in the way of advice and assistance for men I do not subscribe specifically to any of them. Doesn’t mean I don’t see any of their content however.
I am aware of what issues affect men. I am aware of social pressures on men. I am also aware of the ways that men as a class have privilege and how they both benefit from and suffer because of misogyny.
You are in quite a position to be saying that I need a deeper perspective on gender issues.
Yes the one article about that. And yeah men suffer things too, but they do not as a class suffer from a power structure across all levels of society. 🙃 Misogyny and the ways toxic masculinity sometimes disadvantages men are not the same things. I’m not gonna reiterate it again lol. You can re-read my other comments.
Men literally can’t suffer from a power structure by your definition of those terms. It’s not that men don’t experience oppression from power structures, it’s that your definition of power structures is oppression by a “ruling class”, and you see men as that “ruling class”, so by your definition they can’t be oppressed by their own power structure. It has nothing to do with men as individuals.
THIS is why you need to expand your perspective. That line of reasoning is complete mental gymnastics. It’s friggen hilarious how feminists justify their own bigiotry, and reinforce the perceptives they claim cause so much harm.
Like you may not believe it’s moral, but your fundamental perspective is “men are in charge”. I find it like… interesting as fuck that this is what feminism has looped back to. Shit like this makes me think that as a species we are really just too petty or too stupid to get past our own biases.
Yes, you’re correct. Men do not suffer from a power structure. There is no society where a ruling class of women are enforcing a powr structure of hatred and prejudice against men.
Except toxic masculinity shows that there are misandrist power structures that men suffer from, which means your definition of power structures isn’t encompassing.
You are more concerned about who you see as in charge then the actual victimization, which ironically is toxic masculinity.
No, the ruling class is composed of white heterosexual cisgender men and there are no power structures that discriminate against or commit acts of violence against them on any of those bases. There are no systems of class wide discrimination against white people, heterosexual people, cisgender people, or men.
The actual victimization is against the marginalized, who suffer from systemic and institutional violence perpetuated by power structures. Youre still having a hard time with the concept of systems of power and their intersections. Plenty of men suffer consequences of misogyny, like toxic masculinity, and with other systems of power like the military industrial complex, the prison industrial complex, wage slavery under late stage capitalism, discrimination and prejudice against homelessness, and classism. But there is no power structure discriminating against men as a class. It simply does not exist, the ruling class of men who hold power in our society would not allow themselves to be discriminated against in any way. So men as a class are not discriminated against by a power structure.
Goal post moving again. So now it’s not enough to show there’s systemic oppression of men?
What do I need to prove? Lay it out. Because I’ve shown you’re wrong on every level, I’ve shown you the contradictions, I’ve shown evidence of systemic misandry, and now you’re deflecting to complaining about cisgender white people?! Like duuude I don’t think you’re genuine. You’re choosing to stick your head in the sand.
You can’t prove it because the ruling class is composed of men who would not allow themselves to be discriminated against. There is no systemic discrimination of the class of men. Some men suffer systemic discrimination from power structures, but there is no system of violence and discrimination against men as a class.
As a class. Read it again. Nice and slow, as a class. All women suffer from misogyny, every single one. There is no equivalent thing that all men suffer from. Because the ruling class is composed of men who would not allow themselves to be discriminated against. So there is no system of discrimination against the class of men.
You’re not understanding what this conversation is even about lol 🙄
In terms of culture, in terms of actual people and their actual beliefs, we have actually changed very little in the last 50 years.
We’ve changed “very little” since the time of these ads? When there were still places in Europe where women couldn’t vote? When marry-yor-rapist laws were still common? In those years where we had the first female UK prime minister, the first female German chancellor, the first female US vice president and so on? Come on.
Sexual harassment is very much a problem in modern society, and way too many misogynists still exist, but to say that women are still “not people” and that we’re not moving forward in recent years is definitely an exaggeration. Women from 50 years ago probably wouldn’t believe it if you told them all the progress we’ve made in the meantime.
The dominant structure of the patriarchy has never changed. Women still earn less, disproportionately suffer sexual and physical violence, still face constant policing of our bodies, still face patriarchal attitudes in men and our friends and our families, were still expected to have children and marry men and we face prejudice and discrimination if we are unwed and have no children. This entire conversation has been principally about American power structures, but similar ones exist around the world. Women can’t even get safe health care in America. Women are legally not afforded the same rights as men in America, not that the legal system is the sole metric by which we measure inequality. We are still expected to be homemakers, still face sexual harassment in our homes in our workplaces in education and from our friends. We still get assaulted by men at staggeringly under reported rates. The ruling class is almost entirely men. The ruling class is almost entirely patriarchal. Rapists still barely suffer any punishment for their crimes, not even 10% of rapists ever see any kind of consequences for their actions.
You are vastly overestimating how much society has changed. 50 years ago we had no right to safe health care, and once again today we don’t. 50 years ago our mother’s were being beaten and sexually assaulted by their partners at sickening rates, and still we are today. 50 years ago women were paid less than men, and so we are today. I could go on. Nominally blatant hatred towards women is less tolerable in today’s media, but its still tolerated and present in a lot of it. Our actual lives, our actual experiences, our suffering at the hands of misogyny has changed very little from 50 years ago. I mentioned in another comment, but I briefly worked with kids at a youth center. And I can say with certainty that the trend isn’t even better with their generation. Systemic change was always required to solve systemic issues, and we have never even come close to systemic change with regards to misogyny. That would mean deconstructing one of the cornerstones of American society and culture, and you’ve seen how any attacks on American society or culture are perceived. Our concerns are always dismissed and our proposal for change always falls on deaf ears by those who see no problem with our suffering.
So just because crimes against women still occur we haven’t improved at all? It’s not an improvement until there is absolutely zero crimes being committed against women?
Again, you can’t expect that to happen in a century. Crimes against women have been taken much more seriously in recent years, hell, some of them weren’t even considered crimes 50 years ago. Prejudices and patriarchal attitude has also been getting less and less intense, as people, both male and female, realized they’re generally harmful to everyone. Things have gotten better, are getting better and hopefully will get even better as more and more “relics of the past” leave this world and newer generations take over.
When women are actively losing rights i don’t see how you could possibly think that inequality against women is getting better. You’re just dismissing change by saying women must continue to suffer the effects of misogyny until some undetermined point in the future when all will naturally resolve itself. Misogyny has existed in many forms throughout all of human history. Now is the time when women are able to best advocate for themselves. We are not equal and it has only improved in terms of the social acceptability of voicing outright hatred towards women. This is a good thing, and I’m not saying it isn’t. It is not enough. It is nowhere near enough. Women are so burdened by misogyny that we can never be equal unless we are actively counteracting misogyny wherever it exists.
The reality is inequality against women has not improved nearly as much as you seem to think. I am a woman, I have first hand experience of it. If you see the improvement of inequality against women as a good then I have no idea why were having this conversation. You should be able to completely understand the way women suffer systemic institutional violence and discrimination in a way that men as a class do not. We can never even scratch the surface of doing something about it if every time we talk about it we’re told that we are exaggerating and lying, or worse that we’re attacking men.
Misogyny which is a systemic issue requires systemic solutions. Simply making it socially unacceptable to outright advocate explicit violence and hatred against women does not address the many other ways that women suffer from misogyny. But this is all moot, as we don’t even legally have the same rights as of now. So it doesn’t matter, women are objectively suffering because of misogyny from even the state and it’s violence in much the same ways we are in the 1970s. In many ways today’s landscape looks even bleaker than it did then, with states and politicians actively taking away more women’s rights.
What rights are you losing? I can only think of the whole abortion issue in the US and it’s pretty clear people are already sick and tired of it and it’s not going to last for long, unless they pull some shenanigans. In the meantime I feel very bad for women who saw or will see denied an abortion request as that’s something that can straight-up ruin your life, but unfortunately as long as America is so reliant on religion you can’t expect to see decisions that make sense. Again, time will definitely help as newer generations are overwhelmingly irreligious and in support of abortion.
And no, I’m not dismissing change. Actually we haven’t even talked about change at all. The main focus of this discussion has been more of an oppression olympics kind of one. So in case I missed it, what is your suggestion for an actual, systemic solution that will solve sexism? Because I really can’t think of one that isn’t “teach kids not to be sexist and hope it trickles down as time goes on”.
I mean the right to bodily autonomy and access to safe health care has been taken away for women. Its already been a year, I dont know how you can consider that not lasting long. There’s an entire party of politicians in America and in a lot of other closely related countries that is openly against the rights of women. In Texas and Florida there are pushes to have women’s rights to custody and divorce changed. By the parties currently ruling those states. But in any case, what’s written in law and what happens are not the same and discrimination against women exists even in ways the law says are illegal.
Theres the anti feminist “oppression olympics” concept again. A systemic solution to misogyny would be to actively undo the systemic inequalities against women. Make misogyny unacceptable at any level of society, someone who is misogynistic should not be allowed to exist socially in any context whatsoever. It should be met with active resistance in every place it exists. Women should be paid equally, and the government should be interfering in business hiring practices and wage disputes to ensure that women are at all levels being paid equally. Meritocracy isn’t real, and women should be afforded equal political and social power in all contexts. That means the dissolution of all forms of patriarchal propaganda, the dissolution of the institution of the nuclear family, the dissolution of sex based discrimination in all forms of education housing and employment, a completely rebuilt justice system that appropriately investigates every single incidence of sexual harassment sexual assault and rape and ensures that punishment is extremely severe.
And even that wouldn’t totally resolve it in all its forms, since capital is the primary vehicle for the ruling class to use power. Capitalism upholds patriarchy, and income inequality would need to be addressed to make women equal in society.
Make misogyny unacceptable at any level of society, someone who is misogynistic should not be allowed to exist socially in any context whatsoever. It should be met with active resistance in every place it exists.
Uh, it is unacceptable and met with resistance in the great majority of the first world? We can’t really do any more than that, you want a law to be able to legally murder someone on the basis of a misogynistic affirmation?
Women should be paid equally, and the government should be interfering in business hiring practices and wage disputes to ensure that women are at all levels being paid equally. Meritocracy isn’t real, and women should be afforded equal political and social power in all contexts.
Great, how do you enforce that when not even all white men are paid equally? People are always going to have biases. We can make laws for public employment and impose ranges for private ones, but there’s never going to be a list exhaustive enough so that every person doing a job is retributed the same way.
That means the dissolution of all forms of patriarchal propaganda, the dissolution of the institution of the nuclear family, the dissolution of sex based discrimination in all forms of education housing and employment
And this is what is constantly trying to be done (well, except in half of post-2016 USA but that’s a different issue). Nuclear family is in an “involuntary” constant decline with the majority group of people being “married without children” in a 2000 statistic. I don’t really remember hearing about any blatantly patriarchal propaganda or systemic sex-based discriminations in education, housing or employment in recent times and I’m pretty sure the little that still does exist is in a shrinking minority, feel free to prove me wrong.
a completely rebuilt justice system that appropriately investigates every single incidence of sexual harassment sexual assault and rape and ensures that punishment is extremely severe.
This is, supposedly, what’s in place now, but the fact that it isn’t working doesn’t mean it’s intentional. In general, sexual crimes are among the least likely to leave physical, indisputable proof, and it is therefore very hard for judges to prosecute them effectively. The fact that yes, the justice system is a very old institution and has definitely bias behind it is undeniable, but while I hope it gets “rebuilt” as well, I don’t think it’s going to change much (unless you fill it with people that have a bias towards males, which would just be changing the target of the problem).
I legit do not have the time to reiterate all my arguments, so feel free to read my other comments. I’m anticapitalist and absolutely believe that all people can and should be paid equally. At this point you’re just defending the existence of power structures. Even men who are found guilty of assault, very few are ever even investigated, are usually given a slap on the wrist and sent back on their way. We’ve had several social movements about this exact thing in just the last couple years. The problem continues to exist, the judicial system protects rapists and does not investigate sexual crimes against women in any adequate fashion.
Feminism: “Men don’t experience body policing like women do!”
But… what about body positivity…
This is the shit that confused me about people pushing vaccinations. It’s all “body rights body rights body rights” until someone gets recognition you don’t like.
“Oh but traditionally women have been… etc”
Oh so now we care about traditions? Now suddenly we’re pushing social norms? Now conveniently personal rights, and freedoms don’t matter?
Do you know why feminists suck? It’s because they aren’t actually egalitarian. And worse, they are blinded by their own friggen biases.
I’ve watched feminists chop a fucking guy down, and gaslight him that “it sounds like he hates women” for talking about not getting emotional support in relationships. Dude then got muted. Women calling men trash though? “Ohhh you should know they’re not talking about you. A good man wouldn’t take offense to this”.
Fuck, I’m nonbinary, I date a lot of other nonbinaries. I’ve literally got in arguments with nonbinary feminists sitting there telling me “You have to understand society sees you as a white man”.
Shit is fucked. Just completely fucked.
I am fucking happy to see men getting recognition instead of seeing everything blamed on toxic masculinity.
Okay, so firstly I never said that body positivity and diverse representation of body types didn’t also need to take into account body image standards for men. I was responding to people in the comments of this post who were essentially saying “body image issues for men” and “body image issues for women” are the same in terms of how they affect men and women respectively. Which isn’t true, and we can easily see why when discussing the systemic issue of misogyny and the way women have their bodies policed throughout their entire lives and by their family friends coworkers peers and society at large including all forms of media. Body image issues for women are related to societal misogyny, and affected by continuous sexual harassment and assault starting when we are children. It happens everywhere, including from your own family.
This continues to this day. A couple years ago I volunteered at a youth group, and can confirm with certainty that the next generation of girls and women are suffering exactly the same. Misogyny is pervasive and girls and women are suffering much the same today as they were 50 years ago, there is just a (somewhat) larger push today to do something about it. Unfortunately there is a nearly equally large push to reinforce misogyny as an institution.
How you’ve been dismissed and told that society “sees you” as a white man is wrong and your experience is unique and should be acknowledged. You maybe have suffered from transphobia, queerphobia, and discrimination and prejudice towards nonbinary people. You should be able to understand the difference in the way discrimination towards men and nonbinary people functions. In that non-binary people come up against constant barriers across all levels of society, that is to say they face systemic institutional discrimination. Much the same, misogyny is not merely one person who hates women. Misogyny is a society that discriminates against women, it is media that perpetuates discrimination against women, it is education and social reinforcement of discrimination against women. Its systemic, its present at all levels and points of society. You have to actively work against it to counteract all the misogynistic propaganda you’re fed.
Men deserve body liberation too, I never said otherwise. But people in this comment thread were saying that body image issues with representation in media are the same for men and women. And that simply isn’t true.
Which isn’t true, and we can easily see why when discussing the systemic issue of misogyny and the way women have their bodies policed throughout their entire lives and by their family friends coworkers peers and society at large including all forms of media. Body image issues for women are related to societal misogyny, and affected by continuous sexual harassment and assault starting when we are children. It happens everywhere, including from your own family.
I have a question! Why is it that when men police men it’s toxic masculinity, but when women police women it’s misogyny?
Anyways I disagree with your entire premise basically because of toxic masculinity. Men are degraded into the ground to the point that they aren’t even willing to self express. If you look at society you’ll see women have countless different, more expressive options for expressing themselves. Yes they recieve criticism, they also recieve support.
Like all I did was paint my nails, and wear bright colours, and yesterday I got called fruity 😂
Like have you ever had to worry that painting your nails could cost you your job?
When men police men, they reinforce body images that appeal to the male gaze, I.e. toxic masculinity. When women police women, they reinforce body images that appeal to the male gaze, I.e. misogyny.
Im not sure what you’re referring to with the men policing men and women policing women bit. Misogyny is perpetuated by everyone, not exclusively women.
And you’re right the problems of toxic masculinity are important to talk about, a lot of those problems are themselves indirectly related to misogyny. “Painting your nails is girly and therefore wrong” only works if we presuppose that being girly is lesser and wrong. Theres much more to toxic masculinity than just that of course, but a lot reinforces misogyny or is built upon it.
“Painting your nails is girly and therefore wrong” only works if we presuppose that being girly is lesser and wrong.
Not really. It’s also a challenge to the status quo, and people don’t like that in general. By that reasoning, cutting your hair short should’ve been seen as “manly, better and right”, but women who did that were initially frowned upon. Because it’s challenging the status quo, and privileged people who see no issue with the current society see that as a threat to it.
Yes and the status quo is “painting your nails is for girls and therefore wrong for boys”.
Women being discouraged from doing things or looking a certain way or having certain personality traits because those things are “manly” or “boyish” is an aspect of misogyny. Men are the ruling class, women are the subservient class and are not allowed to adopt the guise and the attitudes of the ruling class.
So women not being able to do boyish things is misogyny but men not being able to do girlish things is misogyny too? How does that make sense? You realize there are women perpetrating that too, right? At what point does something turn into misandry in your opinion?
Yes, women are subservient. Men cannot act like the subservient, women cannot act like the ruling class. Both are predicated on women being lesser and subservient.
So how do you explain TERFs having an immense hatred for men as a whole and actively insulting and rejecting any biological male trying to escape a situation where they’re clearly not feeling comfortable? Do you genuinely think those people who call for a matriarchy to replace the patriarchy are upset at men “acting subservient”?
TERFs do not rule society. They are not the ruling class. They have not created a system of violence and discrimination that affects all men at all levels of society.
And what does that have to do with my question? You explained the reasoning you think is behind every discrimination against people trying to break societal norms. I brought you an example of discrimination against people trying to break societal norms that definitely doesn’t fit your definition. So that would, in theory, prove that such discrimination is not based on what you think it is (or at least, not entirely). If you still think that type of discrimination against males is misogyny you should refute that part of my argument. I never said TERFs rule society, but if they discriminate against males on the basis of something different than what you said, why is it so unthinkable that the ruling class might think in a similar way?
Just a rando passing by. I wanted to say I really appreciate you breaking this down. This type of head to head debating is what I was really hoping to find on Lemmy.
Misogyny is a system of violence and discrimination against women as a class across all levels of society. Like homophobia against gay people as a class, racism against racial minorities as a class, and so on.
And a power structure is to the benefit of the ruling class. The ruling class is not systematically discriminated against and would not allow any systematic discrimination against them. So there is no systemic discrimination against the ruling class. The ruling class is composed of white heterosexual cisgender men, and there are no power structures against them on.
Sometimes (the freak lobster men like top right aren’t what most women are into lol), but Hollywood doesn’t give a shit about what women want. This is what men want. It’s all power fantasy.
How do you know that? What makes you say that? Does it even matter why they’re put into movies?
As far as I understand it the image posted does not claim that these bodies are put into movies for women. Personally I would argue that unrealistic bodies are put there for both genders, but perhaps more so for the opposite sex. However, looking at the posted image neutrally and without reading anything into it that’s not there, to the main idea behind the image is to point out the fact that not not only women but also men are depicted unrealistically more often than not. Or at the very least statistically above average.
Some women might lust over this, but that’s not why they are put there. They are the male power fantasy and are added for the benefit of the guys that watch it.
There’s a reason most straight women find Loki more attractive than Thor and I’ve seen guys completely blindsided by that because they see everything through the male gaze.
As a woman who has mostly straight friends… I don’t know a single other woman that finds Hemsworth more attractive than Hiddleston. And most women I know would also say Andy Samberg is very attractive. I don’t know many men who would admit that Samberg is attractive.
Almost universally bodies in media are designed to appeal to men first and women second. There are exceptions, yes, but they are just exceptions.
Add comment