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Unhappily_Coerced, in Oh dear

I've been pondering the concept of Reddit "karma," and I believe it's time for a serious discussion about its true nature and the impact it has on our communities. I've written multiple posts about this previously here on kbin (https://kbin.social/m/RedditMigration/t/95140/Dearest-developers-Stop-reinventing-the-wheel) with very mixed results in the engagement. Though I am still working on refining the argument.

While the idea behind karma is to provide users with a reputation score or social credit, I've noticed that it doesn't necessarily align with those intentions. Instead, it often serves as a reinforcement for users to stay within their comfort zones and echo chambers, stifling diverse perspectives and constructive dialogue.

One of the main issues I've observed is the tendency for downvoting to occur when a user expresses an opinion that goes against the prevailing sentiment within a particular community. Even if the opinion is well-thought-out, respectful, and contributes to meaningful conversations, it becomes a target for downvotes. This behavior discourages users from engaging or expressing differing viewpoints.

It's disheartening to witness how users can manipulate the system out of spite. Some individuals go as far as visiting other users' profiles and downvoting their past posts to deliberately lower their karma score. This kind of behavior further emphasizes how the current karma system is more of a reflection of how often a user participates in echo chambers that align with their views, rather than an accurate measure of their quality engagement or contribution to the community.

With that in mind, I propose that we reconsider the name of the point system to better reflect its actual usage. Here are a few alternative names that encapsulate the behavior we often see:

  • Echo Chamber Score: Highlighting the tendency to reward users who stick to echo chambers and discourage exploration of different perspectives.

  • Bias Points: The system measures a user's inclination to conform to specific biases or ideological groups.

  • Conformity Score: The score reflects a user's adherence to the prevailing opinions within specific communities, rather than their engagement.

I believe a change in the name would serve as a wake-up call for the community, highlighting the importance of open-mindedness and respectful discourse. It would encourage users to think beyond their echo chambers and engage in meaningful conversations, even if they hold different opinions.

I've previously discussed how it would be more beneficial to leave the rep system in place, but keep the scores hidden to everyone besides the user of that profile. Another thing to think about is the way Steam has a rep system regarding VAC Bans. Instead of banning a profile completely, just some big red text on their profile noting which game or community there were banned from and how often.

I'm eager to hear your thoughts on this matter. What are your suggestions for improving the system to foster more open and constructive dialogue?

spiderkle,
@spiderkle@lemmy.ca avatar

dayum lemmy is on fire with science today. steam is a great example but i don’t know lemmy well enough to know if such a system would fit here.

Kichae,

I don't think downvotes do anything. I don't think negative reputation scores represent much more than a user's inability to engage prosocially in any environment, and those users should just be referred to admins. So, I think downvotes should be left in the rear view mirror.

Instead, I think we should replace upvotes with two actions: 1) A 'favourite' action, which could be a single, mod- (at the community level) or admin-defined icon, or maybe even user chosen emote reactions, and 2) a 'helpful' or 'interesting' action. This would allow uses to differentiate between things they find interesting or helpful, and things they just enjoy, and it would give an extra dimension to use in sorting posts and comments.

If we want to attach any kind of reputation score to a user (and I'm not convinced that we should), then we can consider having aggregate breakdowns of those different point pools. Which instances did those points come from? Which communities? If a user has 80,000 points but they all come from c/ElonForGodEmperor, that tells you something significant about how you might want to weight those points.

siuvhne,
siuvhne avatar

I'm already disheartened after a single day because I did in fact engage in a thoughtful discourse but was summarily reprimanded. I was hoping this environment would be different than the echo chamber that was Reddit.

Kichae,

You can't pay any attention to reputation on kbin at all. The dev changed how upvotes are interpreted, but the reputation hasn't been updated to reflect that yet.

QuinceDaPence,

Just so you know reputation is bugged on kbin right now just so you know. Down votes reduce your rep but upvotes do not increase it. Only boosts increase it. As a result most people onhere that participate a lot have negative rep.

zalack, (edited )
zalack avatar

As far as I can tell your comments were downvoted for either:

  • playing into the "both sides are the same" narrative that there isn't much patience for anymore, especially after Roe being struck down and the decision on Student Loan forgiveness this morning.

  • coming across as concern trolling for right wing extremists. I'm not accusing you of actually doing that, but a couple of your downvoted comments conforn to retorical devices that white supremesist groups commonly use. Looking at your profile I think it was just genuine ignorance on your part, but that's the reason.

In general, there are so many bad actors online that hide behind "just wanting to have a discussion" that people have lost patience with it. I've been seeing that sort of rhetoric my entire life used as a way to trojan horse advocacy for things like barring gay couples from having the same rights as straight couples, defending racism -- not even just racist policies, but straight up "black people are all thugs" racism -- taking away women's rights to choose their own medical care, allowing trans people to exist at all. The list goes on and on. I've just totally lost patience with it, and I'm not alone.

When 9/10 people who "just want to have a discussion" use that discussion to spread misinformation, gaslight, gishgallop, and make false equivalences, eventually you become wary of anyone who opens up a dialog that way.

Blame Ben Shapiro, that was his bad faith weapon of choice and it caught on.

siuvhne,
siuvhne avatar

you're not wrong. I feel brow beaten but that's really because politically I have no idea where I stand anymore. I'd probably take it less to heart if I was more firm on my own views. I may seem to tapdance a little around the issues trying to be thoughtful of other people's opinions. thank you for your thorough and kind insight. I have previously kept my opinions to myself but l am trying to grow as a person and that means engaging in meaningful discourse.

zalack,
zalack avatar

Look, I don't really know you or your personal values, but I would just suggest you keep the following in the back of your head:

When you look at political discussion and debates, which side goes out of its way to try and help people that aren't like them and which side generally is fighting only for people like them.

I disagree with a lot of the policy particulars of the Democrats, but the issue for me is that my only other viable option is a party trying to rip away basic rights from a lot of the population. Right now the basic question we seem to be struggling with as a country is: "should we be using our massive collective wealth to help people?" as well as "should people be allowed to live the way they want, as long as they aren't hurting others?".

If you can answer that basic question, start looking at the policy positions of each party through that lens.

Unhappily_Coerced,

Your comment clearly demonstrates your own bias. You are engaging in what is known as collective punishment or collective blame, unjustly punishing or mistreating individuals who may not have been involved in any wrongdoing, simply because they hold different beliefs or opinions than you and your group. This approach completely disregards the principles of individual responsibility and fairness, ignoring their individual actions and intentions.

Until an individual user posts racist or hateful speech, they deserve either the discussion they are looking for or, if you don't have anything constructive to say, ignore them and don't say anything at all.

It is crucial for you to recognize and acknowledge your bias, as it undermines the credibility and objectivity of your argument. By allowing it to dictate your actions, you are not fostering a constructive environment for discussion. You aren't considering their merit or engaging in meaningful dialogue.

It's important to remember that a person can hold bigoted views even if they actively advocate for social justice. Prejudiced or intolerant views towards a particular group of people, regardless of whether they are based on race, religion, gender, or any other factor, are equally unacceptable.

Remember, it is important to approach discussions with an open mind, respecting the diversity of opinions and perspectives. Only by doing so can we create an environment conducive to productive conversations and the exchange of ideas. Otherwise, we might as well create echo chamber magazines for everything. As an example, instead of "Politics" we'll need Left Politics, Right Politics, Center Politics, Top Left Politics, Top Right Politics, Bottom Left Politics, Bottom Right Politics............. etc.

zalack,
zalack avatar

I generally used to believe in that precept, that you should approach every debate with an open mind, and engage with anyone willing to debate you. But as I've grown older, I've realized that, while nice in a vacuum, that code is naive. It presumes that the person across from you is engaging in good faith.

As we navigate this new phenomenon of social media, we as a society are beginning to grapple with a few problems:

  • It is easier to spread misinformation than it is to combat it.

  • The Rhetoric of 'reasonable' discussion can be easily co-opted by bad actors to spread misinformation.

  • When you engage with a bad actor, you amplify their voice.

So when you get people talking about vaccines not working, or black people being inherently more likely to commit crimes, or blah blah blah, engaging with that in good faith runs the risk of just amplifying that message. I'm not really sure what the answer to it is. Like, I don't think the Nazi's would have been stopped by more reasonable discussion, and we are at an inflection point in this country where we are having similar discussions over trans rights.

I don't think "always keep an open mind and engage in good faith" holds up when one side consistently and systematically exploits weaknesses in that philosophy to spread misinformation and bigotry.

Lastly, I hit the downvote button on comments that contain misinformation, not as a bid to punish the commenter, but as a way to push falsehoods lower in the chain so good information can float to the top. If there is a discussion about trans rights and the top comment is "I'm just against kids getting life altering surgery", then that gets a downvote, because kids aren't allowed to get gender reassignment surgery, and the comment gives the false impression that they are, and that's what's being debated. It doesn't really matter if the person is engaging in good faith or not. Bad information is bad information, and it should be pushed to the bottom or removed before it spreads erroneously.

Unhappily_Coerced,

I understand the repetitive reasoning behind your perspective. However, the problem lies in your understanding, or lack there of, of misinformation.

Who do you propose is the arbiter of what qualifies as fact or fiction? Because you make it sound like you are qualified to know everything about everything with your ability to downvote... Or, do you think which ever argument is the most convincing to you, that's who is obviously correct...? Or are you more simple than even that and think, "this information is on TV so it MUST be correct!"

When you have a thousand qualified professionals saying the same thing, yet another thousand qualified professionals saying the opposite, what then becomes misinformation, disinformation, or malinformation? Are you still wearing a cloth mask outdoors and getting your boosters?

I love how everybody throws around comparisons to fascism and Nazis these days. We could focus on the left or the right and easily create a list of all the things we've done that was similar to things Nazis did. It really isn't hard to do...

During World War II, Democratic President Franklin D. Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066, which led to the forced relocation and internment of around 120,000 Japanese Americans.

Under the Democratic administrations of Presidents John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson, the FBI's Counterintelligence Program (COINTELPRO) targeted various political groups, including civil rights activists, anti-war organizations, and socialist and communist groups.

The Democratic administration of President Woodrow Wilson used the Espionage Act of 1917 to suppress dissent during World War I. The act was employed to prosecute individuals who criticized the war effort, including socialists, pacifists, and anarchists.

Democrat Bill Clinton invoked executive privilege to withhold information in various investigations, including the Whitewater controversy and the Monica Lewinsky scandal.

Democratic President Barack Obama faced criticism for the use of drone strikes and the extensive use of executive orders.

The Democratic administration of President Barack Obama faced criticism for its continuation and expansion of surveillance programs, such as the National Security Agency's mass surveillance programs revealed by whistleblower Edward Snowden.

We could talk about how Presidents Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, continued and expanded the "War on Drugs" policies. Which disproportionately affected minority communities and led to mass incarceration, raising concerns about civil liberties and racial inequality...

Good old "Drug War Joe".

one side consistently and systematically exploits weaknesses in that philosophy to spread misinformation and bigotry.

Or you know, we could accept the facts that both sides are similarly as evil as the other. Instead of just pointing fingers and creating more disinformation.

zalack,
zalack avatar

For anyone keeping score at home this is exactly the sort of thing I'm taking about. Like, this comment hits pretty much all of the general devices I outlined.

I'm honestly kind of thankful to you for providing such a clear and illustrative example. Gratz.

Unhappily_Coerced,

Nobody is keeping score, buddy. This includes you, apparently. It's sad to see people who are so conceited. But hey, you lie to yourself as much as you need to, whatever it takes to keep you feeling content. Have a great day, friend.

Unhappily_Coerced,

Lastly, I hit the downvote button on comments that contain misinformation, not as a bid to punish the commenter, but as a way to push falsehoods lower in the chain so good information can float to the top.

Feel free to point out the misinformation and falsehoods in my previous comment, which you downvoted. LMFAO. Talks in circles, blatantly lies, provides no evidence... Sounds like a spineless leftists.

https://i.imgur.com/ogg4jOI.png

primalanimist,
primalanimist avatar

I like the idea of a more nuanced upvote. It's much more useful. Also I agree with you about a reputation system. No matter what you have in place, users will find a way to exploit it. I think a breakdown of the communities that contribute to a reputation score would actually be useful rather than a generic single score. I love both your ideas. I give it the HELPFUL💁 upvote.

janNatan, in Well...that was anticlimactic

No, they didn’t. If they did it would be huge news.

Puppy,
Puppy avatar

I'm a huge UFO nerd but even I realize all this story is full of shit.

chicken,
@chicken@lemmy.world avatar

nothing new, theyve been investigating UFOs for a long time. heres some. the government itself hasnt specifically said aliens exist, but its kinda obvious from their documentation and history of handling these types of things.

dylanTheDeveloper,
@dylanTheDeveloper@lemmy.world avatar

The aliens are real and they look like little red astronauts with a single half reflective spherical visor and floating hands. They came to me and beamed me up into there spaceship. Afterwards one of the aliens was found dead and after that they ejected another out into space.

reverendsteveii,

truly they are real, and they walk around near us…wait, shit…

faceless,
@faceless@lemmy.world avatar

dont

FinallyDebunked,
@FinallyDebunked@slrpnk.net avatar

They look like bacteria

Damage,

hmmm… sus tale

Nomecks, in [AMA] Hi, I’m /u/spez, CEO of Reddit, coming to you to talk about my recent acquisition of Lemmy and some upcoming changes. Ask me anything!

If you were in a room with Elon Musk, Donald Trump and Adolf Hitler, could you stop fellating yourself long enough to give disappointing blowjobs to all your heroes?

TotalCasual,

This is an important question.

Jay, in lol

I know this has been said many times, but the fact that this clown was actually President of the USA makes me doubt the sanity of humanity.

Endorkend,
Endorkend avatar

Was and might actually be again.

Alteon,

No, there’s no way it’ll ever happen. If he’s even on the ballot, liberals will come out of the woodworks to vote for Biden. It also doesn’t help that RFKJr is stealing a sizable amount of votes from the Republican party as well.

IchNichtenLichten, (edited )
@IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world avatar

I hope so. If Trump is attracting former Biden voters in enough numbers for him to win, I want off this ridiculous rock.

VubDapple,

“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” Also, “Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.”. Carlin of course.

doleo,

"none of us is as dumb as all of us"

vormadikter,

I was curious, so i googled. I could find a mention that this quote could never be positively connected to Carlin even though (speciallu on facebook) people shared this quote. It most.likely is a wrong one.

correctiv.org/…/keine-belege-fuer-angebliches-geo…

cre0,

Lol just go watch “life is worth losing”

Google doesn’t work if you’re an idiot.

schmidtster,

That’s what the world told itself last time….

JoShmoe,

Uncle Bernie to the rescue!

Steeve, (edited )

No it isn’t, tons of people predicted it when the democratic party pushed for Hilary Clinton when democrat voters wanted Bernie Sanders.

Edit: No, this isn’t some propaganda conspiracy people, this actually happened. Lawsuits confirmed it, but they were subsequently thrown out because the DNC’s charter of impartiality was determined to be a political promise, not something enforceable by court. But even before the email leak, anyone who was following the DNC primary knew what was happening long before the email leak, they didn’t try to hide it.

schmidtster, (edited )

And that’s how propaganda works folks.

Edit

The propaganda is it being leaked, who said conspiracy…?

Also, that very likely wouldn’t have made a difference in the end result, without that discourse they would have found another avenue.

I’m sorry the propaganda worked so well on you, you now even defending it!

Steeve, (edited )

You’re going to have to be more specific there

Edit: lmao am I crazy here, what does any of this have to do with propaganda? Or did I just go against Lemmy’s doomer circlejerk again

schmidtster,

For one thing, telling yourself something doesn’t mean you don’t understand that it can and may still happen.

The best part of propaganda is when you don’t even understand that’s what it is.

Steeve,

What does this have to do with my comment? You’re the one that said the “world told itself” something. I’m saying it didn’t.

schmidtster,

The world told itself even though they knew the USA was stupid enough to do it anyways.

Your entire comment could have been a campaign by the opposition to sow discontent to do exactly what you claim it did. We will never know for sure, but it sure as hell has propaganda written all over it.

Steeve,

No, that actually happened. We all watched it happen in realtime, emails were leaked confirming it, but by that time we all already knew what was happening.

This isn’t some crazy conspiracy by the way, lawsuits confirmed there was a clear DNC bias, but they were dismissed because the DNC argued it was their right to choose a candidate and the impartiality in their charter was determined to be a political promise, not something enforceable in court.

schmidtster,

Leaked by the Russians which are backed by republicans… yeah reaks of propaganda lmfao.

Propaganda comes in many forms, as I said, the best kind is the kind you don’t even understand is happening.

Thanks for making my point so well!

Steeve,

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. The emails came at a shit time for the DNC for sure, maybe the Republicans were involved, maybe they weren’t, but that’s irrelevant because this actually happened. This isn’t a conspiracy theory, it isn’t propaganda, this is a bed the DNC made for themselves.

Imo it wouldn’t have made a difference, everyone watching knew what was happening before the email leak, but obviously we’ll never know for sure.

schmidtster, (edited )

The propaganda is it being leaked, who said conspiracy…?

Also, that very likely wouldn’t have made a difference in the end result, without that discourse they would have found another avenue.

I’m sorry the propaganda worked so well on you, you now even defending it!

Edit, what do you think propaganda is? Do you think it has be exclusively made up or something?

Ageroth,

Can you describe what you think the leak of those emails being was trying to achieve, from a propaganda perspective?

schmidtster,

The information in it was used by republicans to show how the DNC can’t choose its own leader, so why should they be trusted to run the government.

It’s not what I think, it’s the tactic they actually used.

Steeve,

That edit is absolutely embarrassing. Is your team winning really more important than democracy? It’s “propaganda” when real emails proving bias are leaked because it was your preferred political party? Come on.

schmidtster, (edited )

Team…? What are you on?

Yes leaking private e-mail exchanges to gain political advantage is textbook propaganda, what else would it be…?

My apologies that you assumed “conspiracy” in my comments that was just talking about the factual leak, that the republicans used to their advantage. Without that propaganda they would have found or made more. This really isn’t a difficult concept, once you stop assuming “conspiracy”… since that was not even once mentioned until you did……

Steeve,

Some mod want to explain why my comments were removed for “misinformation” for sharing the DNC email leak showing bias against Bernie Sanders?

…wikipedia.org/…/2016_Democratic_National_Committ…

YoBuckStopsHere,
@YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world avatar

TOS violation for spreading misinformation on elections.

Steeve,

Would you like to explain exactly which aspect of my comment that stated, with evidence, that this event actually happened is misinformation? An event that absolutely happened and there’s not even anyone denying it happened including the DNC themselves?

Anomalous_Llama,

I take nothing for granted with this clown. The fact that he’s still a free man in the first place makes me weary of his impact on the future.

I hope he loses. Or better gets hit by a car before election time. But if he makes it to the ballot and his name is on the paper in November. He’s a threat.

Risk,

Weary = tired

Wary = cautious

(Sorry.)

schmidtster,

Both are apt here I think.

CraigeryTheKid,

sudo apt update

sudo apt install functional-government

… Sorry I’ve been learning Linux this past week

thanevim,

Package not found: functional-government

Did you mean: anarchy from people-are-tired (universe)

LemmysMum,

Dependency not found: democracy.cfg

TheEntity,

Careful with this dependency resolution. I predict lots of conflicts.

Swim,

agreed.

Swim, (edited )

leery adjective ˈlir-ē variants or less commonly leary Synonyms of leery : SUSPICIOUS, WARY —often used with of leery of strangers She seemed a little leery of the proposal.

wikidiff.com/wary/leery

Endorkend,
Endorkend avatar

Yeah, I remember the last time there was no chance in hell he'd be elected.

I won't hold my breath.

dan1101,

They ran Hilary Clinton against him, that was a lot of the problem. Just as unlikable and abrasive.

Steve,

Stop

VaultBoyNewVegas,

Yet Haley and De Santis could make it close against Biden in swing states according to a NYT/Siena poll. Never underestimate human beings potential for stupidity and or shooting itself in the foot.

Railing5132,

A poll out today shows 307 electoral votes for Trump.

Alteon,

Who was the poll through though?

Lophostemon,

Plus the various psychological warfare / trolling campaigns by Russia and China.

fhek,

Sanity of Americans*

Gradually_Adjusting,
@Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world avatar

The popular vote tells a better story than the electoral map, but yeah, the ones that can leave easily, should. I did.

EatYouWell,

The rest of the world is trending towards American insanity, though.

The UN should have walled us off after he was elected.

Jay,

Nah, when I see what’s going on here in Europe… These may not be such obvious jokes, but this stupid and dangerous right-wing propaganda, which seems to be gaining momentum everywhere, is frightening.

krashmo,

It only works because more liberal politicians aren’t helping people anymore. Embracing authoritarians is an incorrect response to the correct assessment that the West in general is backsliding. We are collectively putting the interests of the wealthy above the interest of our citizens. Some countries are just further down the path than others.

EatYouWell,

[I’m not advocating large scale violence]

The worst part is I don’t see any way for it to reasonably stop outside of large scale violence.

And, the side who would need to revolt are the less likely side to resort to those methods, so I see things getting much worse before they get better.

krashmo,

Agreed. While it’s currently bad for a lot of people in a lot of places I think it’s going to have to be more widespread before we hit the breaking point.

EatYouWell,

The fact that over 74 million people voted for a literal monster in 2020 is what made me doubt it.

Also, the fact that there are women and non-whites who vote republican.

HoustonHenry,

Fox told 'em to

Sotuanduso,

Some people have different priorities or ways of thinking, and this can cause them to conclude that the Republican candidate is the best option sometimes, without being malicious.

I don’t vote Republican, for the record, but such people are out there. Otherwise it wouldn’t be such a major party (unless you think nearly half the US is malicious.)

deadbeef79000,

Hey, don’t lump the rest of us in with the USA.

pomodoro_longbreak,
@pomodoro_longbreak@sh.itjust.works avatar

It was a huge shock to us all, all around the world, watching him go from attempting to run for president of the U.S., to actually attaining it. The best thing I can say for it, is that it shows that Americans have a genuine hunger for change. If it could just be directed in a productive way…

treadful,
@treadful@lemmy.zip avatar

That’s a very positive way of putting it. I appreciate it.

Karyoplasma,

As a non-American, I concede that reading his Twitter meltdowns and hearing is asinine takes was extremely funny for the first 3 weeks. Then it just got sad.

UnculturedSwine, in Well...that was anticlimactic

the government just confirmed aliens are real another hack job with government connections is claiming that he was told by government official that alien “biologics” and space craft were recovered by the government without being able to provide evidence or details because it is “classified”

What a nothingburger

captainlezbian,

Yeah this claim is extraordinary and requires evidence equally so

feedum_sneedson,

more of a spunk sandwich

Nabs,

Except his documents were all routed through the Intel Community Inspector General who sent them to congress calling them “urgent and credible.”

And his lawyers are former Inspector Generals.

You say this just because he didnt post things to wikileaks and defect to russia.

The mans trying to make sure he doesnt go to prison.

blazera,
blazera avatar

We say this because no evidence provided.

mamaMiata,

Do you have some sources? Every time I’ve tried to look into it, I get garbage articles and no real information.

Nabs,

thedebrief.org/fact-check-q-a-with-debrief-co-fou…

This is the site that ran the original article prior to in televised interview.

This is part 1 of the fact checking / vetting they did on the whistleblower.

mamaMiata,

Thanks for the link. I was more interested in the original article here that focused on what exactly was revealed.

I’m skeptical with the fact that non-human made artifacts and entire crafts were recovered, especially since no one except extremely secret organizations currently have these materials.

The fact that a well respected member of the intelligence community backed by other well respected members has made come out with these statements does raise eyebrows.

With all that said, the debrief does seem like a credible source of information, and I’m curious to see what this evolves into if other active members of the intelligence community continue to whistleblow on alleged illegal activity.

mamaMiata,

Thanks for the link. I was more interested in the original article here that focused on what exactly was revealed.

I’m skeptical with the fact that non-human made artifacts and entire crafts were recovered, especially since no one except extremely secret organizations currently have these materials.

The fact that a well respected member of the intelligence community backed by other well respected members has come out with these statements does raise eyebrows.

With all that said, the debrief does seem like a credible source of information, and I’m curious to see what this evolves into if other active members of the intelligence community continue to whistleblow on alleged illegal activity.

Pelicanen,

So that says nothing about the information itself but rather just goes on about credentials and employment, with a tidbit about not leaking classified information. It does not provide any justification as to why this person’s claims should be believed rather than just “he worked there”.

Nabs,

It does, the IG that reviewed his case found it to be “urgent and credible” enough to be forwarded to congress.

Again, the man can’t & shouldnt, go full snowden where he just dumps his load and defects to Russia, forsaking his or his family’s future.

So that leaves us in the position of, hey, this guy has a record of credibility and others whove reviewed what he has say its credible and urgent.

It is up to congress to investigate and then declassify.

Pelicanen, (edited )

The information doesn’t have to be evidence of aliens existing to be “urgent and credible”, the statement says “The ICIG found Mr. Grusch’s assertion that information was inappropriately concealed from Congress to be urgent and credible in response to the filed disclosure.” which could mean it can just be about the organizational structure of the agencies, for example.

And I wasn’t going to mention it but this is the second time you bring up Snowden, who neither “[dumped] his load” nor “defected to Russia”. He released information to journalists that the US government was illegally spying on its own citizens as well as its allies in a much broader way than anyone outside imagined. He was then stuck at an airport in Russia because the US government revoked his passport during a flight that landed there. He has repeatedly asked for a fair, public trial instead of being put in a dark box at Guantanamo and received no agreement of that from the US government so he’s stayed in one of the only places where he won’t be extradited to a country that intends to make him disappear. Since then, he’s criticized authoritarianism and governmental overreach while living in one of the most brutal dictatorships on earth, which takes more balls than either of us have.

Galtiel,

But if I can’t needlessly denigrate Mr Snowden, how am I gonna convince you that Men in Black was a documentary about the real aliens that are real and really landed on Earth and work (for real) with the US government?

With credible evidence? But I don’t have any because my guy is so much better than Edward Snowed-in off in Russia!

Puppy,
Puppy avatar

Because the informations are hearsays from one man that may or may not be credible.

Basically it's a premium "trust me bro"

For some it's enough, for the majority it's just another disappointing nothingburger

feedum_sneedson,

for me it’s a spunk sandwich

Nabs,

You didnt read my comment.

If the man “posted pics” he’d be risking his freedom and family’s future.

He was found credible by not only his lawyers but the inspector general so much so that his complaint was levelied to congress.

thedebrief.org/fact-check-q-a-with-debrief-co-fou…

This is the site that ran the original article prior to in televised interview.

This is part 1 of the fact checking / vetting they did on the whistleblower.

Edit: grammar.

Klear,

“Fact checked” by some crackpot website lmao

Scew,
@Scew@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah, pics or it didn’t happen… oh wait, we can literally generate the pics now… shit. Guess we’re out here in the wild west these days…

TropicalDingdong,

The mans trying to make sure he doesnt go to prison.

He’s also clearly operating in such a way that this doesn’t get buried. People dismissing this lack an understanding of how things work in large bureaucracies/ have a fantasy version of how they think the world should work.

So much has come out already, but only for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

reverendsteveii,

you know another phrase for “truth that is only for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear”?

cult bullshit.

Duke_Nukem_1990,

but only for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

And how lucky, that this applies to you huh? Having secret knowledge feels pretty good, I bet.

Kaliax,

Sure thing, Dingdong.

CountZero,

I wish more than anything that there was evidence of alien life that I could see with my eyes or hear with my ears. For now, we just have some dude saying things with no real evidence.

atzanteol,

So much has come out already, but only for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

Only those who are willing to connect dots that shouldn’t be connected. It’s the same old conspiracy BS we’ve heard for decades.

WarmSoda,

So much has come out already, but only for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

And that, children, is how you know you’ve already been wearing tinfoil for far too long.

rebelappliance,

So much has come out already, but only for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

When people say these kinds of platitudes what they really mean is they love jumping to conclusions based on flimsy evidence and then judge others for not doing so because they’re “programmed” or whatever.

reverendsteveii,

he didn’t even say alien. “alien biologics” while meaningless, was a stronger assertion than he was willing to make. he said “non-human biologics”, which could mean anything from aliens to there was some grass there. he just left it vague and then people like OP who want the truth but also know exactly what they want the truth to be filled in the details using the twin powers of guessing and lying.

captainlezbian,

And important to note: we’ve sent dogs to die in space

Kerrigor, in The healing power of crystals
Kerrigor avatar

Hey, some of those are polestones, and are perfectly capable of storing Stormlight! Just gotta wait for the next hightstorm

latewizard,

Speaking of, when does lemmy get cremposting?

bdonvr,

!remposting

Why’s it missing the c? Who knows!

Reorder9543,

Because the full address would be lemm.ee/c/remposting. So the c is already there.

bdonvr,

Ah, but you’ll almost always see links like !memes - so it doesn’t work as well as it did on Reddit

PM_me_your_vagina_thanks,

Just started the second book, damn good so far!

bandario,
@bandario@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

It is brilliant but god damn he needs an editor who will stand up to him. I have stagnated on book 2 after about 5 chapters of tangential world building for some future part of the story. By the time I get there, I won’t remember those 5 chapters.

PM_me_your_vagina_thanks,

I'm around halfway through part 1 of book 2, I can't put it down, I can't say I agree tbh lol.

bandario,
@bandario@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Wait for it. It’s coming. A jump into another city somewhere with no explanation and a whole bunch of new characters you haven’t been introduced to. Like a story within a story within a story. I thought my toddler must have been playing with my ebook reader and skipped me to the next book.

tox_solid,
@tox_solid@lemmy.world avatar

Kelek’s breath man, when is the last time you ever heard of a highstorm outside of Roshar?

NeverDaunted, in Beans?

I believe this is the post that opened Pandora’s bean can:

sh.itjust.works/post/715364

NippleFarts,

beans.

Enkrod,

man, we urgently need a way to link to a post on another instance without leaving your own instance

genfood,
@genfood@feddit.de avatar

This 👆

Nepenthe, in "God saw how corrupt Reddit had become and said to the Lemmy devs, I am going to bring floodwaters upon them to destroy all life. Make thee an ark and bring into it all relevant subreddits."
Nepenthe avatar

The trees in that photo? That's kbin. We're never mentioned in this story, but we're still growing regardless

PenguinJuice,

Kbin squad unite!

Stern,
Stern avatar

There are dozens of us. DOZENS!

suoko,
suoko avatar

Kbin is like Lemmy's Chronicles.

strangematter,
monko, in Relationship advice?

“Is this normal?”

No, it is not normal to state what percent-better-person you would leave your romantic partner for. It’s cynical and narcissistic.

What if your partner is in an accident that changes how they look or live? Now that they’re X% “less” than what you signed on for, you can just dip?

Like I get being upfront about stuff, but this is just transactional. It’s not about your commitment to another person, it’s about maximizing your return on investment.

RedditWanderer,

And wait till they start disagreeing on if that person is really “75%” better. I bet you this guy is single

DaGeek247,
DaGeek247 avatar

This Eliezer Yudkowsky. He wrote a bunch of nerd fanfiction, and is apparently mostly famous for his takes on AI. He is a public figure.

christian,
@christian@lemmy.ml avatar

You could have answered my question a bit earlier, I broke my nose this morning and now her divorce lawyer has informed me that my neighbor across the street has gone up to 12% better than me.

EDIT: I just went over and broke the guy’s kneecaps and am now happily married again.

monko,

Mozel tov, may your love enemy forever crawl on his belly

netwren, in A genre of Country Music...

We have to stop identifying ownership with these billionaires and “their work” because it’s not. It’s a team of people who got together to accomplish a mission whether they succeeded or failed. How often is their success just a leader getting out of their way, and how often is failure because leadership was overbearing and “used their authority” to make poor decisions over the group.

“We” society only ever focus on these individuals and it’s horribly incorrect to do so.

We need to forget the celebrities and identity the groups.

paddirn,

Anytime management gets involved with our work, it’s because there was a monumental fuck-up or because somebody is doing too much micro-management. In either case, it’s thrice as stressful as a normal project that goes slow as shit because everything has to be run by the big person.

captain_oni,

Hey, if these guys do everything they can to make sure their companies’ “achievements” are considered all their own doing; let’s be fair and attribute all the fault of their failures as well.

But you’re right, billionaires ride on the shoulders of the people that do the actual hard work.

mindbleach,

I’m all for congratulating them and blaming him.

Certainly beats the other way around.

gizmonicus,

Absolutely. As someone who manages a small team, my duties are advocating for the people who work for me, listening to the people closest to the problem, mediating disputes between people with different solutions, and ensuring we are all working towards the same overall goals. Most of the success of the team is directly attributed to their work. My biggest contribution is making sure they have what they need to do their job.

uphillbothways,
uphillbothways avatar

So, since you're support staff and economically a cost center and not a producer, they make more than you, right? You advocate for their wages first, right?

victorz,

I mean, despite the down votes I thought this was pretty based, even if it came across as a personal attack.

uphillbothways,
uphillbothways avatar

Wasn't meant as a personal attack. Shoulda put it on the Amidala meme, I guess. 🤷‍♂️

victorz,

I know, you’re all good 🫂

Vanix,

Could’ve removed the entire appositive of your first sentence,and removed “right?” to sound like less of an ass with your wording :) valid question though. my employer does operate this way

gizmonicus,

Not everyone in my position is a sniveling little shit, as much as you may think. I do get paid more than my team, but not by some ridiculous margin. The lowest paid person gets 70% what I do and the highest paid person is at 95%. When I took over it was no shit closer to 40% for the lowest paid member. I fought for that to be fixed and burned up a lot if political capital doing it too.

When COVID came along and pay cuts and layoffs were a real threat, I told my boss to cut my salary before anyone else’s. We never had to, thankfully, but I literally told him I would quit if they cut one of my subordinates pay or laid them off without first taking out of my pocket.

I had a direct report who, for three years wanted to be in a leadership role. I fought for a new position for him and put my own ass on the line recommending him for promotion every chance I got. He’s been promoted past me and I hope (since I can’t see his salary anymore) he is getting paid more than me because he’s earned it.

I’m not some superstar manager, but I do feel like I keep my team out of the political battles and turf wars so they can focus on doing what they do best without dealing with all that crap. That’s my job. When something goes wrong, I’m accountable. So when the people doing the work get it wrong and take a critical system offline by fat fingering a command, I’m the one answering the phones and taking all the shit for it and smoothing things over with stake holders. And unless it was a result of gross negligence, I’m not going to give them hell for it either because I’ve fucking been there before.

I didn’t even want this damn job. I was perfectly happy being the technical lead and not having job recruiting and performance reviews to do, but I took it because I knew at the very least I would do my best to advocate for the people I care about, and that’s not something I could say about everyone who applied.

So you can make snap judgements and assume because I manage a team that I’m just collecting a paycheck while everyone else does all the hard work, but I don’t and I won’t because it’s unethical and shitty and despite your own insecurities, I actually give a fuck about other people.

uphillbothways, (edited )
uphillbothways avatar

It was a meme reference. You took that way too personally. I'm sorry if you were offended.

gizmonicus,

Considering how important it is to me that I’m not some piece of shit manager, yeah, it was a little personal. I take that kind of thing seriously. It kinda doesn’t work as a meme reference without the meme.

uphillbothways, (edited )
uphillbothways avatar

This is a shit posting community. Meme references should be assumed.
And I'm not your employee. Neither time nor place for your insecurities. Some conflict resolution skills ya got there.

Immediately talking about yourself, claiming authority, offended at the least thing, telling people what to think instead of showing those traits, serious in an unserious setting, and more. Your response to what started with a simple meme reference has me seeing more in common with the worst managers I've worked with in your actual behavior.

EmergMemeHologram, in We're going in the wrong direction

This, and autoplay muted videos in a feed like Twitter or Facebook drive me crazy.

You click unmute but you’ve missed 15-30 seconds of audio, so then you have to restart the video and click again.

Just add a “unmute and restart” button!

Narrrz,

better yet, just don't autoplay fucking videos! if I want to watch it, I'll click on it!

creditCrazy,
@creditCrazy@lemmy.world avatar

I have a feeling that might be a sort of add scam. Like oh look at how much watch time all the videos on this site gets. Imagine the interactions that your ad will get if you pay me to roll your ad on my platform.

dingus,

People that I know irl don’t understand why I don’t want to use TikTok. It doesn’t bother me that it’s “rotting people’s brains” or that China is spying on us or whatever.

It’s autoplay.

I can’t fucking stand autoplay. The first thing I do when I log into YouTube on a new device is disable autoplay. It legitimately infuriates me and I’m not entirely sure why. All I hear when someone is watching TikTok is nonstop incessant sound and videos autoplaying one after another. The sound often isn’t even relevant to the video and is just there to make annoying loud noise. The looping is also enraging. It’s like sensory overload (no, I don’t have autism).

If TikTok were more like YouTube in that I could click on the next video whenever I was ready, I might be into it and actually enjoy it. But it’s like someone made a platform dedicated to one of my biggest pet peeves and dialed it up to 11. I don’t understand how people find that enjoyable.

r1veRRR,

The videos are literally the entire point of TikTok. It makes sense that the MAIN feature would autoplay. It’s like complaining the pages in an ebook reader are “autodisplay”, instead of every single page requiring an additional input to display the text.

dingus,

What a shit excuse.

Videos are literally the main point of YouTube or Vimeo or even fucking PornHub, but they don’t incessantly play and loop nonstop unless you set them to.

I search for what kind of content I want then hit play when I’m ready. If I see interesting related content, I decide whether or not click on it or whether or not to search for something else. It’s not a nonstop barrage of spam content that I may or may not be interested in and sensory assault.

YouTube shorts are different, but I’m not referring to those.

PoolloverNathan,

Or add another attribute explictly muting the video by default, and disallow autoplay without it.

Norgur, in lemmy.ml

Israel is a state
Judaism is a religion

If one disagrees or opposes one, they don't oppose the other. I know that Israel has managed to spin the narrative that Israel and Judaism are the same and everyone opposing the state is basically the same kind of hateful asshole Adolf was, but that's just not true. We here in Germany have struggled a long time with that for obvious reasons. You couldn't call out Israel for doing wrong shit without being called a Nazi. In that past that is. What you've seen isn't "Antisemitism". It's opposition to some of the bullshit Israel is pulling that is the very same kind of bullshit Jews have been subjected to in the past. Or tell me: What's the difference between a Ghetto in 1700s Germany and the Gaza Strip? Correct, the 1700s Ghetto had less travel restrictions.

There is a great push in Israel to be proud of the history of unjust oppression and prosecution Jews have suffered for centuries and how awful being a victim of that was. There is this sense that together, as a nation, they finally have the means to safeguard themselves against shit like that. Yet, that very same nation pulls a swift 180 when it comes to palestinians. Pushing them back into Ghettos, depriving them of any form of economical way out, depriving them of means to get their own electricity, their own water. Paying them pittances for their jobs, restricting travel for them whenever possible. Now, as soon as those people act hostile (go figure), the "state of the oppressed" Israel responds with the military. "A little bombardment will keep them in check, right? How dare they hate us?!"

If the message all the Shoa museums, all the graveyards for the people killed in atrocities was really understood, neither the "West Bank" nor the "Gaza Strip" could exist without Israelites acting up against them.

Rant over.

dumdum666,

So you say that you oppose Israel’s existence itself - the existence as a state, but do not hate Jews in particular, right?

snooggums,
snooggums avatar

Where did the poster say that?

Norgur,

We all know that I didn't. But they need that for some sort of strawman argument, methinks.

rah,

Username checks out.

dumdum666,

I know you would love it @rah 😘

sheogorath,

Do you support the existence of an apartheid state? Yes or no answer only.

dumdum666,

Try your derailing somewhere else.

Norgur,

Completely off-topic, but WABBAJACK!

TrickDacy,

I agree with your conclusions but it’s an oversimplification to say

Israel is a state
Judaism is a religion

Those things are very tied together, partially because no, Judaism is not just a religion. It’s a culture and ethnicity as well. And given the history of how/why Israel exists, it’s in the unique position of not just being any ole state.

man_in_space,
man_in_space avatar

deleted_by_author

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  • TrickDacy,

    I don’t see what any of this has to do with what I wrote

    BarrelAgedBoredom, (edited )

    Israel played a pretty heavy role in the creation of Hamas. It’s not that simple. Here

    man_in_space,
    man_in_space avatar

    deleted_by_author

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  • BarrelAgedBoredom,

    I see what you’re trying to do but that’s very much a false equivalence. It’s more akin to the US’ role in the creation of the Taliban (among many, many other orgs)

    man_in_space, (edited )
    man_in_space avatar

    deleted_by_author

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  • BarrelAgedBoredom,

    Enlighten me, what similar situations are happening with Israel and Palestine that makes this comparison relevant? The politics and history around slavery in the US are completely different than this

    man_in_space,
    man_in_space avatar

    deleted_by_author

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  • BarrelAgedBoredom,

    Did the South have left-wing, secular parties with popular support that wanted abolition? Did the north actively suppress these parties while funding a group of religious extremists to do their dirty work and then turn on them when the arrangement wasn’t convenient to them? Was the north violently oppressing the south for decades before the civil war? Did the north interfere in the elections that lead to the religious extremists gaining control of the south? Are the results of that election hotly contested to this day?

    man_in_space,
    man_in_space avatar

    deleted_by_author

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  • BarrelAgedBoredom,

    You’ve just made it even clearer that this comparison doesn’t add up. The underground railroad was legitimized with the fugitive slave act. The more you try to force this comparison, the more obvious it becomes you don’t have any idea what you’re talking about. The US civil war and the problems with Israel and Palestine have little in common. Support for Palestine isn’t support for Hamas. Hamas barely won the election that you’re hinging your braindead takes on, the PLO and fatah still exist and would be much better options than Hamas, and between the two of them have more popular support among the people of Palestine. Israel is a fascist, apartheid state with dubious claims to the territory they occupy. They hide behind Judaism to justify their war crimes and actively promote antisemitism to conflate support for Palestine with said antisemitism. You’re falling for their propaganda hook, line, and sinker.

    shiroininja, in lemmy.ml

    Is it real antisemitism or just not supporting Israel?

    About when they start going on about “Zionists” Is where I draw the line and where it typically takes a turn.

    As a Jewish person, I find it healthy to criticize the Israeli government. Most young Israelis do. Their government has been steamrolled by a wannabe dictator that is corrupt as hell and his team of racist, backwards conservative orthodox buddies.

    They were just protesting in the streets weeks ago and now we’re expected to turn around and support the government? Nah. This doesn’t change anything.

    feedum_sneedson,

    Literally kicked Bibi out, and he got back into power. It’s crazy.

    undef,
    @undef@feddit.de avatar

    I also disagree with many things the Israeli government does. But when people ignore the complete history of Israel and exclusively ventilate the pro-Palestinian propaganda, a red line is crossed for me.

    zaph,

    I’m extremely curious what you see as the complete history.

    archiotterpup,

    I don’t see how European guilt for allowing a genocide excuses another.

    Bassman27,

    What about the people ignoring complete history of the Palestinian people and blindly supporting Isreal?

    mashbooq,

    What about people ignoring the possibility of a comet hitting the earth?

    Bassman27,

    What about the second coming of Jesus?

    Norgur,

    The christian churches around the world would hate that. He'd hand their asses to them for being backwards bigots and overall betrayers of his message.

    Toldry,
    @Toldry@lemmy.world avatar

    They’re also doing more harm than good. This is an immensley complicated situation that requires nuance.

    Bassman27,

    Dare I say all this could have been avoided if they weren’t mistreated for nearly 70 years?

    ShunkW,

    The complete history of Israel forcing Palestinians into ghettos and systematically slaughtering them? The fact that they told civilians to flee to the south and then bombed the very area they claimed would be safe? The fact that they claim the right to self determination but refuse to allow the Palestinians the same right? The fact that netanyahu funded Hamas to destabilize the region so that he’d have pretense to carry out his war crimes?

    I don’t condone the attacks by Hamas, but to pretend that Israel isn’t trying to carry out a genocide is crossing a red line for me.

    coyootje,

    This whole conflict has just always felt like a massive grey area as an outsider. Both sides have done horrible things over the years, with the retaliation often being even worse. Most governments (including mine) are actually supporting both sides, for example through humanitarian aid. That’s just kind of weird when you think about it, in a way they’re enabling both sides to keep going. And I just don’t know if there’s any way out of this besides one side completely destroying the other. Peace talks have been had so many times and it just doesn’t lead anywhere. It just feels inevitable.