David McBride: former army lawyer sentenced to five years for stealing and leaking Afghanistan war documents

Complete bullshit. Regimes that punish whistleblowers harder than war criminals reveal themselves as dreaming of tyranny.

The entire trial was cooked, and I’m furious :(

That non parole period is nuts too, pure revenge. What danger does this man represent? If he’s out on the streets some war criminals better watch their backs?

edit: I should add, it’s also quite frustrating that at the end of all this top brass has had no light shone on them, which was his initial goal on leaking. He thought the SAS was being investigated overmuch as a distraction from leadership failures. I guess we’ll never know. A slap on the wrist for the executioners, no systematic investigation, and an inconvenient man in gaol.

WhiteShotgun,

Ausnazitralia what a shit hole

IndustryStandard, (edited )

When the whitleblower gets prosecuted instead of the war criminals…

JadenSmith,

The year is 2034, war has become the norm. Prisons are filled with dissidents, whistleblowers, and more. Prison gangs move from violence to scary Sudoku.

livus,
livus avatar

The material was used as the basis for an investigative series exposing war crimes committed by Australian defence personnel in Afghanistan.

If it's war crimes the good of humanity should come above the good of a regime committing war crimes.

Aussiemandeus,
@Aussiemandeus@aussie.zone avatar

I think leaking military secrets is as good as treason.

Down vote me all you like.

I also recognise it’s a slippery slope that will lead to criminal investigations etc being leaked and punished just as hard to keep a politician or police officer safe.

The difference is the military is here to protect everyone, the police are here to protect those in power.

naevaTheRat,

It’s not like he handed them to a stranger at a train station or sold them to the highest bidder. He carefully sought out a trustworthy investigative journalist from the most trustworthy and reputable broadcaster in the country. A public one mind you, without a pure profit motive and stringent ethical guidelines.

The military is not an impartial or objective body either. They are just as politically active as the police with their own self serving goals.

Aussiemandeus,
@Aussiemandeus@aussie.zone avatar

It’s still treason, the journo doesn’t have clearance, you don’t know what someone might have on said journo etc.

I admit it’s not a great example of our democracy manifest .

It’s authoritarian as fuck, but it’s overseas in active combat zones

Zagorath,
@Zagorath@aussie.zone avatar

the journo doesn’t have clearance

The journo literally doesn’t need to have clearance. That’s why we have whistleblower protection laws.

naevaTheRat,

Yeah nah, the highest calling is ensuring integrity. Everything else must come second to that or there will be none, and if the military cannot conduct itself in a trustworthy manner then it cannot be trusted and loses the privilege of secrecy.

If individual soldiers are endangered then it is the military who endangered them, not the person blowing the whistle.

Aussiemandeus,
@Aussiemandeus@aussie.zone avatar

Yeah unfortunately nothing is infallible and it’s better in my opinion to keep a fucked up secret then have 10 men die so we can be open and honest all the time

Ilandar,

Men (and children) did die, though. That’s the point.

unionagainstdhmo,
@unionagainstdhmo@aussie.zone avatar

More than 10 I might add

Ilandar,

Yes, although I did find it a little ironic that when I went to Wikipedia to check this it specifically mentioned “at least 10” deaths. All human lives are equal, of course, but to me there is an important distinction between the deaths of completely innocent and uninvolved civilians vs the deaths of service men and women to have chosen to involve themselves in a conflict. Western bias makes it easy to overlook this point, but those civilians who were murdered are literally just us in a parallel universe. We owe it to ourselves as much as anyone else to properly investigate these crimes and bring the perpetrators to justice. And if governments and military organisations are unable to do this transparently, then anyone who does (journalists, whistleblowers, etc) should be celebrated and protected.

naevaTheRat,

If we want militaries to be more than murderers for hire then murders by militaries must be taken at least equally as seriously as murders by random citizens.

Zagorath,
@Zagorath@aussie.zone avatar

it’s better in my opinion to keep a fucked up secret then have 10 men die

wtaf

naevaTheRat,

You’re one of the saner voices around these parts.

Zagorath,
@Zagorath@aussie.zone avatar

I honestly don’t even know how to respond to someone saying they would rather have 10 people die because of keeping a fucked up secret than have an open and honest society. Like seriously that’s just beyond the pale.

naevaTheRat,

I think often when people think of other people dying they internalise it as a headline does. Such and such died, ok that’s sad I guess.

I think the correct way to interpret it is to take the death of the person you have been the closest to ever. All that pain and grief and rage, multiply that by the number of people expected to feel that per person, then by the number of people dead. you start to interpret pointless, preventable, or cruel deaths with the appropriate amount of madness-tinged grief then.

Ilandar,

I think often when people think of other people dying they internalise it as a headline does. Such and such died, ok that’s sad I guess.

Exactly. I touched on this in another reply but this could easily be us in a parallel universe (or even our own, one day). We are civilians too. The murder of civilians by armed forces should concern us, regardless of where they live in the world. I wonder how this person would feel about the situation if it was reversed, and a whistleblower in another country was being prosecuted for revealing the murders of Australian civilians by foreign armed forces.

naevaTheRat,

I like to take every government act I think is a bit iffy and contextualise it as “north Korea does X” to see what my opinion of it really is.

Aussiemandeus,
@Aussiemandeus@aussie.zone avatar

I’m saying it’s better a fucked up secret is kept than 10 people die not the other way around

Zagorath,
@Zagorath@aussie.zone avatar

Ok, but that’s not what your earlier comment said. It’s quite the opposite of your earlier comment.

Anyway, even if we do take it that way, as others have said, it just doesn’t work that way. Keeping these secrets is enabling more deaths to occur. The “fucked up secret” was “people are getting away with murdering noncombatants and prisoners and covering it up”. By revealing this “fucked up secret”, McBride was helping to save lives.

Ironically, this is kinda what you seemed to be acknowledging in your earlier comment. You said that keeping the secret leads to deaths (“keep a fucked up secret then have 10 men die”).

naevaTheRat,

(⊙_⊙)

livus,
livus avatar

Not going to downvote you, partly because I only downvote spam and partly because kbin doesn't federate downvotes so I can't even see downvotes from you and vice versa.

But I fundamentally disagree. One of the lessons of Nuremberg was that obeying orders isn't a good enough reason to commit war crimes.

One of the corollaries to that, for me, is that obeying rules isn't a good enough reason to be complicit in covering up war crimes either.

If a secret is a crime it's more treasonous to keep it a secret, because the people of our nations haven't voted to leave the Geneva Conventions and go out and commit war crimes.

Aussiemandeus,
@Aussiemandeus@aussie.zone avatar

I just don’t think we can live in such a black and white world.

I wish we could.

I’m not saying you’re wrong in any point though, I think i you’re entirely right. Just it’s all an impossible situation.

Wirlocke,

I’d say believing that leaking military secrets is treasonous no matter what’s being leaked is a more black and white opinion than believing the responsibility is on the individuals involved to determine if keeping the secret is unjust.

unionagainstdhmo,
@unionagainstdhmo@aussie.zone avatar

I don’t want to downvote because that’s not good conversation.

I also recognise it’s a slippery slope that will lead to criminal investigations etc being leaked and punished just as hard to keep a politician or police officer safe.

That is exactly what is going on here - those in power in the military were covering up their own failures and investigating innocent soldiers instead of those committing war crimes, i.e. Ben Roberts-Smith who was their PR guy basically who the politicians were using to sell the war.

The difference is the military is here to protect everyone, the police are here to protect those in power.

Given the premise for our military engagements since WW2 it is quite difficult to argue that. I think it’s dangerous to think that the military can be above the law and do things which may damage Australia’s international reputation without the consent of the Australian people. If we don’t know what’s happening we can’t consent to it.

Aussiemandeus,
@Aussiemandeus@aussie.zone avatar

I will concede we should know what is going on, but unfortunately I’m certainly not qualified to make decisions on what we should and shouldn’t know and i doubt you are either.

It’s bad to know we have to live in ignorance, but imagine if an asteroid was coming to earth tomorrow 50/50 of hitting, the right thing would be tell everyone and let us make our own decisions. The ramifications from that though would be monumental. Yes this is hyperbole but it I think gets my point across.

Sometimes people in power know better, and if this was the worst thing happening then we’re not doing to bad.

unionagainstdhmo,
@unionagainstdhmo@aussie.zone avatar

I’m certainly not qualified to make decisions on what we should and shouldn’t know and i doubt you are either

I’m a citizen of a modern western democracy, pretty qualified I would think.

It’s bad to know we have to live in ignorance, but imagine if an asteroid was coming to earth tomorrow 50/50 of hitting, the right thing would be tell everyone and let us make our own decisions. The ramifications from that though would be monumental. Yes this is hyperbole but it I think gets my point across.

I think every disaster movie ever aims to disprove that

Sometimes people in power know better

In your previous quote you argue that people shouldn’t know if the end of the world is imminent: who does that protect? In the case where the world ends you get chaos but they were going to die anyway, they got a chance to enjoy their last moments because they knew them. In the case where the world doesn’t end - the people in power effectively lose their power. It’s a bad way to think in a democracy, it’s how we slip into tyranny if we trust power.

if this was the worst thing happening then we’re not doing to bad

Someone has been sentenced to prison for exposing war crimes were being committed, damaging Australia’s international reputation and were actively being covered up by senior leadership. Meanwhile those committing and covering up the war crimes are not being investigated because “Sometimes people in power know better”. The fact that the media is complicit in this (especially the ABC who released a hit piece against him on 4 Corners). Sure we could be in complete civil war or have executions, but this (and the secret Morrison Ministries and Governor General David Hurley’s support of said cover up) sets a very dangerous precedent.

Aussiemandeus,
@Aussiemandeus@aussie.zone avatar

I don’t have great thought out answers, everything you say is a good point. I still believe war secrets are necessary and releasing them should be punishable.

Put 10 years on the incident and a review process provided the conflict is over and then have at it. However if it is proven necessary then scott free for those involved.

The problem is then everyone person with boots on the ground will live in fear of what they may have done after ten years rolls around. Especially as socially society shifts

unionagainstdhmo,
@unionagainstdhmo@aussie.zone avatar

Whatever changes in society, I don’t think people will look down on those who risked their lives to ensure we had a tomorrow, those who engaged in wars in DEFENCE of Australia will never be looked down upon. It’s those who participate in wars that were started for political reasons, where peace was definitely an option but not the default. Even then, I don’t think poorly of those who fought in those wars, even though that war was pointless and politically motivated, they though they were doing what they thought was the right thing to do. Soldiers committing war crimes though. Nah, fuck them, there will be a warm place in hell for them.

BruceTwarzen,

Holy bootlicker batman. Who did they protect in iran?

Aussiemandeus,
@Aussiemandeus@aussie.zone avatar

You do you man, I have my opinion you have yours

Kyrgizion,

And I’ll defend to the death your right to post it, although anyone is equally welcome to offer rebuttal

Zagorath,
@Zagorath@aussie.zone avatar

If you sign an NDA with a private company, they can sue you for violating that NDA.

If the reason you violated the NDA was to reveal that the company is doing something illegal, you are legally protected from that lawsuit.

The same ought to be true with the government. We have laws describing what the defence forces are and are not allowed to do in the execution of their military objectives. These are laws passed by the Australian Parliament in order to keep us in line with the internationally-accepted standard laid out in treaties. If the military is violating Australian law, it’s important that they be made to stop this. Ideally that would be done by a soldier reporting the crime to their superior, but what if the crime was ordered by superiors? Or if it’s a widespread institutional problem widespread across the military?

Well for that, we have whistleblower protection laws. We created these laws specifically so that whistleblowers would be allowed to reveal crimes. And McBride had 2 expert witnesses lined up to support his whistleblower defence. But the government stopped them from being allowed to testify, making a ridiculous claim of “national security”. I say ridiculous, because courts are allowed to be closed to the public & press for precisely this reason. We don’t know what the evidence he sought to bring in was, but we do at the very least know it’s not “identities of agents or codes”, thanks to comments from McBride’s lawyer.

The fact that he was prosecuted in the first place in a gross violation of Australia’s principles. The fact he was not allowed to present evidence in his defence is a gross perversion of the justice system. This is absolutely indefensible.

Woozythebear,

Bro he leaked war crimes you ass, that’s the morally right thing to do.

Baku,

I’m going to be honest - that’s better than I was expecting. Obviously he should not have been sentenced to prison in the first place, and his trial definitely shouldn’t have been pretty much rigged like it was, but I was definitely expecting to see him cop life, or a sentence long enough that it essentially is life.

unionagainstdhmo,
@unionagainstdhmo@aussie.zone avatar

Yeah that’s actually not that bad. but he’ll miss out on a lot of his daughter’s life and his dog’s which is probably the saddest part of it. I’m surprised people don’t care about this case, like there are students protesting in Universities about something going on in the middle east something they will have very little influence over. No such protests over David McBride.

note: I’m not saying I disagree with the free Palestine protests.

Ilandar,

The understanding young people have of the world around them is so heavily influenced by algorithm-based social media now, and English-based social media is in-turn heavily influenced by American current affairs which tends to dominate the algorithms. It is very hard for the trial of one Australian whistleblower to compete with that and even if students are aware of it the pro-Palestine/pro-Israel student movements are so much more appealing. They give those young people the opportunity to become part of a global movement and feel like they are effecting real change beyond their own borders. Additionally I’m not sure if the Afghanistan War is actually relevant to the current generation of undergraduate students. They were very young during the period in which it was something Australians felt strongly about and likely can’t connect to the historic war crimes committed by Australian soldiers there in the same way they can connect to the war crimes they are seeing in their feeds now.

unionagainstdhmo,
@unionagainstdhmo@aussie.zone avatar

As a young person who is also an undergraduate student (so no excuses I guess for not starting a movement myself) I fully agree, and even though I nuked my social media except Facebook (that is a work in progress), we even have that problem here. I become so disenfranchised when I switch from ‘local’ to ‘all’ because it’s just US politics --mostly identity politics-- and I manifest on those problems which I feel like they will be an endless debate, and it is very distracting from the very real problems of today, especially in Australia. Like who actually gives a fuck about Taylor Swift? or Joe Biden? or whether someone shouldn’t be used in a meme template because they said something we don’t like?

Sidetracked a bit there, what I’m really trying to say is. Yes. Shut up about America and give a fuck about Australia

Zagorath,
@Zagorath@aussie.zone avatar

I dunno about other universities, but I’d say the UQ protests actually are focused on something they have more ability to change than McBride’s conviction. Boeing has a very cosy relationship with UQ, and their core demand is to end that partnership and stop their own university being complicit in genocide by association.

A UQ student has more ability to change what corporations UQ partners with than they do to change court decisions made in Canberra.

unionagainstdhmo,
@unionagainstdhmo@aussie.zone avatar

Yeah that’s fair, I mean I hate Boeing as well because of their dodgy safety record. But getting UQ to dissociate with Boeing is hardly likely to actually achieve anything in the context of war. Weapons companies don’t give a shit about morals - otherwise they wouldn’t exist. When students protest something it makes the news, and making the news is not something David McBride has been doing

Zagorath,
@Zagorath@aussie.zone avatar

getting UQ to dissociate with Boeing is hardly likely to actually achieve anything in the context of war

Absolutely fair. But it’s the one thing UQ students have the most ability to affect, and if Boeing and other weapons manufacturers lost their associations with every research institution because of similar protests, that would have a much more sizeable impact.

unionagainstdhmo,
@unionagainstdhmo@aussie.zone avatar

Indeed, even if you don’t care about the war, I don’t like the idea of foreign companies influencing our taxpayer-funded research

MiltownClowns,

This was a much crazier headline the first time I read it, when it was about Danny McBride.

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