I won't rehash my opinions, they already been better said here, but I want to add I hate the phrase "close the border". What the fuck does that mean, was it open, did the last one in forget to close the door?
From the article, he is considering taking action "to restrict migrants’ ability to seek asylum at the US-Mexico border if they crossed illegally" which has a lot more nuance and is important to the discussion. So this will specifically affect people who have a legitimate claim to asylum, the border was never "open" to any migrants without it (or a visa).
"Close the border" is ridiculous rhetoric which appeals to far too many of the electorate. Unfortunately, we need to change opinions on the ground before it's no longer viable to use.
“It’s okay to do deplorable things today if it means we might get more votes for it tomorrow. Then we’ll focus on all the good things we talk about doing someday”
I think that's why framing the debate is so important.
This isn't magically closing the border, this is just adding a new punishment for a small subset of people who cross illegally. Whether or not it will be effective is very debatable (if barbed wire doesn't...)
We should be talking more about the backlog in asylum cases, why aren't we providing adequate funding for the courts to do their job.
Why do we make asylum seekers wait so long to seek asylum and get authorization to work, how does this do anything but place a burden on support systems?
And so on. This isn't about stopping immigration, it's about punishing those who do. [Too] Many will still support that, but it's a harder stance to take.
Law states that legality of crossing has no effect on validity of asylum cases. I guess we're ok with doing whatever we want to cater to a republican base that won't vote for a dem.
I don’t know why you think that would matter to Biden. He already kept in place Trump era policies on Asylum seeking outside official entry points and even wants people to stay in the country they seek to escape until they have our permission to start their journey.
Looking back at it I think his stance on immigration was our warning that he was going to be the farthest right democratic president yet.
"Biden considers vague unspecified action on a subject that over 70% of the American electorate considers a problem, clearly Both Sides are Just As Bad"
70% of the American electorate considers a problem.
See, this is what I mean by “treat them like political pawns.” If 70% of people thought LGBTQ+ people should be put to death, then apparently you’d be alright with that. You are a sick, sad individual
Answer me: If 70% of the population believed we LGBTQ+ people should be put to death, then you’d think that’s alright?
That’s what you’re doing here, but with immigrants. The real problem is you don’t see immigrants as humans. Their lives are expendable to people like you.
Answer me: If 70% of the population believed we LGBTQ+ people should be put to death, then you’d think that’s alright?
Ignoring that unspecified action on 'securing the border' and putting LGBTQ people to death aren't even in the same conceptual ballpark, if 70% of the population believed that LGBTQ folk should be put to death, then it's pretty clearly a losing plank to run on in a democracy.
So tell me - if 70% of the population thought that LGBTQ folk should be put to death, would you say "Let the guy who wants to genocide non-whites AND LGBTQ people win! Both sides are the same!" like you are now?
“Securing the border” is just political speak for trampling on the rights and dignity of immigrants. Again, I’m not that naive to be deceived by this crap. I’m way too old and have seen too many lies from politicians.
And I don’t compromise and barter with innocent lives. I’m not that shitty of a human.
Trump will put way more innocent lives at risk, so you are doing exactly what you're saying tou would never do by putting your vote for Biden on the table.
So I should vote for someone who’s actively causing harm and whose supporters see this as acceptable (at least 70% according to that Pug person)? That’s the best our system can do? What a fucked up system
It’s just a virtue signal that Dems appropriated from Repubs as the Overton Window has shifted to the right. In actually neither of them will do anything to affect real change because too many companies make a shitload of money exploiting the fuck out of immigrants. Then these assholes get to scapegoat these same immigrants as some kind of root cause for how the middle class is doing worse getting fucked over while Wall Street keeps breaking records. If the minimum wage had kept up with inflation, it would be over $20.
Why though? It’s been proven and shown with many many video recordings that the so-called “border crisis” is completely made up. Yes, there are a lot of people at the border seeking asylum, but it’s not a horde of people a la World War Z forming a human tidal wave crashing over the Rio Grande.
Perhaps the problem is the word crisis. If you reframe the conversation to say “there are increasing numbers of people attempting to cross the southern border”, the stats are pretty plain: www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/nationwide-encounters
I don’t know if this counts as a CRISIS!!! but it’s extremely easy to establish more and more people are crossing the border.
The GOP has cried wolf so loudly and for so long that now no one believes them.
The US-Mexico border is 1,951 miles long. You can’t capture the issue with a video or photograph.
And no, it is not made up. See for yourself. Border encounters spiked hard, but dropped just as hard for January. No idea what’s going on there.
In any case, look at the yearly numbers for a better picture. For 2024 we’ll easily top 1-million extra migrants over 2021’s numbers. Yeah, we got a problem.
How are we to employ and house 3+ million souls? And that’s just for 2024. This will require a new major city worth of infrastructure, every year. Don’t we bitch about rent pricing around here? Hold onto your butts.
I’ve always been staunchly against illegal immigration for that reason.We’re already in a cost of living crisis. The country is full. I wish the Democrats would realize that by continuing to allow illegal immigration, it lowers the cost of labor, and in turn and crushes the working class’ collective bargaining power. I’m not gonna go vote for an insurrectionist traitor that will cut Bezos’ tax bill to fix it though, but straight up, idk why people even want to come here anymore. 20 years ago, I get it, but now everything is expensive and you’re not going to make it Washing dishes and picking fruit.
Agreed, but adding to demand without relieving supply does us no favors. If we banned Air BNB and corporate landlords of single family homes, this problem would be gone tomorrow, but that’s not going to happen.
a vacancy tax would fix seattle overnight, I stayed at a hotel there recently and most the nearby buildings were over 50% just empty rooms. Theres no reason to justify these kinds of rents except price fixing.
100%. A friend of mine lives in a “luxury apartment” and at night, most of the lights are off, I never see other people in the hallway, and I can almost guarantee it is 30-50 % occupied. They don’t care though, they would rather have it be 30% occupied at the higher price than 100% occupied at what the true market rate is.
We could even leave those things untouched. And simply build desirable, affordable public housing like Austria. In areas where it’s feasible have Finland style district heating.
That would cause the collapse of said corporate land barons and ridiculous Air BNB BS. We won’t do it however. Because there’s no short term profits in it for said land barons. And it would reduce how much they’re able to overcharge impacting their profits long and short term.
I mean, it’s definitely still relevant. If everyone just said fuck it n moved into Hooverviles tomorrow, cost of housing would go down with no one to occupy/ pay for the housing. They are restricting supply. The only way to combat it beyond asking for legislators to actually do their fucking job is to decrease demand.
They’re restricting supply by buying up empty housing and hoarding it (and manipulating zoning laws and buying off city councils and getting the “right” ordinances passed etc). There isn’t actually a shortage of housing, just a shortage of “available” housing. You can’t fix that by shutting down the border. They’ll just hoard even more to compensate.
Since many migrants often work construction etc. Perhaps they could be employed to build it. Just a rational stab in the dark here.
And yes we bitch about rent etc. The key thing to understand, is that rent doesn’t really have a reason to cost as much as it does. The actual cost of upkeep etc for the buildings and property etc is a fraction of the rent. We’ve as a society demonized public housing, and largely refused to let any new be built. Or take care of the few that have properly. Because “reasons”.
Actually, Im fairly certain it’s the other way around. The neoliberals have been making these same arguments for over 40 years. “Vote for this guy because the other guy is worse”.
You are the one who keeps doing the exact same thing expecting different results.
I know that probably hurts your feelings. But your feelings are also valid.
Biden is going to lose this election so hard it isn’t even funny.
Democrats moving to the right to try and get republican votes isn’t a great strategy. But they’ll get to blame the left if they lose, and keep moving to the right if they win. Billionaire donors stay winning.
Democrats not being leftists has NOTHING to do with how shitty Trump is. Stop it. Stop. This is fucking reactionary stupidity. Stop using Republican “logic”.
No one who has said they are unhappy with Biden has said they aren’t voting. You fucking morons just assume a negative opinion implies they won’t vote against Trump.
Stop projecting your own lack of moral fortitude on to others. I can hate someone AND recognize that they’re still the lesser of two evils.
I just wish you dumbasses would understand that “lesser evil” is still evil, and I am NOT happy voting for ANYTHING evil.
People who are saying they won’t vote for Joe may be talking about the primaries. You know, the place where it would be WISE to vote against someone doing bad things that you do not support.
but fuck voting for what’s right when there’s a scary clown in the background!!
You enlightened centrists are so fucking pathetic. Go be happy voting for genocide instead of against fascism. Fucking clowns.
how would that work anyway? military patrols along the border fence? reinforcing the fence and billions of dollars of investment into Border Patrol and ICE?
I’ve keep being put into a position where I have to further my consideration in voting for Biden.
He’s the strongest the Democrats can muster, we can’t have any one else (but please don’t criticize him, he’s incredibly weak, a strong breeze will knock him over). Hes the best option we’ve got to stop a Palestinian genocice (oh except earlier today he vetoed a vote via the UN that could have stopped the ongoing genocide of the Palestinian people). But we have to vote Biden because Trump would probably be worse (even though, you know, Biden is the one right now supporting the genocide. not hypothetical).
If you think this delusional policy is defensible, right here right now, you are part of the problem.
NO right wing voter is going to support Biden. PERIOD. NONE. You will ONLY get votes for Biden stepping to the left. Literally every Democratic victory in 60 fucking years have happened that way. But yeah, keep pursuing these genocidal right of Rumsfield positions, Democrats. I"m sure you’ll find that center once you have cripwalked past Cheny’s undead beating heart of evil.
THe entire last decade of political progress made by progressives has been lost because of this idiot.
You will ONLY get votes for Biden stepping to the left.
This is fucking delusional. Democrats are not all further to the left than Biden - you'll never get conservative votes, but you can sure as shit lose moderate Democrats. And the only leftists not voting Dem at this point, with 'Day-One Dictator' running, are people who run fucking purity tests and won't be satisfied until Biden is waving a red flag. Which, while amusing, is not a realistic way to win an election in the current US.
I’m sorry if not supporting genocide is a purity test. Ohh, fuck workers rights too. And let’s add on the endless wars/drone strikes that Democrats like also.
Listen, I will be voting for Biden, who is clearly worlds better than Trump. But the idea that Palestinian Americans who won't vote for someone funding the ethnic cleansing of their own family members are "purity test" losers is...well, its a take.
Yeah, no, if the opinion is that "This decades-long US policy of supporting a foreign country isn't ending now, therefore, everyone in the US and in Palestine can get fucked, including me and all of my family members", that's not an opinion worth taking seriously.
You can say it's an understandable emotional reaction, but it sure as shit isn't a reasonable one.
This frames voting for Biden as a white man’s burden to save Palestinians from their own emotions. Surely you see a problem here?
Holy fuck, this is the stupidest and worst fucking take outside of pure genocide cheerleading I’ve ever fucking seen for justifying a fucking genocide.
This genocide could be stopped tomorrow if the US stopped providing weapons and money for the genocide.
This isn’t some stupid fucking “White mans burden” (I have trouble writing that out because of how despicably idiotic it is) bullshit. If we stopped giving one side the bombs, they would stop falling on the fucking Palestinians. We are directly responsible for the murder of their family members, and you’re arguing that they need to vote for the single individual that could stop the murder with one phone call.
You want Palestinians in the US to continue paying for and supplying the bombs, shells, and bullets being used to kill their family members. And you’re justifying it with language that is supposed to be used for arguing for justice. Yay for intersectionality!
You know those memes of a bomber decked out in rainbow flags as it drops bombs on some ‘enemy’ of America? That’s you. You’re using the language of progressivism to justify murder. Good job.
… I think I misread your comment. Okay let me make myself perfectly clear about what I meant:
There’s this idea that we have to vote for Biden to stop fascism (lol) and so everyone needs to follow the party line this election. There’s a corollary that has popped up which says it’s understandable for Palestinian-Americans and Arab-Americans more broadly to not vote for Biden, because they’re too emotional to make the smart decision and that’s understandable. This, in turn, creates a white man’s burden - we must vote for Biden to make up for the votes he’s losing from the overly emotional victims of this conflict.
And I somehow read you as saying this, and I think I confused you with that cracker PugJesus. I’m really sorry, it’s absolutely clear that’s not what you meant and I can’t imagine how I misread you so badly!
I’m pretty sure that you wouldn’t be capable of looking them in the eye and saying the same thing.
What, looking them in the eye and saying "Voting for millions of minorities in America to be oppressed and killed isn't going to save anyone, but it sure as shit will kill and oppress millions of minorities"?
Sorry that I feel that "MORE people need to suffer" is not a reasonable reaction to suffering?
Fuck you genocide apologist. You’ve made it clear you’re willing to sacrifice anyone for your own safety.
As opposed to be willing to sacrifice everyone else out of... what, spite?
Which, come to think of it, is an extremely right wing fascist viewpoint.
Fascists don't go to war because they're scared, though they often are scared as well. Fascists go to war because human suffering is their highest goal.
You wanna explain to me what oppressing millions of minorities achieves, other than human suffering?
Huh. I'm not really sure. I guess it must be because they're fucking worse on every issue.
I'm not okay with genocide or 'secure border' insanity. But I also recognize that cutting the brakes and saying 'all aboard the fascism express' is not a fucking improvement.
You want to explain to me what your are not willing to sacrifice in the ‘name’ of democracy?
Please, tell me about your totally-not-fascist alternative to democracy. I'd love to hear it.
Jesus you’re dumb (pun intended fully, though adding or leaving the comma was a tough decision.) And I say that, not because we disagree, but because of your complete misreading of that last bit you quote.
Democracy is a political system. Same as fascism (not that they are equal, but they are both political systems.) The reason the former is supposedly better, when paired with minority rights, is that it doesn’t lead to things like genocide.
You’re willing to throw away minority rights, and embrace genocide as an acceptable option for the facade of democracy that you love.
What you are supporting is not democracy. And you don’t love democracy, because you’re willing to throw the bits that separate democracy from mob rule out, to save the trappings of democracy. And you’re willing to tolerate genocide, the bad thing that supposedly fascism leads to and democracy doesn’t, to support, again, the trappings of democracy.
Secondly, I think that you are arguing in bad faith. I think you don’t actually believe Trump will end in fascism (though, I actually somewhat do).
Tell me, have you started purchasing weapons? Stockpiling food, water, medical supplies, and ammo? If not, why not? Resistance is the proper response to fascism, no? Lest something like, oh I don’t know, a genocide happens?
And this is all during a time where we’re not actually locked into Biden as a candidate. You’re all in for supporting Biden though he is actively participating in a genocide, and justifying it with ‘Trump’s worse!’ when we are in the time period where we could choose someone else!
It’s almost like you are arguing in bad faith and trying to prevent anyone else but Biden.
The reason the former is supposedly better, when paired with minority rights, is that it doesn’t lead to things like genocide.
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of democracy.
Secondly, I think that you are arguing in bad faith. I think you don’t actually believe Trump will end in fascism (though, I actually somewhat do).
I absolutely think a second Trump administration is more likely than not to end American democracy and usher in an age of fascism, possibly worldwide.
Tell me, have you started purchasing weapons? Stockpiling food, water, medical supplies, and ammo? If not, why not? Resistance is the proper response to fascism, no? Lest something like, oh I don’t know, a genocide happens?
My guy, if fascism comes to America, I'm a mentally ill near-sighted cripple living significantly below the poverty line with an irregular income with few practical skills. If fascism comes to America, my options are pretty limited to "hide messages in my cane for la resistance" and "off myself".
And separately, prepper delusions aren't going to be much help.
And this is all during a time where we’re not actually locked into Biden as a candidate.
I don't know how to address this level of delusion without going over a hundred years of American political history, which I suspect would be lost on you.
I don’t know how to address this level of delusion without going over a hundred years of American political history, which I suspect would be lost on you.
I love how you parade your ignorance. The Democratic candidate absolutely can be decided at the convention. All it would require is the current president engaging in an extremely unpopular genocide that IS going to cost him the election step down. You know, if he actually wanted to protect the country from Trump
My guy, if fascism comes to America, I’m a mentally ill near-sighted cripple living significantly below the poverty line with an irregular income with few practical skills.
So… Just to be clear with your previous arguments about being perfectly okay with sacrificing people, you’d actually vote for a Democratic candidate that was better than Trump in all ways, except he advocated for euthanizing, in your words, cripples?
You expect Palestinians to vote for the man providing the weapons that are being used to kill their entire families. You’d make the same sacrifice you expect of others?
And separately, prepper delusions aren’t going to be much help.
Tell that to the Italians. You keep using the word Fascism, without thinking through the ramifications of that word. It’s not a prepper fantasy to say that if you believe the end of democracy is nigh, and fascism is coming, that you should start stockpiling weapons to try to prevent the concentration camps. Something you also don’t seem to have a problem with, as long as they’re not in America.
The reason the former is supposedly better, when paired with minority rights, is that it doesn’t lead to things like genocide.
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of democracy.
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the last 200 years of political theory.
So… Just to be clear with your previous arguments about being perfectly okay with sacrificing people, you’d actually vote for a Democratic candidate that was better than Trump in all ways, except he advocated for euthanizing, in your words, cripples?
Yes, absolutely. Fuck, man, that's not even that far off. The US health care system as is is going to end me before long, and Biden isn't going to do a damn thing about it. I still don't want anyone else to be fucked who can be saved from being fucked.
Also, in this example, Trump should be advocating the torture and euthanization of cripples. Because Trump's track record and rhetoric are both considerably worse on the issue of Palestine and Israel.
If asked to choose between "More evil" and "Less", pick less. If asked to choose between having your entire family killed and having your brother killed, pick your brother. No one is saved by picking the greater evil. It's not a moral choice. It's not helpful. It's just a tantrum.
All of your other points are just rehashing the same arguments made before.
Yes, absolutely. Fuck, man, that’s not even that far off. The US health care system as is is going to end me before long, and Biden isn’t going to do a damn thing about it. I still don’t want anyone else to be fucked who can be saved from being fucked.
Sigh I can’t disagree with you there. At all.
Especially with the way this administration and everyone seems to have forgotten Covid is still a mass disabling event.
All of your other points are just rehashing the same arguments made before.
You’re right, they are. You’d sacrifice everything to prevent the end of democracy, without the recognition that to a significant enough portion of the population if genocide is on the table democracy already ended.
And you’d rather blame them, then literally the one man who could, in your arguments, save it. According to polling, basically anyone but Biden beats Trump. Fuck man, even the NYTimes with Nate Silver is starting to push the idea that Biden needs step down for the sake of the country.
You’re right, they are. You’d sacrifice everything to prevent the end of democracy, without the recognition that to a significant enough portion of the population if genocide is on the table democracy already ended.
No, that's really not how democracy works. It's not "Democracy unless it does something evil, then it's not democracy."
Democracy is not some good, pure, angelic ideal. It's ugly. It's asking people what they want. And oftentimes, people want shitty fucking things.
According to polling, basically anyone but Biden beats Trump.
That's literally not true, and I can dig up plenty of polls which disprove that handily. More pertinently, no one who is running performs better than Biden, except "Unknown Generic Democrat Who Everyone Can Project Their Views Onto" which every minor candidate in the primary wants to convince everyone they are.
Fuck man, even the NYTimes with Nate Silver is starting to push the idea that Biden needs step down for the sake of the country.
Nate Silver also pushes 'Both Sides'. He's a statistician, not a polisci specialist.
Nate Silver also pushes ‘Both Sides’. He’s a statistician, not a polisci specialist.
He’s a good person to watch to get a feeling for what the people who would make the decision of who to run in the Democratic Convention are thinking. Since that is what matters, and not, you know, democracy.
I’m curious, do you play board games, and if you do, how do you feel about board games that contain “kingmaking” elements?
It’s related, I promise.
Also, I apologize for the earlier insults and claims of bad faith. I strongly disagree with you, but you didn’t deserve those. I’m sorry.
He’s a good person to watch to get a feeling for what the people who would make the decision of who to run in the Democratic Convention are thinking.
... is he? Nate Silver is a statistician without strong ties to the Democratic Party. Why would his opinions influence the decisionmakers in the DNC? Or reflect them?
I’m curious, do you play board games, and if you do, how do you feel about board games that contain “kingmaking” elements?
Haven't played any board games in a long time, but I used to enjoy those kinds. I used to play In The Shadow Of The Emperor.
Also, I apologize for the earlier insults and claims of bad faith. I strongly disagree with you, but you didn’t deserve those. I’m sorry.
Nah, it's fine. I don't trust anyone who doesn't get heated about politics. It's one of the things in the world where you absolutely SHOULD be pissed.
He absolutely reflects the opinions of a very specific subset of people that that also has the decision makers as a subset.
There absolutely several public figures you can watch that reflect the views of the people that make the decisions.
Kingmaking is a thing that happens in games that involve more than two people where at the end game it becomes clear that only two people could potentially win, and the other players have to continue playing without the possibility to win, but end up with the power to make a choice on who of the two potential winners does in fact win.
Some people absolutely hate it, and feel that any decision made by one of the players that can’t win that involves anything that isn’t self-motivated as cheating.
Some people don’t love it, but don’t hate it, and have the view that the two people winning should take into account their own popularity with the decisions they make before the game devolved into only two potential winner, and that if they lose from people being mad at previous decisions that it is their own fault.
I’ve tried to give an unbiased description, though I obviously have an opinion.
I am starting to think this is Chuck Schumers secret account with this dumb ass, proven wrong “for every liberal vote we lose, we’ll gain two suburban moms” math.
It’s amazing to me that you’re more angry with the people who can’t vote for an ongoing genocide, then you are for the fucked up undemocratic private process of the Democratic party that is forcing someone unpopular enough to lose without the left because of the genocide.
Also, you know when lgbt people say that they won’t accept rights by abandoning their trans brothers and sisters? You’re the blue MAGA fuck they’re talking about.
Preserving a democracy that sacrifices people or commits genocide is not really preserving a democracy, it’s preserving mob rule without protection for minorities.
You’re in love with a process that doesn’t exist anymore.
I’ve keep being put into a position where I have to further my consideration in voting for Biden.
No you don’t. Because you have 2 options: Biden or Trump. If you are considering Trump as a legitimate pick, then just say you’re a fascist and save everyone time.
You will ONLY get votes for Biden stepping to the left.
Despite what the internet says, most of America is not that progressive. Else we’d have more progressive candidates down ballot. People love to bitch and whine about how there’s no good options. Well that’s because America is pretty conservative on a lot of issues. It’s not like there’s this giant leap from left-leaning to far-right fascists. It’s a huge spectrum. People not wanting to recognize this is why we get posts like this.
If America was truly as progressive as some people thought, a third party could sweep the Democrats with a popular progressive candidate. Unfortunately that’s just not the case. But it is changing. Albeit slowly.
So get out there and campaign or run for office. Because this kind of grandstanding only creates voter apathy.
In 1932, Hitler ran against the war hero Paul von Hindenburg for president, and received 36.8 percent of the vote. … Though the Nazis never attained more than 37 percent of the vote at the height of their popularity in 1932, Hitler was able to grab absolute power in Germany largely due to divisions and inaction among the majority who opposed Nazism.
But your point stands: Hitler gained power in a legitimate fashion. Chancellorship (it’s why that’s the fascist win condition in Secret Hitler, not Hitler being elected President). And then he took the rest of the power and made himself a dictator. Which is why we should be absolutely terrified of risking a Trump election. Giving him the pretense of legitimacy will only make it that much easier for him to take absolute power. And Trump has said he would. He said he’d be “dictator for a day”. Which is the biggest red flag possible.
If America was truly as progressive as some people thought, a third party could sweep the Democrats with a popular progressive candidate
In a word, no. The GOP and the DNC actively collude to ensure that no one else can compete.
No you don’t. Because you have 2 options: Biden or Trump. If you are considering Trump as a legitimate pick, then just say you’re a fascist
So our choices are 1) fascists who support a fascist or 2) ethnic cleansing apologists who are 100% okay with voting for the man supplying weapons and aid to those committing the cleansing.
If America was truly as progressive as some people thought, a third party could sweep the Democrats with a popular progressive candidate.
Yeah fucking right. Money is the number one determining factor in candidate success, and after that it is the organizational power of the DNC. How deluded do you have to be to think that ANY third party is going to be able to muster populist support given the current economic & political paradigm. I’m sorry, but that is just so fucking naive I can’t believe you even tried to float that.
They’re arguing against voting for a third party, just as you are.
I don’t agree with either of you, but this isn’t about what I agree with or disagree with:
You’re arguing that anyone voting for a third party is a waste, and that anyone arguing for that is naive.
The person you responded to is saying the same thing, but with more words, and the final paragraph arguing that if people are unhappy they should run or organize for political offices, rather than argue for or vote for a third party.
I guess you could potentially read that interpretation into what they said, but that is not how I personally took it. To me it seemed like they were arguing that if there was any real appetite for a progressive populist candidate that it would be possible to get them elected through grassroots support alone, and I just don’t agree with that at all for the reasons that I already stated. The nature of the two party system is that it necessarily creates the artificial appearance of majority support for candidates that would otherwise not even represent a plurality within their own party a lot of the time.
You lefties make me want to vote for trump. I’ve been a Democrat my entire life but I hate being associated with you idiots. Biden is a strong president and has done far more good than any president in the past 50 years but you’re too far up hasan pikers ass to see it.
If I see one more “lefty” talking shit about Biden, I’m voting for trump and getting the other fence centers to do so. And I hope he leaves NATO and abandons Palestine to be left a crater so you idiots can finally have a reason to cry (wouldn’t matter since you’re always crying).
In the months prior to the pandemic, the unemployment rate during the Trump administration was below 4% for nearly 20 straight months — there was one exception in that stretch, when the rate was 4% in January 2019.
Had Biden set the threshold a tick higher, at or below 4% — instead of simply below 4% — then “the longest stretch in over 50 years” would have occurred under the president he beat in 2020 and may face again in 2024: Donald Trump.
During the Trump administration, there were 24 straight months when the unemployment rate was at or below 4%, starting in March 2018 and ending in February 2020, before the devastating economic effects of the pandemic kicked in.
By that measure, an unemployment rate at or below 4%, the Biden administration is currently riding a streak of 20 straight months — the longest stretch in over three years.
But trump had the worst unemployment rate because of his mishandling of COVID. Two of my examples. Funny how you tried to focus in a single point (and failed) and ignored the others.
Imagine thinking that your candidate is above criticism for enabling a genocide 🤡
Go ahead and do what you’re going to do. If someone correctly criticizing Biden for being too right-wing makes you want to vote for Trump, you never had any principles anyway.
Criticism is fair play and he should be criticized for funding any war as a whole BUT Israel is our ally. That’s just how it goes. Although 28,000 deaths and counting is pretty messed up - I just don’t see how it’s our/Biden’s fault.
NO right wing voter is going to support Biden. PERIOD. NONE. You will ONLY get votes for Biden stepping to the left. Literally every Democratic victory in 60 fucking years have happened that way. But yeah, keep pursuing these genocidal right of Rumsfield positions, Democrats. I"m sure you’ll find that center once you have cripwalked past Cheny’s undead beating heart of evil.
Sure, he’s not going to get any right-wing voters, but is he going to lose left-wing voters? There’s still a center, and the majority of people are in there. That majority cares about things like this.
THe entire last decade of political progress made by progressives has been lost because of this idiot.
I'm not, but I'm also not a fucking moron and recognize that the current situation will get significantly worse if the guy who's pretty open about wanting to outright shoot anyone that tries to cross the border is elected.
Do you support open borders? If so, what’s the most effective way to make that happen, considering the many innocent people who are imprisoned, raped, and tortured?
You can feel that way. But too fucking bad. Your choice is Hitler or Less Bad Hitler. Welcome to party-fucking-politics. Or as we should be saying, 4th grade civics.
Thanks, I now have a very easy thread to refer to when someone says "WELL I'VE NEVER SEEN ANYONE SAY BIDEN AND TRUMP WERE THE SAME WHEN CRITICIZING THEM"
Your options are 50% Hitler or 100% Hitler, theres no world where 100% Hitler is going to be less Hitler than 50% Hitler and if you don't pick you get 100% Hitler by default.
What are you going to do? What realistic option do you see right now that will lead to less Hiter?
And then he continues to imprison and deporting innocent people, and whenever I complain about that, a chorus of right-wing liberals like that Pug person silence me by accusing me of supporting Trump? Do you know I have friends and family who’ve been harmed by this? Do you think they care who put them there? Whoever is making that happen is a fascist, and I should be allowed to call them such. I was assured (lied to) that Democrats are the good ones, and that they’re not as cultlike as MAGA. Look at the replies I have. This is not the case.
Do you think more people wont be hurt under Trump?
Will those people care that you effectively gave Trump your vote because you didn't like Biden?
There are no good guys in capitalist representative democracy, work with what you have available to you at the time and come up with ways to see the long term change happen.
Go find your nearest anarchist group and join them, contribute to small scale local issues and convert people to a better way, change can only come from a million small voices demanding it. But while you’re doing that, you're also going to have to suck it up and realise fascist Biden is damage mitigation from an even more harmful fascist Trump.
And ignore the shitlib comments, there’s nothing to gain from dwelling on their negativity.
What makes you think I’m not involved? Every time I say something, people tell me to do things I’m already doing! I’m on local committees, I meet with my city council rep, I’ve even considered running myself, except my work schedule is too unconventional.
Go find your nearest anarchist group and join them
I live in South Dakota, but I get the sentiment. Closest thing I have are my husband and my friends on Discord.
contribute to small scale local issues and convert people to a better way
This is my entire line of work and my personal thing. 100% do this. I can always do better, but again, what leads you to believe I’m not? I am, and I STILL think we should demand more from our president. I thought if we voted for him, that we were allowed to complain about him. Why not? Give me one good reason why I shouldn’t demand of a sitting president that he open the border?
you’re also going to have to suck it up and realise fascist Biden is damage mitigation from an even more harmful fascist Trump
OK, and if this is the case, then I will, but no one is going to convince me to vote for this colossal waste of human potential by shitting on me every time I get upset by one of the many horrible and atrocious acts he commits. If we’re not going to work together to demand more of him, then why even vote at all? Things just keep getting worse, no matter who is president. Sure, they throw a few bleached bones to certain groups of people every now and then to maintain some popularity, but they keep doing horrible, horrible things to other groups of people, such as Palestinians, Latin-American immigrants, and even our own poor and homeless. I’m thankful I was able to marry my husband, but that doesn’t make it ok to do what he is doing.
You don’t see me treating refugees and immigrants like political pawns.
Literally fucking over refugees and immigrants under a Trump administration for the sake of your politics. But tell me more about how you're the Moral Side(tm)
I voted for this disgusting “person” in 2020, didn’t I?
No clue. Votes aren't public. But if you did, while believing the US isn't a democracy, then what were you doing then? Jerking off in the polling booth?
So you don't have an answer for what you were doing voting in what you believe isn't a democracy. Jerking off in the polling booth seems an appropriate interpretation of such a 'vote'.
You are a horrible person. You don’t see immigrants and refugees as humans worth saving. Every comment you make reveals your true character. You lack all empathy.
Because you think if 70% of the population believes we should dehumanize and imprison innocent people, then you’re just fine with that.
I think that if 70% of the population thinks we should dehumanize and imprison innocent people, opposition is pretty clearly not a position that's going to win a majority of the vote, which is necessary to win an election. Put another way - Truman running on desegregation in the late 1940s, but not gay marriage, was completely acceptable, because there was no fucking way the majority of the population was going to vote in favor of gay marriage.
You address what problems you can with politicians - the rest, you have to change minds on the ground. You want to change this situation? Argue with your fellow citizens. Get them out of their mindset of border hysteria. But throwing a fit over how democracy works on a basic level isn't going to help anyone.
So your answer is: Yes, you would support a genocide if 70% of the population supported it.
I know enough not to try talking any sense into you. I’ve seen that you’re nothing but a conservative status quo warrior. But I’m thankful anyone who sees this thread will be clear on what you are.
You’re using the history of an appalling state founded on racism with a history of genocide that made the Nazis shudder?
Maybe don’t use US history as an example of what we should look up to. It’s a cautionary tale.
And we don’t need to decide between freedom and LGBTQ+ rights. Any valid system would protect these things in spite of what 70% of people might be deceived into believing
It is if a large proportion of the voters believe in terrible positions
And you’re just fine with that, so the answer to my question was “yes”
And that’s… not how anarchy works. People are only excluded if they are doing something really egregiously antithetical to anarchism – for example, attempting to introduce hierarchical structures or otherwise treat others inequitably.
It literally is. Acceptance into an anarchist commune has, historically, been far from guaranteed just by wandering in and saying "I would like to automatically be a full member of your commune." when there are large portions of the population which are quite opposed to the ideals you want to uphold.
People are only excluded if they are doing something really egregiously antithetical to anarchism – for example, attempting to introduce hierarchical structures or otherwise treat others inequitably.
"You see, MY democracy where we strip people of voting rights and keep them as second-class citizens for what they believe is way better than those other so-called democracies where people vote based on what they believe!"
Very democratic, 10/10. Worst part is, it both contradicts your prior point, and it's not even a particularly anarchist answer.
I don't own a gun to off myself, and I'm too crippled to go hand-to-hand with any real chance of success. If I don't have enough warning before the goon squad comes to overdose on something, I'm pretty fucked.
I’m sorry to hear that but when the shit hits the fans communities will come together to try to protect each other. I hope nothing really happens, but if Jan 6 showed me anything it was that they are willing to over throw the government with violence.
It really fuckin sucks that we have the 2 oldest fucks in president history as actual candidates. They should be retired and not be near there presidential campaign or office.
Yeah. Funny enough though, my preferred candidate would still have the two oldest fucks in presidential history, it just would've been a different oldest fuck on one side.
I already threw my vote away by voting for someone who continued Trump’s fascist border policy. ThRoW yOuR vOtE aWaY wake the fuck up, Biden is just more Trump, and his supporters are just as unhinged and cultlike. All you do is parrot the same tired lies.
Guys guys, I’m not voting for the guy that followed the law that Trump made. Instead I’m gonna vote for a dictator “for a day”, or throw it away and help the person that wants to be a dictator.
So we can’t criticize Biden because the office of POTUS doesn’t have the power to do anything in our form of government, but if Trump wins suddenly the office of POTUS is a dictatorship? That makes a ton of sense.
Of course you can criticize him all you want, but don’t bust that BS that “it’s only a dictatorship” if Republican. Not one democratic has said to be a dictator for a day unlike the supreme bone spurs leader.
Ok so do nothing, and lose the election which would still result in a mass deportation on immigrants, shut down the border indefinitely, and shit maybe even allow hunting them from Cheeto Man rabid dogs. Got it.
The article literally says that the will be exceptions and gives time to fix the stupidity that has been going on with asylum rules.
Dipshits like them will be the reason Trump wins if he does. Im sure they'll be comforted screaming about how they didn't vote for Biden as we lose anything that even halfway resembles democracy.
Right-wing liberals: We’re not as cultlike as MAGA!
Also right-wing liberals: Oh, you’re upset Biden is imprisoning, torturing, and deporting innocent people? Well too bad, you dense motherfucker! LALALALALALALALA
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