They shot at police. Were they 'standing their ground'?

Many Americans, especially on the right, have rallied around two political creeds: support for the police and the right to armed self-defense. But what happens when and conflict?

Consider the trial of Marvin Guy, which begins Monday in Bell County, north of Austin, Texas. In 2014, Killeen Police Department officers suspected he was selling drugs and a SWAT team raided the apartment where he and his girlfriend were asleep. They didn’t knock, and it’s unclear whether they announced themselves before smashing windows. “I fired out the window, having no idea it was the police, thinking it was a robbery, or somebody trying to come into the house to kill us,” Guy told The Washington Post last year. (He has acknowledged it was illegal for him to have firearms, due to a criminal record.) Police found “approximately one gram of suspected cocaine” on the property, according to The New York Times. Amid the exchange of fire, four officers were hit and one, Detective Charles Dinwiddie, was killed.

Prosecutors initially sought the death penalty but dropped it, so Guy faces life in prison on his capital murder charge. The trial will likely focus on whether he knew he was shooting at police. Jurors will undoubtedly be thinking about “stand your ground” and “castle doctrine” laws, which vary by state but generally give people the right to use deadly force when they are unable to retreat or inside their own homes.

Several high-profile shootings recently underscored the risks of these laws. The 2020 killing of Breonna Taylor during a raid in Louisville, Kentucky, ignited protests and led some states and cities to ban or restrict police from descending on a property without announcing themselves. Following Guy’s arrest, Killeen ended no-knock raids in drug cases. His upcoming trial is the latest example of the collision course between laws that give police the ability to surprise people, and laws that give people the right to shoot back.

Searching court records and news articles, I found nearly two dozen people who have been arrested since 1978 for shooting at officers during raids involving forcible entry or surprise. A New York Times analysis found at least 13 officers and 81 civilians had died in “forcible entry” raids from 2010 through 2016, and that even when police announced themselves before a late-night raid, people inside a house might not have heard them. Many were asleep. …

Frog-Brawler,
Frog-Brawler avatar

It’s not legal to break into peoples’ homes, and if cops or anyone else decides to do it with a weapon… that’s pretty much exactly what stand your ground exists for.

Sounds like a “not guilty” to me, and maybe next time the 4 cops that didn’t get killed will take a different approach.

Talaraine,
Talaraine avatar

This right here. Activist juries are the only way forward through this stupid shit. They aren't listening otherwise.

Abird1620,

Interestingly, depending on the state, no-knock warrants are used for situations that could be considered “high-risk” for officers. I’m not arguing whether or not it should be legal. I’m just say that as of now, many states allow no-knock warrants.

ShittyBeatlesFCPres,

No-knock raids for small time drug dealers is just a ridiculous idea. I can’t think of many scenarios where they do make sense at a private residence. If someone has such a small operation that they can get rid of all the evidence in one flush, they aren’t worth sending a SWAT team (and risking everyone’s life) for in the first place.

Like if it’s one guy suspected of dealing out of his only house, just wait until he goes to put the trash out or something wearing slippers and a bathrobe and have one cop roll up and say, “Hi, I’m Officer Smith. We have a warrant to search your house.” and then radio to your van full of colleagues a few blocks away. Achievement Unlocked: De-escalation.

JJROKCZ,

Yea but that doesn’t give them a chance to use all their military surplus breach and clear gear

CADmonkey,

Imagine if swat showed up to a house that had a car bomb in the driveway. Might temper that zeal a little bit.

snooggums,
snooggums avatar

At least the cop died doing what he loved.

Ruining people's lives over tiny amounts of what might possibly be drugs.

BrotherL0v3,

Police found “approximately one gram of suspected cocaine” on the property, according to The New York Times.

  1. One gram is a tiny amount of anything. Being in the same room as Charlie Sheen probably gets 1g of cocaine on your clothes. /s
  2. “Approximately” is doing a lot of lifting if we’re already talking about such a small amount.
  3. “Suspected” doesn’t mean much. Did they find some white powder and just bag it up? Did they swab it with one of those in famously shitty field testing kits?

Say what you will about the guy outside of that, but pigs kicking in a guy’s door and finding “maybe a quarter teaspoon of probably drugs” smells like bullshit.

TropicalDingdong,

Does any one know the street value of 1 g of suspected cocaine?

baldingpudenda,

About $10 to a high school kid, along with a $20 bag of oregano

sramder,
@sramder@lemmy.world avatar

It varies by location/quality/etc but under $50 USD, probably a lot less in most cases.

CADmonkey,

Less than the money spent on fuel to get the police vehicles to the victim’s house.

El_guapazo,

If the issue is whether the police announced themselves, couldn’t any future robbers just say that they’re police as they break in? They just did a deeper hole.

1847953620,

Detective Charles Dimwitted, how appropriate.

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