Thanks for this statement. I read it as “diagnostic labels are a tool supposed to be used in professional communication but it may be harmful when used otherwise”.
IMO, much of that harm could be avoided by just not pathologizing and labeling personal caracteristics as “disorders”, though, which are characteristics certain societies could greatly benefit from if such people would just be given the right respect and task.
We know that we behave and think differently. We generally have more difficulty with social situation and are hypersensitive to sensory input. But to me, these seem like impacts of a fundamental difference. For example, we have social difficulties in NT environments because something with our neurotype is different. What is that...
I try everything I can, music, animation, art, programming, even Sports yet no one understands me!
Language!
Seriously, what i found out is that (kind of) everyone “speaks a different language”. Unforunately, most people are not aware of this, so the burden is on those who do get aware, to communicate in a language that the other one understands. Autistic people tend to use and understand languages differently, in characteristic ways. More formulaic or more complex, for example – thus a difficulty arises in translating their idea, say into somewhat more culturally-associative or sequetial/one-dimensional language.
In other words, i think that i understand you! 🥲
The list of things you tried to express in, those can all be taken as different languages, all with their own complexity and levels of formulaity, suitable for communicating different things. I mean for example, that music and arts can be good for displaying emotions and impressions, among other things. Even Sports can convey a lot of practical philosophy.
So, for me it gets interesting when someone says that they are “not understood” but their list of languages they considered to convey their idea does not include verbal language. That is not a fault. Many people and by far not only ND ones don’t do well in verbal expression. Some of the most proficient exerts are very good at expressing their ideas in math, but ask them to explain all that in plain language or talk about the philosophical implications and they will fail.
Perhaps you are asking for help with coming toward a “translation”, or perhaps it is about finding a suitable way to express. Or perhaps you are asking for someone who could resonate with your way of expression; someone who is able to communicate in your way.
My first question back to/for you may be, could you explain it in words, in what ways is your use of those means of expression you mentioned different/divergent from the way others use them? – Or is it so that you “failed” in those disciplines at expressing your idea (trying to imitate rather than innovate)? (Did you ever think about it?)
There are ways to going by example also online. One place for such things could indeed be the Matrix chat.
The way in which you use a language or an art differently matters! If only few people understand you then you are doing something out of the ordinary. It might be unfitting in your social environment but it might as well be something novel.
Here is an example from me. When I play my drum then I can tell a story. You bet there is rarely a 4/4 beat in that playing, and it’s not just any drum but it’s melodic. Rarely there is someone who would inquire about the playing but rather about the drum … because the technical seems to be talked about more easily than the dramatic, idk. And rarely there is someone who could follow, as the way is intuitive; I never play the exact same thing twice.
I’d also ask you how old you are. It’s because more lifetime brings more experience and less lifetime brings less expectation. … I’m a fourty-eight year old boy who sometimes has something coming through in an odd rhythm on his very own kind of drum, and who sometimes writes multidimensionally, and who makes a distinction between “I” and “i”. And something that i am actually quite bad at but anyway – i’m coming to a conclusion that it’s better to seek the right people to communicate with, than trying to make everyone understand. Trying to explain all that in words might fill books, so it might be more easy to find someone who can understand and follow the drum.
Here’s a post to share songs that are loosely related to autism. They don’t have to specifically mention autism, but be related to it in some fashion. It would be helpful if you include an explanation as to how you find it is related to autism and what the song means to you.
Yesterday, i learned about AURORA. She should not be missing here. Check out her magnificent voice and deeply emotional music.
This song, A Different Kind of Human (Youtube) (Invidious) talks about the sense of not belonging on this planet and it’s a dream about being taken home.
About Aurora herself, if she would fit any diversity categoriy is of course solely her business to not care about :-) (Youtube) (Invidious). She performs with plenty of whole-body gesturing which reminds me of Sinéad O’Connor.
I like this approach. “funny meme” aside, I think it is a good way of showing how much a certain language can affect how other people think and feel about a subject. Just read it THAT way and “being neurotypical” suddenly sounds like a disorder that isn’t fully compatible with the public, doesn’t it?...
Like other commenters, I also think that most neurodivergent people understand this very well. Their problem arises where they understand it even much further, like seeing the implications of such normalities. For example, that this must be one of the sources of so many misunderstandings between different cultures (and subcultures!). I can not just assume that everyone I meet speaks the same social language that I grew up in.
And is it not rude to assume that everyone’s mind works in the same way … or that others would camouflage in a die-cut way as someone they are not truely; is it not kind of intellectually flat to assume self-similarity, given that this is so obviously not the case – I mean divergent or not, everyone is just so engraved by their past experience that we have no true idea what mental process is going on inside another person unless we get to know them more closely.
e: or put in different words, what to do if the intangible feelings and emotions communicated by someone just don’t match their verbal message? Or worse, what to do when we cearly see someones cognitive dissonance but we are expected to somehow follow that (it’s an illness and following through would be self-denial)?
Someone was just bringing in an example of a situation that is difficult for them and which repeatedly upsets them. Remembering all that might make them present their upsettedness, which may be welcome for a deeper understanding and further processing toward clarity on both sides. No need to mirror that. :-)
edit: Maybe i should tell about this afterthought here; it’s a perspective that might be unknown to many here. I might still be off because of empathetic limits presented by the text-only medium, and I’m only a messenger who will be speaking an unknown language so don’t hit on me … :-)
Through the shamanic lens: This looks like an example of a “self-fulfilling prophecy”, in the way of calling in the presence of a spirit (spiritual entity) by telling the story of having encountered that entity before. So, @CarlsIII in its essence told a story of how they repeatedly meet a spirit which seeks to take their energy by telling them they were doing things not as expected, with the implicate impression that something would be “wrong” with them not having understood some unspoken message, while CarlsIII was just doing things the way CarlsIII would find them fitting. Others probably have read the story and could relate to it or feel with it, thus amplifying the inadvertent call. … Lo and behold, exactly such a spirit shows up. All it takes is someone who is susceptible to it and ready to serve for a demonstration. Invocations like this are common. Maybe this can help build awareness.
You are using storytelling to convey a concept of a challenge, with different approaches where neither is suitable for everyone. A few easy to follow paragraphs that i enjoyed reading. You did well. (no ADD here)
One thought: as this is about serialising multi-dimensional information – did you ever think of drawing up such relations, as a mental helper scaffolding?
I can’t be the only one who absolutely hates the idea of a particle having two states at once, right? Is it just a personal thing or is it tied somehow to the fact that autistic people generally have more binary thinking?...
I like to think of it in this way. They have a mathematical model of a thing which works by supposing the thing is in two states at once as long as its true state has not been determined. That just means that it is actually irrelevant what state a thing is/was in, or if the thing even exists/existed (!), as long as it didn’t interact with anything (or is being observed which implies an interaction).
Does the moon exist when you turn your back at it and close your eyes? --> It might not, and it would not make a difference if it didn’t.
But why adapt to it in such a way? Isn’t it fucking rude to force someone to lie about their emotional state while remaining ignorant about how they are truely doing? I started to try and find short tacky answers also for the less favourable states, at leaast with people i meet regularly: “… somewhat difficult day”, “Oh, I’m exhausted” … “but I see/hope that you are doing well? / but you look tired, too?” – That might be a surprisingly easy attempt to a little non-smalltalk conversation, if they have the time.
I shall leave my own impression from the articles i read in the past days, in the direction of de-pathologisation.
It finally got me to know some about the “expert” criteria and method of assessment, and it’s just as i imagined. Luckily, i’m not alone in seeing that not only as clearly failing the clients and professionalism just the same, but in seeing the process of pathologising in itself as potentially harmful. The beliefs we surround ourselves become all too easily our absolute reality. I’ve been in a self-assessment process for years. That being completely disregarded just to get officialy labeled “dysfunctional”, can only be wholeheartedly rejected.
Quote from the DSM-5 article: “All of the following should be understood as a speculative story from a dominant cultural group about a minority cultural group presented with deep bias and without any attempt to understand how that minority cultural group perceives their differences.” – Thanks.
I’ll have to make a better distinction between “autism” and “neurodiversity”. That will serve to make peace with all those who take benefit from the dysfunctional label. It will also enable me to be in peace with the paradigm of this forum, that certainty about being autistic would require said pathologising assessment.
That said, i can identify with how people like Janae Elisabeth describe nerodiversity in such a way that it makes me fairly confident in describing myself as neurodivergent. There may be a great variability in traits and their strenghts from person to person, and i might fall on the lower end. One guy with an “Asperger’s” diagnosis once told me that he’d think i was “more autistic than he is”. Well, who cares.
… But i care! I’m still not sure what to call my mental states which i formerly called “autistic”. I learned that it might just be something which also appears in autism – an active form of shutdown. I can actually use such a state to shut out all external influence, so that i can concentrate on one thing without my mind getting into useless chatter because of the distractions from whatever spirit enters my field. – It is otoh certainly a trauma avoidance reaction, and it’s difficult to get out of it.
I’d be interested if other ND folk have also observed what looks like a higher than usual percentage of displaced people or people moving abroad or living in a multicultural background in their families?...
Can only speak for my close environment; i once discovered a place where there were people of a kind that i had not known before, and they appealed to me. That place happened to be abroad, and almost all those people were also foreigners … then that place gave me the spiritual kick in the ass, and that’s why i kept returning in the beginning. Then it seems, i mainly went back there because nothing is really required to “function” and it’s kind of open space some way remote from the noise. Little did i know of neurodiversity when i started to enjoy solitude. Since the virus psychosis it seems ever more like a safe space, and actually i’m more stuck and alien there than anything. Flip side: nothing really functions, no supportive structures possible, and that is kind of everywhere, so feeling at home nowhere, at the moment. … Yes, i believe that many of the people who regularly go there do it because they can remain mostly unbothered by the local citizen’s cultural expectations (i.e. most have none toward a bunch of “dirty hippies”). Not all is ND but i do meet some.
You are correct that downvoting is kind of pointless.
On the other hand, there has been a bunch of accounts attending this forum lately which appear to act in bad faith (e.g. pathologising and not being interested in the ND point of view, stirring up emotions, sealioning). Interacting with such people will likely lead to a fruitless discussion that just draws energy. These people could look up the non-pathologising resources which were posted already if they were interested.
We probably should be aware that there are indeed people who are really scared of any changes to their pathologic-normative competitive model of society. Scared so much that they will get to aggressive efforts to counteract any healing efforts. It probably boils down to the question, “what to do with cognitive dissonance?”
I’m now inclined to not argue/compete but just check someone’s sincerety by asking like, “what is your function in society and what would perhaps be your natural function according to your set of traits, and how can this serve a cure and sustainable future for human civilisation?” (thanks @BackOnMyBS for originally posting this link)
Re-posting and amending this with my other account, as this is supposed to be the more lucid one.
… And yeah, i am aware that the OP account we are responding to has to date only made this single comment in this forum.
I think that heavy moderation (moderators stepping in with warnings, locks, bans) should be a last resort. I wish for more soft moderation in that the regular subscribers could a job to really act as a kind of community they claim to be have been falsely labeled. Most such ill-informed opinions could be countered by pointing to previously made posts which contain some relevant links, for example.
Several users have brought to the moderation team’s attention that there is increasing toxicity within our community. During discussion, the mod team has agreed that there is a noticeable increase in toxicity Lemmy-wide, so it might not be limited to our community only....
I’d like to see more people acting like belonging to a real community. That is, mutual support/defense when we see a need, or jumping into an argument if we see there might be a misunderstanding we can help to clear. Real bad actors may be rare but the general misunderstanding is a frequent companion. Especially when something is upsetting, the feeling of being left alone with it can potentially draw energy for days to come.
An educating excerpt from an article i’m just reading:
There is an important distinction between arguing to “win” and dialogue to learn from each other. For nurturing the mutual trust needed for de-powered collaboration at human scale, it is helpful to distinguish five basic categories of beliefs:
Beliefs based on scientific theories backed by empirical evidence that we are intimately familiar with. Only a small minority of our beliefs fall into this category.
Beliefs based on scientific theories backed by empirical evidence that we are not intimately familiar with. If we are educated, a sizeable minority of our beliefs fall into this category.
Beliefs based on personal experiences and observations. For those who identify as Autistic, a significant number of beliefs held fall into this category.
Beliefs that represent explicit social agreements between specific people regarding communication and collaboration. For those who identify as Autistic, a significant number of beliefs held fall into this category, especially agreements with family, friends, and colleagues.
Beliefs based on what we have been encouraged to believe by parents, teachers, and friends, … and politicians and advertisers, etc. For those who do not identify as Autistic, the majority of beliefs held fall into this category.
All categories of beliefs are associated with some level of uncertainty regarding the validity and applicability to a specific context at hand. When people argue to “win”, they mostly rely on beliefs in category 5 (opinions). Such arguments are about dominance, they are not open and honest dialogues.
(Healing from Autistic Trauma by Jorn Bettin)
… So, next time someone tells us that all “opinions” ought to be valued the same … ;-)
fwiw, here is an essay that speaks about exactly this same thing but it does take some more words and referances to get a message against pathologising across. It’s a whole series of essays.
I agree 100% with it, would just have chosen a somewhat different language.
Late reply but for those who read this later: careful when wanting to know what is “the norm”. It’s social ideals, mostly. (And if it were statistics, where would we draw the line and why … homosexual … disorder?) – Yet luckily, “disorder” means illness, while a non-valueing statistical out of the ordinary would rather be called “divergent”.
Relevant quote from the article:
Whilst [neurodivergent] traits were celebrated in the modernist era, they increasingly began to show up as problems in the Britain during the 1980s – meaning that something had changed in British social normativity. Interestingly, according to critical psychiatrist Sam Timimi and colleagues, this largely happened in light of the rise of the neo-liberal market system, and in particular the services economy. In particular, this economic shift began to alter the notion of the ideal male: rather than being fixed in focus and obsessive, men increasingly now had to forever shift into new roles and to constantly sell one’s “self” in order to fit in. Members of the workforce, in other words, now had to become increasingly agile, flexed, narcissistic, and hyper-social in order to succeed and be valued – and this economic drive became reflected in social normativity at all levels of society.
I’m learning. Do you? This implies it takes time. Glad we can end this breathtaking conversation with a win-win.
I truely have no intention to beat anyone in the domineering game. I’m being snarky, tho.
Well, actually i know … but i need some time to express it in words. 😄 I’ll do it my way, which means that i will just keep editing this text as i get inspired....
Hello, welcome!
[Hey something happens while i am mentally somewhere else! 😃]
> exchange neurodivergent thoughts… – yes please do so, even if it seems there is nothing much going on here.
I had a couple of times lately when i thought i could post about a thing that i was reading/learning about … then got distracted by thoughts, “would it fit, would it generate the kind of feedback i seek” … so i still didn’t, and this place is still so asleep. There are people listening, and i know it’s generally only a small fraction of the userbase actually creating new posts. Especially here where it seems not so clear what to put in. Many will engage with comments though, whenever someone takes the initiative.
That said, i should probably take some time to re-phrase this post a bit, and then talk about the stuff i learned, even if it’s just some re-posting.
Btw., i sympathise a lot with your late comments in the Autism forum. Moved me to look deeper into the de-pathologising side of things. “Probably one of my people” feeling. :-)
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Anyone figure out what the fundamental difference between autistic and NT brains is?
We know that we behave and think differently. We generally have more difficulty with social situation and are hypersensitive to sensory input. But to me, these seem like impacts of a fundamental difference. For example, we have social difficulties in NT environments because something with our neurotype is different. What is that...
A giraffe doing a handstand on mars because why not (lemmy.world)
Why does no one understand me, I make no sense in this world :(
I try everything I can, music, animation, art, programming, even Sports yet no one understands me!...
Dynamic List of Autism-Related Songs. Please add songs!
Here’s a post to share songs that are loosely related to autism. They don’t have to specifically mention autism, but be related to it in some fashion. It would be helpful if you include an explanation as to how you find it is related to autism and what the song means to you.
A different point of view (shamelessly stolen from an imgur dump) (i.imgur.com)
I like this approach. “funny meme” aside, I think it is a good way of showing how much a certain language can affect how other people think and feel about a subject. Just read it THAT way and “being neurotypical” suddenly sounds like a disorder that isn’t fully compatible with the public, doesn’t it?...
deleted_by_author
The Death of the Internet as a Haven for People with Autism (slate.com)
cross-posted from: radiation.party/post/130898
Autism and Quantum Mechanics
I can’t be the only one who absolutely hates the idea of a particle having two states at once, right? Is it just a personal thing or is it tied somehow to the fact that autistic people generally have more binary thinking?...
deleted_by_author
[Helpful Resource] Lost in Translation: The Social Language Theory of Neurodivergence (Part 1 and 2) (autietraumageek.medium.com)
A de-pathologising and enabling explanation of typical neurodivergent perception and expression culture....
Neurodivergency, multicultural families, displacement - is there a connection?
I’d be interested if other ND folk have also observed what looks like a higher than usual percentage of displaced people or people moving abroad or living in a multicultural background in their families?...
deleted_by_author
Tankies reaction to Beehaw removing itself from Lemmy -- "When you adopt an anti-communist stance, you pave the way for unhealthy social trends to takeover" also apparently Beehaw are fascists? (sh.itjust.works)
On Toxicity within Our Community and Lemmy in General
Several users have brought to the moderation team’s attention that there is increasing toxicity within our community. During discussion, the mod team has agreed that there is a noticeable increase in toxicity Lemmy-wide, so it might not be limited to our community only....
On Self-Diagnosis (lemmy.dbzer0.com)
So, what is this place supposed to be? (and NAQ) (sh.itjust.works)
Well, actually i know … but i need some time to express it in words. 😄 I’ll do it my way, which means that i will just keep editing this text as i get inspired....