@snek@lemmy.world avatar

snek

@snek@lemmy.world

“Once you’ve been to Gaza, you’ll never stop wanting to beat Benjamin Netanyahu to death with your bare hands.”

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snek,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Funny how this meme is yet another reminder.

snek,
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And an advocate of Swexit

snek, (edited )
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Israel is actually sending more food and supplies into Gaza right now than anyone, and it’s ridiculous to say that they are intentionally starving people when they are the ones bringing in the food.

500 trucks used to go in on a daily basis. “Aid” (provided by a number of agencies and counties and not Israel) that had to be painfully inspected by Israel has been far below that. In other words, Israel actually withheld aid from Gazans, despite “allowing it in”.

Here is a good article that describes how less than 200 trucks were allowed in every day despite a daily

It’s Israel doing genocide and trying to get away with dirty lawyer tactics.

(not interested in a discussion with you, just adding this fact based piece of evidence here, because people deserve to know that that is inaccurate)

snek,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

I see. Sorry on my end as well. I think it’s thick-headed of me to assume everyone else is at fault for misunderstanding it, when instead it may have just come off like that.

Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me.

snek,
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Who stones women to death for math? 😬

snek,
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I don’t think Hamas forces people to stay in places to be killed lol

Do some Palestinians ignore warnings? Yeah I think some decided they’d rather die together as a family with dignity and not risk the risky roads to the “safe zone” and die instead on the streets. I hope you never have to make such a choice in your life…

But no, I don’t think it’s a widespread phenomena to stay in harm’s way… Except when Israel put harm all around you.

It’s funny because it’s literally Israel that orders people into a safe zone then bombs them there…

What is your source? Curious.

snek,
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I’m sorry, are you pretending not to know this? 😬

Since you know so much about Hamas.

snek,
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Right. Well, I’ll be socratic too and ask: Have you tried Google?

snek,
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They are democratic hence can’t be wrong. They can’t be wrong because they’re democratic.

Sounds totally logical!

I was wrong about most, turns out Norway also has a colonial history lol.

snek, (edited )
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Your basic logic is:

  • Democracies don’t commit genocide
- Israel is a democracy
- Hence Israel cannot commit genocide

Not only is the idea of Israel being a democracy questionable at best, but also your logical reasoning is flawed.

I’m not saying you’re right or wrong, I’m saying your logic is bad.

Edit: formatting

snek,
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Funny how Gaza is not on that map lol

snek,
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The democratic country of Ireland got tricked? Hmm. What makes the UK trick-averse?

snek,
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You made the claim about Hamas, you provide the evidence.

snek,
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I just don’t think the violence should stop until Hamas is gone and the area can be rebuilt safely.

Do you think they can actually remove Hamas with this strategy they are using now?

snek, (edited )
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

With the ‘early warning’ procedure the Israeli army would force local Palestinians to approach the homes of militants and tell them to surrender.

That is what Israel outlawed.

Which part of this is acceptable to you? Which part of forcing a civilian Palestinian to enter a military area or battle zone is acceptable to you?

Here are some examples of Israel using Palestinians as a human shield (either under the definition or not):

  • “In 2004, a 13-year-old boy, Muhammed Badwan, was photographed tied to an Israeli police vehicle in the West Bank village of Biddu being used as a shield to deter stone-throwing protesters.” source: Wikipedia source from below)

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-HmqxMYr8AUQ%2FTrSI9g3tx8I%2FAAAAAAAAAYk%2F_6MPa0Azc0M%2Fs1600%2FIsrael_13_year_old_boy.JPG&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=04bbf39d7325be264c326ee2533cd48518249852e5100c544f46ef99340c3504&ipo=images

  • “On Friday, 13 May 2022, at around 6:00 A.M., Israeli troops, including Special Police Unit forces, entered the al-Hadaf neighborhood in Jenin. They stopped by the home of the extended Mer’eb family, blew up the door of Muhammad and Manal Mer’eb’s apartment on the first floor, and called for the couple’s son Mahmoud (20) to come out. The parents came out with three of their children – ‘Ahd (16), Fares (9) and 'Abd a-Rahman (4). Mahmoud stayed in the apartment. Two of Muhammad’s brothers, their mother Khairiyah (64), and their wives and children – 12 people in total – stayed in their apartments on the top floor.” Shortly after the family members came outside, armed Palestinians began firing at the forces. An exchange of fire ensued, in which Mahmoud Mer’eb also participated, firing from inside the apartment. After about three hours, the family members on the top floor also came outside, and then the forces fired at least six missiles at the house. One of the armed Palestinians, Daoud Zubeideh, a resident of Jenin Refugee Camp, and Special Police Unit commander Noam Raz sustained critical injuries in the exchange of fire. Both later died of their wounds. Testimonies collected by B’Tselem’s field researcher indicate that during their attempt to draw Mahmoud outside, the forces used his parents, his sister ‘Ahd and his grandmother as human shields: they stood his father Muhammad and his sister ‘Ahd between the military jeeps and the armed Palestinians who were firing at them, leaving the two unprotected and exposed to gunfire; they ordered his mother Manal to go into the house – which was at the center of the exchange of fire – in order to persuade Mahmoud to come out and bring them the military robot they had sent towards the house; and finally, after Manal failed at the task they had assigned her, they ordered his grandmother to go inside, too, to try and convince Mahmoud to turn himself in. source: B’Tselem

https://www.btselem.org/sites/default/files/styles/1200x440/public/2022-06/20220613_human_shields_in_jeninn_0.jpg

https://www.btselem.org/sites/default/files/styles/235x340/public/2022-06/ahed_mereb_next_to_her_home.jpg
  • Or this one caught on video: “DURA, West Bank, Jan 16 (Reuters) - A Palestinian shop owner said Israeli troops used him as a human shield to protect themselves during a raid on the town of Dura in the occupied West Bank.” source: Reuters

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/cf372133-6652-4687-8236-b9bb56954216.jpeg

And here is some more on this from Wikipedia:

According to B’tselem, the IDF repeatedly used Palestinians as human shields. This practice became military policy during the Second Intifada, and was only dropped when Adalah challenged the practice before Israel’s High Court of Justice in 2002. However, the IDF persisted in using Palestinians in its ‘neighbor procedure’, whereby people picked at random were made to approach the houses of suspects and persuade them to surrender, a practice which arguably placed the former’s lives in danger. The court ruled in October 2005 “that any use of Palestinian civilians during military actions is forbidden, including the ‘prior warning procedure’.” (link below)

You don’t like this website, fine… here is:

Edit: added pictures. Edit: fixed some formatting + reuters link

snek,
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And how will that look for the Palestinians there “in a few years’ time”? 🤔

snek,
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My logic is that a military target and a fair warning is sufficient to negate any charge of intentional bombing of civilians and therefore there is no genocide taking place in Israel.

Too bad it’s still a war crime to bomb a hospital in this way, even if the IDF (notice how it’s them who decide what is a target and what is not) say it’s a military target. Also too bad that the “warnings” you’re talking about are minutes, chaotic, and don’t reach all citizens especially since Israel keeps cutting off internet and cellular. They don’t do it adequately, on purpose, and frankly it seems like people have been trying to show you this but you dismiss their facts and evidence as “being tricked”.

snek,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

You claimed that they shoot women for learning math despite there actually being women in Hamas.

You then claimed that you just exaggerated, but only to make the connection between radical Islamism and Hamas.

Then when the evidence you showed doesn’t show Hamas stoning anyone nor adopting the kind of Islam we’d expect of ISIS or the Taliban, you jump to a totally different example with a sassy “Anyhow!”

The point you’re making about Hamas is fine: they are awful dictators, they treat people who oppose them like that. But what I’d like to know is why you are trying to generalize and paint Hamas in a different picture. Also, playing on Islamophobic tropes… interesting, why? They already suck enough, you just have to say real examples directly. And on top of that, almost no one on lemmy will like Hamas or support them in any way, yet in every discussion with you, it starts to be clear that you simply converge to Hamas even though we all dislike them just as much as you do. But that wasn’t good enough maybe?

snek,
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Because I’m not playing these BS games with you anymore 😊

snek,
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It’s not a war crime if there’s a legit military target and a reasonably tailored warning.

It is when it’s disproportionate and kills tens of civilians and endangers their lives further by destroying infrastructure… and the “reasonably tailored warning” is not reasonable nor tailored.

That’s where we disagree, it seems.

People have tried and failed to show me where the IDF has failed to warn

I remember giving you one such example where the IDF did not warn anyone, but you told me I was “being tricked in real time.”

Let’s see you refute these by anything other than the equivalent of “Trust me, bro, the IDF said so!”

The Washington Post: “A sniper from the Israel Defense Forces shot the women “without warning” and “in cold blood” Saturday, the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem, an ecclesiastical office for the Latin Catholics in the region, said in a statement earlier. The two were sheltering at the Holy Family Parish, where the majority of Christian families in Gaza have taken refuge during the war, it said.”

Euronews: Other video showed the chaotic aftermath in the hospital - among those present was Mohammad Lafy, who survived the mosque strike. “We were sitting in the house, they hit the mosque directly next to the house without warning,” he said.

France24: The campaign on the territory run by Islamist group Hamas has killed at least 230 Palestinians, including 65 children, Gaza health authorities say, and displaced tens of thousands from their homes. Many bereaved relatives say their family members are being bombed without warning, while others say their telephones have rung, but they were not given enough notice. This was the case on Saturday for Jawad Mehdi, the owner of Jala Tower in Gaza City that was until Saturday home to the offices of two foreign media outlets. Mehdi said an Israeli intelligence officer warned him he had one hour to ensure the building was evacuated, and his plea for “10 extra minutes”, broadcast live on television, was denied.

I think what you do is call them “reports” when they collide with your view matching the IDF, but you call it “truth” when it’s an IDF report, an army that literally violates international and humanitarian law all the time with almost perfect impunity. Please…

I could still find Israel to be not credible, however it has anti corruption practices in place and competent, legitimate law enforcement and military justice apparatuses, under the command of elected representatives, and those institutions are working to prosecute incitement to genocide and war crimes.

This cannot be true with 75 years of documented fucking Apartheid and ethnic cleansing. You’re not being honest if you ignore their human rights violations detailed by Amnesty, B’Tselem, the UN, WHO, etc, etc, etc…

snek,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t see any other way forward in Gaza in the short term. Do you?

Literally a fucking ceasefire.

It will look awful for a while but with light at the end of the tunnel.

Except for the Palestinians who needlessly had to die

The foundations of the three largest cities were turned to Swiss Cheese, and are completely uninhabitable from a structural standpoint.

Thanks to Israel.

I imagine the cities must essentially be paved over and rebuilt.

Literally admitting that Israel destroyed homes and infrastructure: a fucking war crime.

Hamas should have thought of these innocent people who would suffer the reconstruction before it sold out their foreseeable futures to kill 1,300 Israeli civilians and first repsonders. I know Hamas was super popular in Palestine on October 8.

Would you like just for one second in your life hold Israel (a so-called democracy) up to the same standards you hold Hamas? If Hamas can’t and shouldn’t kill 1,300 Israeli civilians (btw like 1/3 or something were military personnel, and the number was revised down to “1000+” whatever that means), then Israel shouldn’t do the barbaric crap they are doing now that I have no words for.

snek,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

I appreciate you.

Thanks, wish I could say the same about you.

snek, (edited )
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

First of all, about that woman:

You said:

In 2022 two prisoners were left in the front of some police cars while their family members started firing at the police, and they forced the mother to go inside the house to try and persuade the shooters to surrender (and retrieve a robot). The three were unharmed.

  1. Here is some of her testimony:

    I was terrified, especially when some bullets fired by the Palestinians hit the jeep, maybe five bullets. The shooting intensified, and I ducked because I was afraid of being hit, but the officer in the jeep shouted at me to stand up and raise my head.

  2. You also claim that they were prisoners. Instead, they were Muhammad (the father) and his sister ‘Ahd (aged 16).

  3. They threatened them with demolishing their house if they don’t cooperate as human shields:

    I heard loud blasts and later realized they were the missiles the Border Police fired at our house. One of the officers pressed a phone to my ear and told me I had a call. There was an ISA agent on the line. He wanted me to persuade Mahmoud to turn himself in and threatened that otherwise, they’d bring the house down on top of him.

You are deliberately rephrasing it to make it sound less awful but it’s not working…

I’ll grant you your loose definition of “human shields” for the five people you’ve described and where there is five j assume there is a hundred.

ROFL

Palestinian’s and human rights org’s definition of Israel using human shields: IDF soldiers grab them and tie them to a truck or force them to be in a cross-fire or approach items that may be bombs or go into the homes of terrorists, totally fine!

Israel’s definition of Hamas using human shields: literally a Gazan just making food in their home while their daughter plays in the next room… by simply existing in their own house.

These people are five examples of survivors who lived in horror, human rights organizations tried to document their plight. These are classic examples of the use of human shields (unlike ‘proximate shielding’ which is actually not a textbook example of human shield use). Classic examples and you still can’t see it.

Edit:

So I’m 2004 we’ve got one bootlicker MP assaulting his single teenage ward by tying him to the jeep. Horrible judgment.

So a confirmed use of human shields.

In 2022 two prisoners were left in the front of some police cars while their family members started firing at the police, and they forced the mother to go inside the house to try and persuade the shooters to surrender (and retrieve a robot). The three were unharmed.

So a confirmed use of human shields.

In 2016 the shop owner was arrested and then the two soldiers walked behind him through a crowd of rock throwers instead of one in front, one behind, which is how a prisoner should be transported with two escorts.

So a confirmed use of human shields.

It’s not “a loose case of human shield use” because you rephrase it into “walked behind him through a crowd of rock throwers”…
By this logic, murder is just “some knife that found itself thrown into a man’s chest”. Fucking hell, dude… the lengths you go to to make the IDF look okay… I’m starting to wonder, is this psychological? Seriously, like not trying to make you look bad or anything, but… you’re driving totally rational people here insane with your circular logic.

I’m sorry. I can’t help you. Back to no talking. Bye!

snek,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Give them rights… why is this so hard for Israel??? Why is their “self-determination” tied to the complete erasure and genocide of another group of people!!!

Eh screw it I’m out, I’m done, like done with this for good. I gave you a chance, said to myself that this guy/gal have some hope for scepticism in them. I think I was wrong.

snek,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

I bolded them for you. There’s not much more I can do. 🤷

If it’s foolish of me to trust Israel’s institutions, it’s still more foolish to trust Gaza’s institutions.

Gaza’s institutions according to you: any news outlet that’s not the IDF, including France24, the BBC, the CNN, The Guardian, AP, Al-Jazeera… and certainly all human rights organizations like B’Tselem or Doctors Without Borders, and also the personal testimonies of any Palestinian in Gaza, except if they agree with the IDF

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