solarbabies

solarbabies, 3 months ago (edited 2 months ago)

Edit: Clearly none of you have ever heard of Horseshoe theory. Try reading a little before spouting harmful opinions on the Internet.

Did I say it was fascist to say “Don’t go”? No I said implying that it’s fine to exclude everyone who thinks differently, is an example of why right wingers accuse left leaning folks (who tend not to be fascists), of being fascists.

The point being that disengaging from potentially productive dialog with potential allies for arbitrary reasons, while not fascism, tends to lead to the perception of strict, unwavering, inerrant ideology, which looks very similar on the surface.

If there are 5 gays, 1 bi, and 1 trans person on an island of straight people, I believe they should all try to see past each other’s differences in order to unite for their common advancement, rather than saying “oh you don’t like how we do it? then don’t go”

solarbabies, 3 months ago

What you said isn’t exclusionary. What the commenter I replied to said, is.

And I already replied to other comments in this thread well before yours, stating what I’d like to see done. Please see those replies below since I don’t feel the need to repeat myself.

solarbabies, 2 months ago (edited 2 months ago)

Lmao you think I don’t know the Onion is satire? c’mon… you think I was born yesterday?

Satire is just as effective, if not more effective, at conveying points as anything else. Hence why comedians alive today are the only living philosophers.

When did I classify this as “proof”? I’m waiting…

solarbabies, 2 months ago

Nope the exact opposite lol I’m excluding myself until that minority sees that it’s not helping them gain acceptance.

solarbabies, 2 months ago

I never drew that line, you did for your strawman argument. Typical lib response tbh. I never said there are “acceptable queers” and “not acceptable queers”. I said we need to have standards for what is considered acceptable in the context of public parades.

Conservatives are willing to define “being trans near children” as a sex crime, mostly b/c of the lies and misconceptions they get told/reinforced by conservative politicians and pastors about LGBT+, would you agree?

And what do you think those politicians and pastors use as “evidence” that we are all sexual deviants? If you think images and photos of sexual behavior at Pride parades is not one of them, you’re mistaken. It’s a public display, and it’s easy for them to say “why aren’t these people classified as sex offenders for doing such heinous acts in public?”

I stated a simple fact: pride parades currently hurt our image. People in this thread can’t seem to accept that.

solarbabies, 2 months ago

Lmao can you even hear yourself speak?

Try walking up to a conservative asking for their acceptance while wearing a nipple piercing, a leather strap-on and a gag ball, and see how they respond…

solarbabies, 2 months ago

noted

solarbabies, 2 months ago

You see what you did there? You equated having slightly higher standards and self respect in public (regardless of what you do in private) with conforming to extreme puritanical standards. These are not the same.

Read this and then answer my question: If the purpose of Pride parades is to gain acceptance for the LGBT+ community, who are we trying to gain acceptance from? Did you ever once stop to think about your audience, and what might help them understand you a little easier?

A Pride parade is a performance, and the audience is conservatives. How well do you think our reviews are going lately?

solarbabies, 2 months ago

If you don’t give a shit what cishets think, then IMO you need to exit the fantasy world you live in and wake up to the real world where trans people are still getting fucking murdered…

This is what pisses me off about so many members of this community, you like to pretend we’ve already won and that cishets aren’t currently threatening to take over this country and reverse the policies we worked so hard to pass for the last 50 years!

Come back when you’re ready to have a productive conversation about the advancement of our collective rights, and not your selfish desire to feel good in public no matter what others say.

solarbabies, 2 months ago

This is for you too my friend.

Get fucking real.

solarbabies, 2 months ago

I don’t need you to care about my opinion. I need you to care about more members of the community than just yourself. Which I can see is impossible for you.

solarbabies, 2 months ago (edited 2 months ago)

I’m a coward?

Is it being a coward to go up against the prevailing viewpoint in a community, and receive tons of downvotes while asking community members to consider whether the actions they’re taking are helping or hurting them?

Is it being a coward to face those who would oppose you head on (e.g. cishets), and try to engage with them productively, instead of pretending they don’t exist?

Before you resort to name calling, take a look in the mirror, my friend.

And if you want a d*CK measuring contest: I’m bi. My mom is bi. My sibling is trans. My cousin is trans. What’s ur point?

One more thing: Saying leftists have guns too… starting to sound fascist to you yet??

solarbabies, 2 months ago (edited 2 months ago)

You don’t see the glaring contradiction in what you just said?

How can the point of Pride be to “tolerate everyone with no exceptions,” while at the same time “never tolerate the intolerant”? You can’t have both!

The reason being: what criteria can you possibly use to decide who is “intolerant”?

Let me give you an example with the answers I assume you’d give… Have you ever heard the Chinese parable of “Good Luck, Bad Luck, Who Knows” before? This example is similar…

• Q: Is a gay man allowed at Pride? A: in general, yes
• Q: What if you learn they don’t like furries? A: then no, they can’t.
• Q: What if they want to be accepting of furries but they don’t know how? A: then sure, yes, let’s discuss.
• Q: What if they killed a furry once? A: then no, absolutely not!
• Q: What if they went to prison for 20 years for their crime, realized what they did was wrong, and decided to make a concerted effort every day to be more positive & inclusive, which is why they now attend Pride every year and donate to LGBT+ organizations in honor of the person they killed? A: well then yes, clearly they’re an ally. they can come!
• Q: Okay, what if they don’t like leather strap ons? A: ah, then no…

You see how this could keep going forever?

You’re either inclusive or you’re not. End of story.

solarbabies, 2 months ago

Lmao you just did it again 🤣 you built up another strawman so you could knock it down 🤣

The reason being: No, I’m not talking about that small minority of conservatives at all.

YOU are the one being judgmental here, not them.

Did you know in fact most conservatives aren’t crazy diabolical evil people? That’s a perception leftists tend to have b/c they don’t have any real conservative friends, they just get angry about stuff they see on the media and attribute it to all conservatives, saying “how could they support this kind of rhetoric? everyone who watches or supports this news source must be evil too!”

Turns out when you actually try and talk to them, they’re people too.

Only when you dehumanize your perceived enemies, do they actually become the inhumane enemies you wished never to create.

solarbabies, 2 months ago

You’re right, we should all stop watching George Carlin b/c he’s been dead since 2008. Nothing he says could be relevant anymore, right?

solarbabies, 2 months ago (edited 2 months ago)

I don’t think you’re imagining things, I think you’re misinterpreting conservative’s tendency to have selfish priorities as evil, because they don’t consider you. When it’s purely them acting in their own self-interest; a difference in ideology. (Which you have judged and labeled, based on the actions of a few extremists.)

Have you ever heard of this book called the Bible? I know it’s taboo to bring up anywhere in LGBT+ communities, and rightly so! It’s mostly full of shit.

But for all the shitty, inconsistent takes Christianity has to offer, “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you” was one of the better ones… and most leftists can’t even begin to imagine how.

And let me clarify: I’m not saying leftists should be tolerant of intolerant people’s actions.

I’m saying they should consider being tolerant of letting them into the room for discussion… b/c avoiding that is what blocks any meaningful progress from ever being made. Whereas if they would just do that, they might start to see a lot more positive outcomes, for both sides, a lot more quickly.

A smart enough radical leftist can destroy any conservative argument against LGBTQ+, would you agree?

And it’d be beneficial to the community at large if more bigots learned, by being loved and accepted while being told they’re wrong, to be more loving and accepting.

To me the unwillingness to have any discussions appears to be a reflection of the lack of confidence and conviction leftists actually have in their viewpoints - e.g. they preach “love and acceptance” while inciting more division and intolerance.

I’d be happy to be proved wrong on that, so that history stops repeating itself. Casting aside bigots just confirms their beliefs and strengthens their conviction that “they were right about X all along”. Hence the vicious cycle I’m referring to.

And if you want an example of someone who actually succeeded at what I’m talking about… look no further than Daryl “Motherfuckin’ G” Davis, the man who convinced 200 KKK members to leave.

Every other Christian looks like a fucking pre-nascent embryo of a person compared to this badass. I’d say he should’ve been declared a Saint by the church, but fuck them and their titles, he’s better than that.

At the end of the day, if you want to make progress, you have to start with what we have in common. And what do leftists have in common with right wingers? They both https://www.perplexity.ai/search/has-there-been-h7Lz0J.zSuOm.o3facg8Rg#0.

To quote the 2018 research paper cited there:

Liberals show slightly more concern for their partners’ outcomes compared to conservatives (study 1), and in study 2 this relation is supported by a meta-analysis (r = .15). However, in study 1, political ideology did not relate to cooperation in general. Both Republicans and Democrats extend more cooperation to their in-group relative to the out-group, and this is explained by expectations of cooperation from in-group versus out-group members.

solarbabies, 2 months ago (edited 2 months ago)

I reject this theory outright. Intolerance exists everywhere, even among the “tolerant” - in other words, you dig deep enough and you’ll always find something the “tolerant” group doesn’t like about other groups.

For example - and I’m not necessarily saying this is bad! - many so-called “tolerant” leftists won’t tolerate certain jokes, certain protected speech and certain people (e.g. cops, billionaires, evangelicals, men with “traditional” views on women, etc), sometimes even going so far as to “cancel” them.

That silencing, whether you believe it is deserved/justified or not, is what right wingers view as intolerance of their ideology, and it’s what is partially responsible for driving further division and polarization between our groups.

Yet I am the only leftist I know who is willing to admit that leftists exhibit characteristics of intolerance.

The only thing that really matters is cooperation. Because we are tribal creatures, we only look to our “in-group” for cooperation. When one tribe grows larger than another, their version of tolerance (i.e. the things they’re willing to tolerate) becomes the dominant view.

The Holocaust was an example of the most extreme polarization ever observed in human history. There were many factors that led to this, and claiming that those who “tolerated” Nazis were responsible for the rise of “intolerance” implies they had the power to stop them. When for all practical purposes, once the critical mass of the “in group” (Nazis) had already been reached, their level of intolerance for other groups was so extreme that cooperation between groups/tribes became impossible.

I’m of the opinion that intolerance is a symptom of the disease of misunderstanding.

The more we understand each other, the more intolerance can dissipate. And this view is not a fantasy. It is supported by centuries of research into human behavior.

In short, one thing we know with absolute confidence is that as humans we fear what we do not understand. For that reason, I urge those who can’t see a path toward forgiving their enemies to take the most radical action imaginable: to try.

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. :) I hope you have a good day too.

solarbabies, 2 months ago

Hahaha you’re doing the strawman fallacy, my friend.

You’ve built up a straw man in your head so you can knock it down.

Every one of your assumptions is incorrect.

This is one of my favorite Onion articles of all time, and I refer to it frequently when I’m on this topic.

How bout you take a break from judging and hating on internet strangers for no reason?

solarbabies, 2 months ago

I think you might be the one needing therapy, my friend, if you are so quick and eager to judge strangers you don’t know on the Internet. 😊

Otherwise such erratic behavior gone unchecked might lead to a lifetime of frustration due to an inability to make friends or make progress toward your goals. 😊

I am content with my life, can you say the same?

And news flash, genius: by your definition, everyone is a bigot because we all fall into the trap of dehumanizing others.

Ever heard of the saying, “Hurt people, hurt people.”?

Silent bigots are turned into dangerous bigots when they are subject to bigotry themselves.

solarbabies, 2 months ago

And how is the LGBT+ movement doing today?

Hmm, let’s see… the ACLU reports 479 anti-LGBT bills currently being considered to be passed as laws in the U.S. in 2024.

Maybe, just maybe, it’s time to wake the fuck up and realize the current strategy is NOT 👏 FUCKING 👏 WORKING 👏

Wake up and smell the flowers, because they’re still growing on the fresh graves of my murdered trans friends.

solarbabies, 2 months ago (edited 2 months ago)

You seem to be under the impression I think pride parades are a bad thing in general b/c I said I dislike how they are now.

Did the strategy you mentioned work well for its historical moment? FUCKING YES. Absolutely. You’re right that we made tons of progress that was previously unprecedented.

But guess what? We’re in a completely different historical moment today… and now we are regressing.

I argue that Conservatives today are more polarized and therefore more dangerous than the ones you knew 25 years ago.

And do you know how I know we’re regressing? This year, the ACLU reports 479 anti-LGBT bills currently being considered to be passed as laws in the U.S. in 2024.

That’s why I’m making such a big deal… because you old sweeties who did a lot of hard work for all of us young queers are going to have to adapt to the new situation! Because the strategy that worked for the previous 25 years is NO 👏 LONGER 👏 SERVING 👏 US… And we must grow out of it, or risk facing the worst retaliation ever known to LGBT+ in the history of the US.

I’m telling you all your hard work is about to be undone, and you can’t stop judging, condescending, and blindly telling me I’m wrong about what’s clearly staring us all in the face…

So respectfully… grow up a little, please! We have work to do…

solarbabies, 2 months ago

I actually agree with you, pride parades are not the issue. Just one of many.

The real issue is leftists can’t cooperate with each other these days. We are too busy dividing each other into smaller and smaller “in-groups” and “out-groups” using arbitrary criteria no one can agree on, while conservatives are as loyal and united as ever.

We are all about to be f*cking steamrolled, especially if a certain orange man wins the next election.

That’s why I’m urging you to wake up. Not to try to be condescending. But because we have a lot of fucking work to do, and everyone in this thread seems convinced that things are just fine and dandy how they are!

solarbabies, 2 months ago (edited 2 months ago)

Ok, since you were nice to me in the last part, I’m going to try and be patient with you.

Let me try and summarize how this conversation went so far:

• me: I dislike how pride parades are now
• anon: I agree
• me: idk why you’re getting downvoted [insert obviously satirical article here, by THE most popular satirical news site in the US]
• you: ha! did you even read this so called proof? you certainly didn’t check the authenticity of the website.
• me: I never said it was proof. you think I was born yesterday?
• you: yeah sounds like you were b/c I’m pretty sure you literally searched this up just now.
• me: except I didn’t, I’ve known about it for years. stop being judgmental and hateful.
• you: okay, but you need to stop being judgmental and hateful too!

Now it’s my chance to reply. And I could say: show me one place in this entire thread where I’ve been judgmental or hateful of anyone here.

Have I been patronizing/condescending in some of my replies? Regrettably, yes, out of frustration at not getting my point across. But I never judged and I never hated on any of these passionate queers who are downvoting me to oblivion.

I’m trying to help you see that you were judging based on unwarranted assumptions, and now reacting defensively when I called you out for it.

So thank you for admitting you were judging. But please don’t accuse me of doing things I didn’t do.

Edit: And I was wrong about the Strawman in your case, I apologize. I’ve seen so many comments use it in this thread it all started to blur after a while. Your logical fallacies were Ad Hominem and False Comparison.

solarbabies, 2 months ago

I’ll admit I’m prone to strawman arguments like most everyone, but when I do, they are often born of others’ false equivalencies based on incorrect assumptions about what I said.

What I’m suggesting is not to break bread with oppressors to find out how we can make the LGBT community more palatable to them. I clearly didn’t get my point across if that’s what you thought.

Do you think Daryl Davis approached KKK members asking them how he could make African Americans more palatable to them?

Of course not. It’s not about changing us or any of our behavior, private or public. It’s about the fact that Pride should be a place to welcome people who are ready to be lovingly proven wrong, and finding a way to approach them where they feel comfortable sitting with us for a civil dialog, so that WE can change THEM.

I mean, if the LGBT community was really passionate about changing minds, you’d think they would once think about whose minds they’re trying to change!

Silent bullies turn into aggressive bullies when they feel attacked.

But they turn into allies when you approach them with humility and acceptance, while telling them they’re wrong. And I know I sound radical, but thrusting a bunch of leather strap ons in their faces and yelling “don’t like it? get fucked!” isn’t exactly my idea of a humble dialog! Is it for you?

Otherwise they will never listen. That’s all I’m arguing for here. Not for others to conform to my thinking. Not for anyone to accept my terms for what is acceptable queer behavior outside of Pride.

Outside of Pride, idgaf what any queers do and I don’t want to police them. I’m asking them to take a second to practice what they preach: consider the benefits of the larger group instead of being selfish at Pride.

solarbabies, 2 months ago (edited 2 months ago)

That’s kind of you to offer. Could you please let me know what you think of this?

Thank you for being willing to discuss it!

Edit: I previously wrote a longer part of this asking if you had advice for how to better approach this topic with the community but I already know the answer. I need to be more patient with folks and respond to their talking points directly instead of getting frustrated with them that they’re not understanding mine, even if they seem really off topic…

It’s actually surprising how much easier it is to talk to some conservatives than some leftists. Conservatives will just tell you what they think, and leftists will go on a thousand tangents before getting to the point 😅 I guess I’m learning here what it’s like talking to me, because I see everyone else making the same mistakes. Defaulting to extremes and accusing me of things I never said, without giving me the benefit of the doubt. Then again, that’s sort of how people on the Internet are in general… wdyt?