Their goals are not your goals: power and control in a coparenting dynamic
One issue I often see (and dealt with myself) is trying to truly understand that a narcissistic parent isn't doing what you think they are doing.
I deliberately avoid the "coparenting" label when the other parent is a narcissist because you can't coparent with someone whose goals are not to parent in the first place. (Look up parallel parenting for a better option.)
For a healthy parent, your goal is to care for your kids, teach them happiness, self-sufficiency, responsibility, and kindness.
For a narcissist, their only goal in life is to try to shore up their constantly eroding sense of self. Underneath everything, even under their own consciousness, they are utterly terrified. In their own minds, that terror justifies them in their behavior. The only way they believe they are worth anything is if they control what is around them.
Everything a narcissist does is to that end: to gain and keep control, and thereby self-value. There is no limit to what they will do to gain whatever control they can get. That's all they have.
That leaves you three choices: to control, to be controlled, or to make gaining control not worth it to the narcissist.
If you do the first indiscriminately, you become like them. The second alone leaves you a victim. Grey rock utilizes the third, and comes with its own risks.
When parenting with a narcissist, you have to find a balance of all three.
First, have a parenting plan that is a court order. Narcissists tend to fear and respect the law insofar as they can't manipulate it.
Second, stick to the plan without exception. That keeps them from finding weak links. That means you need to let go of control in defined ways. (It's emotionally difficult, but necessary.)
Third, dry up the source of drama. Don't give them any emotional reactions. That makes it worth less than it costs for them to push. It takes them a LONG time to learn that lesson, so be persistant and patient.
Finally, set up a system of self-care. Whatever gives you energy, build it into your life. You need to stay energized to survive.
It is possible to define the dynamic if you understand what they really want.
Co-parenting with a narcissist is a long game. Don't give up.
I've been in this for over a decade. I've had times of utter despair. But my kids are starting to demonstrate the healthy emotional tools I've fought to give them, and the truth is slowly coming out.
Don't give up. Just keep loving your kids, not engaging in the battles. Your kids will prevail!
When they mentioned the 5th lawyer, I teared up....Imagine if we all got that kind of support.
David Larsen, who beat his ex-wife with a baseball bat, stuffed her in a garbage can packed with snow, and, with their 3- and 6-year old daughters in tow, took her to a storage unit where he left her to die, causing her to lose her unborn baby and all her toes, 6 years later asks for visitation and a reduction in child support.
There is no end to the nerve that a narcissist will display. The difference between him and every other one is merely one of scope.
I found it helpful at one point of my recovery. It helped me take back my power. But all too often, I find it is used to downplay the trauma that is done by narcissists and the legal system.
When I chose to end my marriage and endure the years of hatred and pointless attacks, I was a survivor. When I had to raise children and watch them suffer narcissistic abuse from a painfully early age, I was a survivor.
But I watch my daughter sob about the damage her dad has done to her, and I realize we are victims. What this man did is horrible.
Things that are illegal at Guantanamo Bay are tolerated daily by a legal system that forces their victims to play nicely with perpetrators because of the misguided idea that it is "best for the children."
I watch my daughter struggle with self harm, self- isolation, eating disorders, and serious emotional issues because the courts don't want to be bothered trying to figure out what is actually best for the children.
And WE ARE VICTIMS.
First, victims of abusers and second of the people who are supposed to protect us from them.
Taking away our victim label buries the fact that crimes, supported and condoned by our legal process, are committed every hour on the children who most need our protection.
"Innocent until proven guilty" is one thing for crimes that have been committed in the past, but it's a whole other thing when it gives legal muscle to ongoing crimes.
How has your parenting changed, because the other parent is narcissistic?
I sit across from an old friend. We are about the same age, divorced about the same time. Catching up with her on our families, our jobs, our dating life (her case) and lack thereof (mine).
She starts talking about children. How they don't get to argue with parents. How she controls them. Wondering if I have a hard time controlling mine.
I sit there, listening to her, and suddenly, it's like seeing myself if I had never been abused. I would have been that controlling parent. But now....
When I first ended my marriage, I was desperate for knowledge. I read everything I could get my hands on about narcissists, their behaviour patterns, how to deal with them.
There wasn't as much as there is now. In the wake of Laci Peterson, the Susan Powell case was just starting to unfold. People were starting to pay attention in ways they never really had before.
I watched everything, read everything. Studied, lived and breathed it. I was desperate to counteract whatever genetic propensity for abuse was present in my children. In the middle of trying to heal, I was frantically trying to give my kids a safe place, teach them boundaries, the self confidence that I didn't have. I wanted to instill faith in them, because that was my strength during that time. I wanted to teach them to help people instead of wallow in pain, to use bad experiences to make them more compassionate instead of more manipulative, like their dad.
Knowing that he would attack any good rule I tried to set with them, knowing that his control-or-be- controlled dynamic was an underpinning to abuse, I wanted to be everything in a parent that he was not.
Rather than setting rules with punishments and enforcing them, I focused on teaching principles and showing natural consequences. I rarely called my children out on broken rules until they wanted something, or it proved damaging to themselves or others.
If a rule was to plug in your phone every night, I reminded them for awhile, then expected them to remember.
When my 12yo daughter decided the rule was stupid, and snuck phone time, I didn't fight with her. I simply got an app that automatically cut off internet at a certain time. When she complained, I explained that I had noticed that she wasn't being responsible, so the privilege of internet at certain times was taken away. If she tried to punish me for it, she lost more.
If they forgot an assignment at home, they had to work it out with their teachers themselves. If they needed my help dealing with bullies at school, I offered it, but let them drive what was to be done unless it got so bad I had to step in. Then I explained why I was stepping in.
When they didn't like their dad's rules, or wanted to go to a friend's birthday party on his time, I encouraged them to talk it over with him rather than stepping in.
The thing is, I don't know if that was the right thing. My oldest still made some really horrible decisions that I knew (probably still know) nothing about. Decisions with lasting consequences.
We still have had big fights over her thinking I was controlling.
She's rejected almost everything I believe in most.
But we were able to work through enough of it. She is still a really good kid. She is strong and confident in ways I'm not. Insecure in ways I'm not, too.
I don't know that I have made the right choices in raising her. Maybe trying to be a foil for abuse isn't the right way to go. I just don't know....
Looking across the table at my friend, I see how much my life has changed me as a parent and as a person. I really hope it's for the better.
Is the ex-spouse narcissistic, or genuinely abused?
I notice a few people on other subreddits for narcissism list things their "Nex" does that make me think they are not being honest about the situation.
It's not typical for narcissists to fake having been abused to the point of avoiding being around the spouse. I suspect a narcissist can't help but engage as often as possible for supply.
I mean, I suppose it's possible, but I don't think it's likely.
What that means is that people with narcissistic tendencies are infiltrating more popular narcissist support forums in order to gain attention.
The people that I suspect of this are often men, which means my own bias might be showing. Though I have seen many men post who ring true to me, and I've seen several women post who I suspect, so I don't know.
They tend to be relatively frequent posters, and the frequency doesn't go up or down much over time.
They also have a tone of anger and mockery in the way they talk about their ex-spouse. This is different anger than those who go through the anger phase of healing, and whom I find more believable.
At the same time, maybe I'm too limited in my view of how victims behave.
I will say this:
I don't think that mockery, derision, or contempt leads to healing. I think, even if you only vent it here, it still colors your survival and keeps you somewhat under the control of your abuser.
I don't think coparenting is survivable until you get to the point of genuinely not caring about your ex one way or the other.
I've seen some unfortunate advice in other subreddits about picking a "barracuda lawyer" to fight your narcissistic ex partner.
Bad idea.
But first, an anecdote.
The second time I went to court in my life, I was visibly pregnant. My lawyer was well respected in family law, and had many years under his belt. He was a partner in his own firm.
He had given me advice that was not what I wanted to hear. To keep my mouth shut unless directly spoken to by the judge. That my ex was entitled to visitation. I don't remember all of it, but I remember being numb. Sick. Terrified. My state of mind cycled rapidly through all three.
It was supposed to be a 15 minute temporary custody hearing. My husband had hired a female barracuda lawyer who had been running me down for over an hour to the judge while I sat there, silent. As did my lawyer for the most part.
I still remember the color of the table and the grain of the wood.
She had been gradually making wilder and wilder accusations. That I had hired a gang to beat him up. Vandalized his car. And now she was launching into my cheating ways, claiming that my husband didn't even know the child in my swollen belly was his. That I should be ordered to pay for an immediate paternity test. I think there were tears on my cheeks by then, but I'm not sure.
I remember being afraid that I would be ordered to subject myself to the invasive medical procedure. My pregnancy was already borderline risky due to blood pressure issues.
Finally, the judge turned to me and asked me a direct question. "Do you have any doubt whose child this is?"
"No, your honor." I shook my head.
He then turned to my husband's lawyer and said, "If he wants a paternity test, he can pay for it."
It took another hour or so to settle the rest of the accusations. He got nothing substantial from any of them, except a large invoice from his lawyer. Large enough that he settled out of court soon afterwards. He had spent all the money he had stolen from our tax returns in that one hearing on his barracuda lawyer.
I sometimes wonder now at the picture I must have made. Silent, trembling, pale as death, my head lowered and hands in my lap while the man I had pledged my life to painted me as a monster of the worst degree.
I do not recommend getting a barracuda lawyer, a shark lawyer, or any lawyer that advertises. I don't recommend letting anger or contempt color your legal proceedings or anything that could be brought before a judge.
Sometimes silence is the most poignant argument you can make. Silence while they spin filthy silk of nasty lies, hatred, anger, and fear. They will, inevitably, wind that silk around their own necks.
Some things require response, but make it calm, clear. Show fear. Show sorrow. Show pain. Don't show anger, hatred, viciousness.
When finding a lawyer, look for these things:
Someone who tells you hard truths, things you don't want to hear.
A firm that has built their reputation on putting the needs of the children first.
Someone with a history of domestic violence advocacy, if possible. They will be familiar with the tricks.
Someone with years of experience. It's more expensive, but it's worth the price.
Judges with experience know who they are talking to. They know which lawyers are nasty, which are marketers, and on what platforms they market themselves. They know which ones waste the court's time, which ones try to pull tricks. They will be influenced in their opinions of you based on who you hire.
As tempting as it might be, don't engage in the bitter fight. The calmer and more reasonable you make yourself look, the more things will eventually work out in your favor.
That starts with who you hire as your lawyer.
Our second daughter was born months after that session. He never did get a paternity test. She looks like me.
I was responding to someone and spent a long time typing this out, then thought it might be helpful to modify and post here.
Your ex may not have to expressly agree to things. If you're running ragged trying to force an agreement, you may still be owning too much of this. Talk this over with a lawyer before doing it, but you might want to try applying gray rock.
First, you need to realize that you are not responsible for coming to an agreement.
Think about that one for awhile. You have no obligation to do any more work than he does to come to an agreement.
That means that all that effort and running around, trying to make him make decisions is wasted effort. He's got you dancing like a puppet on strings, predictably using whatever power he has to control and manipulate you.
He's loving it.
Of course he is. Remember, they don't want relationships, they want control. He's getting fed, fat and happy off of sucking your energy and watching you wear yourself out.
So pore carefully over the requirements of your agreement. Look for ways to do what's in there and nothing else.
There are a few types of decisions you have to make, and I'll use the two main ones to illustrate.
A school needing parent chaperones is a perfect example of the first. This is a decision that is time sensitive, but not crucial.
Yes, they need chaperones. Pass that information on to him (better if you can just get him added to the email list.) Ignore it from there. If you can chaperone, great, go help out. If not, don't worry about whether or not he can. The worst that can happen is you both sign up to chaperone. If so, let your kid go with him and have fun with the kids you end up with. Operate in a parallel universe from his.
Don't sweat the small stuff. It's (almost) all small stuff.
Another kind of decision is that which is crucial and time sensitive. Say you have to choose a school for a child to go to, and he has to agree.
First, make sure that you communicate through a documentation app like OurFamilyWizard.
Second, give the information like you would a business proposal. If possible, narrow options down to two you can live with. Then outline your recommendation, and attach a time to answer before he chooses your recommendation by default. (Sometimes I recommend the opposite of what I actually want, but only if the two options are genuinely the same to me. That's a risky game and requires a careful hand.)
Like this: "[School] requires enrollment by [date]. This would benefit [child] because [reasons, bulleted list].
"In order to fill out the paperwork, I need to know if you support [child] going to [school] by [date]. If I don't hear from you by then, I will assume you agree to have them attend.
"Let me know if you have any questions."
Now you have timeboxed him with reasonable expectations. If he later wants to go to court over it, he's going to look like a fool trying to argue that you're not involving him.
You also showed no emotion, no real line for him to feed from.
He will try. They always try. Just continue responding the same way. Say he denies their attendance at that school. Simply say, "I understand this means that you are not willing to support [child] in [benefits the child will be losing.] I do not believe this is best for [child.]"
Then choose one of three things.
If you can support the child without help from him, say it's dance lessons on your custodial day, simply state you will be taking them yourself. "For this reason, I'll be taking [child] while they are with me. If you change your mind and would also like to support them in their activity, please let me know."
If it's something critical that you can't do without him, like a medical treatment or regular therapy, add nothing more to your response and take him to court. Don't tell him you're doing it. Just file the motion. Telling him stirs up drama by providing him with a line to feed from.
If you can't do it alone, but it's not anything critical, say it's a week-long summer camp, add "It means a lot to [child] to be able to go." Then drop it. Don't discuss it with him further unless it's because he's changed his mind.
Don't let the child go. DON'T tell your child "dad won't let you go." Just find something else fun that you can do during that time when you have them and don't mention it again. Even if it's just going out for a treat.
If your kid complains, just tell them "I'm sorry you can't go. I really wish you could." When they press for reasons, just say "I'm not sure why you can't go." Then change the subject. It's also okay to tell them "I can't discuss this with you." They will eventually catch on and start pressuring their dad for the things they want without putting you in the middle. They will pressure each of you separately, and it gets hard for the narc to maintain image while still saying no.
Meanwhile, work on getting tiebreakers that don't require court added into your contractual orders.
I responded to a comment, and thought it would be good to create a thread here to collect tips for mediation with a narcissist, especially since some of us are forced to it.
What have you learned in your experiences? Add it in a comment.
Stay calm. No matter what.
Instead of telling, ask questions. Play a bit dumb. "I don't understand. Why is it a problem for my daughter to get the help she needs before she has to experience these changes?"
Get ahead of their suspicions. "I know I might sound overprotective, but I really want to make sure she's okay."
Focus on what the children need, and avoid taking about what the ex is. Not "he is abusive," but "she needs to feel safe."
Talk what has happened, not about how you feel about it. Not "I'm afraid that he will..." but "she was acting out (better if you're more specific,) and she deserves to have us figure out why before we continue." Stick to facts, not fears.
If you think the mediator is thinking that you're unreasonable, make them face it, "Do you think it's unreasonable for me to ask for..." If they say yes, make them explain why. Be willing to flex if they have a good point, and explain why if they don't.
Go slowly. Don't be afraid to say, "I have to think about that. We can revisit that topic next time."
Make sure to take notes. If they challenge you on that, tell them you only want to keep things straight.
Time box discussions beforehand. Don't make the mistake I did and discuss for six hours. Give them two hours, or whatever your lawyer finds is reasonable.
Make sure to have a competant lawyer present, sign nothing and agree to nothing in the moment. Tell them you will review the documentation, sign, and return it within a reasonable time. This is doubly so if you're not allowed to have a lawyer present. Sign nothing in the moment. I can't stress that enough.
If you're being pressured, feel free to say "I'm feeling pressured right now. I only want to protect the interests of my child. I don't think this discussion is productive at this time. I am willing to move on to the next topic." Or, if it's near the end of your time, "This may be something to continue in the next discussion."
The cognitive dissonance still makes my head hurt.
So, their dad attacked my oldest. Predictably, he promised therapy for himself and to learn better parenting. Now he's refusing to pay for both his kids' therapy and any extracurriculars.
But he's tried to be a good father, and if only he knew everything my kids said in therapy, he could have changed his parenting before his oldest daughter decided she was done with him.
Oh, yes. A stellar father, who has to be told through therapy that forcefully grabbing a child's possessions out of her hands and calling her a little b* isn't good parenting. I'm sure it's the fact she doesn't feel safe disclosing things to you that makes you unable to parent properly.
The giant, sharp-toothed lion in the room. You are at risk if you speak of abuse in court. Cover your bases and get a lawyer.
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-issues/a-gendered-trap-when-mothers-allege-child-abuse-by-fathers-the-mothers-often-lose-custody-study-shows/2019/07/28/8f811220-af1d-11e9-bc5c-e73b603e7f38_story.html](A Gendered Trap: When Mothers Allege Child Abuse By Fathers, The Mothers Often Lose Custody)
I used to schedule the kids' activities only on my time....
...but after he took me to mediation and got more time, I stopped doing that. This summer is the first summer I picked the weeks, and while it wasn't deliberate, my oldest daughter has 8 days of camps scheduled during his time.
He's throwing one of his temper tantrums about it. Crying that he doesn't get enough meaningful time with them. He's never asked to switch any time. I would have. I'd actually prefer to take her to camp myself. I only scheduled it the way I did in order to follow all the rules he and the mediator came up with.
I would have loved to spend the alone time with my other daughter. The one who is his scapegoat most of the time.
Ironically, he just gave up the extra school nights he won in mediation because I didn't give him extra time at the beginning of summer after he decided he deserved it.
The kids say he doesn't spend time with them anyways when they are there. Their stepmom does most of the parenting.
At least now I can just roll my eyes at his hypocrisy and move on. I wish he could drop this imaginary feud of his and just enjoy both of the kids. They are getting older, and we are running out of time with them.
So, a couple of years ago we made a change to summer schedules partially because the kids were unhappy being at his house 4 weeks in a row. Now he gets an extra week, but it's broken up into 2 week max blocks of time.
He takes the fact that the kids don't like being at his house that long, rewords it to say they don't like not seeing either parent that long, then tries to use that tactic to get more time during the summer.
Basically he:
Agrees to something.
Decides he wants more.
Finds something that is true and extrapolates it to apply to the situation.
Uses it to try to make it seem that things are the same which are not the same.
Tries to make you look unreasonable if you show that it's not the same.
Uses that to try to force you to give him what he wants.
It's maybe self-delusion, maybe rewriting history. It's a common enough tactic, it feels like it should be labeled. Any thoughts? Any experiences with it?
I adore my children. But kids really don't understand the difference between private and secret, no matter how much you try to teach them.
Narcs know this. Because they can't simply move on with their lives, they will pump your kids for information about you. And your kids, learning this behavior, will overshare about their other parent.
The only way to handle this is clear and immovable boundaries.
Besides teaching them the difference between personal business (dating life) and secrets (that dad pushed you up against the wall and told you not to tell,) you have to learn how to keep your personal life quiet from the people you live with.
Take personal calls when they are at school, or in parent time with their other parent. Closed doors do not mean closed ears.
Pamper yourself when they are away. Whatever fills your bucket, don't feel guilty about doing it in spades when they are gone. Overdo it. Throw yourself into things that bring you peace and joy. If they don't have parent time, arrange for them to stay with friends or family a few nights per month. This isn't selfish, it's necessary for you to be a good parent.
Keep plans vague with your kids. Don't tell them exactly when you're going to do something fun until it's the night before, and they won't see their other parent until afterwards. You don't need to feed the competition the narc imagines up.
Do not let them share private information about the narc with you. I ask my kids, "is this something you need to vent about, or are you just sharing your dad's private information? Because I don't care about his business, and I don't want to know. I only care about your business."
Whatever you do, if they insist on sharing, tune it out and give gray rock kind of responses. "Hm." "That sounds frustrating." "I'm sorry you had to listen to that." Change the subject as soon as possible.
Only give engaged feedback for discussions that don't involve their other parent's personal life. Basically, reward them emotionally for sharing their thoughts and lives, but not their parent's.
You can't go no contact, but you can do an information diet, both going and coming. Trust me, it will make your relationship with your kids infinitely better.
The stupid games they play don't have to hurt you or the kids....
My oldest had a dance recital that started during her time with her dad. He brought her. I was already sitting down, and he came over and sat right in front of me, then pretended he didn't realize we were there. (I was wearing a very brightly colored coat.)
There was a time that it would have scared me. But this time, I felt little more than an eyeroll and a small amount of pity for a grown man who plays games like that. It's pathetic.
He also left as soon as her dance was done. Didn't ask me to take her home, just assumed. They are like a huldra from mythology. They look like parents from the front, but inside there is no substance. I asked her if she was coming home with me (he still had some time left with her, had he stayed) and she said yes. Told her he had to get to work, which is silly, since he would have had her, normally. He just didn't want to spend the time.
And I'm letting him get away with it. He doesn't know that his kids see right through him. But someday, he will. And now, it's not my fight any more. It's between him and the kids.
I just wanted to share this here to show those of you who are in the beginning stages that it eventually gets better. Their true colors show. Their innate laziness and self-absorption comes out. The kids' hearts get broken, and then they heal, stronger and wiser than we were at that age.
Be patient and kind to yourself (I'm a hypocrite to say that, but maybe I'll be able to take my own advice some day.)
When your children become tools of your abuser....
It was Halloween night, his turn with the kids for this holiday until 9pm. It's been 9pm (or earlier, when they were younger) since the court order, 10 years ago. He has had 5 years where it was 9pm. It was on the shared calendar at 9pm. He knew.
After he picked them up, I get a text from him, "Just to confirm, I drop them off at 10pm, right?" [Gaslighting]
My response: "9pm."
A text from my oldest. "You said 10pm, mom!" [Gaslighting]
When that didn't work, she resorted to guilt tripping, "but Halloween is my favorite holiday, and I wanted to spend it with my friends!" (9pm doesn't stop either of those things, by the way.) [Guilt trip]
Then I called her on it: "This is manipulative and unacceptable."
So she said, "You hurt my feelings!" [DARVO]
I ended the conversation, and this morning went over what happened and why it wasn't okay. I told her that I understood that she was disappointed, but that the way she tried to get her way 1) wasn't going to work on me, and 2) was manipulation, and not okay. I said she needed to be aware of what she had done so she could decide if that was the sort of person she wanted to be.
And then I told her how much I loved her, and even if she decided to be that person, I'd still love her, no matter how disappointed I was in her choice.
Turned out the haunted house thing he did to show off for the neighbors he had decided was over at 10pm. Funny thing is that if they had approached me in a less manipulative way, I might have agreed to let them stay up later.
I have no idea if I did the right thing. But it felt good to stand up for myself.
This from another abuse victim. It just goes to show that even people in our community don't always understand what it means to have children with your abuser.
Take deep breaths. Mostly, remember that you are interviewing the company as much as they are interviewing you. Having a crappy job is just as demoralizing as having no job.
How do you deal with pre-interview anxiety?
I've got one coming up soon and am nervous as hell, as usual.
Kentucky Lawmaker Pushes to Regulate Anti-Abortion Pregnancy Centers After Reveal Investigation (revealnews.org)
Reddit CEO slams protesters, calls them “landed gentry” (www.nbcnews.com)