That’s not what I am denying, read my comment again. What I am saying is that the warnings are just for show, because if they follow the warnings and flee, the IDF kills them while they are on the run
You’re conflating a few isolated stories from the initial days of the war during the evacuation of northern Gaza when they said “go south toward general safety,” not “go south and your safety is guaranteed.”
At that time, 99.94% of the civilian population evacuated without harm.
At any rate “don’t stand above tunnels and stay the fuck away from any members of Hamas or die” would have been very clear to me.
If they want more rights that begins with following International law on any occasions. Rejecting terrorism. Putting your soldiers in uniform. Freeing hostages. Not targeting innocent people every single day with indiscriminate rocket attacks. Do you know anything about the people you’re talking about or are you just ignoring it all because you’re sad about the consequences of their own actions? Nobody made Hamas build tunnels under every single school and hospital, nobody made Hamas turn their airport and water ports into instrumentalities of international terrorism. That’s what the people chose. Hamas is (was?) wildly popular.
If they want more rights that begins with following International law on any occasions. Rejecting terrorism. Putting your soldiers in uniform. Freeing hostages. Not targeting innocent people every single day with indiscriminate rocket attacks.
Apart from the fact that they do have uniforms for soldiers (except for during that little hospital “operation” some months back), you see that Israel is guilty of all of this too, right?
Eg being held in “administrative detention” without charge is being held hostage, harming or threatening innocent civilians so they put pressure on their government is terrorism. Killing AI-identified “targets” while they’re at home with their families because it’s easier is targeting innocent people every day. And withholding the necessities of life from civilians on purpose is against international law. Nice uniforms though yeah.
Should we take away Israelis’ rights by your logic? Or should we not punish innocents for the actions of people who claim to speak for them?
Basic rights are not conditional. Not sure how I can explain that to you if you don’t understand that already. Jesus christ.
Prisoners taken in a warzone under suspicion. Administrative detention. Call it however. No diplomatic status. Citizens of no legitimate state. Hamas is a terrorist organization. They don’t get to have a state. They are actual war criminals for all intents and purposes, and in all pursuits. War crimes are never punished in Gaza, often rewarded, always revered. Hamas is indefensible and unredeemable for what they’ve done to millions of people of have lived and died in Gaza without any prospects, having turned every institution into modalities of Iranian-vassal terrorism. Give me a break.
Again, nothing to do with war, NOT prisoners of war. Hostages by another name. How did you not know about this?
They are actual war criminals for all intents and purposes, and in all pursuits. War crimes are never punished in Gaza Israel, often rewarded, always revered.
Also true this way around. Israel has been committing war crimes for 7 months straight now.
Go read the ICJ preliminary order and the express finding that Israel does prosecute war criminals. And guess what? It’s true. The Qatari state/ pro-Trump/pro-Russia media diet you are gorging yourself on does not cover it at all.
Hamas are war criminals…in all pursuits.
No, that’s not also true about Israel. You are looking at a small isolated thing, which I think you are portraying unfairly and incompletely, but fine we can disagree.
But Israel has a legitimate government that has stabily for decades provided essential services to tens of millions of people.
Glad you agree Hamas must go.
What’s your plan to make that happen? How would you destroy the tunnels?
You’d do the best you could. That means ordinance and coordinated evacuations and warnings, knowing that the civilian population is going to follow Hamas around up above like one of those artic foxes stalking a tundra shrew below the snow, so they can win Martyrdom™ prizes, paid in rial, no doubt. Such disregard for their own side’s civilians is unprecedented in warfare. International law is based on precedent.
Sorry did you just totally ignore the administrative detention thing? We can talk about this stuff afterwards. Do you see how these people are hostages?
No not at all. Hostages? Of who? No one wants to trade anyone for anything, except Hamas.
I see how there exists in Gaza a pervasive, deranged culture of support for terrorism and willing “martyrdom,” a wilfull disregard for life or law, material support of which justifies administrative detention. Easily. Do you not?
I shared this link with you a couple of messages back. Do you agree that being imprisoned indefinitely, not during an explicit time of war (ie it has happened for many many years now, these are not prisoners of war) and with NO CHARGE is equivalent to being a hostage?
Nobody is trading them for anything stop calling them hostages. Call them detainees. As usual the claim you’ve made against Israel is wildly exaggerated.
They couldn’t play nice in the neighborhood without helping trying to blow anything up so they don’t get to play outside with their friends.
My highschool had more students than Israel has administrative detainees. For some years, my middle school even had more. Seems about right. Hamas is (was) 20,000~ strong, obviously they enjoy massive public support and aid.
There’s more important considerations than 3,600 detainees. Most of them are very temporary, based on levels of suspicion and probable cause, on emerging intelligence and progressing investigation. Do you really think most of them aren’t accomplices or coconspirators? Some of them are going to be hopeless cases who will probably never see the sun again. Oh no, how will I sleep at night?! Easily and restfully. What keeps me up is the thought that so many of my compatriots in the West have been force fed these wild exaggerations, day in, day out, since day one, and that because the news got too sad for too many, the world will sit back and let Iran park a proxy state owned by terrorists right on Israel’s border. Not going to happen though, so, zzzzz.
Nobody is trading them for anything stop calling them hostages. Call them detainees. As usual the claim you’ve made against Israel is wildly exaggerated.
We can break down the terminology issue.
We have people who are not charged with any crime (ie innocent), who are taken against their will and held in captivity until their captor either decides to let them go or somebody breaks them out.
We could call it anything we want. “Innocent people held by someone/an organisation against their will.” Both the Israelis taken on October 7th and the Palestinians held without charge are “Innocent people held by someone/an organisation against their will.” The same thing has happened to them.
So do we call them all hostages or all detainees?
They couldn’t play nice in the neighborhood without helping trying to blow anything up so they don’t get to play outside with their friends.
You’re a lawyer, right? Is this a fair description of someone who is not charged with a crime?
That’s an insightful, direct question. Truly appreciate it.
We’re speaking of people held without charge under administrative detention. It falls short of rote internment only by the fact that it’s intended to and generally is reasonably temporary. Read your own article. It’s like a revolving door.
There is no fairly analogous type of criminal detention. The closest is custodial arrest, but that’s way more temporary in scope; charges are either filed or not in western criminal procedure usually within hours, commonly known as “48-hour hold,” with a process for a longer hold if there’s a component of irreparable harm, that’s commonly known as a “72-hour” hole. After charge, the accused have a right, at least where I am, to a probable cause and bail hearing, and maybe to post bond, and then the accused is released pending trial.
These folks aren’t accused, they are suspects albeit still being investigated, but there’s enough suspicion to justify holding them longer than what would be typical in the usual criminal setting, i.e., a 72 hour hold, given the potential for irreparable harm if the suspect gets released without charges and goes back to the suspected criminal enterprise, which in this case is international terrorism, hostage taking, rocket attacks, and mass shooting. Most of them though aren’t being wrongfully detained. It really sucks. As someone who very early did a 180 on a career of prosecuting cases, and have since only ever defended the accused, I hate what this administrative detention means to well-founded, hard-won notions of fairness and justice. But it doesn’t break humanity. I know there’s no justice for those wrongly caught up in it. That doesn’t make it unjustified.
My state pays wrongful incarcerees restitution by a statutory formula; locking up innocent people is inevitable, so we account for it. If Gaza had diplomatic status and would get out from under the utter tyranny of Hamas, nice things like that could exist, instead of just surviving on charity. I believe the good will of the western world will endeavor to indemnify the inevitable victims of such inherent unfairness. Not going to negotiate with terrorists on it, that’s for sure. When a state collapses after all its institutions are coopted by violent extremists and criminals, this is roughly what reconstruction looks like, right? It’s scène à faire. We both agree it’s offensive to behold.
Paragraph three is what I’m citing for the proposition that Israel is redeemable. Their government has a Supreme Court and in it exists a right of habeas corpus. The detainees you are talking about are, in a significant way, having their day in court right now. Even the detainees at Gitmo, except maybe one or two stateless souls no-one will take, got their day via habeas corpus.
We’re speaking of people held without charge under administrative detention. It falls short of rote internment only by the fact that it’s intended to and generally is reasonably temporary. Read your own article. It’s like a revolving door.
Yeah I did read it. It’s often for longer than 6 months and even longer than a year, I even saved this graph to show you…
Since 2017 there has generally been 200+ in for longer than 6 months, sometimes much more. Each order lasts up to 6 months so it’s not so short, in fact Hamas’ hostages released in the cease fire a while back had been there much less time. I don’t think that makes it OK in either case. Like the hostages still there now are like the Palestinians who’ve had their detention extended once.
These folks aren’t accused, they are suspects albeit still being investigated, but there’s enough suspicion to justify holding them longer than what would be typical in the usual criminal setting
Except this evidence isn’t shared so how do we know this? Imo if there’s no charge and you hold someone for a long time (over 48 hour seems reasonable) then these people are simply hostages. Like if Hamas said that the current hostages are suspected of aiding the IDF in “criminal” activity and provided no details would that be acceptable to you? It would not be to me.
I hate what this administrative detention means to well-founded, hard-won notions of fairness and justice
Absolutely, as everyone should.
I know there’s no justice for those wrongly caught up in it. That doesn’t make it unjustified.
I mean by definition it kind of does make it unjustified. Nobody, Israel and Hamas both included, has the right to keep people captive without charge. An opaque military justice system and evidence-free accusations don’t make what Israel is doing in any way justified.
Paragraph three is what I’m citing for the proposition that Israel is redeemable. Their government has a Supreme Court and in it exists a right of habeas corpus.
Absolutely it is redeemable if it releases the “Innocent people held against their will” immediately and gives restitution as you said. Until that day this is functionally identical to what Hamas did, imo.
Interesting article, thanks for sharing! Whst happens to these people disgusts me, truly.
Like you totally ignored all points of fact raised by me and didn’t even know that Israel detains Palestinians without charge all the time outside of active war?
I’ll tell you why I didn’t fight you on these points: the topic of conversation is Palestinian statehood. NOT Hamas. What you are doing is classic hasbara bullshit, if in doubt and people start talking about human rights for Palestinians, shift the conversation to Hamas. You think or at least imply that the actions of a few can detract from the need for basic rights for every single human being. As I said, if that was the case then Israelis lose them too.
And guess what? Hamas are terrorists and I agree they are shit. Now if you could face up to the various despicable crimes of Israel we might actually get somewhere here.
Listen I can totally face up to the war crimes. There have been many. The side that actually punishes war crimes is redeemable. The side that rewards war crimes is not.
I understand that in Israel there is a political movement that fosters a culture of wiping things under the rug or maybe pardoning war criminals like Trump did and would do again in America. But every dead kid in Gaza rests squarely at the feet of Hamas. Seems like it’s about 3% of the population that is so hardcore for Hamas that they are ready to die for the cause with their loved ones in tow.
Listen I can totally face up to the war crimes. There have been many.
Thank you. This is very bad and I’m sure you can see that not all have been punished, in fact I think the WCK attack is one of the only ones recently that have?
But Israel is still allowed at the UN. They should be in the UN despite all of the (IMO) horrendous things that the country is doing and has done. Since Hamas would not be the representatives of Palestine at the UN (so complaining about them is not relevant), why should Palestine not have full UN membership? Why do they not deserve a proper seat at the table?
It would be like saying Israel doesn’t deserve membership because settlers are terrorists and the IDF and the current government supports them. I don’t understand how you can apply the logic to Hamas and Palestine but not there?
If you answer nothing else, please answer this: do you think that the state of Palestine has the right to exist?
Sure, in the West Bank. Gaza is forfeit. It’s a collapsed state, lawless, unincorporated territory, irredenta, free to whoever can establish order.
Even from just a physical standpoint, the very foundation of Gaza’s cities and towns were turned to Swiss cheese by Hamas. Nothing is stable. Gaza has zero capability or capacity to rebuild itself and literally nobody else cares enough about Gaza to do it other than Israel. Qatar only sends money if Hamas is fielding soldiers to kill Jews, the West only sends money if Hamas tricks enough human shields into being “martyred.”
Gaza is not forfeit, it can be rebuilt. But anyway, if you agree to a state in the West Bank, then you should have no problem with Palestine having full UN membership, right?
the West only sends money if Hamas tricks enough human shields into being “martyred.”
This comes across dehumanizing and frankly, disgusting. They are not “shields” by living in their fucking houses. They didn’t build the tunnels did they? Why should they die because of them?
Membership in the United Nations is open to all other peace-loving states which accept the obligations contained in the present Charter and, in the judgment of the Organization, are able and willing to carry out these obligations.
Literally would be possible if not for the US’s veto.
They shouldn’t die because of tunnels. They should evacuate and get somewhere there isn’t tunnels.
Aren’t there tunnels basically all over? And how the hell would they know where there aren’t tunnels? Leave your home and go to the middle of nowhere amidst constant bombing and chaos with thousands of others so Israel can bomb it’s way down to subterranean tunnels?
“Your apartment block has been marked for destruction, please climb over the bodies of your neighbours and calmly make your way to the designated safe zone… by which we mean the zone that is probably safe for now”
Some dystopian shit right there. Everyone went to Rafah and now look
The UN could not have existed at all without its charter members coming together for the future of the world.
Membership in the United Nations is open to all other peace-loving states which accept the obligations contained in the present Charter and, in the judgment of the Organization, are able and willing to carry out these obligations.
Seems clear to me they aren’t ready. Excise Hamas from the West Bank, excise Iranian corruption, stop the rocket attacks, destroy the tunnels, and then talk about the West Bank and the PA’s willingness to carry out it’s obligations. Can’t have their cake and eat it too.
Oligarchs Who Support Fascism (so far only) Abroad or Fascists.
Though choice.
Glad I live in a saner part of the planet and don’t have to do it (for all the crap around here, having only a choice between two kinds of Far Right isn’t part of it).
If through some insane series of circumstances George W. Bush was running against Trump, as the democratic nominee, would you have this same attitude to criticism of him?
Yeah I would rather have bush than trump any day. Trump was insane. We couldn’t leave our houses anymore by the end of his term because of his horrible response to the pandemic. Never again. And that all Happened before the insurrection! Where have you been?
Veto power exists in the Security Council, not in the General Assembly. Unfortunately in this case, admission requires the Security Council to recommend a member be approved before the General Assembly can hold a vote.
“[T]he United States has made clear that it will block Palestinian membership and statehood until direct negotiations with Israel resolve key issues, including security, boundaries and the future of Jerusalem.”
Why does Israel get membership in the UN, if these are preconditions for membership? Israel will never agree to Palestinian membership. A stable Palestinian state will likely never exist until Israel is defeated militarily and has no choice but to accept it.
When statements don’t make sense, i find it helpful to cut out any part that offends logic and see if it becomes clearer. In this case i apply it like this:
“[T]he United States has made clear that it will block Palestinian membership and statehood.
There! The other parts were extraenous fluff to soften their perceived position.
(I know you already grok their position, I’m just sayin its a hack i like.)
Israel is a tiny country that doesn’t know how to make friends besides screaming “my dad’s a cop and he’ll beat you up”. If the US ended its support for the colony and no other power stepped in to fill the role of sponsor, Israel would be off the map within a generation. They do have a domestic arms industry but just due to its tiny size it could never compete with larger countries.
Palestinian recognition in the UN is entirely a protest against the US, it always has been. Pissed off at the US? Officially recognize Palestine, that’ll show them!
But the reality is that Palestine isn’t a viable state. Generally when countries “recognize” Palestine they recognize the unelected Fatah government of the West Bank, which is currently under occupation by Israel. Nobody is recognizing the terrorist Hamas regime in Gaza because, well, they’re genocidal terrorists.
So some country recognizes the unelected government of an occupied territory while ignoring the elected (albeit nearly two decades ago) terrorist government of the unoccupied (though not as unoccupied as it was six months ago)? Purely performative bullshit which should be vetoed.
Maybe if Palestinians can elect a party that doesn’t have a genocidal intent there could be broad support for an officially recognized state. But no one that hasn’t been warped by TikTok propaganda is going to recognize a country that has it’s occupied territory run by a corrupt government while it’s “free” territory is run by genocidal terrorists.
Come on children, look at this like an adult who understands basic foreign policy.
Yup, Hamas “permanently suspended” elections. Typical fascist bullshit, get into power with a plurality of the vote and then never hold an election again. So should the world recognize them as the government of Palestine? Or should the world recognize the corrupt Fatah regime as the government of Palestine despite not winning the last election over a decade and a half ago? Even if that happened would Fatah really have control over Gaza if Hamas continues to exist? What legitimacy does either Hamas or Fatah have?
The main problem with recognizing Palestine as a country is that there is no legitimate government for that country. Blame Israel as much as you want, but Palestine doesn’t have a real government. The only real hope for Palestinian statehood is if Israel eliminates Hamas from the equation, but who is really willing to see that to completion knowing the casualties that will occur to achieve that outcome?
So given the current situation, the Palestinian “state” would be bipolar and completely unstable. An inevitable failed state. Which people far away from it are probably fine with to score politcal points domestically, but it’s more significant for people that have to live next door to a failed state.
There’s no real hope for Palestine as long as Hamas exists. A state consumed by hatred dominated by a movement that preys on those emotions has a bleak future. If Hamas survives this, everything you’re seeing today will happen again in a few decades. Just how it goes.
Countries are established with appointed provisional governments all the time. There generally aren’t elections before a country is established nor has the west ever shied away from simply picking new governments themselves. Oftentimes even with no expectation of democratic rule.
But this is all bullshit concern trolling. You 100% do not care about whether a new Palestinian state has a democratically elected government, you simply want to make excuses for why nothing should change and we should just let Israel continue to oppress and murder Palestinians.
You had the first part but didn’t extend the same pleasantries to Israel in the second
We knew it wasn’t going to happen from the beginning though, that’s why people who are actually pro-Palestinian have been pushing for equality with Israelis
The reason I didn’t extend the same pleasantries is because Palestine has a right to exist as a state. Palestinians are a people that have consistently occupied that land for a very long time. It’s a diverse group of people that represent the diverse and rich history of the region. Israel is a genocidal European colony named for a biblical people that haven’t been a demographic majority in thousands of years, yet feel they have an exclusive right to that land.
Until 1995, when Israeli PM Rabin was assassinated by a right winger, they were moving towards a two state solution, to the point of the IDF forcibly removing their own Jewish settlements from the lands of the prospective Palestinian state.
After the assassination, Netanyahu became the next PM, and has served in the position for most of the time since, asides most of a decade in the 2000s where other Likud politicians held it. He reversed the policy of settler removal.
Try not to conflate the entire country with the crazy right winger leadership they have currently. The same leadership of strongmen that catastrophically failed to keep them safe back in October, which is the one single thing such a man says he is supposed to be good at.
All that said, I also support Palestinian entry as a UN member state, and am tired of the US unfairly favoring its treaty ally in this case.
I would still blame the entire country as long as thing like “aliyah” exist. The fact that any jewish person or a convert can immigrate to a stolen land is crazy to me.
There decades since Yitzhak Rabin’s assassination and Israel has lurched only further to the right. One of the greatest obstacles to peace has been Israel’s continual land grabs and illegal settlement building. That has pretty much been cemented as nationalist policy. Ben Gvir is a psychopath and his rise is telling of how far Israel has embraced religious fanaticism.
No one, however, offends liberal and centrist Israelis quite like Itamar Ben-Gvir. Ben-Gvir, who entered parliament in 2021, leads a far-right party called Otzma Yehudit, or Jewish Power. His role model and ideological wellspring has long been Meir Kahane, a Brooklyn rabbi who moved to Israel in 1971 and, during a single term in the Knesset, tested the moral limits of the country. Israeli politicians strive to reconcile Israel’s identities as a Jewish state and a democracy. Kahane argued that “the idea of a democratic Jewish state is nonsense.” In his view, demographic trends would inevitably turn Israel’s non-Jews into a majority, and so the ideal solution was “the immediate transfer of the Arabs.” To Kahane, Arabs were “dogs” who “must sit quietly or get the hell out.” His rhetoric was so virulent that lawmakers from both sides of the aisle used to walk out of the Knesset when he spoke. His party, Kach (Thus), was finally barred from parliament in 1988. Jewish Power is an ideological offshoot of Kach; Ben-Gvir served as a Kach youth leader and has called Kahane a “saint.”
Ben-Gvir, who is forty-six, has been convicted on at least eight charges, including supporting a terrorist organization and incitement to racism, compiling a criminal record so long that, when he appeared before a judge, “we had to change the ink on the printer,” Dvir Kariv, a former official in the Shin Bet intelligence agency, told me. As recently as last October, Netanyahu refused to share a stage with him, or even to be seen with him in photographs. But a series of disappointing elections persuaded Netanyahu to change his mind.
It seems contradictory to me to say it has always been pursing genocide, when one of the elected politicians was moving in the other direction for years. A bit selective.
Perhaps we could look at the voter tallys in 1996, where Netanyahu won 1,501,023 to 1,471,566, and the events that were influencing the Israeli public at the time? It certainly doesn’t help when there’s 14 suicide bombings happening in Israel between 1993 and 1995 during the peace process. Being bombed generally does drive people towards militarism.
Regardless of the past, though, Israel is there now. With its nuclear arsenal, it will not be destroyed any time soon unless Iran somehow nukes it off the map through its missile defense. So, negotiation seems necessary.
when one of the elected politicians was moving in the other direction for years. A bit selective.
Yeah and what did it result in? Same thing as every other “negotiation” from the last 75 years, More Genocidal Nazis slowly taking over Palestinian land while the Palestinians have to wait for the “peaceful negotiations”.
The only difference between past israel and current israel is that current israel got so arrogant that they are forgetting to hide their Nazism. They are now flaunting what they have been doing for the past 75 years thinking themselves so much in the right that nobody will disagree with them.
Pretending that israel has ever had good-will to come to a peaceful conclusion is pure delusion. Israel is an Ethnostate deeply rooted in Apartheid. You cannot create an Ethnostate pecaefully just like the Nazis weren’t peacefully expanding their Lebensraum.
somehow, at some point in the conversation, the word “nuance” here has become double speak for Neo-liberal-style negotiations. but yeah, big picture, it’s Nazi-O-Clock!
I’m not sure about this ethnostate claim, when over 20% of Israel’s citizens are of Arabic descent, and are not required to have Jewish heritage or faith. They can vote, own business and have the same legal protections as non-Arab citizens. These are not in Gaza or the West Bank, but living in Israel’s internationally recognized borders.
No, there are certainly innocents in Gaza. However, there are also innocents in Israel. You may have chosen your side, but I am not fighting in this war. Frankly, it’s consistently been too difficult to determine the truth.
edit: Actually, that’s not true. I find I do get involved in the information side of the conflict, except I have to consistently fight against both of the sides. It’s very troubling.
Last time I checked you were claiming israel is not an Apartheid state so you might want to work on that information thing a bit more before providing insightful comments
If you can find me an unbiased assessment of it, from people that acknowledge Israel’s claims to exist by its 1967 borders and for people of Jewish descent to move to within those 1967 borders if they want, I happily will.
It means I’ll read any information about Israeli Apartheid policies from any Zionist-neutral source. I will, however, be very wary of anti-Zionist sources or pro-Zionist sources, unless the source is being critical of its own position.
I’m not foolish enough to think there’s a side in the war that won’t lie.
I understand it is a high standard, but it’s the same goalpost I had to begin with. I’m neither pro-Israeli, nor pro-Palestinian, I’m just loyal to good factuality as best as I can find it, and I’m loyal to peaceful co-existence and a two-state solution, preferably by the 1967 borders.
Every Jew has the unrestricted right to immigrate to Israel and become an Israeli citizen. Individuals born within the country receive citizenship at birth if at least one parent is a citizen. Non-Jewish foreigners may naturalize after living there for at least three years while holding permanent residency and demonstrating proficiency in the Hebrew language. Naturalizing non-Jews are additionally required to renounce their previous nationalities, while Jewish immigrants are not subject to this requirement.
Not on its own, no. The UN is composed of members, and its personnel can come from anywhere and be of any opinion.
There is no such thing as a single perfectly reliable source. The UN is better than most, but its still composed of people.
This, however, is:
and former Israeli Attorney General Michael Ben-Yair – have also all called this apartheid
A former Israeli AG can be presumed to be both knowledgeable, and have a pro-Israeli bias, so if they are being critical of Israel then that is very credible. Several other cited sources are credible as well. Thank you for sharing that.
I really don’t think you are in any place to be telling anyone to check their info, when the modlogs show that you’ve had 6 posts removed for misinformation in the past 11 days, along with being banned for antisemitism. You share op-ed nonsense and pass it off as legitimate news, and have your shit removed for that too.
You really have no place to call anyone out for their claims.
a) Israel is the historical homeland of the Jewish people in which the state of Israel was established.
b) The state of Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people, in which it actualizes its natural, religious, and historical right for self-determination.
c) The actualization of the right of national self-determination in the state of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.
…
The state views Jewish settlement as a national value and will labor to encourage and promote its establishment and development.
Furthermore, two million Palestinians live within pre-1967 Israel borders with the ability to vote. Three million Palestinians live under military occupation in the West Bank. Two million Palestinians survive in what was an open air prison and now is one big death camp. All Jews, including those in the West Bank, enjoy full rights.
Arab families are greatly over-represented among Israel’s poor: over half of Arab families in Israel are classified as poor, compared to an average poverty rate of one-fifth among all families in Israel. Arab towns and villages are heavily over-represented in the lowest socio-economic rankings, and the unrecognized Arab Bedouin villages in the Naqab are the poorest communities in the state
Direct state policy measures to reduce poverty disproportionately target Jewish citizens, with the result that poverty rates have fallen far more sharply among Jewish citizens than among their Arab counterparts, and inequalities have consequently persisted.
Admissions committees operate in around 700 agricultural and community towns and filter out Arab applicants, on the basis of their “social unsuitability”, from future residency in these towns. The operation of admissions committees contributes to the institutionalization of racially- segregated towns and villages throughout the state and perpetuates unequal access to the land.
The Jewish National Fund (JNF)—a body with quasi-state authority that operates solely for the interests of the Jewish people and controls 13% of the land in the state—continues to wield decisive influence over land policy in Israel, having been allocated six of a total of 13 members of the newly-established Land Authority Council.
Arab towns and villages in Israel suffer from severe overcrowding, with Arab municipalities exercising jurisdiction over only 2.5% of the total area of the state. Since 1948, the State of Israel has established approximately 600 Jewish municipalities, whereas no new Arab village, town or city has ever been built.
Israel is currently intensifying its efforts to forcibly evacuate the unrecognized villages in the Naqab (referred to as “illegal clusters”), including by demolishing entire villages, as recently witnessed in the repeated demolition of the village of Al-Araqib. In pursuing this policy, the state has rejected the option of affording recognition to these villages, many of which predate the establishment of Israel. Between 75,000 and 90,000 Arab Bedouin live in the unrecognized villages in the Naqab, whom the state characterizes as “trespassers on state land”.
State funding to Arab schools in Israel falls far behind that provided to Jewish schools. According to official state data published in 2004, the state provides three times as much funding to Jewish students as to Arab pupils. This underfunding is reflected in many areas, including relatively large class sizes and poor infrastructure and facilities.
A series of Israeli laws institute a range of restrictions on freedom of movement, freedom of speech, and access to the political system, including ideological limitations on the platforms of political parties and severe restrictions on travel by MKs to Arab states classified as “enemy states”. Such laws are used predominantly to curb the political freedoms of Palestinian citizens and their elected representatives and are steadily shrinking the space for political action available to them
Even the roots of Israel are established in violent acts of what can only be described as terrorism. Of course one person’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter. Israel is one of the main originators of the car bomb. But you can read more about the Irgung gangs and terrorism committed by Israel’s founders if you choose.
Buda’s wagon was, in essence, the prototype car bomb: the first use of an inconspicuous vehicle, anonymous in almost any urban setting, to transport large quantities of high explosive into precise range of a high-value target. It was not replicated, as far as I have been able to determine, until January 12, 1947 when the Stern Gang drove a truckload of explosives into a British police station in Haifa, Palestine, killing 4 and injuring 140. The Stern Gang (a pro-fascist splinter group led by Avraham Stern that broke away from the right-wing Zionist paramilitary Irgun) would soon use truck and car bombs to kill Palestinians as well: a creative atrocity immediately reciprocated by British deserters fighting on the side of Palestinian nationalists.
Unlike in pretty much all other countries in the World, Israel separates Nationality from Citizenship and there are more rights on the latter than on the former.
Further, uniquelly in the World Israel has different kinds of Citizenship such as Israeli Jew Citizienship and Israeli Arab Citizenship and the former has more rights than the latter.
As with every other piece of hasbara propaganda, those massive bollocks you’re parroting are a meaningless façade for external consumption that hides the reality of a State were Apartheid is so deeply entrenched that by law non-Jews have a second class kind of citizenship with less rights than Jews who have a different class of citizenship.
They’re both said to be Israelis (as there is but one nationality) and if one ignores all the rest they’re both as you say “Israel’s citizens”, they’re just de jure different kinds of Iraeli citiziens with different rights and, as I said in the beginning, most rights there are linked to Citizenship, not Nationality, so for example Israeli Arab Citizens can be denied the right to live in certain places whilst Israeli Jew Citizens cannot.
And to preempt the usual hasbara response to this disclosure: those Arabs don’t live there because it’s such a great situation, they still live there even though they are second class citizens because they’ve always lived there as they were born there on what was their family’s land before it was stollen from them.
This idea of a difference between nationality and citizenship is admittedly new to me. Can you provide a citation to a reputable source that explains it in more detail?
Israelis are not alone in using propaganda, so a neutral source, preferably. Or the law itself, I can run it through a translator.
Actually I was a bit wrong (I had been told this by others but only research the details now to provide you with references) so here are the corrections:
First I had it the other way around - it’s the nationality that has Jewish and non-Jewish, not citizenship. Specifically Israeli nationality is only for Jews and it’s for any Jew independently of were they are born source
Second, it’s not all Arabs that are discriminated by law when it it comes to citizenship, it’s only some who, although born in the territory of Israel are seldom given Israeli Citizenship when they ask. This applies not only to the occupied territories in the West Bank and Gaza but, more shockingly, Jerusalem source. This is why once in a while you get news of Arabs being evicted from their houses in Jerusalem: they were never actually given Israeli citizenship even though they were born in Israel and if they apply they are unlikelly to get it as per Israeli law they have no right of birth to it.
And then of course there are plenty of sources refering to Israeli Arabs being treated as second class citizens, such as this Bloomberg article
PS: I also remembered how some of the details I listed above, such as how Israeli Arabs can be refused license to live in certain places, came from a Documentary I saw on TV years ago. If I remember it correctly it’s done via a scheme which is a bit like “housing associations” but for for larger areas (towns?) were people have to apply to them to be allowed to go live there and in many places Israeli Arabs are simply never accepted so they can’t go live in those places.
That Haaretz article is saddening. I cannot in good faith blame Israel for not giving citizenship to people who do not want it and don’t apply for it, but reading some of the excuses they gave for denying applications is telling.
The issue isn’t Netanyahu. Well he’s a compounding issue but the core problem is that everyone but the leftest of lefties stopped believing in the peace process after Rabin’s assassination. As the Haaretz said: Yigal Amir won. The right-wing approach to security, “antagonise Palestinians into submission”, never got challenged by anyone since Rabin’s death. Maybe it’ll now get challenged as October 7th happened on the right’s watch, so obviously they can’t provide security, but don’t expect the Israeli people to realise that in a fortnight, so far little is happening: The press is self-censoring because they know no Israeli wants to even look at what the IDF is doing in Gaza and the West Bank, protests are about Netanyahu’s corruption (which is pretty much the only thing distinguishing him and Gantz, not politics) as well as families of hostages complaining about the Kahanites being more interested in killing Arabs than getting their relatives back. It’s not (necessarily) the war they’re opposed to but the priorities.
To whatever extent Israeli civilians are more moderate, they’ve never truly been able to affect change. Israel’s history only started with a terrorist campaign of ethnic cleansing and genocide. Rabin’s efforts are truly exceptional in Israel’s history, and he was murdered for it. The return to genocide is simply a return to the norm.
Even if Israeli moderates were to win political power, it would only be temporary. Israeli terrorists saw no problem ethnically cleansing the land to invent their own state with only people they approved of, and if popular sentiment turns away, they no doubt would do it again to remove the new “undesirables”.
I do not see where the statement you quoted says Israel needs to agree for Palestine to become a UN member. It says that negotiations with Israel are necessary to resolve the key issues.
If I’m reading it right, the OP meant something like this:
The US block Palestinian membership on the condition of negotiations with Israel, but don’t impose the same restriction (negotiations eith Palestine) on Israel’s membership. Why does Israel get to be a member without negotiation, but Palestine doesn’t?
(Not taking a stance here, argue with the OP if you want to. I’m just contributing my understanding.)
Can’t wait to see the list of US/Israel bootlickers that abstained from/voted against this, trying to deny an entire people the right to their own land.
Having voted in a referendum against joining the Federated States of Micronesia in 1978,[11][12] the islands gained full sovereignty in 1994 under a Compact of Free Association with the United States.
Politically, Palau is a presidential republic in free association with the United States, which provides defense, funding, and access to social services.
You say that as if that’s all America is. America controls a vast amount of land. It’s the third largest country in the world and, unlike the first two largest (Russia and Canada), most of that land is also usable for either farming or resource extraction. But that’s not the only reason it’s an empire. It’s also an empire because it has a large military presence in multiple countries who rely on it to supply defense at least in part. But another reason it’s an empire is that it has vassal states. It doesn’t matter how small those states are. Especially not when they are in strategic Pacific locations.
I’m not denying the imperialism of the US, I’m just saying that a group of islands with a total population 1/10th the size of my city isn’t really the chief problem, and kinda comes off as anti-American for anti-American sake. There are myriad other problems, and a couple of islands that gave us some strategy in the Pacific are hardly the East India Trading Company.
It also has a method of governance were politicians harp on and on (and on, AND ON) about having wonderful human rights whilst having the largest fraction of the population emprisioned in the World, regular murders by police, commonly deploying violence against demonstrators, having a voting system that enforces a power duopoly, regularly disenfranchise minorities and were citizens do not have rights to health, food or a place to live, which is not a popular export.
When we reach for our democratic ideals we are at our best.
Meanwhile back in the middle east, authoritarian religious police stone you to death for saying things like you’re saying about their government. Grow up. You obviously have it very good.
By giving the Palestinians UN sanctioned country status while allowing Hamas to control Gaza, other terrorist groups are shown that murdering civilians is the way to achieve their goals.
Personally I would not like to see a return of the IRA, the ETA, Contras, the FARC, Isis etc.
Oh, yeah, the deluded nationalists amongst you guys really talk the talk like pros, shame about not walking the walk. “Reach for our democratic ideals” indeed … sounds lofty and all but strangelly enough it immediatly fails on the hurdle of actually having a genuine selection of political parties to vote for. Beautiful political poetry to make up for quite a different reality - it’s called “Compensation” in Psychology.
As for the second paragraph, that “Look at those other guys in the Middle East” whataboutism is quite a low standard to compare one’s nation against and thus an implicit acceptance of mediocrity, and even those “other guys in the Middle East” manage to have less people in prison than the US. Maybe it’s something in the water.
Next to the rest of the Developed World the US is only an example of Human Rights or of Humanism in any form in the sense of something to avoid not something to emulate. But yeah, you guys sure beat dictatorial shitholes … well maybe not on the size of the prison population and their use as forced labour and on police shootings…
And yeah, I do have it very good compared to that shit over there, and had it very good in all other countries in Europe I lived in - in Europe you have to go so far to East that you reach Russia to get a colder and more inhumane system than the one to the West of us across the Atlantic.
Try believing less of what you read on the internet. It’s pretty good in America for more people than in virtually any place in any time in world history. Thanks for the effort it took to type your post though.
And hope for the future is more justified here than anywhere in the middle east.
I’d say the most hope rests with Israel: they could excise their right wing populism problem in one election. Could happen this year. How much hope do you have for an Arab Spring in Iran? Even the places that had Arab Springs mostly remain unchanged.
And that’s precisely why Israel is worth the West’s defense against Iranian and Russian fuckery, much less open war (world war III). I hope Biden continues to lead western diplomacy toward incentivising a more just future for Israel. I have zero hope that there is a more just future in Iran without total regime change, or in the laundry list of other dumpy theocracies which pass as “government” in the mid east, Gaza, Houthiville, or whatever glorious caliphate they imagine, etc.
For the future rights of the hundreds of millions of people who will live and die in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria, for example, there is more hope after western military invention than before.
Of course, the #20 or so in PPP per-capita country in the World with the largest fraction of the population in prison is the Greatest Country In The World ^TM^ and a lesson that others want to follow as you know because other Americans and people from shithole countries told you so (not to mention all those Hollywood films).
(Oh, and a lot of what I wrote I was told to me by actual Americans who moved to Europe)
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