Joe Biden Has Another Big F*cking Deal For Climate, Again

You may have noticed that in recent weeks, the Biden administration has been rolling out a hell of a lot of new regulations. Earlier this month it was big student loan reforms and a massive improvement in how public lands are managed, then this week we had better pay and working conditions for working Americans, minimum staffing ratios for nursing homes, and even improved service on airlines.

That’s not only because it’s an election year, though Joe & Kamala certainly do like to point out that where the Other Guy rages (and wants to raise inflation!) they’ve been busy making Americans’ lives better. But the bigger reason is that the administration wants to get new rules finalized prior to May, to keep them from being tossed out in the next Congress via the Congressional Review Act, which Donald Trump and his cronies used to reverse a bunch of Barack Obama’s environmental regulations.

. . . The requirement that coal plants find a way to eliminate 90 percent of their emissions by 2032 effectively accelerates the end of coal for power generation, which was inevitable anyway. Roughly 70 percent of US coal plants have already closed, and last year, coal generated only 16 percent of electric power, a new record low. In addition to the emissions rule, three other final rules also impose strict new limits on mercury, coal ash, and pollution of wastewater, to put an end to the environmental degradation caused by coal.

. . . The other option, obviously, would be for utilities to meet coming demand with renewables, as administration officials pointed out when previewing the new rule. Thanks to the IRA’s hundreds of billions of dollars in incentives, carbon-free power generation, including battery storage, already beats the cost of building new gas plants. Going forward, the administration is confident renewables will be the far more cost-effective and reliable way to meet increasing demand by 2032, when the emissions limits fully kick in.

DrunkEngineer,

This new policy will definitely get overturned by the Supreme Court. As such, it is a stupid election-year gimmick.

ZombiFrancis,

While I am glad for actions, any actions, towards reducing fossil fuel emissions in the US, I really which they weren’t coupled with record high oil production and export.

The whole robbing Peter to pay Paul situation and all.

mlg,
@mlg@lemmy.world avatar

Biden’s entire stance on climate change went out the window when his administration started chasing China in a trade war over cheap eco technology like batteries and solar panels because we obviously can’t save the planet without making billions for american megacorps first.

China’s overproduction of clean energy goods needs to be mitigated, Yellen says

Also trying to do the same national rail program as Obama which went nowhere because surprise surprise the rail industry in the USA is also monopolized and unregulated. Can’t utilize that sweet anti trust law when it actually matters.

None of these changes qualify as reforms, they’re just half assed pork barrel projects for election year.

Cryophilia,

Literally nothing is ever good enough rofl

Joe Biden could personally cure cancer and you fucks would complain that he hasn’t cured influenza too.

mlg,
@mlg@lemmy.world avatar

If you wanna make that type of comparison, Joe Biden is offering a crappy pain reliever for a million dollars a bottle, giving federal funds to a random healthcare CEO, and banning import medicine that can actually cure cancer. But don’t worry because that pain reliever is “progress” and is much better than none at all.

Why the hell would I be complaining if any of these initiatives actually made significant changes in our system?

My exact complaint is that it’s nothing but election shilling, meaning he hasn’t met the minimum standard of good enough.

Good enough would have been announcing these plans 3 years ago so his administration could actually follow through. Not handing morbillions to the rail industry expecting something to magically happen, especially after killing their union strike.

Cryophilia,

Blah blah lies blah

I would ask how Trump’s dick tastes but it’s probably so small you don’t even notice it in your mouth

Maggoty,

Oh great. Another article that throws a bunch of stuff at the wall to make Biden look better than he is. Some of which are straight up lies. Student loan debt relief is not reform. A new college student today is still taking out loans and is still expected to pay them without any possibility of discharging them in a routine process. To say future borrowers must hope a future president gives them a financial pardon is not a fucking reform.

This is not the first time the BLM has done conservancy and restoration. The leases are new but this makes it sound like they dealt in nothing but oil leases before this and that’s not true.

Non Competes is a great thing but it needs to be banned by law. We watched Trump tear through policies in novel ways and it’s likely there just won’t be any enforcement by the next Republican president. We need a law like other labor laws that allows workers to take civil action on their own with stiff penalties. But this is also a mischaracterization. Better pay and working conditions are only indirectly linked to competition. Fast food employees are still facing the same shit management and shit pay no matter which company they work for. It was worded this way to push back on his negative Union actions. But Unions don’t forget.

Nursing home staffing ratios is cool but I can’t help but wonder if it’s a Presidential decision? This sounds like something out of the mid-level of HHS?

Airline ticket price clarity definitely doesn’t belong on this list. The last one might have been fluff, this one is definitely fluff.

Stop blowing smoke up my ass. The people who vote blue aren’t dumb and articles like this just make it worse.

Tricky,

So… It sounds like you’re in favour of free-education-for-all?

The sad part is, I can’t tell whether you are extreme-right or far-left. That’s how weird US politics is today.

morphballganon,

They’re extreme-right of course. Anyone on the left wouldn’t actively try to hinder our best chance at not imploding as a country.

InternetUser2012,

Fact

TheDemonBuer,
@TheDemonBuer@lemmy.world avatar

Joe Biden is going to singlehandedly save billions of lives. Trillions, even. He is literally a savior, a messiah.

swag_money,

too far. he’s still an american president.

TheDemonBuer, (edited )
@TheDemonBuer@lemmy.world avatar

Too far? Not far enough. Biden is not only the greatest American president, he’s the greatest ruler/leader to ever live. The future is only possible because of him and his wisdom and virtue. By singlehandedly solving the climate crisis, he has saved us and countless future generations. He’s basically a god.

Semi-Hemi-Demigod,
Semi-Hemi-Demigod avatar

Gotta say, I love your schtick

Tinidril,

This is so much better than all the posts shaming voters for not wanting to vote for Biden.

Biden is a far cry from the President that I want, but it’s ignorant to claim he hasn’t been a hell of a lot better than Trump, or even Obama and Clinton. After 50+ years of really shitty Presidents and an even worse Congress, Biden is arguably the best we’ve had. It’s entirely possible to promote Biden with honest accounting without trying to silence the voices saying the Democrats must do better.

That said, of the Democrats try to force Harris on us without an actual primary in 2024, then it’s time to repeat the 1968 national convention. Our FPTP system means that primaries are effectively the only real democracy we get, and the way they are run by the DNC (and RNC) is abysmal.

juicy,

Genocide Joe is better than Obama or Clinton were? That’s a hot take

treefrog,

And Clinton did as much to swell the prison industrial complex as Reagan and Nixon, while also using his office to make sexual advances on an intern.

Plus, both Obama and Clinton would have done the same shit with Israel. Both are party line progressives and we see where the party line has been.

juicy,

Plus, both Obama and Clinton would have done the same shit with Israel. Both are party line progressives and we see where the party line has been.

That’s just not true. Biden is the most rabidly pro-Israel president we’ve ever had – since before Reagan for sure.

Tinidril,

He’s actually been tougher on Israel than any US president since Reagan. That’s not saying much, but it’s sadly true. He has been against the move into Gaza from the start, and has used a lot of diplomatic pressure (though not enough by my estimation). His administration is the only reason Rafah doesn’t already look like the rest of Gaza. The idea that the US could yank Israel’s leash and stop the invasion of Gaza in it’s tracks is ignorant.

All the ranting people did to get a ceasefire from the UN was ill-conceved because when they “won” the ceasefire was issued and summarily ignored. (Like anyone familiar with foreign policy knew it would be). What the Biden administration has been working towards is a peace, not a ceasefire, and that requires sustained involvement, not removing US influence entirely to make a point.

There are signals from both sides and other nations in the region that peace might actually be achieved soon, and it has been “Genocide Joe” working on it all along while the virtue signalling squad lost their shit.

Ensign_Crab,

virtue signalling

It’s so neat watching Democrats use Republican smears like this.

Cryophilia,

We invented that phrase, Republicans just stole it and tried to use it (badly). They can’t come up with anything new. Even The Cheeto’s favorite phrase “witch hunt” was stolen from Democrats criticizing the Republican attacks on the Clintons.

Ensign_Crab,

The phrase is much older than the Clintons’ problems with Republicans. Allusions to Salem are at least as old as McCarthyism.

Cryophilia,

Thanks, Captain Pedantry

Republicans still adopted it after that instance because they’re too stupid to have read it before then.

Ensign_Crab,

Thanks, Captain Pedantry

You’re welcome, citizen! I’m glad I could inform you that things happened before the Clintons.

Tinidril,

I think putting the appearance of virtue ahead of actual virtue is a problem, no matter who does it. Anyways, the entire right wing suit of bad ideas is almost entirely virtue signalling.

juicy,

You can’t actually believe that. Biden refused to publically criticize Israel until February, four months into the genocide, when he said Israel’s actions were “over the top.” And even then, the flow of weapons has yet to even slow. Even Ronald Reagan withheld weapons from Israel when they got out of line.

Tinidril,

Biden refused to publically criticize Israel until February, four months into the genocide,

The President coming out to criticize a close ally is never going to be the first step in that direction. That’s not how foreign policy works.

And even then, the flow of weapons has yet to even slow.

Incorrect. Weapons shipments were delayed and are still being delayed. The deals went forward, but delays were introduced as some of the very first signals to Israel.

Even Ronald Reagan withheld weapons from Israel when they got out of line.

Exactly why I said “since Reagan”. Biden has at least threatened to do so, which is something that hasn’t happened since Reagan.

My position isn’t that the Biden administration has done everything right, but that the narrative where they have done nothing but defend Israel is bunk. The general strategy of slowly turning up the heat is the best way to maximize US influence by my estimation, but I think the dial has been turned way too slowly.

Foreign policy is way more complicated than most people think. There is an entire region that has to be considered over decades, not just the issue catching people’s attention at the moment. As bad as things are in Gaza, they could be worse, and they could be far more widespread. If Israel goes to war with any of their rivals, all pretense of restraint in Gaza will end immediately.

Ensign_Crab,

Weapons shipments were delayed and are still being delayed. The deals went forward, but delays were introduced as some of the very first signals to Israel.

Got a source for that?

Tinidril,
Ensign_Crab,

Thank you.

Maggoty,

And then sent them anyways in violation of the Leahy Law. You forgot that part.

juicy,

First two links are exclusively about rifles, not the bombs and shells being used on families in Gaza. The third article says:

When asked about the allegation, several U.S. officials said there was no change in U.S. policy or any deliberate delay in delivering previously promised aid or weapons sales to Israel.

Your last two articles say that three months ago the administration was considering thinking about exploring the possibility of debating the merits of slowing weapon deliveries.

It’s not pragmatic to twiddle your thumbs while your weapons are used to commit atrocities. It’s evil.

Tinidril,

The false statement I was correcting was about “weapons”. You never mentioned “bombs and shells”. Here is the thing about bombs and shells. Israel has plenty of dumb bombs and shells, and they don’t need the US to get more. What they get from the US are precision weapons, which means fewer bombs are required to hit a target. Whatever you think of Israeli tactics (and we probably agree completely) it’s better for them to have the precision weapons.

The whole point of slow rolling weapons shipments is to be able to send a signal but maintain official deniability. Actually denying it is just maintaining that veneer.

It’s not pragmatic to twiddle your thumbs while your weapons are used to commit atrocities. It’s evil.

I stated my position clearly so that it wouldn’t be misconstrued, but you went and did it anyways. I support the general strategy of ramping up pressure, but I think it has been done far too slowly. I’m sure it has a lot to do with the powerful Israel lobby, but we passed the point where that should matter a long time ago.

pjwestin,

Clinton was very invested in creating Israelis-Palestinian peace, I don’t think he would have been as passive on the Palestinian death toll as Biden was at the beginning of the conflict. Obama was willing to go up against Netanyahu when he wanted something (like the Iran Nuclear Deal), so I think it’s likely he would have also had a stronger response to the Israeli genocide, as long as it was politically expedient for him. On most issues, I think Biden has actually been better than the (admittedly very low) expectations I have for the Democratic party, but I think he’s actually worse than his party’s predecessors on Israel.

ours,

Obama preferred to bomb civilians directly rather than by proxy (CIA drone assassination program).

Still, all far better than Trump. Like Trump wouldn’t have bent over Israel pressure himself.

juicy,

You’re right, it would’ve been the same with Trump. I would never vote for him either.

ours,

The 2 party system sucks balls.

HubertManne,
HubertManne avatar

I mean he has been quite a bit better than any president I have experienced in office but it is sad that the bar is so low.

Eldritch,

This is the correct response. He’s been world’s better than expected on many things. But between those expectations and Republicans that bar was ridiculously low.

There are many things I wish biden and Democrats would do. But complaint wise Biden’s kid gloves and undeservedly diplomatic tone with Israel is the biggest. Though completely expected given the century of propaganda and enabling of such a dangerous regime over there. It doesn’t all fall on biden. But he still wrong for his part.

HubertManne,
HubertManne avatar

oh yeah but when I say the bar is ridiculously low I mean like taking into account all the presidents I have had experience with. Im like old and to have biden be the best to me is sorta sad. previously I felt the same way with obama and the current pope. I feel like there should be a sign saying you must be at least this competent to be president with their picture and most of the presidents would then be disqualified. Like this is the crappiest you can be to hold the office. instead (at least for me) they are the best. Im not even comparing to trump now who is so opposite end of the spectrum and did the monumental achievement of making bush junior not seem so bad (yes yes. I know thats debatable as his random crazy sellout stupid is hard to measure against calculating power for us by which im talking channey of course).

MegaUltraChicken,

without trying to silence the voices saying the Democrats must do better

I genuinely don’t understand where this comes from. I haven’t seen a single serious person argue that we shouldn’t criticize the Biden administration or the Democrats. What does get pushback is the idea that we shouldn’t vote for them in November. When someone is suggesting the solution to the very real issues the Democratic Party has is to enable the GOP and give them more power they absolutely should get chastised.

Agreed on everything else though. If everyone who was upset about Biden actually got involved and voted in the primaries it would be much easier to get representation that actually serves our needs. The DNC only has so much control.

Tinidril,

There are several places it comes from.

First, there has been a meme campaign about Biden being better than Trump that seems to go out of it’s way to “call out” those of us who are fed up with the behavior of the Democratic establishment (DE). They imply we are fools who don’t comprehend how bad Trump is. The people those memes are directed at don’t really exist. They are a myth put out by the DE to sideline progressives. There has also been a recent wave of right wing bots that perpetuate the myth to further drive the wedge between progressives and the DE. Those bots aren’t going to be convinced, and progressives don’t need to be.

The second is that it is nearly impossible to criticize the DE without getting lectured about how much worse Trump is. Being a tiny bit better than fascist is apparently enough for Democrats privileged enough to not suffer under even Democratic policies. I think this video shows a great example. I try to always mention that Republicans are worse when criticizing Democrats, but that rarely makes a difference.

The third place is from old timers like me who have watched Democrats coddle fascism ever since Reagan. What we are living through now didn’t start with Trump, and it wasn’t just the fault of Republicans. Many of us have been fighting Democratic mediocrity since before most Americans ever heard of Bernie Sanders. The DE is routinely snide and dismissive of the left, even as they fail to grasp the Republican threat. They say the country wants centrists, but run to the left with their rhetoric before every election. In that context, both of the previously mentioned items tend to strike a nerve.

Cryophilia,

The second is that it is nearly impossible to criticize the DE without getting lectured about how much worse Trump is.

Maybe if it was actually believable, but there’s so much propaganda now that unless you repeatedly and proactively affirm that people should vote for Biden, I’ll assume that any criticism is just more right wing attempts at voter suppression.

If Biden wins the election, then we can have a lot more open criticism of Democratic policies because the bots, trolls, and agents provacateur will go away.

Tinidril,

Has it occurred to you that making that assumption could also result in suppressed voter enthusiasm? Put yourself in the head of a genuine lefty who’s fed up with Democratic shenanigans. What messaging might keep you in the fold, and what will drive you away?

Something else to keep in mind is that it’s not just voting that we’re talking about. Democrats need volunteers, donations, and word of mouth. Broad enthusiasm is critical for all of that. Who wants to volunteer for a movement that denies them a voice?

For decades now, every election has been called the most critical of our lives, and sadly it’s been pretty consistently true. We have elections every two years. Criticism in the first year is called unfair because they just took office. Criticism on the second year is always called disloyalty in a critical election year. Disinformation is only going to be getting worse, so waiting for that to end is not viable.

Cryophilia,

Put yourself in the head of a genuine lefty who’s fed up with Democratic shenanigans.

Okay.

Words words words words

I’m sorry, I got bored. Can you make that into a tiktok video for easier consumption?

Tinidril,

I’ve really got to stop being optimistic about devout Democrats. It really is the party of James Carville and Hillary Clinton - ignorant, elitist, and tone deaf until the end of time.

Cryophilia,

LOCK HER UP

I mean uh…sorry, that just came out. I meant um…something something Bernie something something DNC?

  • Totally A Real Leftist And Not A GOP Plant
Tinidril,

So I’m a right wing troll now? Think about it logically for a second. What do right wing trolls want to do when they jump into internal Democratic disputes? I’m pretty sure their primary goal would be to drive a wedge between the activist left and the establishment. Now, what am I arguing for? If you look back on this thread, I’m encouraging Democratic loyalists to post more content about Biden’s accomplishments instead of trying to shame voters. It’s basic conflict resolution. You aren’t going to get any kind of reconciliation by being rude and dismissive. My whole point is to bring as much reconciliation to the Democrats as I can without compromising my political beliefs.

There is a serious rift in the Democratic party that you seem to be somehow completely unaware of. It didn’t start with Hillary, or even Bill or Bernie. Look into the 1968 Democratic Convention in Chicago if you want to understand how deep and far back the rift goes. You aren’t going to pave over the differences by belittling or dismissing legitimate disagreement. The only way to get to a unified front against Trump and his fascists is to acknowledge the differences in a respectful way, and then emphasize what can be gained by working together. That’s way more important than trying to win some kind of smug victory in an online forum.

The idea that I’m a right wing troll is ridiculous, and I think you could learn a lot by exploring why you jump so easily to that assumption. If people like you didn’t exist, right wing trolls would have to play your side as well. They want us sniping at each-other. Compare it to Hamas’ strategy in attacking Israel. They knew that Israel couldn’t help overreacting and destroying their own credibility. It’s the same thing Osama bin Laden did to the US. When right wing trolls spread their disingenuous bullshit, their whole goal is to get a reaction from Democratic loyalists that further alienates the Democratic establishment from it’s base.

Cryophilia,

The idea that I’m a right wing troll is ridiculous, and I think you could learn a lot by exploring why you jump so easily to that assumption.

I mean, okay, let’s give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re being genuine here. Surely you acknowledge the absolute deluge of obvious propaganda, rehashed from 2016, trying to convince young, idealistic, uninformed voters to either not vote or to vote 3rd party. It’s not an unreasonable assumption that anyone making comments in that vein is an agitator or a useful idiot. It’s correct most of the time.

Getting drawn into one-sided good faith debates with such people is playing into their hands. Ridicule and dismissal defeats them.

Tinidril,

okay, let’s give you the benefit of the doubt

If there is still doubt then you’re just an idiot, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just think you’re being witty.

I acknowledge Oct 7. That doesn’t mean I endorse the response. It seems like an obvious response. It seems maximally oppositional to their attackers. It’s also exactly what their attackers wanted.

Getting drawn into one-sided good faith debates with such people is playing into their hands. Ridicule and dismissal defeats them.

I’ve already explained to you why this is wrong. You are just making an assertion without even a hint of a theory as to why it’s correct. You don’t think that they expect you to do this? You think they don’t expect you to piss off actual progressives when you act that way?

You identified me as a right wing troll as a result of their posts, and I never even said anything of the sort. In my recent history you can see me arguing against a lot of their bullshit, including “genocide Joe”. Hell, you can go back to 10+ years of posts on Reddit with this username if you really want.

This is exactly the dumb behavior my original comment was about. You’re not helping.

Cryophilia,

Do you or do you not acknowledge that there have been a lot of trolls and propaganda? Instead of answering my question you went on a weird tangent about Oct 7.

Tinidril,

It wasn’t a tangent, it was an analogy. I have also made it clear several times that right wing trolls exist. Why would I be discussing their strategy and how you’re playing into it if I didn’t think they exist? I don’t think you are exactly trolling, but at this point it’s clear to me that you are not trying to understand what I’m saying at all. I see no point in continuing.

Cryophilia,

Well we need to have a baseline agreement on the state of things before we discuss how best to handle it. I was trying to nail you down on that first. If you didn’t believe trolls were a problem, there’d be no point in discussing how to handle them.

Tinidril,

Everything you need to understand my position is in the thread. I haven’t exactly been difficult to follow.

It’s all moot anyways. It just became crystal clear that Biden doesn’t care about the election, so it’s all going to come down to how quickly Trump implodes.

Cryophilia,

You’re talking about his statement on the protests? If so, I wish I could agree. I’m very disappointed in his stance. But it’s definitely calculated to win the election. There’s just more Israel supporters than Palestine supporters. And the Israel supporters are far more likely to vote. Did he do the right thing, morally? No. Did he do the thing more likely to win him votes? Probably.

Tinidril,

OMFG, if we are going to do this, can you promise to pay attention? I’ll be optimistic and assume you’ll try this time.

First of all, you are just flat wrong about support for Israel’s occupation of Gaza. Maybe on October 8, but that support has tumbled.

news.gallup.com/…/majority-disapprove-israeli-act…

Second, Democrats win or lose elections on exactly one thing - turnout. The voters who may or may not show up are the whole fucking ballgame.

Third, the handling of that press conference was absolute political malpractice. I’m no fan of spin, but sometimes not even trying can be even more insulting.

Reporter: Have these protests caused you to reconsider any of the policies with regard to the region?

Biden: “No.” - Mic drop, leaves podium.

Even without all the unnecessary lies in the rest of the conference, that is an absolute trash fire. Nobody expected Biden would stop supporting Israel, but being that tone deaf is remarkable for a career politician at the literal peak of their profession.

Cryophilia,

I agree with everything except the second point. What you say is true, but Leftists have proven themselves not to be counted on for turnout. A Democrat could expend all their energy chasing the Left, alienating a lot of centrists, and then one little thing starts making the rounds on Tiktok right before the election and y’all will abandon him. It doesn’t even have to be true. The GOP could make a doctored video of him saying the N-word, and the suspicion alone would drive away enough Leftists to cost him the election.

Centrist voters are dependable. Leftist voters are fickle. Add in the fact that there’s a LOT more centrist voters, and the calculus is obvious.

That said, I do think he blundered here. As you said, numbers on Israel are changing. Biden came down too hard on the side of Israel, not just morally but also politically.

Bidens best bet here was to be vague and noncommittal until Israel finally commits an atrocity covered enough by the media to tip a critical mass of centrists against Israel. Then Biden could suspend aid and be seen as a hero by all. He’s severely limited the chance of that happening now.

Tinidril,

I agree with everything except the second point.

That’s amazing since all three points were in direct contradiction to what you just said.

Leftists have proven themselves not to be counted on for turnout.

False. If you went with young voters then you might have a point, except that I would disagree with the framing. I would frame it as “The establishment Democratic candidates have proven themselves incapable of earning the youth vote”. That’s certainly now the case for 2024.

The whole centrist thing hasn’t been valid since the 90s. The electorate isn’t laid out on spectrum from left to right anymore - if it ever was. A real discussion of how it breaks down would get really involved, but the populist/establishment divide is quickly becoming dominant over left/right. That’s why Trump beat Hillary. The Democrats ran the most establishment centrist candidate possible against a far right populist and we all paid the price. The centrist position today is “Yeah, the politicians are corrupt as hell, but it’s working out for me”. It has nothing to do with the left/right spectrum. Centrist Democrats underperform in blue, red, and purple districts when compared to progressives in similar districts.

The numbers I showed you on support for the occupation included right wing voters who are almost entirely backing Israel. The percentage of voters who might vote for Biden and support Israel is small and shrinking fast.

There is no path now for Biden to be seen as the good guy, and he absolutely isn’t going to suspend enough aid to move Israel anyways.

Cryophilia,

The numbers I showed you on support for the occupation included right wing voters who are almost entirely backing Israel.

Speaking of direct contradiction, this statement directly contradicts your weird idea that there’s really no difference between right wing and left wing populist voters. Have you been hiding under a rock since 2008? Yes I agree, in the late 90s/early 2000s the gap between right and left was narrowing, but since the tea party Qanon phenomenon right wingers have gone off the deep end.

Centrist Democrats underperform in blue, red, and purple districts when compared to progressives in similar districts.

What are you smoking? That’s not true at all. Moderates win. A lot. Red and blue.

Tinidril,

Speaking of direct contradiction, this statement directly contradicts your weird idea that there’s really no difference between right wing and left wing populist voters.

That’s going a lot further than I said. There are definitely left wing and right wing populists (i.e. Bernie and Trump) but most Americans aren’t policy wonks and don’t care a bit about left vs right political philosophy. These aren’t centrists because they aren’t on the line at all. However, a whole lot of those Americans have begun noticing that their money is somehow being taken by a tiny minority with obscene levels of wealth. These are the people that either sit out elections, or vote for a “reform” candidate. Trump, disingenuous as he is, effectively ran against the political establishment of both parties in 2016, while Hillary ran as a competent manager of the status quo.

What happens when the Democratic party runs after so called centrists with an establishment candidate is that they make right wing populism more attractive than left wing, and that’s where Trump’s base comes from. It’s not unique to America or post 2k politics, it’s how fascism always gets a foothold. It’s all just 1930s Germany all over again. It’s really not a dynamic that is well illustrated by a one dimensional line from left to right. A lot of voters that get categorized as the extreme right are the most conducive to populist left wing politicians. A Bernie Sanders gets a far better response from them than a Joe Biden or Hillary Clinton ever will.

That’s not true at all.

Actually it is true, but I can’t find the study at the moment. It’s specifically about House races, which I do admit are a bit different from the Senate or Presidency. Two seemingly contradictory things are actually true. Progressives do tend to lose in redder districts more than establishment candidates, but they also tend to perform better when measured against typical outcomes for that district. The resolution to that contradiction is that the establishment fiercely fights to keep progressives out of districts that Democrats might win so, the average district progressives run in is more republican than the average district establishment candidates run in. What’s true in almost every race is that progressives do better at outperforming local historical outcomes in almost any district. Whether that gets translated into a better win/loss ratio is dependent on which districts progressives get to run in.

Here are a few of links I did come across when looking for that study. They don’t address it directly, but they do illustrate how the press struggles to map election dynamics to the left-right spectrum.

politico.com/…/how-to-turn-red-state-blue-purple-…

publicconsultation.org/…/new-study-finds-people-i…

princeton.edu/…/purple-districts-elect-most-extre…

Cryophilia,

What’s true in almost every race is that progressives do better at outperforming local historical outcomes in almost any district.

Sounds plausible.

Whether that gets translated into a better win/loss ratio is dependent on which districts progressives get to run in.

For local races, maybe. Senate and President, you have to win over the moderate behemoth.

Tinidril,

Senate and President, you have to win over the moderate behemoth.

Like Trump?

What the liberals and the media decry as “polarization” is contradictory to that assertion. It also masks the real behemoth which is Americans who think the government is controlled by money and that their needs are irrelevant.

It’s also contradicted by the fact that, right before every election, Democratic politicians consistently move their rhetoric to the left. Just look at all the sudden activity from the Biden administration. Well, not Hillary, but most.

BTW: If it’s the moderates really deciding elections, why is nobody lecturing them? Why all the attention on a group that doesn’t matter (until liberals need a scapegoat)? This is just the liberal version of the fascist rhetoric “Our enemies are always both strong and weak”. Progressives are both critical and irrelevant, as needed.

What passes as centrism in politics is actually pro-corruption or pro-corporation. The fact is that left leaning policy is what wins over voters, even those that don’t consider themselves leftist. Furthermore, the Democratic establishment knows it and cynically uses it.

Cryophilia,

No one is lecturing Progressives. People are lecturing Leftists. Leftists have the numbers to give Republicans the win, since elections are so tight nowadays. But leftists don’t have the numbers to win primaries or dictate policy positions without playing a game of brinksmanship. “Give us our demands or we’ll let the fascists win” is the only play that Leftists have because they’re a small minority. And it’s a shitty move, which is why they’re being lectured.

The fact is that left leaning policy is what wins over voters, even those that don’t consider themselves leftist.

Yes but not when it’s coming from Leftists.

People are unbelievably, irredeemable stupid. See “Affordable Care Act” vs “Obamacare”. See “I dunno why, I just don’t like the vibes of Hillary/Warren/Harris”. See “despite all the stats saying otherwise, I believe we’re in the middle of a CRIME EPIDEMIC”.

And for the record, Trump did win over the moderate Republicans. Moderate Republicans are generally okay with extreme positions as long as their core demands are met. Democrat moderates need much more convincing.

Tinidril,

No one is lecturing Progressives. People are lecturing Leftists.

Leftists range from progressives to communists, the vast majority of which are progressive in the US. You are trying to draw a very fine line here between two groups that almost completely overlap. In any case, you are wrong about nobody lecturing progressives.

Leftists have the numbers to give Republicans the win

Not if you exclude those that identify as progressives. If you include progressives, then the lie becomes the idea that leftists don’t show up. You keep making that assertion, and it’s absolute fiction. There is no evidence whatsoever that a significant portion of those politically engaged enough to identify as leftists don’t show up for Democrats. What happens is that when the establishment fails to work with and reach out to progressives, they also fail to reach the fed-up Americans who have checked out of politics completely. Leftist/progressive policies are what drive engagement with many Americans who don’t identify as leftists.

But leftists don’t have the numbers to win primaries or dictate policy positions without playing a game of brinksmanship.

Is this supposed to be an argument against leftists using brinkmanship? “It’s your only weapon so you better not use it.” I think your framing is nonsense, of course, but taken at face value it doesn’t really make the case you want it to. Also, the biggest factor hurting progressives is the myth that they can’t win in the general. Exit polls were crystal clear that Democratic voters favored Sanders on policy, but thought he couldn’t beat Trump. Polling on Biden vs Trump and Sanders vs Trump was nearly identical BTW, but you would never know that from the media coverage. Incidentally, I’m wondering if you are aware of how AOC unexpectedly beat Pelosi’s protege. She didn’t focus on moderates, she focused on unlikely voters. Leftist policies are the key to grassroots outreach to disaffected (non)voters.

People are unbelievably, irredeemable stupid. See “Affordable Care Act” vs “Obamacare”.

The “people” you are talking about are the ones buried in the right wing media bubble. There is less than a 10% swing in approval ratings for Obamacare and the ACA.

See “I dunno why, I just don’t like the vibes of Hillary/Warren/Harris”.

I’m personally not big on the “Vibes” of Hillary/Warren/Harris either, and I’m guessing that indicates I’m sexist or something? Warren at least has a leftist bent, even if she is cynically an establishment tool. I’ll take AOC/Porter/Omar please.

See “despite all the stats saying otherwise, I believe we’re in the middle of a CRIME EPIDEMIC”.

You might be a bit behind on the news, but it’s recently surfaced that there were some major changes in how the FBI collects crime statistics that easily account for most of the drop Biden has been bragging on. Still, you are right that there is no evidence of a real “CRIME EPIDEMIC” nationally. Still, we are not talking about people that are likely to vote for Democrats here.

Moderate Republicans are generally okay with extreme positions as long as their core demands are met.

There is no such thing as a moderate Republican. All the worst things done by the first Trump administration were driven by and perfectly consistent with “moderate” Republican policies and rhetoric. Even January 6 was just the next logical step in Republican election rigging. Aside from the spectacle, it wasn’t much different than the Supreme Court putting W in office.

Cryophilia,

The percentage of voters who might vote for Biden and support Israel is small and shrinking fast.

The important point is that I do agree that this trend is happening, and Biden is moving in the wrong direction here. His most loyal base has always been pro-Israel, but they’re becoming alienated. He will be forced to pivot soon.

The smart move would have been for him to publicly voice disapproval of Netanyahu but privately continue funding him, for now, with an eye to cutting funding if poll numbers get worse. The fact that he came so heavily on the side of “break up the protesters” was a massive miscalculation. All his career being 110% pro-Israel would have been the smart move, but no longer.

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