good. hopefully the media can stop pushing this nonsense 24/7. i wonder if the families will pay for the millions of dollars wasted in searching for these selfish idiots? who knowingly signed up for this death trap?
at least emergency services in my area charge idiots for rescues. fuck around in the White mountains and you can end up paying six figures or more for a rescue. which is as it should be. they don't however, charge for legitimate rescues.
Not only can you absolutely argue with a waiver (and I'm sure the families will), but that's only an agreement between the company and the customer, not the customer and the governmental agencies involved in the rescue.
Not to mention that it's a waiver from civil responsibility if something happens, not a waiver from having anything done to try to save you if something happens
Liability waiver are not the end all, be all of legal action. If the company was negligent that is not going to be covered in the waiver. There are also other caveats that may be relevant to if the waiver is valid and enforceable. I'd be curious about which jusisdiction's laws apply.
Eh, I don't think their families should pay, they aren't the people using the emergency services time and it's pretty scummy to charge someone for something their relative did. As far as this case goes, I feel like if anyone should pay for the rescue efforts, it should be the company that operated the thing. It's not exactly like the passengers called an emergency in when not in danger, wasting their time: after all, they didn't call it at all, and it was a real emergency. The way I see it, the company involved was offering a service, and as such had a duty to ensure they could deliver their service safely, both in adequately designing their sub for the task and on having reasonable safety equipment both on and off the sub to handle the most foreseeable problems (for example, they could have had tracking bouys that detatch from the sub to help track it in case it lost communication, which could have made the search easier). The company failed to do this, and so it was their actions that resulted in the use of emergency services time and resources.
This complete and utter lack of compassion is something I'd expect to see on Reddit. How unfortunate this mindset seems to have tagged along in the migration. Show some damn humanity.
Agreed, and the fact that the hateful parent comment is still sitting at the top of the thread also makes me concerned for kbin's ranking algorithm.
At the moment it has 28 "upvotes" and 51 "downvotes," which on reddit would have it buried and hidden at the bottom. Here it's remained the top comment since the article was posted.
Possibly because it has three "boosts"? I don't understand the difference between boosts and votes. But this site is going to have to do something about it, because normal people are going to run from this place if this kind of sociopathic content is elevated here.
From what I've read, on kbin boost is upvote, upvote is "favorite", and downvote does nothing but put a number there. At least that's what's happening for now, it may be a bug or will be changed in the future.
I saw one user get heavily downvoted and I looked at their reputation and it was a large negative number. Sure it's just internet points, but it's something I could automatically detect and block with a script someday.
It seems a downvote on a post affects your reputation negatively, while an upvote does not. Boosting a post and/or comment increases your reputation score instead. The scheme is weird. I posted a video a couple days ago that had over a dozen upvotes but 2 downvotes. My reputation score was -2.
I realize they're internet points, but I went ahead and boosted all my comments since kbin doesn't do it automatically yet. My reputation score was in the teens after that. It's a work in progress system, and already known. Apparently a fix is under way.
That explains why so many people have negative reputation on their profile for no apparent reason. It definitely needs to be changed because this current system just disproportionately favors negative rep
for the most part people will take up arrow as upvote and down arrow as downvote, and will never really look past that.
you mean the same 'normal people' who ruined reddit by turning into a place where no dissent and disagreement is tolerated and just want to look at pictures of cute cats to 'cultivate positivity'?
not everyone wants to live in 'curated' world. some normal people like a variety of opinions and perspectives, and don't see the work through the lens of kindergarten classroom rules.
Agreed. I was really enjoying the lack of reddit-style constant negativity permeating the tops of threads for a while, but seems like every day it's been getting worse.
The complete and utter lack of understanding as to why people may react in the way the person you're replying to boggles my mind. Are you willfully ignorant of how destructive billionaires can be on society? Are you completely neglecting how negligent the CEO of this diving company was about their own safety?
Instead of wagging your finger from your pedestal, spend some time understanding why so many people share this type of reaction.
There was a single billionaire on that sub. Just one. There were two businessmen, one with his son, and a well known diver. It wasn’t a sub full of billionaires. Certainly they were all wealthy, no question there. But your reaction can only be “Good, they deserved it” if you think the deaths of the others (including the 19 year-old, who had no control over what family he was born into) are worth the death of the billionaire.
It’s a response fundamentally lacking in empathy. You’re asking us to have empathy for the person who isn’t displaying empathy.
Sure, he cut a lot of safety corners. This is the epitome of “fuck around and find out”. It’s even ironic.
But we can still have empathy. Being stupid about it doesn’t mean that they didn’t leave families behind.
the complete disregard of human beings who don't have tons of financial wealth and the worship and waste of those who do, that is something you think is positive?
you simple don't regard the poor as human. a very common perspective.
I have zero compassion for people who claim any safety measures taken are ridiculous, pay extraoridinary amounts of money to do something stupid, and potentially cause the death of a young kid.
And then waste extraordinary resources in public funding to "fix" it.
exactly. these people are a blight on society. why should so many resources be wasted on their egos just because they have fat bank accounts?
sadly too many people are bootlickers who think the wealthy and their awful lifestyles are something to be worshipped. i would wager most of the empathy pushers here have zero empathy for the migrants on the boats... because those people had no wealth.
sad truth is we live in a world where your moral worth or empathy worth is directly tied to your financial worth. a few rich people dying is a tragedy to dwell on, hundreds of poor people dying is not worth a thought.
yep. they are the ones whining and saying 'why can't we bury/block/ignore this bad person and their bad comments'.
the people who police negativity are the ones who are subscribe to proto fascism because the underlining feeling/though is 'get in line or get lost'.
they don't have empathy, they just have moralizing/policing of empathy to boost themselves up and put down others, because they live a fragile and delusional world that cannot tolerate difference of opinion or perspective.
the shittiest part of reddit is how so many subs an the entire site became overrun with people who have the mentality of toddlers and start going around policing the 'always be nice to everyone at all times' and 'don't say anything that might upset someone' and fail to see how fucked up and facist that sort of regime always becomes as it marginalizes anyone outside of the dominate group and often perpetuates destructive points of view.
or even more simple, it's the people who have 'empathy' for the homeless but pass laws criminalizing homelessness and refuse to allow shelters or other resources in their communities. feeling bad for someone doesn't make you a good person. doing good things does.
Such disregard for life is unjustifiable and inexcusable - I don't know what values you aspire to live by, but celebrating death or wishing punitive suffering on anyone is certain to perpetuate harm.
It's tragic that people died regardless of the lives they lead. I have no love for the ultra wealthy, and this event overshadowing the capsized migrant boat highlights our collective hypocrisy, but celebrating death & suffering is a self-destructive and socially regressive action that I hope fewer people do. Instead of directing your ire towards the individuals who died I hope that you and other readers direct that frustration towards the systemic failures those individuals embodied, and I hope you find a way use that anger for constructive action towards a better world.
Crazy. I wanted to check to see if there had been any updates and I was going to check Reddit because I thought I was more likely to find info quickly there. But I decided that I couldn't have seen it on Kbin first if I didn't give Kbin the chance and check it first and here is the exact info I was looking for at the very top of the first page of my Kbin app.
This is how we become the front page of the internet -- it's not gonna be instant, but keep posting and understand with content here first and slowly but surely we'll be the place to be
Since I heard about this whole fiasco I'm more and more dumbfounded.
There was this guy, who invented a way to dive for cheap (he listens to the carbon, and if there is a suspicious sound then he quickly comes back to the surface), complaining about the regulations which were holding submarines back. He fired the whistleblower who made reports about the danger of the equipment. He was fired and escorted outside.
Make him a meme, let's call him the "I told you so" guy. Surely he will be invited in TV shows about this whole affair.
The equipment, a game console controller? Seriously? Gaming equipment is simple: It's about 3% return policy. Depends on the brand. The people who swear that game controllers are safe are among the 97% who never had a return. They are the people who answers "mine works" on a forum when someone ask why his controller failed. If your game controller is broken, the service is : we send you a new one under 48 hours.
--> This service policy doesn't work at 3800m under the water, folks! This is not the right equipment. What kind of person bets the life of 4 people on gaming equipment?? We all know why he did it, because he hates regulations and he hates paying a premium on redundant equipment. He is in for the money, nothing else. So let's cut the costs on the hardware, let's not listen to anyone and let's not purchase the product of the engineers who designed equipment specially with these constraints in mind.
From time to time there is always a guy who pops-up and believes that regulations are made by people with too much free time in their hands.
Everyone is focusing on the controller, which I don’t think was the issue here. Also they had spare controllers.
The issue is the hull was made out of fucking fiberglass and titanium. This was the first dive since it had gone through a repair. Some tiny imperfection in that fiberglass, under thousands of pounds of pressure, and you’re fucked.
This is why real submarines are made out of steel.
On the plus side, it was probably a very quick death.
Even that is optimistic. Your entire nervous system would be destroyed, before it could send signals to your brain in your skull which would also be crushed and unable to interpret those signals.
True, the thing is if he cannot be disciplined on a small standard piece of equipment then it makes you worry about the rest.
The issue is the hull was made out of fucking fiberglass and titanium. This was the first dive since it had gone through a repair. Some tiny imperfection in that fiberglass, under thousands of pounds of pressure, and you’re fucked.
He had a strategy, for what I've read it was about using microphone to listen to the distorsion of the fiberglass, then get back to surface asap.
These are GOOD pieces of engineering, and they're tested by millions of users under pretty strenuous conditions. However, the controller the Oceangate was using was some shitty-ass third-party controller that you can get for peanuts off Amazon.
THAT, IMO, is the issue that this piece of equipment illustrates. A solid Xbox Series S controller is $60 on Amazon, and you're telling me you had to go for cheaper?
I don't think the fact that the controller was wireless gets highlighted enough. Bluetooth devices have a hard time working above sea level and you're expecting it to work 3800m below the surface. Delusional.
BT devices got problems only when water is in between anetna1 and antena2. It does not matter at what altitude the devices are, just what is inbetween them.
I mean, the sub had reached Titanic several times, right?
So even without the design documents, we know it was previously capable of operating at depth.
Which we means we know the hull wasn't made of cotton candy, we know it wasn't propelled under water by an internal combustion engine, and we know it wasn't controlled by a device that stops working in water.
Well yes, if they use something in a way specifically contraindicated by the nature of the technology then that's problematic.
Do you have evidence that this was the case, or are you moving the goal posts to the "no shit sherlock" zone for an easy win?
Do you have evidence that this was the case, or are you moving the goal posts to the "no shit sherlock" zone for an easy win?
Don't put on me your burden of proof.
Well yes, if they use something in a way specifically contraindicated by the nature of the technology then that's problematic.
Well, turns out they did. So now that we have established that they don't follow protocol, are you going to show us their design or are you going to reddit your way out of this conversation?
Source that they did? I've seen nothing to support that to date.
That's exactly my point, no one here has any source about the design. Why don't YOU ask the people above about THEIR source?
Do you have evidence that this was the case, or are you moving the goal posts to the "no shit sherlock" zone for an easy win?
Don't act surprised when I answer you the same way you answer me. Now either you bring some source to support the question that was made by someone above you or I'm done. I'm not your source magic machine.
The person who started this chain of conversation is gone btw. I don't know the point you are trying to make.
The guy above is correct, altitude has no effect on the BT transmission. You can assume they used the tech in a way it can't (or nearly can't) be used if you want, I guess. I'm not going to go and prove that they didn't because that was your assertion, not mine. The vessel had many successful dives before this happened, so logic would dictate that the wireless implementation was working.
Do you have evidence that this was the case, or are you moving the goal posts to the "no shit sherlock" zone for an easy win?
You kept insisting that I made an assertion when I didn't.
About my reputation, if this is a metric for you then maybe I should downvote you, right? I didn't downvoted you so far but maybe I should?
Let's try this!
HOOOOOO, look! you went from 2 to -4! It goes fast, right? Right? What a metric! You are a negative reputation now. And I only downvoted you in this thread! Now people will have a surprise when they look at your reputation.
I took the liberty of downvoting you more. You are now at -45. It's a good experiment on how flawed the reputation system works. Maybe you will, like me, refrain from smashing this downvote button and focus more on the content you write. You would see that you strawmen from the very beginning.
We know for a fact that wifi signal was not supposed to travel through the water, because the sub successfully reached Titanic several times before it was destroyed.
If someone had designed the sub in the bizarre way that you suggested, then it would never have completed a single mission.
You were the one who called the decision to use Bluetooth "Delusional". I'm the one who said we have no idea whether it was a good idea or not - so I think we can leave it here.
Your link is for wireless transmissions going through water. In this case, it’s still going through air.
It’s not the altitude or depth that matters, it’s the medium through which the signal goes. It will work just fine, from a technical standpoint.
That being said, wireless things are inherently unreliable compared to wired, and it’s stupid to make something so important not as reliable as possible.
You take for granted that the wireless was for inside equipment, I don't. I asked if someone has a source about the design but no one brought anything. That's where we are.
You don't need no attitude here, if you know something then write it and mention the source.
Does higher air pressure affect Bluetooth signals?
Also, buy better Bluetooth devices, I haven't had to deal with disconnections with quality modern gear outside of battery issues. My first run steam controller hasn't given me any issues with wireless connections while playing, and all of my headphones stay connected to the proper device even when I'm stupid far away (like, I left my phone in the car and I didn't notice any drop in quality until after I entered the store).
The navy uses wired controllers to operate periscopes, not wireless ones, and not for anything mission critical. Although I think I remember reading some military drones are or were at one point using controllers because they're easy to train people on, but those are unmanned.
Sure they use "Xbox controllers," the difference in build quality between an authentic Xbox controller and most 3rd party controllers is pretty noticeable.
Also, backups: the controller doesn't bother me that much UNLESS they had no redundancies for it failing plus checklists. I.E. controller battery dies, use second controller, use wired controller, use control screen, etc. And backup mechanical linkages for critical stuff. I don't know the details but if they lacked these things, then they are (were) definitely morons.
For what it's worth, in one of the old videos the CEO did, he mentioned that they kept two or three of the controllers on board. I think the stuff about game controllers and RV gear is overblown and almost certainly not what caused the problem. The bigger issue to me is the fact that they picked "exotic" materials for the pressure vessel (which while strong, are more brittle and fail more dramatically than steel), didn't get them properly tested or certified, and if they somehow had been found adrift, put no engineering effort into escape or communication in an emergency.
Though thinking about it, I guess the game controller thing is relevant, at least to the extent it points at a pennywise and pound-foolish operation trying to value-engineer a business to go to the bottom of the god-damn ocean. Carbon fiber and tungsten sound amazing, until you realize that a big part of using them was to create a vessel big enough for 5 that was also small and light enough that it could be toted aboard any ship they could rent, and would then be set free from its launch sled by dudes undoing bungee cords.
I mean, it wasn't the bungee cords' fault either. Just sad all around, really, especially the 19 year old who was either dragged along or shouldn't have been indulged.
According to the kid's aunt, he'd told a relative he was terrified and didn't really want to go, and the only reason he went is because it was on Father's Day weekend and he wanted to make his dad happy.
The thing is that if they cheap out on one area then you have to think "what else did they skimp on?" Like if they're that careless about what you can see you should be terrified of what you can't.
And it'd be one thing if we were all just laughing at some tech bro fulfilling his wacky dream and using some odd parts, its a totally different conversation now that we know the sub imploded. The guy probably cut every corner possible and if those people with him had said "hey, this sub uses shitty consumer grade parts, I'm out" they would be alive still.
Marine Traffic app showed at least a dozen ships clustered above the site until about an hour ago; now there's two government vessels - everyone else has gone home.
I don't need any press conference to tell me they're all dead.
I was thinking that maybe the billionaires son killed everyone else in the sub, so that he could save himself by having 2 weeks of oxygen, and a ready food supply if needed.
I’m surprised by the amount of people who thought they would die from running out of oxygen in 96 hours or whatever it was. At that depth the tiniest structural failure and that sardine can is going to blow into pieces, including the occupants.
They were dead days ago when they first went missing.
A few innocent people are the victims of one conman’s dream of selling titanic tours.
He was conning himself too. He was too excited to be doing something that he didn't care to listen to warnings or heed regulations. He wanted to be a trailblazer, but his eyes were bigger than his plate, if you will.
Yes, there has been successful trips that he's taken tourists down to the titanic and back. However, his track record isn't rock solid. His original design wasn't rated for the depths he was going. It wasn't until a whistleblower came out (which he retaliated against by firing btw) that the submersible porthole was redesigned. Who knows if the "redesign" was actually rated for the depths he was travelling. All we know is that he "replaced" it.
This is the same person that said safety regulations stifle innovation. Yeah, regulations might slow down innovation but you know... they're intended to keep people alive. The Titan wasn't certified by any governing body to travel to the depths it was going.
He didn't fully disclose to his travelers what they were getting themselves into. People say they had to sign a waiver. There's a waiver I got to sign to a eat spicy chicken sandwich at a local restaurant joint. I got to sign a waiver to park my car in a parking lot. You think 100% of people actually read them? It's just like software terms and conditions. Scroll to the bottom and accept.
The possibility that was haunting me was that the Titan might have surfaced but couldn’t communicate its location, so the passengers were just bobbing along, trapped and running out of oxygen, while searchers simply didn’t find them in time.
I guess the other nightmare would’ve been if the Titan got caught on something deep underwater and couldn’t surface or communicate even though the submersible was intact.
As it was, I assume/hope they didn’t know what was about to happen and didn’t suffer.
Pressure at those depths is terrifying, but at least there isn't any doubt of the outcome. Being lost with no evidence would be far harder on the families.
I heard they used equipment rated for 1000 meters at like 4000 meters, like the CEO was bragging about it and he was bragging safety is overrated and overdone etc. What an absolute shit show of a company.
Coast Guard says the debris field was "consistent with a catastrophic implosion of the vessel" and would have been picked up if it had happened after the search was underway.
I'm ngl, I'm kind of morbidly curious what, if any, remains are there when a sub at this depth implodes. Will there even be any bodies that are retrievable?
As sad and morbid it is to think about, there's probably not anything left other than a fine mist disbursed through the ocean.
I'm reminded of the one episode of Mythbusters where they tested an old school dive suit at depth with loss of pressure. Not the exact same situation, but consider they are MUCH deeper than this was. And in that test on the show, their human analogue looked like it got finely blended into a pile of mush inside the suit. The pressures that deep are no joke.
As another comparison, I'm sure someone with actual numbers could compare the PSI at the depth they went missing to what is put through from a hydraulic press and just go watch any video on the hydraulic press YT channel for comparison.
There are some videos online of Delta P and it's affects. Most are not NSFL, but it illustrate this better below is a video of a railroad tanker car that was drained of liquid but not vented:
That's at 1ATM maximum. At 13,000ft there 500ATM. A large delta P has no problem pulping just about anything given the chance for catastrophic failure.
My very brief searches into how pressure affects objects at depth tells me that any pockets of air inside a container (like a human body) would cause the container to implode.
Also he listened to experts in order for that to be possible instead of claiming that submarine classifications and regulation was "holding the industry back". Dude just wanted to go deep in the ocean, and he damn sure did it.
If you read the recent interviews, youd not think hes that crazy. Yes, he did take insane risks with his submarines and stuff, but he was sane enough to use them alone, aka not putting anyone else at risk.
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