In the Hamas/Israel war, why does Palestine have "hostages" but Israel has "prisoners"?
This occurred to me while listening to the news. When they exchange people it’s always hostages for people held in Palestine and prisoners for people held in Israel. Why is that? Is it just perception or is there a practical difference?
For everyone claiming I’m asking this in bad faith: Go fuck yourselves. This is a complicated situation and I’m trying to ask questions instead of making assumptions.
Lot of bad takes and sensationalism in this thread. The real difference is that one group (prisoners) were charged with crimes, and the others (hostages) weren't.
Whether those criminal charges are valid or not is another story, but that's why they're using different terms for each group, as they're not captive under the same pretense as the other.
Many Palestinian prisoners aren’t charged with crimes and have “secret evidence” held against them. Given Israel’s track record of lying and colonialist activity, I’ll leave you to decide if they actually do have that evidence. aljazeera.com/…/more-than-600-palestinians-held-b…
On top of that, the vast majority of the actual crimes are incredibly minor like rock throwing, and it doesn’t matter if you’re a child. The conditions and treatment in Israel prisons for Palestinians is incredibly grim as well.
There’s a thin vaneer of an unjust legal framework, and the aims of Israel aren’t as explicit to hold them for trade, but they’re a whole lot closer to being hostages than most people care to admit.
The hostage deal was negotiated by Qatar, the Hamas leadership is living in luxury in Qatar, Qatar is seeking to gain more influence in the future of Gaza.
Is this really the right moment to blindly trust the Qatar state owned news source with its reporting about a Qatar negotiated deal related to a conflict that Qatar has a vested interest in?
The hostage deal was negotiated by Qatar, the Hamas leadership is living in luxury in Qatar
You’re spelling out how they’re acting like a neutral party here.
Qatar is seeking to gain more influence in the future of Gaza.
It’s a destitute open air prison. Come on now.
Is this really the right moment to blindly trust the Qatar state owned news source with its reporting about a Qatar negotiated deal related to a conflict that Qatar has a vested interest in?
I don’t blindly trust their reporting. It was one search result. Most of the details on Israeli actions and policy come straight from Israeli sources like B’Tselem.
Is it not true? You could tell me that with something backing it instead of complaining about a reputable source.
You’re spelling out how they’re acting like a neutral party here.
Qatar is knowingly and willingly hosting the leadership of a terrorist organization that mass murders innocent civilians - both Israelis and Palestinians. Hamas leaders live in luxury in Qatar, they have billions of dollars stashed away.
That makes Qatar about as “neutral” about Hamas as the Taliban were “neutral” about al Qaeda.
It’s a destitute open air prison. Come on now.
You act like I’m debating that, or like I’m taking sides.
I’m not.
I’m just pointing out that a totalitarian regime - a regime that tolerates no dissent, that enforces strict religious laws, that suppresses women, that has the death penalty for homosexuality, that openly uses slave labor - isn’t some kind of neutral party if it has a vested interest in Gaza and has been openly supporting Hamas for decades.
Administrative detention constitutes a draconian violation of a person’s rights to liberty and due process. International humanitarian law permits this detention without trial only as an exceptional measure when there is a substantial security threat that cannot be otherwise avoided. But Israel’s use of this measure toward Palestinians is not exceptional at all; Israel holds hundreds of Palestinians from the West Bank in administrative detention for periods of months and even years. Furthermore, administrative detention orders are based on “classified material” such that the detainee has no way to refute the allegations against them. And the Israeli military can extend the period of administrative detention without limit. The infringement of rights of administrative detainees is exacerbated by the fact that many of them are held inside Israel, in blatant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention, which prohibits the transfer of inmates outside the occupied territory.
In what respect would the crime not matter if you’re a “child”? Minors frequently participate as attackers in Hamas attacks. If Israel didn’t apply punitive detention to anyone under 18, then every Hamas attacker would be under the age of 18.
Please tell me you think it’s justified to hold a child in prison for years for throwing a rock at a tank. Oh, or maybe they illegally walked on the wrong side of the road in the west bank. I really want to hear this.
I think the children should be made Israeli while being held, if caught engaging in open combat with Israel’s. 3 year sentence of “live as an Israeli citizen.”
Show them who they’re fighting and they’ll stop fighting.
Palestinians who are held without trial are held in administrative detention, that’s usually done if the person poses an immediate danger, but the evidence isn’t up to the legal standard (a judge still has to approve the arrest). It’s also used against Jewish citizens (though admittedly much less. IIRC there are two Jews held in administrative detention right now).
Absolutely none of the Palestinians held in administrative detention are about to be set free, and they aren’t regarded as “standard” prisoners (they are always referred as “administrative detainees”, never “prisoners”).
The question was about why are Palestinians in Israel are called “prisoners” and Israelis in Gaza are “hostages”, in the context of the people exchanged during the truce. The person I replied to said some “prisoners” in Israel are held without trial, to which I replied they are not called “prisoners”, and are not part of the exchange.
So… could you explain the point you’re trying to make? If that’s just some general point about Israel treating Palestinians unjustly, that’s fine (I actually agree with you to some extent), but I don’t see how that has to do with the difference between two specific groups of Palestinians and Israelis.
Well your comment is a blatant lie for starters. Many Palestinian hostages who were kidnapped without any evidence or charges were released today as part of the deal. Care to address that?
That’s right, and a lot of people don’t know about how many Palestinians are being held indefinitely without charge in Israeli prisons. Oftentimes they are children who have been subjected to torture. And this is not something that started on October 7th, although the number of detainees has risen since then, including in the West Bank. It’s very difficult to make a case for the 2 am raids to take hostages prisoners in the West Bank when WB doesn’t have a Hamas government. As is often the case, the oppressors just make up laws and systems to catalyze oppression within a legal farce. Of course the truth is that Israel is commiting genocide of Palestinians in order to steal their land, but the vaneer is getting so thin that it’s making international law and the Geneva conventions a joke.
This isn’t the reason, it doesn’t matter if Hamas accuses them or not.
They’re considered hostages because Hamas wants to release them in exchange for something.
Israel imprisons Palestinian as a punishment or to achieve specific goals that are not met by releasing them (like preventing political prisoners from engaging with society).
I don’t think either term is morally superior to the other, but they do have some different connotations…
Is this trolling? The hostages are civilians (babies, old people etc, women etc). The Palestinians are getting combatants who were arrested for other attacks by and large.
I know Israeli supporters are going to bristle at the source, but the list of “combatants” include 17 minors and women.
The list [possible future releases] of 300 comprises 33 women. The majority of the rest of the names are of boys aged 16-18. However, there are also boys as young as 14 on the list.
Prisoners have been convicted of crimes including carrying and manufacturing knives and daggers. Other common offences detailed in Israel’s list include:
*threatening security *illegally entering Israel without a permit *throwing stones *supporting terrorism *associating with hostile/unknown organisations.
Also noted about minors detained by Israel:
“The main alleged crime for these detentions is stone-throwing, which can carry a 20-year sentence in prison for Palestinian children,” said a report published in July by children’s rights organisation, Save the Children.
Is there really any true justice in an apartheid State?
BUT THE HECKING WOMEN. NOOOOOOO ISRAEL IS LITERALLY ISIS!!!1! Those Israeli “hostages” taken by Hamas are all undercover soldiers apprehended by the FREEDOM FIGHTERS bravely RESISTING against the NAZI KKK Israel.
First, “was accused by Israel of stabbing several Israelis” is more accurate. And we know Israel lies. Can you really believe it? Why are they releasing her if she is such a dangerous criminal? It is an apartheid state, there isn’t really true justice there.
Second, according to my sources, the Israelis that were stabbed were occupiers. I have very little compassion for people who steal people’s land, especially oppressed people’s land, to use as their own.
I don’t understand what minors and women has to do with it. Only adult men (where adult just means >18yo) can be terrorists? The other points might be valid (or not), but just saying “there are minors and women” means nothing.
Hi, Israeli here. You didn’t really point out any misinformation, the linked article just gives some (IMO wrong and even misleading) context.
The majority of the rest of the names are of boys aged 16-18. However, there are also boys as young as 14 on the list.
The 14 year old kid was charged for hostile sabotage activity, gathering or association, attacking a police officer under serious circumstances, throwing stones, negligence and general recklessness, maliciously or negligently causing damage to property, arson on nationalistic grounds, weapons/ammunition/explosives. Also, it’s worth noting his trial was ongoing.
Prisoners have been convicted of crimes including carrying and manufacturing knives and daggers. Other common offenses detailed in Israel’s list include […]
Ehh… technically true, but very misleading. Usually, there are a few charges, some more serious than others. The 14yo kid could be described as “charged with negligence and general recklessness”, but that wouldn’t be the whole picture. Here’s a link to a list of 300 prisoners due to be released. It’s in Hebrew, but copy-pasting into google translate is good enough to understand the charges:
In the first page, there are 2 prisoners charged with carrying and manufacturing knives and daggers. Both are also charged with attempted murder (one is 17 years old, btw).
And regarding “associating with hostile/unknown organisations”, from what I could tell, this means that the prisoner was charged with being affiliated with Hamas. Hamas is considered a terrorist group in the US, UK, Canada and Australia (Not to mention they massacred more than 1,000 citizens). So this might be my Israeli bias speaking, but… what’s unreasonable with throwing them to prison? Would being affiliated with ISIS or Al-Qaeda not carry a prison sentence?
“The main alleged crime for these detentions is stone-throwing, which can carry a 20-year sentence in prison for Palestinian children,” said a report published in July by children’s rights organisation, Save the Children.
Yes, “can carry”. A 20 year sentence is only applicable if the rocks were thrown at a moving vehicle with intent to cause harm. without proving intent, the sentence is 10 years. Children are not explicitly mentioned (though the reality is that most rock throwers are minors). In practice, the courts try to avoid sentencing minors who are charged mainly with rock throwing to prison, and even when they are sentenced to prison it’s for a few months.
The misinformation is calling all the released Palestinians combatants. That seems like the Israeli’s talking point here, which is a fabrication.
Yes, all of these people are charged by the Israeli state, an apartheid state oppressing the Palestinian people. They can make up whatever charges they want. Who believes them?
What is it with Israeli’s and the justifications for killing and imprisoning Palestinian minors? It seems like there is some ulterior motive for removing the younger generation from those lands.
You’re right, calling all the released prisoners “Palestinians combatants” would be wrong. Can you please point me to a source calling them that? I only saw something similar in far right Israeli news sites, who call them “terrorists” (all other sites call them “prisoners”).
Yes, all of these people are charged by the Israeli state, an apartheid state oppressing the Palestinian people. They can make up whatever charges they want. Who believes them?
If we assume a state-wide conspiracy, any state can make up whatever charges it wants. There’s no real way to prove that’s wrong. However, there are a few indicators I can think of - what’s the democracy index of said state? is that state’s judiciary system regarded internationally as being generally good? Do other democratic states believe said state? Has said state been caught in many lies regarding its judiciary system?
Going by these indicators, Israel’s status is at least OK. Not perfect, and if you’d like I can point out quite a few issues, especially regarding the treatment of Palestinians, but they do not “make up” charges as a general modus operandi.
The op in this thread said: “The Palestinians are getting combatants who were arrested for other attacks by and large.” That is obviously misinformation. That is what I was responding to.
Is there an index for which apartheid states are better than others? That seems like an interesting index.
The op in this thread said: “The Palestinians are getting combatants who were arrested for other attacks by and large."
Right, but you said “The misinformation is calling all the released Palestinians combatants. That seems like the Israeli’s talking point here, which is a fabrication.” I have no reason to assume OP is Israeli. But even if he is, he isn’t representative of most Israeli sources (to the best of my knowledge).
Is there an index for which apartheid states are better than others? That seems like an interesting index.
I was referring to the The Economist Democracy Index. As of 2022, Israel is in the high end of flawed democracies (between Portugal and the US). Not saying that’s the end-all-be-all of democratic Indices, but it is the most widely known and commonly used, so it’s a good rule of thumb.
It’s also a good discussion of how propaganda works. I mean, we continually see how Israel lies, now we’re seeing the misinformation campaign about all the “combatants” being released that are actually teenage boys, many of whom were captured for throwing rocks and may face 20 years in prison for it.
That’s great no? People are waking up to the propaganda. Seeing the reality of how our governments spin everything to justify whatever military objective they want to achieve.
Ukraine? Defending against colonizing oppressors is their plight in any way possible and they are heroes!
Israel? The colonizing oppressors are now the defenders! Defending against colonization and oppression is wrong and you’re not to allow to kill a single person ever!
In my experience, people I interact with personally aren’t citing Hamas propaganda as if it were fact, they give it the appropriate level of skepticism. They don’t do that with IDF press releases or propaganda from the Israeli government so it is worth pointing out that all governments and affiliated news outlets put out biased reporting during war time.
Also, as a US taxpayer, my money is funding bombs being dropped on Gaza, they didn’t fund Hamas’ improvised rockets. Those were cobbled together using material stolen from the people of Gaza. As a result, I expect honest accountability of how those weapons are used.
As I said in the other comment, not falling for one sides propaganda doesn’t automatically mean the other side is right. What we have on social media is propaganda for a supposed Palestinian side, but overwhelmingly it’s Hamas’ talking points, which are clearly anti Israel, but lacking in the “pro Palestinian” cause.
And you may say “ok, well, that’s war; soldiers and their equipment are fair game” and that’s fair, but if you attack enemy soldiers that makes you a soldier, whatever your age might be.
So the IDF can either capture and imprison these people, or they can shoot them. Sometimes they do - the prisoners held by IDF are the ones they didn’t.
Being a soldier on someone’s else’s land is highly illegal they have no business being in the west bank whatsoever but expanding their illegal colonies
The IDF are a colonial occupying army. I think the Palestinians are responding to them the way the entire rest of the planet would.
Theyre neither colonial nor occupying. They’re invading in response to a foreign government massacring their people. The reason for the massacre was to force Israel to respond and thus damage Israel’s normalization of diplomacy with Saudi Arabia.
Hamas isn’t fighting off colonial oppressors. They are engaging in politically motivated terror strikes designed to weaken the standing of a people they want to exterminate, at the intentional cost of the lives of their civilians.
This is the way history books will describe this war - not the propaganda you find comforting.
I’ve seen this posted elsewhere, and while it’s a valid thing to talk about it distracts from the bigger issues
Others here have explained the difference between someone who’s taken as a prisoner (they are being held because of something they allegedly did) and someone who’s taken hostage (someone who’s held as security for some other purpose). From what I can tell, even Hamas isn’t saying the hostages are guilty of anything. It seems like those involved in the situation agree that the terminology is appropriate.
The more important discussion imo are:
Whether the charges against the prisoners are appropriate, or if there’s a history of charges, arrests, and detention without justification or evidence. I think this is the point people are trying to make when they bring up hostages vs. prisoners, but if you aren’t specific about it you end up going in circles and arguing about the wrong thing.
Whether those are being held (both hostages and prisoners) are being treated with respect and dignity. If their needs are being met and if they are being tortured / otherwise suffering unjustly.
There is also some more important discussion around terminology, such as one group being called “women” (implies humanity) and another “females” (more formal, scientific, and a term that’s also used for animals).
Gunna go with probably not legit charges seeing as how they arrested about 10,000 civilian Palestinians in Palestine. Notably they were in their own country so it is by definition hostage taking given the laws of Israel so not apply in Palestine and they have no extradition agreement in fact they have the exact opposite.
If someone from the US was taken from the US and put in prison in Israel for a crime in Israel without permission to extradite the other country would be accused of unlawful imprisonment and unlawful extradition. Would anyone like to guess the charge that a country taking a hostage would be accused of?
This sounds like a really idiotic bad faith question.
Hostages are used as meat shields and can be executed at any time, and typically innocent of any crime.
Prisoners are found guilty of a crime by a court system and then safely put away, since they have still rights.
I hate the fact that people who are trying to obtain information about the war are met with condescending answers like this. Attempts at gaining knowledge and learning should be motivated, not insulted.
This isn't just about the war but just very basic language and definitions of those terms. You could've literally just searched for "prisoner definition" and "hostage definition". Literally less than a minute of work if that somehow was unclear in t he first place. Bad faith questions like his are very common disinformation tactics to paint a false equivalence in order to push certain narratives.
“In administrative detention, a person is held without trial without having committed an offense, on the grounds that he or she plans to break the law in the future. As this measure is supposed to be preventive, it has no time limit. The person is detained without legal proceedings, by order of the regional military commander, based on classified evidence that is not revealed to them. This leaves the detainees helpless – facing unknown allegations with no way to disprove them, not knowing when they will be released, and without being charged, tried or convicted.”
There are three possible definitions I could think of.
One is the judicial one many have brought up already:
Hamas just kidnapped random people
Israel took prisoners and charged them with criminal offenses
Another is the geopolitical one:
Israel is a state, so it takes official prisoners. Even if those.were wrongly convicted or innocent people,.they'd still be prisoners of war
Hamas is not a state, it's a gaggle of shitheads. Shitheads can't take prisoners as they have no jurisdiction. So their captives are hostages.
The last one would be the motive:
Hamas holds those people with the motive to trade them off to Israel for some gain or otherwise use them as bargaining chip. Israel has taken those people with the opposite goal: Imprison them/punish them for their crimes
Because they never agreed to the UN partition plan.
I kid of course. If you’re really interested I suggest taking your time to read up on the history of the Ottoman empire post 1800 and then the yishuv and that would lead you to understand the current shituation
Well, Palestinians didn't take hostages. They mostly tried to survive under an oppressive Terror Regime while the government that claims to own the land did nothing but feed on their misery for political gains. They are victims.
Hamas established said terror Regime and then unleashed their hatred on innocents inside and outside of their domain.
True. Al Jazeera is a Qatari state run media enterprise. They’re pretty reliable on news on things outside the Middle East, but tend to have a massive bias when it comes to matters of Qatar’s interests.
Right…. “massive bias” especially when they have reporters on the ground, risking their lives and other “news” agency have been drinking their updates from the IDF/Israeli firehose.
Al Jazeera also had its reporter shot by Israel (big surprise) last year for covering the Al Aqsa raids. They have also covered reporters from other news agencies getting shot by Israel in this genocide… err “war”. They are calling out Israel’s actions for what they are and this whole “massive bias because Qatari” is just straight up bullshit.
Yes, they are run by Qatar, but that doesn’t mean they haven’t won accolades in top tier neutral reporting. I’m defending them because we need that style of reporting more and less of what the likes of WSJ have become.
Because one side went into homes and kidnapped kids and mothers and dragged them back to Gaza after being gang raped. The other arrested people actually committing crimes. What is with people trying to “not make assumptions” about a terror group?
The people trying to go around claiming that Hamas just defending themselves from colonizers are no better than Sandy Hook deniers and claiming crisis actors lol.
The other side is always gang-raping and performing other dehumanizing acts that valiantly allow you to act in good conscience. This occurs on all sides. You are the humane and just one, the other side are barbaric animals, to be eradicated.
This is clearly a rhetorical question, OP just wants people to repeat back to them things they already agree with instead of real answers. I may despise Israel’s cruel treatment of West Bank Palestinians as much as the next guy, but at least the prisoners have (albeit only very slightly) better conditions than hostages whose lives could be immediately ended on a whim without due process if it pleases their captors. And many of the hostages aren’t even Israeli. And the prisoners were processed and convicted of a (if trumped-up) crime.
It’s the purpose of taking someone captive. Hostage mean it will be used to trade for other stuff.
In normal sense prisoner is taken because they violated the group/country rule and is mean to isolate them from the rest of the group. Under draconian administration they’re taken because whoever the one ruling just want to get rid of them.
Hamas take hostage to trade for the prisoner taken by Israel.
Prisoners are used to trade for “other stuff” as well, you know. Prisoners of War aren’t only soldiers, and they’re even held after a war ends to be used as trade.
i think prisoner of war is entirely different category and can be taken for multiple reason, including but not limited to trading for other prisoners of war held by enemy, isolate them from the rest of the combatant, extract intel, so on and so forth. Hostage is very specifically meant for trading, while prisoner is meant to punish and isolate from the rest of the group.
Hostages are victims. Prisoners are criminals. Calling a Palestinian a hostage makes you an anti-semite. Calling an Israeli a prisoner makes you an anti-semite. Being an anti-semite impacts profits. Hence the chips fall where they must.
I mean, we did nuke ourselves. multiple times over. we get our hands on an interstellar drive thingamadohickey and the first thing we’ll probably do with it, is turn it into a giant fucking kinetic-kill missile on an intersect course for wherever the fuck it came from. “return to sender”, with a gold record on it, just in case they wanna listen to ‘what a wonderful world’.
Edit: if the 107 nukes going off (only two were combat, the rest were tests) weren’t enough of a warning… keep in mind we’ve been pumping radio and television broadcasts for… decades. I mean, between Jerry Springer, Jackass and televangelists… y’know?
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